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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Oki Troom
Lucky Strike Ventures
1
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Posted - 2013.03.26 00:06:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I have been station trading for a few months now and the bots are getting totally out of control. I have now problem competing with and being undercut by flesh and blood humans, but the bots are making station trading inaccessible to new players (i.e. those with less than 10bill ISK).
For example, I update my by and sell orders several times a day and on anything with any volume my price gets under cut by 0.01 ISK by 3 or four other players within about 30 seconds. Now you don't need to tell me about obsessive game playing but this is too fast to be anything other than an automated trade. Even the recently implemented email alert system takes about 2 minutes to receive notification and then change a price.
I realise this problem has been around for a while but I believe its reaching a tipping point. As more bots enter the market it becomes harder for players to make a reasonable profit Station Trading, which in turn encourages more players to join the botters, which in turn adds more bots to the market.
Given how long it takes to skillup a station trading character I don't believe the three strikes rule provides ANY deterrent. CCP please implement a policy where anyone caught botting will be immediately perma banned. In addition continue to vary the methods of Bot detection in each patch and then perform the mass bot bans on a monthly basis.
There is no excuse for botting. It wrecks the economy and provides an unfair advantage to unscrupulous players.
K thanks bye!
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Elizabeth Naerth
Shnappy and Dhueis INC
0
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Posted - 2013.03.26 00:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
given you are in a trade hub, and there are 1500 people in system, you are lookinga t about 1200 traders. 1200 traders looking at main markets will easily update passed you, given the pur volume of people lookign at major sellers, minerals, and certain t2 goods.
i really only ever have out like 100 orders but i reccomend you just focus on 1 region and control it entirely. A few hundred orders in 1 region would keep you busy.
Yes, there are bots, Yes, it sucks. buy if there are 1200 people looking at the same item, they arent all going to be bots. Even if i AFK for an hour, in that hour, looking at trit prices, it would have adjusted like 100 times in each direction.....
Its not that the bots are ruining you, you are just doing it wrong.
I really only make like 40% on everything i do, which is nice with my continual rollover, but like i said, being market toon in a major hub you will have issues.
Set yourself up somewhere else..... And you will control it.... then you can undercut EVERYONE in a place like jita and still make more money. If you have issues competing, find lower places to buy. :) |
Grozen
Titan Core
4
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Posted - 2013.03.26 00:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Have you thought that it might be just the fact that jita population mainly consists of traders and it grows everyday?Trader bots are actually the lowest population among botters. knowledge is power. |
Lux Imperator
Soimii Patriei Nulli Secunda
44
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Posted - 2013.03.26 00:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
I don't know if it was a bot or just a desperate trader, but once I was undercut almost instantly on one of my orders. So what I did was to put 4 units of that item as buy order and started to undercut the guy /bot. Each time increasing the price by 2 %. Futile to say that after 2 hours my order was filled and his order was filled as well, only he was asking for 12000 thousand units at a 80% higher price almost.
Do bots have any type of protection against this type of maneuver ? How can a bot determine when the competing order is just a scheme ? |
Grozen
Titan Core
4
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Posted - 2013.03.26 00:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Many traders can sometimes act like a bot if they have free time and the most frequent technic for undercuting you asap is spliting your sell orders into several chuncks so that you can undercut even if your last order has just been edited. knowledge is power. |
Alex Grison
Grison Interstellar
244
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 00:44:00 -
[6] - Quote
Lux Imperator wrote:I don't know if it was a bot or just a desperate trader, but once I was undercut almost instantly on one of my orders. So what I did was to put 4 units of that item as buy order and started to undercut the guy /bot. Each time increasing the price by 2 %. Futile to say that after 2 hours my order was filled and his order was filled as well, only he was asking for 12000 thousand units at a 80% higher price almost.
Do bots have any type of protection against this type of maneuver ? How can a bot determine when the competing order is just a scheme ?
One could program a bot to stop after a certain number. But there is no way for a bot to know your Intent |
Candy Oshea
Techfree Investment Group
273
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 01:16:00 -
[7] - Quote
Alex Grison wrote: One could program a bot to stop after a certain number. But there is no way for a bot to know your Intent
Alex's First bot he made, went drastically wrong, it bought from sell orders then dumped straight to buy orders. Fortunately for all of us, the new bot only does that with thulium. iCandy - Bonds. - I have accidently swallowed some Scrabble tiles, my next **** could spell disaster! iCandy Custom Corp Creation & Corp boosting service |
Forio
Free Galactic Industry
0
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 02:37:00 -
[8] - Quote
Like someone else said Jita is a crazy full of traders...probably 3/4 or more are station trading. Some other regional hubs are alot more new-trader friendly as you might be competing against 200-300 players rather than 500-1000 on a particular item. Keep a minimum of 3 buy/sell orders for each item that lets you raise or lower prices on one of the orders to keep competitive. More if it is a high demand/high trade item. People doing that can seem like bots just cause every few minutes or even seconds you can update to out-bid the competition. Also don't get caught up in updates thinking you have to be the one on top. Think about your bottom line: your % return. Every buy order you increase decreses your profits. Sometimes its best to not chase the market and switch items your flipping. |
Oki Troom
Lucky Strike Ventures
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 03:22:00 -
[9] - Quote
Forio wrote:Like someone else said Jita is a crazy full of traders...probably 3/4 or more are station trading. Some other regional hubs are alot more new-trader friendly as you might be competing against 200-300 players rather than 500-1000 on a particular item. Keep a minimum of 3 buy/sell orders for each item that lets you raise or lower prices on one of the orders to keep competitive. More if it is a high demand/high trade item. People doing that can seem like bots just cause every few minutes or even seconds you can update to out-bid the competition. Also don't get caught up in updates thinking you have to be the one on top. Think about your bottom line: your % return. Every buy order you increase decreses your profits. Sometimes its best to not chase the market and switch items your flipping.
Just to clarify, I'm not at Jita, I'm at Dodixie. And yes, you can always move to less profitable or lower volume items. The point I am trying to make though is that, as the number of botters increase, they will move into more an more of the market. As competition between botters increases and squeezes margins they will also start to compete in these areas. I am not saying its not possible to make money Station Trading, I am just saying that if something isn't done about the trading bots - it soon will be. Anyone who has been trading for any period of time will tell you that bots are getting worse.
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joyous the
Slippery Penguin
6
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Posted - 2013.03.26 06:00:00 -
[10] - Quote
There's a few hardcore traders in Dodi, because it is, actually a pretty lucrative market if you have market dominance. You are a less productive trader competing against constant updaters. Many markets in Dodi aren't updated frequently outside of a few, which makes for the avid traders within to quickly cycle though their orders and efficiently update, since most wont require an update/ or a minimal scroll-wheel flick.
You've laid out why you're not good enough for this market. Deal with the facts. You'll know a bot when you see it, and you're still lookin.
"not saying its not possible to make money Station Trading, I am just saying that if something isn't done about the trading bots - it soon will be. Anyone who has been trading for any period of time will tell you that bots are getting worse."
-It'd hold a bit more clout if you're a notable Jita trader saying this, not a guy being outplayed in #3.
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Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
7
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Posted - 2013.03.26 09:49:00 -
[11] - Quote
There are definitely bots and they are easy to spot if you have been trading for a while. Reporting them most of the time does not do anything to be honest. I have report several in Amarr and nothing happened.
And no real trader in their right mind would continue to bid with only 0.01 ISK, especially when you are in a market pvp with someone else at that moment. I am taking purely of Buy orders tho, sell orders I do not care much.
If you are being constantly outbid .01 ISK even with using different methods of price manipulation you are definitely against a bot.
Here how it usually goes;
I put a buy order for item X for 460,000.00 ISK The bot outbids me with 460,000.01 ISK I than outbid the bot with 460,003.56 ISK ( totally random with usage of mouse wheel) The bot outbids me with 460,003.57 ISK I again change the order to 460,012.23 ISK (again mousewheel) The bot outbids yet again with 460,012.24 ISK (.01 again ) I get tired after a while and change the buy order to 470,000.00 ISK The bot outbids me 470,000.01 ISK.
This is a prime example of a bot. No player would go out of their way to type again the random number I generated with mousewheel and increasing it with only .01 ISK. It just does not make sense, especially if you are managing 100+ orders at a time.
Unfortunately, there quite a bit of people who uses these bots and they will straight out refuse that the behavior I just described is not a bot. Not much to do really. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
208
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 10:07:00 -
[12] - Quote
The problemwith trading bots is that you can take the **** with them really easily and make billions in a matter of hours. CCP does not enforce botting unless you really start making massive amounts of isk, RMT or upset other players.
You could easily run 5 mining bots or ratting bots and not get even a warning off CCP. Start using a market bot which can easily rack in a few billion per day then you'll **** peeps off and get a warning or a time ban when they complain to cpp.
There is also a lot of macro EULA legal software that can update 100's of market orders every 2 mins that is totally legit in the game rules. You have to click 'OK' every order but it does the maths for u insta .01 isking the best order, you have to create a spreadsheet but once it's up you can just hit ok all day. You can make billions legit with this but don't get the spread sheet wrong because you can also lose billions too. :)
I recentely caught a dude using a market bot and petitioned him, he was back on 23/7 after 7 days no doubt after his first time ban, oh well he has got 2 time bans to go before he even gets threatened with a ban. (his bot purchased over 75 buy orders at 2 units each in under 2 mins.) 75 buy orders set up by a human in under 2 mins. Looks like you botched your spread sheet there dude!
As to those who say botting is unfair, understand this. EVE's allinces and markets were built on the backs of botters. To tell new players not to bot and to actually enforce a no botting game would be unfair. You would simply have mega rich players who used bots versus new players who have not. The only way CCP could implement a no botting rule practically would be after a full server restart which is not going to happen. Bots are part of eve love them or hate them they are here to stay. No one is forcing you to bot and no one is stopping you from botting unless you RMT or take the ****. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
208
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 10:21:00 -
[13] - Quote
Stonkeep wrote:There are definitely bots and they are easy to spot if you have been trading for a while. Reporting them most of the time does not do anything to be honest. I have reported several in Amarr and nothing happened.
And no real trader in their right mind would continue to bid with only 0.01 ISK, especially when you are in a market pvp with someone else at that moment. I am talking purely of Buy orders tho, sell orders I do not care much.
If you are being constantly outbid .01 ISK even with using different methods of price manipulation you are definitely against a bot.
