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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2265
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Posted - 2013.04.02 10:39:00 -
[61] - Quote
Any tool which automates gameplay for you is currently considered against the rules. If you see what you suspect to be a market bot, please report it. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
209
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Posted - 2013.04.02 14:07:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:Any tool which automates gameplay for you is currently considered against the rules. If you see what you suspect to be a market bot, please report it.
I know a guy (in fact I know many, so does CCP) who uses a macro to automate 30 mining bots at one time and so do you. You still ain't banned him and infact when mittens trolled him you actually took action to support and protect his botting. oh wait duplication is not automation? Then the majority of market tools are not automating mearly duplicating data supplied by CCP via market API.
Why provide barges massive HP if not to protect bots? How come you let lottery sites operate which are completely automated? Which tools specificaly are against the rules? Is a tool which alerts me that my order is no longer best price and then provides me with a figure to copy and paste into eve, legal?
None of these questions will be answered as CCP prefers grey areas when it comes to non RMT related botting. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
199
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Posted - 2013.04.02 20:29:00 -
[63] - Quote
Deleted a rule breaking post. Please do not break the forum rules when posting.
21. Posting regarding RMT (Real Money Trading) is prohibited.
Posts discussing, linking to, or advertising RMT, including but not limited to the sale of in game items, assets, currency, characters or game accounts for real life money are strictly prohibited.
22. Post constructively.
Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.
30. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.
CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, GÇ£outingGÇ¥ of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties.
Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts.
ISD Ezwal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
210
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Posted - 2013.04.02 20:37:00 -
[64] - Quote
Since my last post was deleted for being a ''hard'' question I'll ask it again.
CCP Eterne,
1) Is a market tool which provides a copy and paste ready value to a market order via the EVE market API outside of client ELUA legal?
2) If said tool is not legal why are lottery sties which are fully automated ''botted'' allowed to exist?
3) Are tools which allow duplication of actions such as mining bots used by infamous eve players EULA legal?
4) Is CCP finally willing to publicly admit that botting in eve is fully legal as long as it remains in sensible bounds, is not RMT related and is not purposefully controlling the price of PLEX?
I ask the hard questions unlike all the CSM candidates. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Lux Imperator
Soimii Patriei Nulli Secunda
47
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Posted - 2013.04.02 20:41:00 -
[65] - Quote
Check against mining and trade bots :
Random pop-up box that requests you to answer a quick random math question e.g 2+5 ? For trade, it appears only after multiple price updates within a given time frame. (I don't think that it should check for 0.01 ISK price changes because they can just modify the bots to do 0.02 ISk or something like that)
Mining bot : Each 20-30 minutes same box same thing.
The check can be skipped once and not answered within a maximum of 5 minutes (to not screw with miners in case they are attacked or something)
In 5 minutes the box can even disappear and no one is kicked from the game. That player is flagged for botting. Correlate this with some more infractions like this one and reporting from other players. CCP within one month can have a very big list of people automating the game.
Enjoy |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2266
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Posted - 2013.04.02 21:34:00 -
[66] - Quote
I have deleted a post discussing forum moderation that also contained rumor mongering. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Oki Troom
The Dissolute
1
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Posted - 2013.04.03 01:03:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:I have deleted a post discussing forum moderation that also contained rumor mongering.
DEATH TO THE RUMOR MONGERS! |
Oki Troom
The Dissolute
1
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Posted - 2013.04.03 01:13:00 -
[68] - Quote
joyous the wrote:Oki Troom wrote:joyous the wrote:There's a few hardcore traders in Dodi, because it is, actually a pretty lucrative market if you have market dominance. You are a less productive trader competing against constant updaters. Many markets in Dodi aren't updated frequently outside of a few, which makes for the avid traders within to quickly cycle though their orders and efficiently update, since most wont require an update/ or a minimal scroll-wheel flick.
You've laid out why you're not good enough for this market. Deal with the facts. You'll know a bot when you see it, and you're still lookin.
"not saying its not possible to make money Station Trading, I am just saying that if something isn't done about the trading bots - it soon will be. Anyone who has been trading for any period of time will tell you that bots are getting worse."
-It'd hold a bit more clout if you're a notable Jita trader saying this, not a guy being outplayed in #3.
