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Ivanav Soulsteal
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Posted - 2003.07.26 18:31:00 -
[31]
Hmm I have never considered cap drainage a hostle act. That is how we used to discurage can theves before the secure cans were out.
first off you can not be farther then 2000 from the person. Secondly it drains slowly its not like you turn it on and the other guys cap is dead. And of course the draner must lock onto the drainee.
So, to beat this.
1. As soon as you see someone approching you move off. You want to do this anyway for optimal range if a sneek attack is iminent.
2. If you are locked, lock back
3. Jam the person targeting you. If you set your ship to orbit 2001km and jam they will never be able to drain you much less target you.
Also there is one other thing you can do. Buts I will save that for later.
I would hate to see the techniques fall into the wrong gands too soon as it seems our nutralize the can thief technique has.
And so it begins.... |
GunnyP
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Posted - 2003.07.26 18:32:00 -
[32]
I had a megathron come up and drain the cap on my iteron 4 today. I was then podded by Femme Fatal of (Harrr) corp. Shintai of (Core) was driving the Megathron. Go here to see the screen.
http://tti.fragland.net/forums/viewtopic.php?p=43341
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Striker IV
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Posted - 2003.07.26 18:33:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Striker IV on 26/07/2003 18:34:13
cap draining should be a hostile act, although once the shots are flying it is a VERY good way to keep your enemies down.
just like the stasis, and webby, they fixed it, soon they can fix this as well.
Team work is essential... It gives the other team something ELSE to shoot at!
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Shintai
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Posted - 2003.07.26 18:34:00 -
[34]
Tehel Necrona, just come to 0.0 space where CONCORD donŠt interfere ;d
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Endureth
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Posted - 2003.07.26 18:47:00 -
[35]
3) Shintai come over in his Megathron battleship and drained the cap of the Taggart Apocalypse battleship
I imagine that took quite a while. I mean a battleship must have a helluva lot of cap. Why did you just sit there why he drained you?
That just sounds stupid to me.
-E
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Mask
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Posted - 2003.07.26 18:49:00 -
[36]
Sorry
I donŠt quite understand why this isnŠt considered an exploit. A player has found a loophole by which they can take advantage of another without fear of reprisal.
But my oppinion isnŠt the one that matters, lets examine the official definition.
CCP definition (as part the exploits vs scams post):
2) An exploit is when someone takes advantage of a bypass in normal game mechanics, allowing him to take advantage of you without you having any means of preventing it whatsoever. When this occurs, we implore you to contact your friendly neighbourhood GM/Support Team as soon as possible, to allow them to investigate the incident, prevent it from happening to anyone else, and possibly reimburse you for your loss.
Good luck TTI
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Ends
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Posted - 2003.07.26 18:52:00 -
[37]
Ok, so you have made war Shin, fine. Hiding your reason for doing so and seeking war based upon poorly functioning game mechanics as opposed to skill is weak. Just lost all respect for you.
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Princess Akmazara
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Posted - 2003.07.26 19:03:00 -
[38]
In 1.0 space this is an obvious exploit. I saw someone in local chat today complain they were killed for webbing a can robber. Concord came and destroyed his ship. If webbing is hostile then cap draining sure is. Especially when used like this.
I guess my real question is why doesn't Coretech declare war on TTI of Shintai feels theres no exploit here? Expose all your ship to TTI. I saw the TTI man say they can't declare a war because of a bug but surely you can?
Shintai has a 9.9 security rating I checked yet he is obviously a PK'er by default. Even if he isn't doing the actual shooting he's facilitating it. He is as guilty as Femme Fatal, maybe moreso, because he's using his good standing with Concord to exploit this cap drain deal.
I'm not a big fan of TTI at all they are snooty and arrogant but I think they have a right to be mad.
Princess Akmazara
Amarrian Empire
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Shintai
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Posted - 2003.07.26 19:06:00 -
[39]
CoreTech is already in 3 wars ;d
So you canŠt declare more, and Femme is training Social skill and ethic relations so i can. Read the other posts.