Here how it usually goes;
I put a buy order for item X for 460,000.00 ISK The bot outbids me with 460,000.01 ISK I than outbid the bot with 460,003.56 ISK ( totally random with usage of mouse wheel) The bot outbids me with 460,003.57 ISK I again change the order to 460,012.23 ISK (again mousewheel) The bot outbids yet again with 460,012.24 ISK (.01 again ) I get tired after a while and change the buy order to 470,000.00 ISK The bot outbids me 470,000.01 ISK.
This is a prime example of a bot. No player would go out of their way to type again the random number I generated with mousewheel and increasing it with only .01 ISK. It just does not make sense, especially if you are managing 100+ orders at a time.
Unfortunately, there quite a bit of people who uses these bots and they will straight out refuse that the behavior I just described is not a bot. Not much to do really.
This dude is using a spreadsheet and a program tied into the market api. It's totaly EULA legal, the program automaticaly generates the .01 isk number, all he has to do is copy paste or click ok depending on the program he is using. The reason this macro is legal is that it in no way automates anything within the eve client. The user must manually click the ok on the order or copy and paste the number.
With a good set up you can get this down to 4 keyboard commands ie ''q'' copy from spread ''w'' open eve client (or move mouse x distance), ''e'' double click order (or right adjust order) ''r'' paste/ enter.
Now repeat 50 times every 15 mins while youu pvp on your null sec main. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Oki Troom
Lucky Strike Ventures
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 11:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
joyous the wrote:There's a few hardcore traders in Dodi, because it is, actually a pretty lucrative market if you have market dominance. You are a less productive trader competing against constant updaters. Many markets in Dodi aren't updated frequently outside of a few, which makes for the avid traders within to quickly cycle though their orders and efficiently update, since most wont require an update/ or a minimal scroll-wheel flick.
You've laid out why you're not good enough for this market. Deal with the facts. You'll know a bot when you see it, and you're still lookin.
"not saying its not possible to make money Station Trading, I am just saying that if something isn't done about the trading bots - it soon will be. Anyone who has been trading for any period of time will tell you that bots are getting worse."
-It'd hold a bit more clout if you're a notable Jita trader saying this, not a guy being outplayed in #3.
Not sure what you are contributing to the discussion here other than, you're not in Jita and so are not l33t enough to have an opinion. Thanks for your input... |
Monnty
MIN0R THREAT
50
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 11:17:00 -
[15] - Quote
You can use the mousewheel...god damn it
Thanks |
Oki Troom
Lucky Strike Ventures
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 11:19:00 -
[16] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:The problemwith trading bots is that you can take the **** with them really easily and make billions in a matter of hours. CCP does not enforce botting unless you really start making massive amounts of isk, RMT or upset other players.
You could easily run 5 mining bots or ratting bots and not get even a warning off CCP. Start using a market bot which can easily rack in a few billion per day then you'll **** peeps off and get a warning or a time ban when they complain to cpp.
There is also a lot of macro EULA legal software that can update 100's of market orders every 2 mins that is totally legit in the game rules. You have to click 'OK' every order but it does the maths for u insta .01 isking the best order, you have to create a spreadsheet but once it's up you can just hit ok all day. You can make billions legit with this but don't get the spread sheet wrong because you can also lose billions too. :)
I recentely caught a dude using a market bot and petitioned him, he was back on 23/7 after 7 days no doubt after his first time ban, oh well he has got 2 time bans to go before he even gets threatened with a ban. (his bot purchased over 75 buy orders at 2 units each in under 2 mins.) 75 buy orders set up by a human in under 2 mins. Looks like you botched your spread sheet there dude!
As to those who say botting is unfair, understand this. EVE's allinces and markets were built on the backs of botters. To tell new players not to bot and to actually enforce a no botting game would be unfair. You would simply have mega rich players who used bots versus new players who have not. The only way CCP could implement a no botting rule practically would be after a full server restart which is not going to happen. Bots are part of eve love them or hate them they are here to stay. No one is forcing you to bot and no one is stopping you from botting unless you RMT or take the ****.
I don't really follow your logic of, as fortunes have been made using bots in the past, it would be unfair to ban them now. Unfair to who? The guys with lots of cash, or the guys wanting to make lots of cash.
I think you are missing the point. Bots don't make money, they just give you an advantage over those not using bots. If everyone used bots then all the margins would disappear overnight as they automatically updated buy and sell orders against each other.
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Rita Jita
Rita Jita Universal
552
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 11:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Stonkeep wrote:There are definitely bots and they are easy to spot if you have been trading for a while. Reporting them most of the time does not do anything to be honest. I have reported several in Amarr and nothing happened.
And no real trader in their right mind would continue to bid with only 0.01 ISK, especially when you are in a market pvp with someone else at that moment. I am talking purely of Buy orders tho, sell orders I do not care much.
If you are being constantly outbid .01 ISK even with using different methods of price manipulation you are definitely against a bot.
Here how it usually goes;
I put a buy order for item X for 460,000.00 ISK The bot outbids me with 460,000.01 ISK I than outbid the bot with 460,003.56 ISK ( totally random with usage of mouse wheel) The bot outbids me with 460,003.57 ISK I again change the order to 460,012.23 ISK (again mousewheel) The bot outbids yet again with 460,012.24 ISK (.01 again ) I get tired after a while and change the buy order to 470,000.00 ISK The bot outbids me 470,000.01 ISK.
This is a prime example of a bot. No player would go out of their way to type again the random number I generated with mousewheel and increasing it with only .01 ISK. It just does not make sense, especially if you are managing 100+ orders at a time.
Unfortunately, there quite a bit of people who uses these bots and they will straight out refuse that the behavior I just described is not a bot. Not much to do really. This dude is using a spreadsheet and a program tied into the market api. It's totaly EULA legal, the program automaticaly generates the .01 isk number, all he has to do is copy paste or click ok depending on the program he is using. The reason this macro is legal is that it in no way automates anything within the eve client. The user must manually click the ok on the order or copy and paste the number. With a good set up you can get this down to 4 keyboard commands ie ''q'' copy from spread ''w'' open eve client (or move mouse x distance), ''e'' double click order (or right adjust order) ''r'' paste/ enter. Now repeat 50 times every 15 mins while youu pvp on your null sec main.
http://www.evementat.com/
i'll just leave this here Founder of the "Haulers Channel"
Come Check It Out
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=176309 |
Rhivre
TarNec
22
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 11:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Stonkeep wrote:There are definitely bots and they are easy to spot if you have been trading for a while. Reporting them most of the time does not do anything to be honest. I have reported several in Amarr and nothing happened.
And no real trader in their right mind would continue to bid with only 0.01 ISK, especially when you are in a market pvp with someone else at that moment. I am talking purely of Buy orders tho, sell orders I do not care much.
If you are being constantly outbid .01 ISK even with using different methods of price manipulation you are definitely against a bot.
Here how it usually goes;
I put a buy order for item X for 460,000.00 ISK The bot outbids me with 460,000.01 ISK I than outbid the bot with 460,003.56 ISK ( totally random with usage of mouse wheel) The bot outbids me with 460,003.57 ISK I again change the order to 460,012.23 ISK (again mousewheel) The bot outbids yet again with 460,012.24 ISK (.01 again ) I get tired after a while and change the buy order to 470,000.00 ISK The bot outbids me 470,000.01 ISK.
This is a prime example of a bot. No player would go out of their way to type again the random number I generated with mousewheel and increasing it with only .01 ISK. It just does not make sense, especially if you are managing 100+ orders at a time.
Unfortunately, there quite a bit of people who uses these bots and they will straight out refuse that the behavior I just described is not a bot. Not much to do really.
If I am in jita on an alt (Say, trading T2 items/ships), I will absolutely do that. I either highlight the last few digits and then change them, or scroll the mousewheel to change it.
Also, when I am in Jita, I am trading probably 20 items, and I have them sorted by time remaining, so, I have my wallet open one side, market open the other, and just keep an eye on the time, and when it gets to 5 mins, give or take, I will check the order.
In a particularly competitive market, I will have 3-4 orders open per item, and if someone outbids me, I may just open a new order.
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
208
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 12:13:00 -
[19] - Quote
There are always enougth players trying to earn ISK without using bots that make botting an attractive option without destroying margins or having every man and his dog in supercarriers, well almost anyway. CCP is happy to keep the current status quo where people who don't bot can point to the EULA and have the moral high ground while at the same time keeping botters happy by not actively enforcing a no botting policy (must be stressed that RMT botting is enforced harshly).
Also on the point I was making about how CCP can not all of a sudden enforce botting. Lets say we have Allince A (who've happily botted a supercarrier and techmoon empire over the last few years) comes up against Allince B (who built an allince up of new players in the last year with out bots). Of course Allince B under a no bot new eden does not have a hope in hell against allince A's stockpiles.
It's best to do what CCP is currentely doing. Allow small to medium scale botting while curbing back on massive scale or isk generating bots. The allows allinces like B to fight on a more level playing field. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Alex Grison
Grison Interstellar
245
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 15:30:00 -
[20] - Quote
Candy Oshea wrote:Alex Grison wrote: One could program a bot to stop after a certain number. But there is no way for a bot to know your Intent
Alex's First bot he made, went drastically wrong, it bought from sell orders then dumped straight to buy orders. Fortunately for all of us, the new bot only does that with thulium.
At first. Then it stole my shuttle and developed delusions of grandeur. currently he is on his way to the eve gate where he thinks that he will be able to "Make everything right" ( I have heard him mumble this phrase repeatedly ) |
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Lara Dantreb
New Horizons
8
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Posted - 2013.03.26 15:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
I remember a couple of days, a few months ago, when CCP removed the ability to paste numbers from clipboard in a sell order window. Most market bots used to paste numbers to update orders, thus for around 48 hours almost all bots were not functionning anymore.
I had stockpiles of stuff for sale in Jita 4-4 at this moment, and most of this stuff been sold in these 2 days, for around 70B in a week end and I did not even took care to undercut prices... (around 20 times more than usually)
This made me think about the real interest I had in EVE : I don't play market wars anymore, because there is nothing more boring than to fight against bots.
The little bad fact for CCP is that I used to purchase around 300 PLEX per year (my accounts + irl friends). Today, we buy around 30 PLEX per year, just being curious to see what's new from time to time.
----á-á Buying T2 ship bpos since 2005-á --- --- -á-á-á-á-á-á BUT NOT ATM :)-á-á-á --- |
Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
7
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 16:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.
Live and learn!! |
0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
33
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 16:40:00 -
[23] - Quote
Stonkeep wrote:In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.
Live and learn!!
Yeah it's a sad fact that CCP like to play up the fact that botting and macroing is against the rules when the majority of the time it's not. Only a very small amount of bots are against the rules pretty much only bots that completely automate via the eve client. Any software that automates outside of the client and then has a user enter the final automated function is completely legit. IE multi boxing programs use macro's to duplicate clicks across several clients. These are not against the rules as long as the macro runs out side the client.