Not sure what you are contributing to the discussion here other than, you're not in Jita and so are not l33t enough to have an opinion. Thanks for your input... No, as someone who trades in Dodi, I'm giving you reasons why the people outbidding you are most likely not bots. And I'm saying you, a trader who can't compete in Dodi, claiming soon noone will be able to make money on the market is simply wrong and dumb.
Did you even read my post? Your response is full ******... |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
90
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Posted - 2013.04.03 06:07:00 -
[69] - Quote
I have tried getting some focus on some actual practical solutions to the myth of bots.
As mentioned a lot in this thread and for many years now the population in Jita is what makes the bot problem myth persist. The frequency of trade is simply so high that people get the feeling its impossible to enter markets.
At the present we have very little good incentives to move off hub. I think its about time that MD, CSM and CCP took a closer look at ways to make this a more viable solution and also consider all the benefits from this.
First we need to talk about what limits players from moving out of hubs. The first one would be the obvious isk benefit.
I would suggest looking at broker fees and order limits.
If the base fee for adding orders was dynamically priced so smaller stacks became less and less profitable, then we would see a more efficient market and movement to seed outside hubs by smaller scaled traders. This would only be on sales, so it would really not be gamebreaking, and it would motive more market efficiency and saturation.
I would also suggest boosting the number of possible outstanding orders per skill, so a broader location based seeding would become a viable strategy for the tycoon traders. It would benefit the gameplay if there were more stacks of 5 ships in more stations, and less stacks of 100 getting 0.01 microbid.
The cost of putting up orders should scale to motivate the biggest stacks, and be modified by skill.
Modify order should be cost based on the station activity and thus be the base broker fee. Again this should increase on a mechanic similar to rental of offices, so it goes up in increments the higher the traded volume or total traded isk on the station.
Until something like this is introduced the discussion of market barrier of entry and botting myths will persist. I would hope CCP would seriously start considering a change so space and markets could be spread better.
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Kara Books
Deal with IT.
478
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Posted - 2013.04.03 06:24:00 -
[70] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:I have tried getting some focus on some actual practical solutions to the myth of bots.
As mentioned a lot in this thread and for many years now the population in Jita is what makes the bot problem myth persist. The frequency of trade is simply so high that people get the feeling its impossible to enter markets.
At the present we have very little good incentives to move off hub. I think its about time that MD, CSM and CCP took a closer look at ways to make this a more viable solution and also consider all the benefits from this.
First we need to talk about what limits players from moving out of hubs. The first one would be the obvious isk benefit.
I would suggest looking at broker fees and order limits.
If the base fee for adding orders was dynamically priced so smaller stacks became less and less profitable, then we would see a more efficient market and movement to seed outside hubs by smaller scaled traders. This would only be on sales, so it would really not be gamebreaking, and it would motive more market efficiency and saturation.
I would also suggest boosting the number of possible outstanding orders per skill, so a broader location based seeding would become a viable strategy for the tycoon traders. It would benefit the gameplay if there were more stacks of 5 ships in more stations, and less stacks of 100 getting 0.01 microbid.
The cost of putting up orders should scale to motivate the biggest stacks, and be modified by skill.
Modify order should be cost based on the station activity and thus be the base broker fee. Again this should increase on a mechanic similar to rental of offices, so it goes up in increments the higher the traded volume or total traded isk on the station.
Until something like this is introduced the discussion of market barrier of entry and botting myths will persist. I would hope CCP would seriously start considering a change so space and markets could be spread better.
These idea's... they are great. Population would simply have nothing to complain about and Jita overload would be fixed. There is only 1 thing that I can think against, gank squads will lose out on many many destroyed excess goods created ingame by players, because lets face it, the current economy almost counts on these goods being destroyed, although Im sure they will adapt along with every one else.
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0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
34
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Posted - 2013.04.03 08:56:00 -
[71] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:Any tool which automates gameplay for you is currently considered against the rules. If you see what you suspect to be a market bot, please report it.
Hard Question was Hard. I'll ask it again with out breaking any forum rules.
A) Is a market tool that provides warning outside of eve of outdated market orders via API and provides a copy and pastable value to be entered manually into eve EULA legal?
B) Are tools which allow duplication of commands such as those used by infamous multi boxers EULA legal?