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
V'cassLord Daeth
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Posted - 2003.07.26 19:13:00 -
[40]
This post is pretty funny/retarded! Anyone that gets their bs cap drained, has to be afk mining, as their is no way that you can get cap drained from ships more that 1800-2000m? And it does not drain very quickly. This tactic should only be useful/applicable in a situtation were the prey/enemy is already low in cap. Anyone that is drained from a full cap down to the point of inability for defensive action, deserves what they get! Especially in a bs with uber cap! Especially from a corp that preaches that they are so intelligent and mighty as TTI (extreme sarcasm). Lets stop the whining and afk minning and strip mining in safe space, which is noob space.
Honestly i'm glad ccp hasn't fixed this one, people in large/established corps should have better organization. I find it utterly rediculous that you lost a bs so to this method of attack, shame on you. How pray tell does an enemy drive right up beside you, likely bumped into you, lock onto you, and proceed to drain an entire battleships energy cap down to complete and utter defenselessness??? The only plausible explanations? Not present in game??? Afk people deserve what they get, you aren't playing the game, your sitting there dead in the water, why i ask, shouldn't someone teach you a lesson? Don't be so lazy...and if mining is so boring that you can't watch anymore, find another method of making money with your bs...like umm...killing ncp pirates for cash and melt down the goods. All you need is an indy and a bs to do that efficiently. This is classic carebear speak here guys....And i find it hard to believe that you were jammed and webified, when in your initial post you completely gave no indication of such actions. Stop trying to save face when you obviously got caught whith your pants down. If you lost assets its your own fault, its not like you were ambushed in a noob ship. Empire space should not equal = TTI afk strip mining space.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.26 19:18:00 -
[41]
Edited by: j0sephine on 26/07/2003 19:20:07
"TTI will NOT counter this by doing the same thing as the corps that attack us."
Then perhaps rather than focusing your efforts on the "nerf nerf nerf" chants, demand to have the bug with war declarations/ resolutions fixed?
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Roark
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Posted - 2003.07.26 19:18:00 -
[42]
V'cass, Comment removed, flaming - Wrangler. Nobody in TTI AFK mines in a battleship. It takes only a few seconds before 8 mining lasers fill the hold.
Nor has anyone in TTI lost a battleship. Not even to this lame cap-draining tactic.
TTI, like pretty much any other corp out there, keeps AFK miners on alternate accounts mining in empire space. If you lose an industrial, big deal. It's worth about 2 loads, so hardly a risk.
Roark - Taggart Transdimensional - www.taggarttd.com |
Femme Fatal
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Posted - 2003.07.26 19:22:00 -
[43]
Shesh TTI surpises me, one would think with such 'strict' recruitment that they would atleast filter out the illiterate.
If any had actually read my post you would have had the reason for this entire thing sitting right there. Im sure Shintai wanted to fire just as much as you guys, but -> Social Skill. Anyway..
To those people not quite schooled on ship setups... you can still warp when you have 0 cap, and a mining Industrial does not fit MWDs. Therefore it makes no difference wether you can "proove" that your industrial was drained because I was scrambling him, and had a stasifier equipped (and those two items in his med slots were clearly ABs). Suffice to say he did not have a warpcore equipped either. This means wether a battleship drained him or not is a moot point, but whatever. 
I sadly cannot view the attachment of my sexy self, yet im sure you got me at a wrong angle. I would also like to send my deepest sympathy to the TTI pilot who tried to webifie Shintai after my departure, I hope Concord did not take him apart to badly.
In an end note, I would also like to thank my family and friends for being there for me during this rough time. Especially little bobby who wants to be just like his big sister when he's all grown up....
Toodaloo
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Reddari
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Posted - 2003.07.26 19:35:00 -
[44]
There are different cap modules... one is for DRAINING cap from another ship.. clearly an offensive weapon
Then we have other modules who TRANSFER cap to targeted ship.. this is clearly a friendly weapon!
How can you say that cap draining could be done in a friendly manner...
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DROP - we didn't cut it
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.26 19:42:00 -
[45]
"one is for DRAINING cap from another ship.. clearly an offensive weapon"
Not necessarily; note it can be equally well used to merely 'stun' the aggressor leaving them with no resources to attack. This would make it just a handy mean of defense, wouldn't it?..