There are a few good market bots and anomaly ratting bots that are kosher according to ccp. |
sixth sense
Blue Republic RvB - BLUE Republic
2
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 17:45:00 -
[24] - Quote
the most deterrent about trading are the 0.1 ISK games. why not give orders a minimum time of 1 - 6 hours after changing it... |
Lux Imperator
Soimii Patriei Nulli Secunda
44
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 18:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
The 0,01 thing is the most annoying mechanic you can find in an MMO this days. Selling stuff on the market should be about ones ability to find lucrative items and negotiate prices (more like an auction house).
In real life how many companies and traders are changing their prices 1 cent 50 times a day ?
Three times I tried to stay in the station trading game and even though I found good items I just didn't had the time and will to play the 0,01 ISK game for too long. No wonder that people use bots as this is the most boring 'activity' you can have.
Please don't take it as a rant, like " OMG this **** bores me so it must be stuuuupid and who ever does it is a no lifer".
I would've do it like this :
1. Seller puts 4000 units for sale at a starting price 2. Traders start to bid for quantities and price. Price can be altered only by a certain % of the start price asked by seller ( thus removing the grind of 0,01). This way , someone that starts to bid has to think a bit before putting the bid and start changing it.
3. After a certain time (+ sniping time) the first bid wins and receives items.
4. If there are items left the auction restarts to determine the second winner and so on.
Thus : no grinding, take brains but less time to do it, much better control of the orders for the buyer, no bots. |
Zircon Dasher
169
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 21:16:00 -
[26] - Quote
Stonkeep wrote:In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.
Live and learn!!
Fun thought experiment:
How could one leverage the synergies between multiple, and disparate, legit 3rd party software? Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'. |
Rhivre
TarNec
22
|
Posted - 2013.03.26 21:55:00 -
[27] - Quote
Lux Imperator wrote:The 0,01 thing is the most annoying mechanic you can find in an MMO these days. Selling stuff on the market should be about ones ability to find lucrative items and negotiate prices (more like an auction house).
In real life how many companies and traders are changing their prices 1 cent 50 times a day ?
Three times I tried to stay in the station trading game and even though I found good items I just didn't had the time and will to play the 0,01 ISK game for too long. No wonder that people use bots as this is the most boring 'activity' you can have.
Please don't take it as a rant, like " OMG this **** bores me so it must be stuuuupid and who ever does it is a no lifer".
I have found that on 0.01 items (usually high volume, low margin), the price changes very little due to the frequency of trades, so you can go away, come back later, and stuff will have filled. Worst case scenario, I have to update by a few isk.... usually overnight my prices change by less than 10 isk, and most of the orders have at least partially fill.
Other items, which are equally high volume, but sold in bulk, tend to turn up in fits and starts...some of my orders I havent had to update in 6 hours, which can be quite annoying.
Then you get the low volume, high margin items, which sell 3-5 a day, which rarely require updating.
You do not really need to do 0.01ing unless a) you are bored and sitting at the screen with no other clients open and no chat windows, b) are really impatient and need to double your isk fairly fast. |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
688
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 06:28:00 -
[28] - Quote
Oki Troom wrote: Even the recently implemented email alert system
On a side note. What is this email alert system?
yk
|
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
208
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 07:03:00 -
[29] - Quote
http://www.evementat.com/
is a good one, There are a few good bots out there too that are legal as long as you set them up propperly and do not automate via the eve client. you just have click the market order and the bot will do the rest outside of the client such as give you a 0.1 isk best price or bul buy depending on what you've set up in your spread sheet price. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Oki Troom
Lucky Strike Ventures
1
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 11:13:00 -
[30] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Oki Troom wrote: Even the recently implemented email alert system On a side note. What is this email alert system? yk
http://eveorderwatcher.com/ |
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Maxpie
MUSE Apprenticeship
276
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 12:56:00 -
[31] - Quote
Hmm, a lot of bot deniers in this thread. We know bots exist. A simple google tells us this. Now why are people trying to point attention away from botting? I wonder...
No good deed goes unpunished |
Rhivre
TarNec
22
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 13:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
Maxpie wrote:Hmm, a lot of bot deniers in this thread. We know bots exist. A simple google tells us this. Now why are people trying to point attention away from botting? I wonder...
I dont think anyone is saying bots dont exist, (nor do I see anyone in this thread saying there are no bots)...however, there is a difference between "A small % of people use bots" (Like with the eve uni drama earlier this year), and "There are bots under every bed" (As in the "Bots are out of control!" statements)
I see it as this...how do you know someone is updating all the time unless you are checking all the time too...if you are checking and updating, chances are other people are too. If you think you have come up with some awesome scheme to change price which no one will figure out, then chances are, other people have figured it out.
The common tactic of "anyone who denies there is an enormous problem with bots, whereby the majority of the people in the market are botters, must be using a bot themselves" is similar to "That guy is using hacks!!" in other games....
That there are botters in eve != every miner or trader is running a bot.
|
Mu-Shi Ai
Ai Capital
183
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 13:27:00 -
[33] - Quote
Maxpie wrote:Hmm, a lot of bot deniers in this thread. We know bots exist. A simple google tells us this. Now why are people trying to point attention away from botting? I wonder...
Because being undercut quickly in a hub with 1500 other traders in it is not evidence that your opponents are botters?
Seriously. All you have to do in order to appear to be a botter is create 3 or 4 separate orders for the same item and update them on a rotating basis as you get outbid. I know it sounds completely outlandish that somebody would sit there all day long and do such a thing, but there are people who do that. They literally have nothing better to do, so they just update orders incessantly. And the reason why people such as yourself believe they are botters is because, ultimately, it's comforting to believe in that idea. Rather than strain your intellect by seeking out other ways to make money which don't have you competing with market obsessives, you stroll over to MD and complain to CCP about bots.
Let me make it crystal clear: there are market bots in EVE. The thing is, you are far less likely to encounter a market bot than you are to encounter another player who simply has more time on his hands, and more of a singleminded obsession with updating orders, than you. Simply being outbid is not, in itself, evidence that you are competing against a bot. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3982
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 14:01:00 -
[34] - Quote
Lux Imperator wrote:The 0,01 thing is the most annoying mechanic you can find in an MMO these days. Selling stuff on the market should be about ones ability to find lucrative items and negotiate prices (more like an auction house).
In real life how many companies and traders are changing their prices 1 cent 50 times a day ?
RL has the concept of loss. Even if EvE also tends to give a feeling of meaningful loss, it's still much less dramatic than seeing your account rapidly going to zero after having hard worked for 1 year to fill it.
In RL you can change an order 5000 times... a minute if you want and unlike EvE it's free, it won't even cost the equivalent of 100 ISK.
Yet in RL, 85-95% of the traders lose their money, in EvE even the worst baddie cannot lose his pants and have to go gather coke cans outside the supermarkets.
In RL a retail trader (not talking about institutions) cannot just buy from buy orders and flip on sell orders. The spread are usually a fraction of dollar while the broker fee to open a position is 3-6 dollars and then again to close it. This means that not any noob can just buy and flip, they also have to somewhat predict where price will move so they can at least cover the transaction costs. This already makes RL trading substantially less 0.01 ISKer friendly than EvE.
Then there's the velocity factor. Even trading Tritanium, you will see your order sitting there, then after 3-4 minutes (if not outbid) somebody might take it or it might sit there another 10 minutes.
In GW2 like in RL, instead, there are no "order update cooldowns", so price is ever moving, your buy order could get taken in 2 seconds and then price move quickly against you in the next 10 seconds and keep going worse afterwards.
All these factors make EvE station trading very simplicistic, to the point it's not classic trading but more of a "time sharing" experiece: you get 10 guys 0.01 ISKing each other and the statistic result is that each of them will have shared 1/10 of the "best order exposure" time and thus 1/10 the chance to be the one getting their order filled.
Had they been RL trading, they'd not get a "fair" and visible share of time, as some of them would get instantly filled, others never. So most resort to "pending orders" and thus have to more or less know how price works and behaves. In EvE this knowledge is not required, you know that you WILL get your order filled if you keep 0.01 ISKing enough. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Fractal Muse
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
238
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 14:04:00 -
[35] - Quote
Stonkeep wrote:In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.
Live and learn!! I'm not sure if that is what I would believe that.
In this thread (about an EVE University player who got banned for botting) CCP Sreegs seems to be saying that using 3rd party software to update market orders faster than is humanly possible is against the EULA. But, I don't know how vigorously CCP enforces this.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601499#post2601499
and
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601589#post2601589
In fact, reading that thread in its entirety would be enlightening.
But, at the moment, I don't know how much of a priority market bots are to CCP so your mileage will differ.
|
Stonkeep
Osmanli Empire
11
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 15:42:00 -
[36] - Quote
Mu-Shi Ai wrote: Let me make it crystal clear: there are market bots in EVE. The thing is, you are far less likely to encounter a market bot than you are to encounter another player who simply has more time on his hands, and more of a singleminded obsession with updating orders, than you. Simply being outbid is not, in itself, evidence that you are competing against a bot.
Altho, I agree with you, I don't think this is completely right. Yes, perhaps only 1-3% of all traders use bots and even tho it is a very low number the effect of these bots quite larger than that. Simply put a bot will have an extremely high uptime on the orders window thus effecting the market in a much much larger way. If any normal trader can fill 1/10 of their orders a bot can 5/10 or higher than that.
I can most of the time tell if the person I am market pvping against is a bot or not. There are a lot of ways to do this. I do get annoyed when I get outbid but it is extremely frustrated when I know that it is done by a bot. I already explained how you can detect if a bid is made a by a bot or not.
As it was discussed in this thread, these 3rd party software programs considered "legit" so they might not be considered a bot by some.
Fractal Muse wrote:Stonkeep wrote:In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.
Live and learn!! I'm not sure if that is what I would believe that. In this thread (about an EVE University player who got banned for botting) CCP Sreegs seems to be saying that using 3rd party software to update market orders faster than is humanly possible is against the EULA. But, I don't know how vigorously CCP enforces this. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601499#post2601499and https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601589#post2601589In fact, reading that thread in its entirety would be enlightening. But, at the moment, I don't know how much of a priority market bots are to CCP so your mileage will differ.
That is a great post actually and it proves what we have been discussing here. CCP does not touch you unless you go big. They guy who was banned had 317billion in his account. Now that is a quite large amount of ISK and it got noticed by CCP after all it was done.