C) Does CCP have any plans to implement bans on botting and macro's which duplicate actions across multiple accounts that are not RMT related?
D) If automation is against EULA why are lottery sites allowed to operate with complete automation while trading in EVE ISK? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
170
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Posted - 2013.04.03 09:24:00 -
[72] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:CCP Eterne wrote:Any tool which automates gameplay for you is currently considered against the rules. If you see what you suspect to be a market bot, please report it. Hard Question was Hard. I'll ask it again with out breaking any forum rules. A) Is a market tool that provides warning outside of eve of outdated market orders via API and provides a copy and pastable value to be entered manually into eve EULA legal? B) Are tools which allow duplication of commands such as those used by infamous multi boxers EULA legal? C) Does CCP have any plans to implement bans on botting and macro's which duplicate actions across multiple accounts that are not RMT related? D) If automation is against EULA why are lottery sites allowed to operate with complete automation while trading in EVE ISK? As you can't really expect average CCP employees to be well informed about their product, you are really asking the wrong person.
I'll give you what assistance I can, as a nerd who spends more time with the product than an average CCP employee.
A) That is EULA legal. However, it's pushing the envelope and probably shouldn't be EULA legal. CCP reserves the right to change it's mind on EULA legality at whim, so it's entirely possible that they may change their stance on this one in the future and there is some justification and some public support for that.
B) That is EULA legal. ISboxer and other broadcast tools have been specificially confirmed as EULA legal by CCP in recent forum posts. CCP reserves the right to change it's mind on EULA legality at whim, so it's entirely possible that they may change their stance on this one in the future and there is some justification and some public support for that.
C) That is already banned. Broadcasting human keypresses is EULA legal, broadcasting macro or code-generated keypresses is EULA illegal. It does not need to involve RMT for it to be EULA illegal, but if it does involve RMT it is still EULA illegal.
D) Lottery sites automate the capture of wallet transactions via the API. That is fully EULA legal and actively encouraged by CCP. The isk that is sent back to your wallet cannot be done with the API (at this time) and has to be manually transacted by a human in order for it not to be EULA illegal. Generally this is done manually but it is possible that some lottery and other services have decided to cross the EULA on this aspect and fully automate that process too. If they were to do so that would also be EULA illegal. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
170
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 09:31:00 -
[73] - Quote
I could get you citations from CCP or quote and rules-lawyer the EULA text at you to support what I've said above, but I don't think that is really needed. If you are really interested in the subject you should probably read the EULA and spend a little time with a search engine to get yourself fully informed. If you are just asking idle questions then you may want to just accept my answers as reasonably accurate and leave it at that. If you are asking the questions to poke at CCP, then I suggest you get a longer stick. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1259
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 09:31:00 -
[74] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal
bzzt, wrong.
Putting the right price in your clipboard? legit. it's not touching the client.
Opening the wallet order, that's client manipulation, not legit. There's no IGB function to do this, so you'd have to have the software manipulate eve directly. And that in no way is legit. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 09:35:00 -
[75] - Quote
Agreed with Mr Ronuken..
Elinor etc provide copy paste options outside the game, which you then have to find the correct order in your wallet for, open the modify, and paste it in.... (IMO Elinor is mostly for people who need to check whether they are making a profit, as it tracks margins for you, and less for keeping on top of orders, unless of course you have 305 station orders you are trying to follow constantly)
It is a whole other story if they open up the correct wallet order for modification for you. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
170
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Posted - 2013.04.03 09:38:00 -
[76] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal bzzt, wrong. Putting the right price in your clipboard? legit. it's not touching the client. Opening the wallet order, that's client manipulation, not legit. There's no IGB function to do this, so you'd have to have the software manipulate eve directly. And that in no way is legit. You might want to consider not feeding the Brewlar. It may only seem like an unwanted scrap from your table at this point, but keep feeding him and soom he'll be on the table and licking your face. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1259
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 13:19:00 -
[77] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal bzzt, wrong. Putting the right price in your clipboard? legit. it's not touching the client. Opening the wallet order, that's client manipulation, not legit. There's no IGB function to do this, so you'd have to have the software manipulate eve directly. And that in no way is legit. You might want to consider not feeding the Brewlar. It may only seem like an unwanted scrap from your table at this point, but keep feeding him and soom he'll be on the table and licking your face.