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var'ulfur
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Posted - 2003.07.26 19:47:00 -
[46]
cowards are all the same they hid behind words after the dirty deed is done.BUT this tactic should only work ounce. and you as a corp must remeber that a pirate the dirty cowards they are will only hit targets that are the least protected. i sugest you get a security guy that knows better tactics. good hunting
wolf |
Dagny
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Posted - 2003.07.26 19:52:00 -
[47]
"Not necessarily; note it can be equally well used to merely 'stun' the aggressor leaving them with no resources to attack. This would make it just a handy mean of defense, wouldn't it?.."
Funny that, if you do attack someone they are free to defend themselves. Thus it is not an offensive action per say. However, doing the offensive initial action using this, should not be considered defense. And if attack is the best defense, then it should be marked as an attack.
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V'cassLord Daeth
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Posted - 2003.07.26 20:03:00 -
[48]
Edited by: V'cassLord Daeth on 26/07/2003 20:16:33
Edited by: V'cassLord Daeth on 26/07/2003 20:13:02
who's the idiot, the person that uses a lame tactic, or the one who gets sucked into it....i know i've never let someone bump into me and drain my cap...nor have i heard of it happening to anyone else..before this. lol  Hard to believe, "you were all there" when a leech came along and slowly, so pitifully slowly drains down your cap....not really dangerous as, you can warp out as soon as it starts, and as long as you don't fire nothing can happen. Furthemore, while in empire space the little leech can't fire on you either. If he does, concord will insta kill him, and within minutes you can fix it with your med/heavy armour and hull repair at the next station, which is not far in empire space. This is not a high priority issue, i wouldn't expect a fix on this one for a very long time.
However I agree this is a lame tactic, mostly its lame however, because it should be nearly impossible to ever pull it off in a manner that causes any real strategic gains for the perpatrator. What is truly lame is that it caused any problems at all. It seems that this incident is more a "pain in the ass" than anything. Its rather of humourus, someone keeps coming along wherever you go, draining your cap, like miserable little mosquitos, and you can't even slap them back, save the gods come and stike you down. However, this is only minor annoyance at best, i do not see this as a major problem in the game. The easy fix is to warp to another system/droyd field. Of course you will say, why should i have to... its an offensive action! Possibly/probably, but all he is really doing is making it impossible to mine,(in that particular place and sec level.) I think this tactic was employed more as a joke, to see if you'd blow yourself up by shooting back, than anything truly malevoloent!!!
Another thing is that if eveyone hadn't whined so much about making empire space, riskless space, you would have no problem dealing with this problem now. Of course you could also argue, that cpp, should be more thourough when they implement changes, you may be right, but the current role of concord in game was never a meant to be so stongarmish, players where intended to be more organized and proactive against offensive players. however concord in its present state likely won't remain for long, now that most people realize how greatly it dirupts the game dynamics.
Finally, lets get serious! If nothing really happened, and you got out just fine? Whats the big deal? It's one thing to post a warning to fellow players, but this was, "cry exploit", And this module isn't always used as a weapon, it can also be used as a way to gain energy from your fellow members. Hence, the close proximity of useage. Only solution would be make it recognized as an offensive tactic when not used on corp or gang members.
I wonder if the "energy neutralizer", which functions at 12,000m(instead of <2000m), can be used in empire space. This one is easily a black and white issue as its only purpose is offensive. A little nicer too, as you can use it at a range, close to optimal for weapons turrents.
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.26 20:10:00 -
[49]
"However, doing the offensive initial action using this, should not be considered defense. And if attack is the best defense, then it should be marked as an attack."
The somewhat tricky part about the energy neutralizers in question is, activating them drains the cap of both the target and the ship using it in comparable amounts (unless one is using the NPC modules afaik)
And i still can't help but find the root of the problem being the bug with how the war declarations are handled, not this cap drain not being a crime thing. Wouldn't it do the game much more good if you chose to insist on having the really serious issues fixed first?..