Like some others already said here, CCP will not touch you unless you bot hardcore and you will not be touched much if you use 3rd party "legit" sofware. I know there is at least 1 of these in Amarr and after so many reports he is still there and does not seem to be going anywhere.
|
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
350
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 16:19:00 -
[37] - Quote
I would call station trading bots a surprisingly minor issue in the Eve universe.
Station trading in itself has always been a third party cancer on the market between the industry and the consumer so I have no sympathy for them if they have to spend all day symbolically undercutting each other by one isk on every order.
I oppose station bots on a moral level. I just don't feel too sorry for the traders.
Sort of like the mining bots. Good for the consumer. Bad on principle. We miss you Saede. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
208
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 16:24:00 -
[38] - Quote
Fractal Muse wrote:Stonkeep wrote:In short, What i have learned from this topic is that, using 3rd party software that pretty much automates market order control/modificaltion is ACCEPTABLE by both the players and CCP. This is good to know, everyone please welcome another "legit" 3rd party user into the market.
Live and learn!! I'm not sure if that is what I would believe that. In this thread (about an EVE University player who got banned for botting) CCP Sreegs seems to be saying that using 3rd party software to update market orders faster than is humanly possible is against the EULA. But, I don't know how vigorously CCP enforces this. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601499#post2601499and https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2601589#post2601589In fact, reading that thread in its entirety would be enlightening. But, at the moment, I don't know how much of a priority market bots are to CCP so your mileage will differ.
Programs that allow users to multi box 10 miner or ratter accounts are allowing players to mine rocks faster than humanly possible. A program or script that allows me to change buy orders and sell orders 10's and 100's of times per minute is also allowed. I've even petitioned this and had it confirmed it's ok. You are just not allowed automation within the eve client, outside of the client is fine.
For example all these lotterys that are running use scripts but the eve client side is supposed to be non automated.
Just ask Stormbringer999s I caught one of his macro's going haywire and purchasing over 50 seperate buy orders in under 2 mins. That is simply not humanly possible. I'd like to market trade with out a macro but since they are allowed it's the only sensible way to do so. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3982
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 16:54:00 -
[39] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:I would call station trading bots a surprisingly minor issue in the Eve universe.
Station trading in itself has always been a third party cancer on the market between the industry and the consumer so I have no sympathy for them if they have to spend all day symbolically undercutting each other by one isk on every order.
I oppose station bots on a moral level. I just don't feel too sorry for the traders.
Sort of like the mining bots. Good for the consumer. Bad on principle.
What you call "third party cancer" is at the foundation of any liquid market and the reason why markets self-optimize and self reduce spreads to the minimum allowed by their average traded volume.
In RL when these "third party cancers" miss, exchanges have to pay specialty companies called liquidity providers to provide traders a viable working environment.
Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
350
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:11:00 -
[40] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Angelique Duchemin wrote:I would call station trading bots a surprisingly minor issue in the Eve universe.
Station trading in itself has always been a third party cancer on the market between the industry and the consumer so I have no sympathy for them if they have to spend all day symbolically undercutting each other by one isk on every order.
I oppose station bots on a moral level. I just don't feel too sorry for the traders.
Sort of like the mining bots. Good for the consumer. Bad on principle. What you call "third party cancer" is at the foundation of any liquid market and the reason why markets self-optimize and self reduce spreads to the minimum allowed by their average traded volume. In RL when these "third party cancers" miss, exchanges have to pay specialty companies called liquidity providers to provide traders a viable working environment.
I'd accept that if there weren't 1500 of you sitting in the same station buying up and reselling the same things that the miner just dropped off.
All those billions that are generated in between the industry and the consumer weren't spun out of thin air. We miss you Saede. |
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Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
209
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:14:00 -
[41] - Quote
Then set up a nice macro and get part of the action. The sooner more peeps learn about ELUA legal macro's the better. Lets just destroy all margins in every eve hub so CCP can stop being able to sprout utter rubbish about a player run market.
They might actually clamp down on multi boxers and macro peeps then. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
352
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:25:00 -
[42] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Then set up a nice macro and get part of the action. The sooner more peeps learn about ELUA legal macro's the better. Lets just destroy all margins in every eve hub so CCP can stop being able to sprout utter rubbish about a player run market.
They might actually clamp down on multi boxers and macro peeps then.
I'd rather just do what I do now. Fly around nullsec shooting stuff all day without a care for what the losses cost. if I ever need some additional ISK I'll just sell some plexes.
We miss you Saede. |
joyous the
Slippery Penguin
6
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 17:29:00 -
[43] - Quote
Oki Troom wrote:joyous the wrote:There's a few hardcore traders in Dodi, because it is, actually a pretty lucrative market if you have market dominance. You are a less productive trader competing against constant updaters. Many markets in Dodi aren't updated frequently outside of a few, which makes for the avid traders within to quickly cycle though their orders and efficiently update, since most wont require an update/ or a minimal scroll-wheel flick.
You've laid out why you're not good enough for this market. Deal with the facts. You'll know a bot when you see it, and you're still lookin.
"not saying its not possible to make money Station Trading, I am just saying that if something isn't done about the trading bots - it soon will be. Anyone who has been trading for any period of time will tell you that bots are getting worse."
-It'd hold a bit more clout if you're a notable Jita trader saying this, not a guy being outplayed in #3.
Not sure what you are contributing to the discussion here other than, you're not in Jita and so are not l33t enough to have an opinion. Thanks for your input...
No, as someone who trades in Dodi, I'm giving you reasons why the people outbidding you are most likely not bots. And I'm saying you, a trader who can't compete in Dodi, claiming soon noone will be able to make money on the market is simply wrong and dumb.
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Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
522
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 18:14:00 -
[44] - Quote
Oki Troom wrote:
Just to clarify, I'm not at Jita, I'm at Dodixie. And yes, you can always move to less profitable or lower volume items. The point I am trying to make though is that, as the number of botters increase, they will move into more an more of the market. As competition between botters increases and squeezes margins they will also start to compete in these areas. I am not saying its not possible to make money Station Trading, I am just saying that if something isn't done about the trading bots - it soon will be. Anyone who has been trading for any period of time will tell you that bots are getting worse.
I get were you are coming from, and I do not disagree that market botting is on the rise.
However I look at this as more an opportunity then a problem. Market bots, no matter how well programed are not human. They can not reason, and can not tell the difference between a manipulation attempt and a competitor. If you find a item that a true market bot is active on, you only need to test the bots reactions to find a way to exploit it. Not exploit the game, but the botter that is violating the rules. If you can figure out the programed rules that bot is following you can manipulate that bot for your own profits. If the bot is undercutting every sell order you place then manipulate them down with a series of small orders until there price drops below your profit threshold. then you can buy out there orders and repost them at a higher value.
All high volume items move up and down in value constantly. if you know what the range you can expect to see is you can play that market very easily. play right alone with the 0.01 iskers, even jump by larger amounts that you know they will undercut by 0.01 isk. when the price gets down buy up the lower orders, all of them and quickly. then you can repost them at a value you know the bounce back will exceed. even if it is only a 1-2% profit, if you do this in high volume you can make massive isk. market bots make this easier not harder. you just need to determine the bots threshold and snap up the orders 1-2 isk before the bot hits its threshold.
We can not expect CCP to eliminate the bots for us. not matter what they do the botters will very quickly adapt and keep going. They are doing a good job of identifying bots and locking there accounts, but there are always new ones popping up. If however, the non botters continue to out play the bots, which is easy to do, the players using the bots will stop as they will be losing isk.
The big problem with bots and isk sellers is something that can never truly be addressed in any MMO. The problem is there are many businesses in third world countries where MMO games are a major source of income. If you could pay 200 people $2 per day to play an MMO with a dedicated focus on efficient raising of ingame wealth with no regard for having fun. It is a job after all. and they each make enough isk/gold/credits what ever that in game currency is, to sell that thru the companies website for $50 per day that company is making great returns.
Consider this, a $15 sub which is common for MMO's plus $2 per day adds up to $75 per month cost to the company. If each employee is averaging them $50 week income from selling the earned in game currency for real money thru the companies website,, that is $200 per month. Or $125 profit. multiply that by 200 employees that is $25,000 per month. Ad administration fees and building maintenance, etc, they are still going to be making at least $15,000-$20,000 per month profit. Not a lot of money for a company of 200 employees, at least not in the US or western Europe. But in a country where the average monthly income for a person is only $40-$60 per month that is a lot of money. And these employees are grateful as it is one of the best paying jobs in their county. In a country where the equivalent of $2 USD per day is a really good gob a company making $20,000 per month is a very successful company.
this is why botting and thrid party gold/isk sellers will never die. it is not some guy in his basement trying to make a little extra money, it is companies in third world country's with no other option to make that kind on money. |
Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
352
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 18:25:00 -
[45] - Quote
Bugsy VanHalen wrote: Consider this, a $15 sub which is common for MMO's plus $2 per day adds up to $75 per month cost to the company. If each employee is averaging them $50 week income from selling the earned in game currency for real money thru the companies website,, that is $200 per month. Or $125 profit. multiply that by 200 employees that is $25,000 per month. Ad administration fees and building maintenance, etc, they are still going to be making at least $15,000-$20,000 per month profit. Not a lot of money for a company of 200 employees, at least not in the US or western Europe. But in a country where the average monthly income for a person is only $40-$60 per month that is a lot of money. And these employees are grateful as it is one of the best paying jobs in their county. In a country where the equivalent of $2 USD per day is a really good gob a company making $20,000 per month is a very successful company.
this is why botting and thrid party gold/isk sellers will never die. it is not some guy in his basement trying to make a little extra money, it is companies in third world country's with no other option to make that kind on money.
But who cares if thousands of people in poor countries feed their families with the money they make on this. They are effecting my time sink internet space ships so it's morally unjustifiable and they are evil for it.
We miss you Saede. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
3982
|
Posted - 2013.03.27 20:01:00 -
[46] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:
I'd accept that if there weren't 1500 of you sitting in the same station buying up and reselling the same things that the miner just dropped off.
All those billions that are generated in between the industry and the consumer weren't spun out of thin air.
I don't sit at Jita. Look at it in another perspective: station trading is like the "starter system"s for a trader. Expecially in the "low entry barrier" characteristic. Later on they switch to swing trading (me), market manipulations, pre patch and then post patch speculation and many other avenues. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
35
|
Posted - 2013.03.30 14:39:00 -
[47] - Quote
sixth sense wrote:the most deterrent about trading are the 0.1 ISK games. why not give orders a minimum time of 1 - 6 hours after changing it...
because the bots would still beat you, stupid idea is stupid. |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
35
|
Posted - 2013.03.30 15:33:00 -
[48] - Quote
I can sit and update my orders for long periods of time but I'm human and I eventually crack and need to walk away from the PC and take a break from it, its not human for someone to be able to sit at their machines updating orders constantly for 6 - 12 hours everyday, its just not.