You're right.
It's just: https://sslimgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
Oh, and making sure someone doesn't get sucked in by the mistake and banned. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
35
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Posted - 2013.04.03 14:07:00 -
[78] - Quote
Cool good to know that my ISK tool is EULA legal as long as I do all automation outside of the client and then just hit click ok click ok to rifle through my orders. |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
36
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Posted - 2013.04.03 15:05:00 -
[79] - Quote
Market API features should be scrapped, I know most won't want that but currently the way things are its way to easy to abuse using macros...
Also people should move away from Jita and Amarr etc. Buy stuff in Jita and move it somewhere, seriously its a lot less hassle and much more rewarding, you just have to take the risk of hauling it! That's the point for risk there is reward. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
170
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Posted - 2013.04.03 15:25:00 -
[80] - Quote
The 'missus quotes that one to me frequently.
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Amanda Hug'n'Kiss
Aggressive Marketing
0
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Posted - 2013.04.03 15:43:00 -
[81] - Quote
Firstly, I am not a station trader and I have very little to do with Jita.
I also believe that market bots have been increasing as I see some very strange behavior on the markets and not just how quickly orders get adjusted.
I would like to think that CCP care enough about it's customers that they would want to stop the cheats and provide a fair game. Unfortunately I'm not sure that is true given the EVE University player who got banned for botting. Surely it would be easy to detect players who alter an inhuman amount of orders per minute. This bloke did it for several years and amount 100's of billions before he was detected.
I also agree that Market API features should be scrapped. If your competitors are using Market API features then to compete you need to learn how too. So add API features/3rd party apps to the learning curve for a new player wants to play the market.
Stop allowing the market to be automated, leave it as human vs human. Let intelligence, understanding, intuition and bravery to put your ISK on the line be what decides your profit/lose not how well you can code bots, cache scrappers or API facilities. |
0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2013.04.03 20:33:00 -
[82] - Quote
Amanda Hug'n'Kiss wrote:
I would like to think that CCP care enough about it's customers that they would want to stop the cheats and provide a fair game. Unfortunately I'm not sure that is true given the EVE University player who got banned for botting. Surely it would be easy to detect players who alter an inhuman amount of orders per minute. This bloke did it for several years and amount 100's of billions before he was detected.
Wrong the EVE uni player was banned for RMT. He was providing ISK via botting to other players which CCP took real offence too. I'm positive CCP could easily know that he was botting before but they simply do not care enough to even look. CCP has still not taken any action to detect botting with client end software detection or a VAC style program. CCP will however act when RMT is involved and they do have procedures to detect this and will simply insta ban anyone selling ISK they catch as it detracts from PLEX sales.
Make no mistake the dude was banned for RMT and not botting. As it stands botting is not even bannable unless you ignore at least 3 specific warnings and even then you'll more than likely get a time ban. Sell 1 isk for 1 cent and you'll get banned. |
Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
6
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Posted - 2013.04.03 20:43:00 -
[83] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Wrong the EVE uni player was banned for RMT. He was providing ISK via botting to other players which CCP took real offence too. I'm positive CCP could easily know that he was botting before but they simply do not care enough to even look. CCP has still not taken any action to detect botting with client end software detection or a VAC style program. CCP will however act when RMT is involved and they do have procedures to detect this and will simply insta ban anyone selling ISK they catch as it detracts from PLEX sales.
Make no mistake the dude was banned for RMT and not botting. As it stands botting is not even bannable unless you ignore at least 3 specific warnings and even then you'll more than likely get a time ban. Sell 1 isk for 1 cent and you'll get banned.
He was banned, but got to keep his iskies (whether due to oversight or not),after his ban he donated the iskies to Eve Uni, then CCP caught up with the removal of assets, and removed the assets from Eve-Uni, leading to much forum hilarity/raging
So, he was banned first, but didnt lose the isk
(Banned for, in Eve Unis words "... using the common tools available, as well as custom built tools, but never automating anything to do with the EVE client himself - the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time. ...")