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eriq
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Posted - 2003.07.26 20:45:00 -
[50]
i think that regardless whether two corps are at war legally or not 1.0 space should mean that concord rips you a new one if you attack someone. the rules should not change.
also, if you are draining the cap of another ship it is an offensive move and the same rules that apply to targeting and webifying should apply.
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Drutort
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Posted - 2003.07.26 21:08:00 -
[51]
yup i have to agree, this is lame and too bad CCP didnt see this before, pretty much any thing that you do to another ship that harms them in anyway should be same as attacking them.
I do not see why CCP doesnt see this as being that simple.
and ya it is lame using other ppl to attack that are not at war with and using this "exploit" and it clearly is, very big advantage that should not be there in the first place because of a game flaw.
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Quantum Gopher
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Posted - 2003.07.26 21:19:00 -
[52]
I agree with the aspect of capacitor draining of another ship as being an agressive act. It causes a loss to the other ship, just as a webifier causes a loss of velocity and a scrambler causes a loss of warp capability. Capacitor draining causes a loss of any function that depends on sufficient power. If a simple cargo scan is considered hostile, surely causing a loss of power would be too..?
Draining the cap of a ship heavily engaged in fighting npc pirates, thereby allowing the pirates to kill that ship would be a good example of a grief tactic utilizing the cap drain function.
Q. Gopher
__________
I know...it's only ROCK and roll, but I like it!! |
Intruders
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Posted - 2003.07.26 21:51:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Intruders on 26/07/2003 21:54:11
Energy drain is not considered an attack? wow!
Maybe there is some window of opportunity for some chaos to be caused before they fix this.
I suggest they shouldnt.. muhehe
>:
The guy that was attacked wasnt the same one who posted that corp. wars can make piracy look like a walk in the park and that he is CEO at such a corp? Then he goes out whining about someone drained his energy?
Something is wrong here.
Every man lives..but not every man dies!
My sig sux |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.07.26 21:51:00 -
[54]
Warp jamming and webifying are considered a hostile act so it makes sense that cap draining should be too.
I preferred it when webifying and warp jamming weren't hostile acts, anyway.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Shintai
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Posted - 2003.07.26 21:54:00 -
[55]
Remember ECM is not hostile either ;)
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Intruders
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Posted - 2003.07.26 21:57:00 -
[56]
So you can actually counter an energy drain attack or a webify for rendering the target unable to lock you right?
Every man lives..but not every man dies!
My sig sux |
Shintai
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Posted - 2003.07.26 22:02:00 -
[57]
Right, unless the the other side got ECCM pods.
Abstraction and Transcendence: Nature, Shintai, and Geometry |
Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2003.07.26 22:06:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Joshua Calvert on 26/07/2003 22:11:54
Electronic Counter Measures and Cap Draining fall into the grey area between hostility and defense.
You cannot directly destroy a ship with ECM or Cap Draining but they can be used to allow a ship to be damaged more easily.
Perhaps more emphasis should be made on who targets who first.
P.S: If TTI are at war with 3 corps but those wars aren't active why don't they surrender the useless wars so they can wage war on who they like?
Is it a maximum limit of 3 wars, regardless of whoever else declares war upon you?
Possible get-out clause for chicken corps.......
P.P.S: I do not conconde any pirate activity (except for the real terms of making the game more immersive) but TTI come across as such arrogant tossers I can't blame Femme Fatale for seeking to destroy them just because they're the biggest.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Athule Snanm
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Posted - 2003.07.26 22:08:00 -
[59]
I would tend to see cap draining as an offensive action for sure, and if it was used I'd say that this comes close to being an exploit. Also I can't really see why wars aren't reciprocal - 3 war limit or not.
_______________________________
Doomheim - EVE's only hygiene! |
Femme Fatal
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Posted - 2003.07.26 22:19:00 -
[60]
I actually also think that cap draining fall under the same category as stasifying and scrambling (and ECM)(which was used against Shintai by TTI)
Yet if they should be taken out from 0.0 is another issue. But yes, it should be all or nothing.
For those screaming exploit, it isnt one, and no I dont plan on using this in the future, it was just a temporary.. arrangement.
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