Fortunately I don't have to because I use various trade strategies that take away most of the hard work.
Hint.
Find only items that have a decent profit margin, something like 15% or greater but over 25% is good, do not bother with something that only generates 3% or something crap like that, otherwise enjoy your pathetic 100 mil per week...
Work out the average hourly volume traded, so in the price history table sort by date with most recent at the top, add the volume amounts over the last 5 - 10 days excluding the current day at the top, and taking care to avoid including abnormally high or low values, divide that value by the number of days you added to find the daily average. Divide that value by 24 to find out the average hourly volume traded, then a little trick I use, I divide the hourly amount by 2, this insures that I'm taking into consideration that the volume is both buy and sell, since it would take too much work to manually work out from spreadsheet imports to difference between the 2.
Multiple that by the hours you think you are willing to sit at your computer, now set up your buy order with that volume, for example titanium chromide shows it has a margin of 16% and its average sell price is climbing, so that's good item to invest in today, it might not be tomorrow but today its good...
I work out that titanium chromide has an average trading volume of 326,591 units over the past 10 days not including today's trades so it averages just over 13k per hour, when I divide the value by 2 I get 6,803 , so I multiply that value by 4 giving me 4 hours worth of stock 27,215 which I can now buy and sell confidently within 4 hours and the total isk needed will be around 74,089,571.7 isk when I sell the stock I'll make around 12 million isk on that item over 4 hours, so roughly 3 million isk per hour for just that item, so do you see what I mean about doing the research and understanding how it works...
Sorry I suck at explaining things in writing but maybe it will help lessen the frustration, its so much better to camp 5 - 10 items and make 25% or more profit than it is to camp over 100 mostly crap items and total burn out after
|
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
475
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 05:08:00 -
[49] - Quote
LittleTerror wrote:I can sit and update my orders for long periods of time but I'm human and I eventually crack and need to walk away from the PC and take a break from it, its not human for someone to be able to sit at their machines updating orders constantly for 6 - 12 hours everyday, its just not. Fortunately I don't have to because I use various trade strategies that take away most of the hard work. Hint. Find only items that have a decent profit margin, something like 15% or greater but over 25% is good, do not bother with something that only generates 3% or something crap like that, otherwise enjoy your pathetic 100 mil per week... Work out the average hourly volume traded, so in the price history table sort by date with most recent at the top, add the volume amounts over the last 5 - 10 days excluding the current day at the top, and taking care to avoid including abnormally high or low values, divide that value by the number of days you added to find the daily average. Divide that value by 24 to find out the average hourly volume traded, then a little trick I use, I divide the hourly amount by 2, this insures that I'm taking into consideration that the volume is both buy and sell, since it would take too much work to manually work out from spreadsheet imports to difference between the 2. Multiple that by the hours you think you are willing to sit at your computer, now set up your buy order with that volume, for example titanium chromide shows it has a margin of 16% and its average sell price is climbing, so that's good item to invest in today, it might not be tomorrow but today its good... I work out that titanium chromide has an average trading volume of 326,591 units over the past 10 days not including today's trades so it averages just over 13k per hour, when I divide the value by 2 I get 6,803 , so I multiply that value by 4 giving me 4 hours worth of stock 27,215 which I can now buy and sell confidently within 4 hours and the total isk needed will be around 74,089,571.7 isk when I sell the stock I'll make around 12 million isk on that item over 4 hours, so roughly 3 million isk per hour for just that item, so do you see what I mean about doing the research and understanding how it works... Sorry I suck at explaining things in writing but maybe it will help lessen the frustration, its so much better to camp 5 - 10 items and make 25% or more profit than it is to camp over 100 mostly crap items and totally burn out after 3 days and then coming to whine on the forums about trade bots /edit This is obviously from a station trader perspective but it could be taken to the regional level with some thought!
you end up with the mats in low-nul, becomes tedious hauling them out once a month or 2
on a side note, the explanation was pretty good. eventually one learns to look at an items history and guestimate fairly accurately at the expected income for every hour spent with orders on top at said prices. If the item makes 750K per hour then its worth using 2 market slots. aka 308 times 750K =281M per hour. EditV half of 281 = 140.5 per hour |
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
381
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 15:32:00 -
[50] - Quote
The thing about .01 isking is: It's the right thing to do.
What you don't want, is 2 or 3 players changing prices by huge margins. Those 3 guys can cut all your margins in 15 minutes if they start bumping prices by large amounts. |
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Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
379
|
Posted - 2013.03.31 17:29:00 -
[51] - Quote
I've been buying Warrior II drones in Jita using buy orders. I needed 500 to nullsec so I figured a buy order of 500 set somewhere between the buy and sell order prices would get me some quick drones.
The buy order price instead went from 378k per drone to now 426k per drone in about 30 minutes. The sell orders being 427k.
And I still only have 106 of the 500 drones I was looking for.
Once I have my 500 drones the price is going to crash.
If you station traders had just let me have my 500 drones at 400k then the price could go back to 378k once I was done. We miss you Saede. |
Plyn
Dominatus Imperium
57
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 17:48:00 -
[52] - Quote
Lots of arm flapping panic going on in this thread.
If you get outbid immediately it doesn't mean it's a bot. If you update your price randomly (more than .01 over the next) and you get .01'd it doesn't mean it's a bot.
I run buy orders in Dodixie as well (not on this character). Sometimes after I update all my buy orders I keep my market character open on my other screen while I'm off doing fun stuff with this one. I notice out of the corner of my eye that someone just outbid my most recently updated order, outbidding me by 1,573.12 isk. I modify my order, typing in the price because I'm hella fast with 10-key and it's too much to bother mouse wheel flicking. I up them by .01 because I care about money and maximizing profit is, in fact, the most reasonable and rational thing for someone to do.
Then I go through all my orders, because if someone just outbid this one, they are probably going through and doing the others too. Hossenfeffer. |
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
209
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 18:16:00 -
[53] - Quote
Plyn wrote:Lots of arm flapping panic going on in this thread.
If you get outbid immediately it doesn't mean it's a bot. If you update your price randomly (more than .01 over the next) and you get .01'd it doesn't mean it's a bot.
I run buy orders in Dodixie as well (not on this character). Sometimes after I update all my buy orders I keep my market character open on my other screen while I'm off doing fun stuff with this one. I notice out of the corner of my eye that someone just outbid my most recently updated order, outbidding me by 1,573.12 isk. I modify my order, typing in the price because I'm hella fast with 10-key and it's too much to bother mouse wheel flicking. I up them by .01 because I care about money and maximizing profit is, in fact, the most reasonable and rational thing for someone to do.
Then I go through all my orders, because if someone just outbid this one, they are probably going through and doing the others too.
Why bother you can easily get a market tool that will notify you when you've been 1 isked and provided a new value for you to copy and past straight into eve. Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal.
Sometimes noobs think that this sort of action is against the rules and they come onto the forum to complain. I've complained about this when I was a noob too. People just need to learn where they can get the EULA legal tools so they can do it too. With a good eve tool and 1/2hr you can make around 1bn isk per day just afk trading. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Captain-Jean LucPicard
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 18:28:00 -
[54] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:
Why bother you can easily get a market tool that will notify you when you've been 1 isked and provided a new value for you to copy and past straight into eve. Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal.
because you say so? it might be not be easy to backtrack, but 100% EULA lega as you say, I-¦m not sure. |
Rhivre
TarNec
27
|
Posted - 2013.04.01 19:29:00 -
[55] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:[
Why bother you can easily get a market tool that will notify you when you've been 1 isked and provided a new value for you to copy and past straight into eve. Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal.
Sometimes noobs think that this sort of action is against the rules and they come onto the forum to complain. I've complained about this when I was a noob too. People just need to learn where they can get the EULA legal tools so they can do it too. With a good eve tool and 1/2hr you can make around 1bn isk per day just afk trading.
"3.You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play. You may not rewrite or modify the user interface or otherwise manipulate data in any way to acquire items, currency, objects, character attributes or beneficial actions not actually acquired or achieved in the Game."
Not sure that something which automates opening the right wallet order for you is within this. |
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
477
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 06:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
Angelique Duchemin wrote:I've been buying Warrior II drones in Jita using buy orders. I needed 500 to nullsec so I figured a buy order of 500 set somewhere between the buy and sell order prices would get me some quick drones.
The buy order price instead went from 378k per drone to now 426k per drone in about 30 minutes. The sell orders being 427k.
And I still only have 106 of the 500 drones I was looking for.
Once I have my 500 drones the price is going to crash.
If you station traders had just let me have my 500 drones at 400k then the price could go back to 378k once I was done.
But the thing is, you and all the traders knew for 100% fact this was never going to happen. The mentality is, if you want it cheep then good luck because there's 50K people on the servers who want it cheep while 1-50 of them are directly fighting over that exact cheep.
you should take great care not to do it with any character that will ever fly costly things or industrial ships, because no one ever sells just 1 drone. |
11 of 11
The 11th Hour
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 07:20:00 -
[57] - Quote
Oh well geez. Right before my own eyes.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=221568&find=unread
I do believe I have proof of a bot. There's no way at all that you can have one single item and 23 hours a day it is automatically undercut by .11 every time you change your order.
If CCP wants to know what item this bot is running on lemme know.
CCP doesn't allow this, correct?
11 of 11
|
Premier Sovian
New Sun Ventures
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 09:24:00 -
[58] - Quote
RavenPaine wrote:The thing about .01 isking is: It's the right thing to do.
What you don't want, is 2 or 3 players changing prices by huge margins. Those 3 guys can cut all your margins in 15 minutes if they start bumping prices by large amounts.
This is how you beat people with 0.01 programs. Playing to their game and going .01 lower (Only to be immediately undercut again)isn't the 'right thing to do' it's the way to make sure you barely sell anything.
If you've got more free time to kill than you know what to do with .01 away but for new players I'd recommend working how to make around 10% profit on the sale and then cutting towards that with a grim determination. It's working great for me. |
Rhivre
TarNec
30
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 09:28:00 -
[59] - Quote
Premier Sovian wrote: If you've got more free time to kill than you know what to do with .01 away but for new players I'd recommend working how to make around 10% profit on the sale and then cutting towards that with a grim determination. It's working great for me.
I agree, I never go below 10% on items personally, because it is easy to calculate, and saves me having to grind corp/faction rep |
11 of 11
The 11th Hour
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 09:31:00 -
[60] - Quote
Okay so we have established that everyone has seen the market bots.
Is it CCP cheating at their own game?
If that is the case I am gone.