CCPs Response: "1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute. 2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business." |
0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2013.04.03 20:48:00 -
[84] - Quote
See this worries me if automation outside the client is bannable, are trade tools which provide figures for people to insert rapidly into market orders considered botting? Also if this is the case then when are all these lottery runners getting banned and all their isk seized? |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
95
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Posted - 2013.04.03 20:54:00 -
[85] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:See this worries me if automation outside the client is bannable, are trade tools which provide figures for people to insert rapidly into market orders considered botting? Also if this is the case then when are all these lottery runners getting banned and all their isk seized?
CCP have already made it clear that anything that directly influence and change timesinks ingame is considered botting or automation and is not accepted.
How hard they will enforce this is anyones guess. Looking back to unholy rage I think they will be pretty strict ones they decide their policy and resulting actions.
I think a rather clear NULL TOLERANCE POLICY would be nice to get from CSM and CCP discussion, so we can have a clear detailed description of legality directly using examples from ingame history and current mechanics.
Basically using EVE history to show precedence cases and thus show the interpretation of the "LAW"
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0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2013.04.04 05:57:00 -
[86] - Quote
Unholy rage was an Anti-RMT campaign dressed up as an anti bot campaign and had nothing to do with directly targetting botting. The fact that RMT'rs use botting is just a coincidence. If you think anyone was perma banned in unholy rage for botting you are mistaken, each person banned in unholy rage was involved with RMT never forget that fact. |
Amanda Hug'n'Kiss
Aggressive Marketing
0
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Posted - 2013.04.04 09:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:Amanda Hug'n'Kiss wrote:
I would like to think that CCP care enough about it's customers that they would want to stop the cheats and provide a fair game. Unfortunately I'm not sure that is true given the EVE University player who got banned for botting. Surely it would be easy to detect players who alter an inhuman amount of orders per minute. This bloke did it for several years and amount 100's of billions before he was detected.
Wrong the EVE uni player was banned for RMT. He was providing ISK via botting to other players which CCP took real offence too. I'm positive CCP could easily know that he was botting before but they simply do not care enough to even look. CCP has still not taken any action to detect botting with client end software detection or a VAC style program. CCP will however act when RMT is involved and they do have procedures to detect this and will simply insta ban anyone selling ISK they catch as it detracts from PLEX sales. Make no mistake the dude was banned for RMT and not botting. As it stands botting is not even bannable unless you ignore at least 3 specific warnings and even then you'll more than likely get a time ban. Sell 1 isk for 1 cent and you'll get banned.
Well that's really sad (if true). Cheat the players, that's fine. Cheat the company, meet the ban hammer. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
96
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Posted - 2013.04.04 10:15:00 -
[88] - Quote
I am sure the 3 strikes is basically to avoid a lot of wasted issues with mistakes.
Starting a dialogue with warnings is a lot more effective on ccp time.
Also some might test tools or let themselves be lured into trying bots and automation. I think its perfectly good business sense to point out the practice is unacceptable and maybe save an income and potentially honest and good future player and ofc customer.
Just blatantly assuming greed and bias from ccp is very simplistic thinking.
What about exploits.. If exploiters gets warnings, why should botters not?
Justice and Rules always needs leniency.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
173
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Posted - 2013.04.04 10:33:00 -
[89] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Just blatantly assuming greed and bias from ccp is very simplistic thinking. Indeed.
You can choose to assign evil designs and dark conspiracies to CCP if you wish, but the fact is they are a bunch of drunks in Iceland that create games for the enjoyment of others and need to earn money from that activity in order to remain drunk.
I for one identify with and fully approve of that. |
0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
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Posted - 2013.04.05 10:58:00 -
[90] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:I am sure the 3 strikes is basically to avoid a lot of wasted issues with mistakes.
Starting a dialogue with warnings is a lot more effective on ccp time.
Also some might test tools or let themselves be lured into trying bots and automation. I think its perfectly good business sense to point out the practice is unacceptable and maybe save an income and potentially honest and good future player and ofc customer.
Just blatantly assuming greed and bias from ccp is very simplistic thinking.
What about exploits.. If exploiters gets warnings, why should botters not?
Justice and Rules always needs leniency.
Why is there no 3 strikes for RMT if that is the case? The answer is blatant greed on CCP's part. ''If it does not effect our profits then it's not a problem.''
War Dec dogging? Not a problem as bears provide profit.
Massive Barge HP to the point that some barges are actually viable for PVP, not a problem as bots and afkers provide profit.
RMT= massive problem as slight profit loss. |
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