Is CCP cheating?
11 of 11 |
|
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2265
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 10:39:00 -
[61] - Quote
Any tool which automates gameplay for you is currently considered against the rules. If you see what you suspect to be a market bot, please report it. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
|
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
209
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 14:07:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:Any tool which automates gameplay for you is currently considered against the rules. If you see what you suspect to be a market bot, please report it.
I know a guy (in fact I know many, so does CCP) who uses a macro to automate 30 mining bots at one time and so do you. You still ain't banned him and infact when mittens trolled him you actually took action to support and protect his botting. oh wait duplication is not automation? Then the majority of market tools are not automating mearly duplicating data supplied by CCP via market API.
Why provide barges massive HP if not to protect bots? How come you let lottery sites operate which are completely automated? Which tools specificaly are against the rules? Is a tool which alerts me that my order is no longer best price and then provides me with a figure to copy and paste into eve, legal?
None of these questions will be answered as CCP prefers grey areas when it comes to non RMT related botting. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
199
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 20:29:00 -
[63] - Quote
Deleted a rule breaking post. Please do not break the forum rules when posting.
21. Posting regarding RMT (Real Money Trading) is prohibited.
Posts discussing, linking to, or advertising RMT, including but not limited to the sale of in game items, assets, currency, characters or game accounts for real life money are strictly prohibited.
22. Post constructively.
Negative feedback can be very useful to further improve EVE Online provided that it is presented in a civil and factual manner. All users are encouraged to honestly express their feelings regarding EVE Online and how it can be improved. Posts that are non-constructive, insulting or in breach of the rules will be deleted regardless of how valid the ideas behind them may be. Users are also reminded that posting with a lack of content also constitutes non-constructive posting.
30. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.
CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, GÇ£outingGÇ¥ of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties.
Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts.
ISD Ezwal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Brewlar Kuvakei
Adeptio Gloriae Blue Sec
210
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 20:37:00 -
[64] - Quote
Since my last post was deleted for being a ''hard'' question I'll ask it again.
CCP Eterne,
1) Is a market tool which provides a copy and paste ready value to a market order via the EVE market API outside of client ELUA legal?
2) If said tool is not legal why are lottery sties which are fully automated ''botted'' allowed to exist?
3) Are tools which allow duplication of actions such as mining bots used by infamous eve players EULA legal?
4) Is CCP finally willing to publicly admit that botting in eve is fully legal as long as it remains in sensible bounds, is not RMT related and is not purposefully controlling the price of PLEX?
I ask the hard questions unlike all the CSM candidates. Kugutsumen - My signature insures that my post is always read by an ISD or Dev, does yours? |
Lux Imperator
Soimii Patriei Nulli Secunda
47
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 20:41:00 -
[65] - Quote
Check against mining and trade bots :
Random pop-up box that requests you to answer a quick random math question e.g 2+5 ? For trade, it appears only after multiple price updates within a given time frame. (I don't think that it should check for 0.01 ISK price changes because they can just modify the bots to do 0.02 ISk or something like that)
Mining bot : Each 20-30 minutes same box same thing.
The check can be skipped once and not answered within a maximum of 5 minutes (to not screw with miners in case they are attacked or something)
In 5 minutes the box can even disappear and no one is kicked from the game. That player is flagged for botting. Correlate this with some more infractions like this one and reporting from other players. CCP within one month can have a very big list of people automating the game.
Enjoy |
|
CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
2266
|
Posted - 2013.04.02 21:34:00 -
[66] - Quote
I have deleted a post discussing forum moderation that also contained rumor mongering. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
|
Oki Troom
The Dissolute
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 01:03:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:I have deleted a post discussing forum moderation that also contained rumor mongering.
DEATH TO THE RUMOR MONGERS! |
Oki Troom
The Dissolute
1
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 01:13:00 -
[68] - Quote
joyous the wrote:Oki Troom wrote:joyous the wrote:There's a few hardcore traders in Dodi, because it is, actually a pretty lucrative market if you have market dominance. You are a less productive trader competing against constant updaters. Many markets in Dodi aren't updated frequently outside of a few, which makes for the avid traders within to quickly cycle though their orders and efficiently update, since most wont require an update/ or a minimal scroll-wheel flick.
You've laid out why you're not good enough for this market. Deal with the facts. You'll know a bot when you see it, and you're still lookin.
"not saying its not possible to make money Station Trading, I am just saying that if something isn't done about the trading bots - it soon will be. Anyone who has been trading for any period of time will tell you that bots are getting worse."
-It'd hold a bit more clout if you're a notable Jita trader saying this, not a guy being outplayed in #3.
Not sure what you are contributing to the discussion here other than, you're not in Jita and so are not l33t enough to have an opinion. Thanks for your input... No, as someone who trades in Dodi, I'm giving you reasons why the people outbidding you are most likely not bots. And I'm saying you, a trader who can't compete in Dodi, claiming soon noone will be able to make money on the market is simply wrong and dumb.
Did you even read my post? Your response is full ******... |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
90
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 06:07:00 -
[69] - Quote
I have tried getting some focus on some actual practical solutions to the myth of bots.
As mentioned a lot in this thread and for many years now the population in Jita is what makes the bot problem myth persist. The frequency of trade is simply so high that people get the feeling its impossible to enter markets.
At the present we have very little good incentives to move off hub. I think its about time that MD, CSM and CCP took a closer look at ways to make this a more viable solution and also consider all the benefits from this.
First we need to talk about what limits players from moving out of hubs. The first one would be the obvious isk benefit.
I would suggest looking at broker fees and order limits.
If the base fee for adding orders was dynamically priced so smaller stacks became less and less profitable, then we would see a more efficient market and movement to seed outside hubs by smaller scaled traders. This would only be on sales, so it would really not be gamebreaking, and it would motive more market efficiency and saturation.
I would also suggest boosting the number of possible outstanding orders per skill, so a broader location based seeding would become a viable strategy for the tycoon traders. It would benefit the gameplay if there were more stacks of 5 ships in more stations, and less stacks of 100 getting 0.01 microbid.
The cost of putting up orders should scale to motivate the biggest stacks, and be modified by skill.
Modify order should be cost based on the station activity and thus be the base broker fee. Again this should increase on a mechanic similar to rental of offices, so it goes up in increments the higher the traded volume or total traded isk on the station.
Until something like this is introduced the discussion of market barrier of entry and botting myths will persist. I would hope CCP would seriously start considering a change so space and markets could be spread better.
|
Kara Books
Deal with IT.
478
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 06:24:00 -
[70] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:I have tried getting some focus on some actual practical solutions to the myth of bots.
As mentioned a lot in this thread and for many years now the population in Jita is what makes the bot problem myth persist. The frequency of trade is simply so high that people get the feeling its impossible to enter markets.
At the present we have very little good incentives to move off hub. I think its about time that MD, CSM and CCP took a closer look at ways to make this a more viable solution and also consider all the benefits from this.
First we need to talk about what limits players from moving out of hubs. The first one would be the obvious isk benefit.
I would suggest looking at broker fees and order limits.
If the base fee for adding orders was dynamically priced so smaller stacks became less and less profitable, then we would see a more efficient market and movement to seed outside hubs by smaller scaled traders. This would only be on sales, so it would really not be gamebreaking, and it would motive more market efficiency and saturation.
I would also suggest boosting the number of possible outstanding orders per skill, so a broader location based seeding would become a viable strategy for the tycoon traders. It would benefit the gameplay if there were more stacks of 5 ships in more stations, and less stacks of 100 getting 0.01 microbid.
The cost of putting up orders should scale to motivate the biggest stacks, and be modified by skill.
Modify order should be cost based on the station activity and thus be the base broker fee. Again this should increase on a mechanic similar to rental of offices, so it goes up in increments the higher the traded volume or total traded isk on the station.
Until something like this is introduced the discussion of market barrier of entry and botting myths will persist. I would hope CCP would seriously start considering a change so space and markets could be spread better.
These idea's... they are great. Population would simply have nothing to complain about and Jita overload would be fixed. There is only 1 thing that I can think against, gank squads will lose out on many many destroyed excess goods created ingame by players, because lets face it, the current economy almost counts on these goods being destroyed, although Im sure they will adapt along with every one else.
|
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0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
34
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 08:56:00 -
[71] - Quote
CCP Eterne wrote:Any tool which automates gameplay for you is currently considered against the rules. If you see what you suspect to be a market bot, please report it.
Hard Question was Hard. I'll ask it again with out breaking any forum rules.
A) Is a market tool that provides warning outside of eve of outdated market orders via API and provides a copy and pastable value to be entered manually into eve EULA legal?
B) Are tools which allow duplication of commands such as those used by infamous multi boxers EULA legal?
C) Does CCP have any plans to implement bans on botting and macro's which duplicate actions across multiple accounts that are not RMT related?
D) If automation is against EULA why are lottery sites allowed to operate with complete automation while trading in EVE ISK? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
170
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 09:24:00 -
[72] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:CCP Eterne wrote:Any tool which automates gameplay for you is currently considered against the rules. If you see what you suspect to be a market bot, please report it. Hard Question was Hard. I'll ask it again with out breaking any forum rules. A) Is a market tool that provides warning outside of eve of outdated market orders via API and provides a copy and pastable value to be entered manually into eve EULA legal? B) Are tools which allow duplication of commands such as those used by infamous multi boxers EULA legal? C) Does CCP have any plans to implement bans on botting and macro's which duplicate actions across multiple accounts that are not RMT related? D) If automation is against EULA why are lottery sites allowed to operate with complete automation while trading in EVE ISK? As you can't really expect average CCP employees to be well informed about their product, you are really asking the wrong person.
I'll give you what assistance I can, as a nerd who spends more time with the product than an average CCP employee.
A) That is EULA legal. However, it's pushing the envelope and probably shouldn't be EULA legal. CCP reserves the right to change it's mind on EULA legality at whim, so it's entirely possible that they may change their stance on this one in the future and there is some justification and some public support for that.
B) That is EULA legal. ISboxer and other broadcast tools have been specificially confirmed as EULA legal by CCP in recent forum posts. CCP reserves the right to change it's mind on EULA legality at whim, so it's entirely possible that they may change their stance on this one in the future and there is some justification and some public support for that.
C) That is already banned. Broadcasting human keypresses is EULA legal, broadcasting macro or code-generated keypresses is EULA illegal. It does not need to involve RMT for it to be EULA illegal, but if it does involve RMT it is still EULA illegal.
D) Lottery sites automate the capture of wallet transactions via the API. That is fully EULA legal and actively encouraged by CCP. The isk that is sent back to your wallet cannot be done with the API (at this time) and has to be manually transacted by a human in order for it not to be EULA illegal. Generally this is done manually but it is possible that some lottery and other services have decided to cross the EULA on this aspect and fully automate that process too. If they were to do so that would also be EULA illegal. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
170
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 09:31:00 -
[73] - Quote
I could get you citations from CCP or quote and rules-lawyer the EULA text at you to support what I've said above, but I don't think that is really needed. If you are really interested in the subject you should probably read the EULA and spend a little time with a search engine to get yourself fully informed. If you are just asking idle questions then you may want to just accept my answers as reasonably accurate and leave it at that. If you are asking the questions to poke at CCP, then I suggest you get a longer stick. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1259
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 09:31:00 -
[74] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal
bzzt, wrong.
Putting the right price in your clipboard? legit. it's not touching the client.
Opening the wallet order, that's client manipulation, not legit. There's no IGB function to do this, so you'd have to have the software manipulate eve directly. And that in no way is legit. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
5
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 09:35:00 -
[75] - Quote
Agreed with Mr Ronuken..
Elinor etc provide copy paste options outside the game, which you then have to find the correct order in your wallet for, open the modify, and paste it in.... (IMO Elinor is mostly for people who need to check whether they are making a profit, as it tracks margins for you, and less for keeping on top of orders, unless of course you have 305 station orders you are trying to follow constantly)
It is a whole other story if they open up the correct wallet order for modification for you. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
170
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 09:38:00 -
[76] - Quote
Steve Ronuken wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal bzzt, wrong. Putting the right price in your clipboard? legit. it's not touching the client. Opening the wallet order, that's client manipulation, not legit. There's no IGB function to do this, so you'd have to have the software manipulate eve directly. And that in no way is legit. You might want to consider not feeding the Brewlar. It may only seem like an unwanted scrap from your table at this point, but keep feeding him and soom he'll be on the table and licking your face. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1259
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 13:19:00 -
[77] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote:Steve Ronuken wrote:Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Some will even open the correct wallet order for you to do this. It's totally EULA legal bzzt, wrong. Putting the right price in your clipboard? legit. it's not touching the client. Opening the wallet order, that's client manipulation, not legit. There's no IGB function to do this, so you'd have to have the software manipulate eve directly. And that in no way is legit. You might want to consider not feeding the Brewlar. It may only seem like an unwanted scrap from your table at this point, but keep feeding him and soom he'll be on the table and licking your face.
You're right.
It's just: https://sslimgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png
Oh, and making sure someone doesn't get sucked in by the mistake and banned. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
35
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 14:07:00 -
[78] - Quote
Cool good to know that my ISK tool is EULA legal as long as I do all automation outside of the client and then just hit click ok click ok to rifle through my orders. |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 15:05:00 -
[79] - Quote
Market API features should be scrapped, I know most won't want that but currently the way things are its way to easy to abuse using macros...
Also people should move away from Jita and Amarr etc. Buy stuff in Jita and move it somewhere, seriously its a lot less hassle and much more rewarding, you just have to take the risk of hauling it! That's the point for risk there is reward. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
170
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 15:25:00 -
[80] - Quote
The 'missus quotes that one to me frequently.
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Amanda Hug'n'Kiss
Aggressive Marketing
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 15:43:00 -
[81] - Quote
Firstly, I am not a station trader and I have very little to do with Jita.
I also believe that market bots have been increasing as I see some very strange behavior on the markets and not just how quickly orders get adjusted.
I would like to think that CCP care enough about it's customers that they would want to stop the cheats and provide a fair game. Unfortunately I'm not sure that is true given the EVE University player who got banned for botting. Surely it would be easy to detect players who alter an inhuman amount of orders per minute. This bloke did it for several years and amount 100's of billions before he was detected.
I also agree that Market API features should be scrapped. If your competitors are using Market API features then to compete you need to learn how too. So add API features/3rd party apps to the learning curve for a new player wants to play the market.
Stop allowing the market to be automated, leave it as human vs human. Let intelligence, understanding, intuition and bravery to put your ISK on the line be what decides your profit/lose not how well you can code bots, cache scrappers or API facilities. |
0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 20:33:00 -
[82] - Quote
Amanda Hug'n'Kiss wrote:
I would like to think that CCP care enough about it's customers that they would want to stop the cheats and provide a fair game. Unfortunately I'm not sure that is true given the EVE University player who got banned for botting. Surely it would be easy to detect players who alter an inhuman amount of orders per minute. This bloke did it for several years and amount 100's of billions before he was detected.
Wrong the EVE uni player was banned for RMT. He was providing ISK via botting to other players which CCP took real offence too. I'm positive CCP could easily know that he was botting before but they simply do not care enough to even look. CCP has still not taken any action to detect botting with client end software detection or a VAC style program. CCP will however act when RMT is involved and they do have procedures to detect this and will simply insta ban anyone selling ISK they catch as it detracts from PLEX sales.
Make no mistake the dude was banned for RMT and not botting. As it stands botting is not even bannable unless you ignore at least 3 specific warnings and even then you'll more than likely get a time ban. Sell 1 isk for 1 cent and you'll get banned. |
Mila Chancel
Fungibility Inc.
6
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 20:43:00 -
[83] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:
Wrong the EVE uni player was banned for RMT. He was providing ISK via botting to other players which CCP took real offence too. I'm positive CCP could easily know that he was botting before but they simply do not care enough to even look. CCP has still not taken any action to detect botting with client end software detection or a VAC style program. CCP will however act when RMT is involved and they do have procedures to detect this and will simply insta ban anyone selling ISK they catch as it detracts from PLEX sales.
Make no mistake the dude was banned for RMT and not botting. As it stands botting is not even bannable unless you ignore at least 3 specific warnings and even then you'll more than likely get a time ban. Sell 1 isk for 1 cent and you'll get banned.
He was banned, but got to keep his iskies (whether due to oversight or not),after his ban he donated the iskies to Eve Uni, then CCP caught up with the removal of assets, and removed the assets from Eve-Uni, leading to much forum hilarity/raging
So, he was banned first, but didnt lose the isk
(Banned for, in Eve Unis words "... using the common tools available, as well as custom built tools, but never automating anything to do with the EVE client himself - the closest he ever got was probably to create custom in-game-browser pages to streamline his workflow, meaning he would log into an alt, and update around 30 orders a minute for 10-20 minutes at a time. ...")
CCPs Response: "1) John was botting. That is not even close to in dispute. 2) We committed an error in not removing the isk before it got to EVE-U. However we did rectify this problem and our logs show that it was discussed and approved prior to either them receiving the isk or petitioning. We apologized to EVE-U however the petition was escalated as high as it could be and the decision remained. We cannot typically share this information with them as it's really none of their business." |
0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 20:48:00 -
[84] - Quote
See this worries me if automation outside the client is bannable, are trade tools which provide figures for people to insert rapidly into market orders considered botting? Also if this is the case then when are all these lottery runners getting banned and all their isk seized? |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
95
|
Posted - 2013.04.03 20:54:00 -
[85] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:See this worries me if automation outside the client is bannable, are trade tools which provide figures for people to insert rapidly into market orders considered botting? Also if this is the case then when are all these lottery runners getting banned and all their isk seized?
CCP have already made it clear that anything that directly influence and change timesinks ingame is considered botting or automation and is not accepted.
How hard they will enforce this is anyones guess. Looking back to unholy rage I think they will be pretty strict ones they decide their policy and resulting actions.
I think a rather clear NULL TOLERANCE POLICY would be nice to get from CSM and CCP discussion, so we can have a clear detailed description of legality directly using examples from ingame history and current mechanics.
Basically using EVE history to show precedence cases and thus show the interpretation of the "LAW"
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0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 05:57:00 -
[86] - Quote
Unholy rage was an Anti-RMT campaign dressed up as an anti bot campaign and had nothing to do with directly targetting botting. The fact that RMT'rs use botting is just a coincidence. If you think anyone was perma banned in unholy rage for botting you are mistaken, each person banned in unholy rage was involved with RMT never forget that fact. |
Amanda Hug'n'Kiss
Aggressive Marketing
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 09:53:00 -
[87] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:Amanda Hug'n'Kiss wrote:
I would like to think that CCP care enough about it's customers that they would want to stop the cheats and provide a fair game. Unfortunately I'm not sure that is true given the EVE University player who got banned for botting. Surely it would be easy to detect players who alter an inhuman amount of orders per minute. This bloke did it for several years and amount 100's of billions before he was detected.
Wrong the EVE uni player was banned for RMT. He was providing ISK via botting to other players which CCP took real offence too. I'm positive CCP could easily know that he was botting before but they simply do not care enough to even look. CCP has still not taken any action to detect botting with client end software detection or a VAC style program. CCP will however act when RMT is involved and they do have procedures to detect this and will simply insta ban anyone selling ISK they catch as it detracts from PLEX sales. Make no mistake the dude was banned for RMT and not botting. As it stands botting is not even bannable unless you ignore at least 3 specific warnings and even then you'll more than likely get a time ban. Sell 1 isk for 1 cent and you'll get banned.
Well that's really sad (if true). Cheat the players, that's fine. Cheat the company, meet the ban hammer. |
Caleb Ayrania
TarNec
96
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 10:15:00 -
[88] - Quote
I am sure the 3 strikes is basically to avoid a lot of wasted issues with mistakes.
Starting a dialogue with warnings is a lot more effective on ccp time.
Also some might test tools or let themselves be lured into trying bots and automation. I think its perfectly good business sense to point out the practice is unacceptable and maybe save an income and potentially honest and good future player and ofc customer.
Just blatantly assuming greed and bias from ccp is very simplistic thinking.
What about exploits.. If exploiters gets warnings, why should botters not?
Justice and Rules always needs leniency.
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
173
|
Posted - 2013.04.04 10:33:00 -
[89] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:Just blatantly assuming greed and bias from ccp is very simplistic thinking. Indeed.
You can choose to assign evil designs and dark conspiracies to CCP if you wish, but the fact is they are a bunch of drunks in Iceland that create games for the enjoyment of others and need to earn money from that activity in order to remain drunk.
I for one identify with and fully approve of that. |
0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 10:58:00 -
[90] - Quote
Caleb Ayrania wrote:I am sure the 3 strikes is basically to avoid a lot of wasted issues with mistakes.
Starting a dialogue with warnings is a lot more effective on ccp time.
Also some might test tools or let themselves be lured into trying bots and automation. I think its perfectly good business sense to point out the practice is unacceptable and maybe save an income and potentially honest and good future player and ofc customer.
Just blatantly assuming greed and bias from ccp is very simplistic thinking.
What about exploits.. If exploiters gets warnings, why should botters not?
Justice and Rules always needs leniency.
Why is there no 3 strikes for RMT if that is the case? The answer is blatant greed on CCP's part. ''If it does not effect our profits then it's not a problem.''
War Dec dogging? Not a problem as bears provide profit.
Massive Barge HP to the point that some barges are actually viable for PVP, not a problem as bots and afkers provide profit.
RMT= massive problem as slight profit loss. |
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
179
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 11:05:00 -
[91] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:Why is there no 3 strikes for RMT if that is the case? Because different offences require different responses.
Assuming for the sake of argument that the only thing that prevents me from RMTing my isk fortune for some portion of the -ú42,000 that Wired claims I have scammed is that I will get perma-banned by CCP under their current policy.
Change that to a 3 strikes rule and I can happily RMT it all for what would amount to a temporary slap on the wrist and then continue playing the game.
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0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 11:44:00 -
[92] - Quote
Bad Bobby wrote: Change that to a 3 strikes rule and I can happily RMT it all for what would amount to a temporary slap on the wrist and then continue playing the game.
and that is exactly why botting is viable and some may argue pretty much mandatory untill you get to your second warning on each account. Botting should just equal an insta ban on all accounts.
Will never happen as botting effects honest players real life income unlike CCP's which is effected by RMT. CCP does not give 2 craps about it's player base and gladly throws them in front of train wrecks when ever it can to save some real life money for itself.
It would not even annoy me so much if CCP did not just throw money away on doomed FPS's on a near dead console and on an actuall WOW clone. They'd have made more money by burning dollars in metal barrels and selling the ash for paint. |
Naes Mlahrend
KINGS OF EDEN Sev3rance
82
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 12:19:00 -
[93] - Quote
Oki Troom wrote: Even the recently implemented email alert system takes about 2 minutes to receive notification and then change a price.
WTF is this and how do I set it up?
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
179
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 13:09:00 -
[94] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:and that is exactly why botting is viable and some may argue pretty much mandatory untill you get to your second warning on each account. Botting should just equal an insta ban on all accounts.
Will never happen as botting effects honest players real life income unlike CCP's which is effected by RMT. CCP does not give 2 craps about it's player base and gladly throws them in front of train wrecks when ever it can to save some real life money for itself. Could you explain to me what the source of your rage against botters is? Because although I fully agree that it should be stopped for the sake of fair play, I've never felt even vaguely impacted by it.
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OllieNorth
Recidivists Incorporated
229
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 15:35:00 -
[95] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:Bad Bobby wrote: Change that to a 3 strikes rule and I can happily RMT it all for what would amount to a temporary slap on the wrist and then continue playing the game.
and that is exactly why botting is viable and some may argue pretty much mandatory untill you get to your second warning on each account. Botting should just equal an insta ban on all accounts. Will never happen as botting effects honest players real life income unlike CCP's which is effected by RMT. CCP does not give 2 craps about it's player base and gladly throws them in front of train wrecks when ever it can to save some real life money for itself. It would not even annoy me so much if CCP did not just throw money away on doomed FPS's on a near dead console and on an actuall WOW clone. They'd have made more money by burning dollars in metal barrels and selling the ash for paint.
Mandatory for what? I don't bot, and I still have fun ingame. If I felt the need to 'keep up' with people maybe, but why bother? |
Rhivre
TarNec
34
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 15:40:00 -
[96] - Quote
WTF is this "Botting is pretty much mandatory"?
Show us on the dolly where the nasty bot hurt you. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
1269
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 15:55:00 -
[97] - Quote
One thing. Bots are now 2 strike. Not 3. Steve Ronuken for CSM 8 Handy tools and SDE conversions Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Noob Darius
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 21:29:00 -
[98] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:Stonkeep wrote:There are definitely bots and they are easy to spot if you have been trading for a while. Reporting them most of the time does not do anything to be honest. I have reported several in Amarr and nothing happened.
And no real trader in their right mind would continue to bid with only 0.01 ISK, especially when you are in a market pvp with someone else at that moment. I am talking purely of Buy orders tho, sell orders I do not care much.
If you are being constantly outbid .01 ISK even with using different methods of price manipulation you are definitely against a bot.
Here how it usually goes;
I put a buy order for item X for 460,000.00 ISK The bot outbids me with 460,000.01 ISK I than outbid the bot with 460,003.56 ISK ( totally random with usage of mouse wheel) The bot outbids me with 460,003.57 ISK I again change the order to 460,012.23 ISK (again mousewheel) The bot outbids yet again with 460,012.24 ISK (.01 again ) I get tired after a while and change the buy order to 470,000.00 ISK The bot outbids me 470,000.01 ISK.
This is a prime example of a bot. No player would go out of their way to type again the random number I generated with mousewheel and increasing it with only .01 ISK. It just does not make sense, especially if you are managing 100+ orders at a time.
Unfortunately, there quite a bit of people who uses these bots and they will straight out refuse that the behavior I just described is not a bot. Not much to do really. This dude is using a spreadsheet and a program tied into the market api. It's totaly EULA legal, the program automaticaly generates the .01 isk number, all he has to do is copy paste or click ok depending on the program he is using. The reason this macro is legal is that it in no way automates anything within the eve client. The user must manually click the ok on the order or copy and paste the number. With a good set up you can get this down to 4 keyboard commands ie ''q'' copy from spread ''w'' open eve client (or move mouse x distance), ''e'' double click order (or right adjust order) ''r'' paste/ enter. Now repeat 50 times every 15 mins while youu pvp on your null sec main.
Your sig line should read "ensure". |
Hrothgar Nilsson
Black Core Federation Black Core Alliance
282
|
Posted - 2013.04.05 22:18:00 -
[99] - Quote
Oki Troom wrote:For example, I update my by and sell orders several times a day and on anything with any volume my price gets under cut by 0.01 ISK by 3 or four other players within about 30 seconds. Now you don't need to tell me about obsessive game playing but this is too fast to be anything other than an automated trade. Even the recently implemented email alert system takes about 2 minutes to receive notification and then change a price. This seems completely normal, not sure why you think there's botting behind being undercut a few times within that time frame. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTzA_xesrL8 |
Aina Sasaki
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
436
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 19:33:00 -
[100] - Quote
I've run into some pretty absurd competition at times with people who update orders so fast that it seems hardly worth the effort for me, since the last thing I will do is camp the market doing constant updates. I have better things to do.
My solution was to find better items to trade, which have less competition, or that have volumes so high that my orders will fill/sell no matter how many 0.01 ISK fools are playing with it. - Rei |
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ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
200
|
Posted - 2013.04.06 21:26:00 -
[101] - Quote
I've deleted some unwanted posts. Please people discussing the topic is fine, assuming what CCP does or does not do without hard facts is not.
30. Abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers is prohibited.
CCP operate a zero tolerance policy on abuse of CCP employees and ISD volunteers. This includes but is not limited to personal attacks, trolling, GÇ£outingGÇ¥ of CCP employee or ISD volunteer player identities, and the use of any former player identities when referring to the aforementioned parties.
Our forums are designed to be a place where players and developers can exchange ideas in a polite and friendly manner for the betterment of EVE Online. Players who attack or abuse employees of CCP, or ISD volunteers, will be permanently banned from the EVE Online forums across all their accounts with no recourse, and may also be subject to action against their game accounts.
31. Rumor mongering is prohibited.
Rumor threads and posts which are based off no actual solid information and are designed to either troll or annoy other users will be locked and removed. These kinds of threads and posts are detrimental to the wellbeing and spirit of the EVE Online Community, and can create undue panic among forum users, as well as adding to the workload of our moderators.
ISD Ezwal Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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Hannah Achasse
The Scope Gallente Federation
39
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 04:45:00 -
[102] - Quote
Brewlar Kuvakei wrote:There is also a lot of macro EULA legal software that can update 100's of market orders every 2 mins that is totally legit in the game rules.
"John" from EVE-U disagrees with this. |
0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 11:24:00 -
[103] - Quote
Let me ask that awkward question in a forum legal way.
Why does CCP feel it's OK to provide a botter with 3 written warnings before taking any action against a single account where a RMT ISK seller does not get a single warning before having multiple accounts banned?
I put it to the forum it is becaise the Botter harms the player base where as the RMT dude supports the player base but harms CCP by providing cheap ISK. |
Rhivre
TarNec
40
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 11:31:00 -
[104] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:Let me ask that awkward question in a forum legal way.
Why does CCP feel it's OK to provide a botter with 3 written warnings before taking any action against a single account where a RMT ISK seller does not get a single warning before having multiple accounts banned?
I put it to the forum it is becaise the Botter harms the player base where as the RMT dude supports the player base but harms CCP by providing cheap ISK.
Well.... I would hazard a guess that RMTers are selling items which do not belong to them, whereas a bot is automating gameplay.
Both harm the player base, but only one is actually profiting from goods/services which are not theirs to sell. RMTers affect the player base in the same way floods of cheap money or goods affect any economy. |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
185
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 14:19:00 -
[105] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:Let me ask that awkward question in a forum legal way.
Why does CCP feel it's OK to provide a botter with 3 written warnings before taking any action against a single account where a RMT ISK seller does not get a single warning before having multiple accounts banned?
I put it to the forum it is becaise the Botter harms the player base where as the RMT dude supports the player base but harms CCP by providing cheap ISK. Because different offenses require different responses.
Botters harm CCP too, because a botter will consume more resources than a normal player while paying the same subscription.
RMTers harm the players too, because with real money comes real crimes such as hacking. |
0Lona 0ltor
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
36
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 16:21:00 -
[106] - Quote
So how about CCP taking botting seriously and making it a one occurrence and multiple account ban punishment such as RMT is treated?
The only answer to that is CPP finds small scale botting within the rules and you should only stop if warned to do so. I'm happy with this as long as CCP says so in the EULA. As it stands CCP is in breach of their own EULA by not enforcing a ban on botting.
If CCP breaks the EULA daily then why should players not? |
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
186
|
Posted - 2013.04.07 16:43:00 -
[107] - Quote
0Lona 0ltor wrote:The only answer to that is CPP finds small scale botting within the rules That is clearly not the only answer, that's just the only one you've written.
They could be working with limited resources and therefore they may have to prioritise some things over others. This is not an uncommon feature of running a business. Maybe this is an answer?
Maybe they genuinely feel that botting is a less serious offence than RMT and are therefore giving a proportionate response. This is not an uncommon feature of rules enforcement. Maybe this is an answer?
Given that both of those are more likely, more logical, more reasonable and more in line with CCP's public statements on these matters, I have to wonder why you would choose an unlikely, illogical, unreasonable and inflamatory interpretation instead. |
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