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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
nono
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Posted - 2003.07.28 14:06:00 -
[1]
Since I can't reply to the topic it only allows me to start a topic....
Just what happens now to the GAZILLIONS of copies that are already in the game?
I see a mad scramble to copy everything in site until this this little gem hits TQ.
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Will McBlack
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Posted - 2003.07.28 14:57:00 -
[2]
The # of items that can be created from a copy currently is set at 300... Changing the current copies from Indefinite to 300 seems ok to me :) Afterall they are copies and are therefore of inferior quality.
Death to the BP-Copies!! 
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nono
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Posted - 2003.07.28 15:21:00 -
[3]
Any news on the existing copies though Will?
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Will McBlack
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Posted - 2003.07.28 15:26:00 -
[4]
Nope, I am not sure how CCP is gonna cope with the existing copies. On Chaos the existing copies show: Indefinite amounts of items/ships can be produced from that copy. New copies have the max of 300. I'd recon CCP will change all existing 'indefinite' copies to 300. But that is only a guess... I dont know what they will do 
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nono
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Posted - 2003.07.28 15:30:00 -
[5]
Thanks for the quick reply. I still forsee many many many copies being pumped out now in haste before this hits TQ. As if there's not enough already.
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Askari
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Posted - 2003.07.28 15:51:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Askari on 28/07/2003 15:51:39
I personally think there should be no upper limit to how many production runs can be done on a copied BP, 300 seems a bit small.
What if i want to make a copy so another corp who i am partnered with can make unlimited items? Do they have to ask me for a new copy every few weeks? (obviously, 300 for ships is a lot, 300 for ammo and missiles is nothing)
----------------
~= Askari =~
Urza's Factory
http://www.mikeward.uk.com/urzas
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nono
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Posted - 2003.07.28 16:45:00 -
[7]
Askari.
I see your point but first you have to get an answer as to why in the infinate wisdom of the great ones they decided to take the two copy limit off the BP's in the first place.
The only one I've seen say this isn't the problem so far is Jash. Then again there are lots of posts I could have missed.
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Virulence
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Posted - 2003.07.28 17:11:00 -
[8]
the licensing thing makes sense as a charge per item made by the licensee but the fact that a BLUEPRINT becomes unusable is retarded. its a blueprint dammit not a toothbrush. you should be able to set a license fee per batch made with a bp so for example, on a maller bp, i could charge 15000 isk per batch made. so the bp is always usable, as it should be, but everytime one of the batches are made, the 15k would go to me.
shadows and dust |
Will McBlack
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Posted - 2003.07.28 17:23:00 -
[9]
Askari, 300 runs on ammo still is 30k on ammo ... I know it burns quickly but I suppose it gives the manufacturers actually the chance to sell their ammo or their copied BPs.
As for the uselessness of copied BPs when their license amount has been reached... In my twisted world copied BPs are subjected to deterioration. When I have an Original I put it away in a glass zero-entropy chamber so it only gets destroyed in an accident or the end of time 
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.28 17:29:00 -
[10]
"What if i want to make a copy so another corp who i am partnered with can make unlimited items? Do they have to ask me for a new copy every few weeks?"
I'd figure it's actually a good thing, even if quite a bit of inconvenience at the same time. Relationships of all kinds often go sour despite the best intentions....
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Endureth
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Posted - 2003.07.28 17:46:00 -
[11]
Will there be a limit on the amount of items a BP copy can be set to produce. I mean can't you just imagine the deals in the trade channel now?
"WTS Thorax BP copy able to produce 75,000 Thoraxes! Get yours today, only 25 million!"
It will be a good thing when it first comes out but this too will eventually be driven into the ground by those who just want their quick buck and could care less about a long term market.
-E
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nono
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Posted - 2003.07.28 17:53:00 -
[12]
Endureth.
You didn't read anything in this thread did you?
The answer is there in several posts already.
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Diana Merris
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Posted - 2003.07.28 19:43:00 -
[13]
I am thrilled they are going to put the limit in. I thought they had given up on the idea after some of the comments when it was first mentioned.
I do hope they limit all the existing copies.
While 300 may be a little low for ammo its not like the ammo BPs are expensive. For modules that should be plenty of units to make back the cost of the copy and still make a profit.
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Sarf
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Posted - 2003.07.28 21:31:00 -
[14]
This will suck, that means all the BP copys we have been buying will now be worthless after a few weeks use.
We partenered with a few other small corps to buy a MOA BP and then passed out copies to all members. we are now resurching up the original and plan to distribute copys again. this means we will never be done copying as we aggreed to full copies at the start.
The only way this change will be fair is if they make all existing copies remain unlimited or convert them all to originals.
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KillCreep
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Posted - 2003.07.28 22:21:00 -
[15]
Edited by: KillCreep on 28/07/2003 22:21:53
About being the limit being "unrealistic" - the word licensing is the key.
For example, today some specialized software is sold in packages, you can install 5 copies in your companys network and you cannot use more than 5 - that limit is coded into the software.
So, nothing speaks against introducing such a limit in a BP copy of yours. The limitation is not of technical, but of legal nature.
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Beseb
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Posted - 2003.07.28 23:11:00 -
[16]
Sarf, re-read this thread and re-think what you said.
It appears that in a worse case scenario, existing copies will be grandfathered with 300 builds. 300 Moa's is a pretty damn good return on investment isn't it?
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Dan Forever
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Posted - 2003.07.29 00:02:00 -
[17]
I think the limit on ships should be slightly less and the limit on ammo slightly more. Yes I know many players are annoyed because they bought copies in the knowledge that they were infinate but the economy needs changes to prevent it from collapse and these changes are a step in the right direction
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KillCreep
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Posted - 2003.07.29 00:09:00 -
[18]
If they will make the old copies just orginals (which you cannot copy) the economy will just continue to collapse, there are already way to much copies there.
If they had made such a chage in the first two weeks they could probably have done this, but not now.
The volume has to be less than 300 - the module market exept certain BS guns and ammo is dead anyway, 300 volume copies of cruisers will last ages. It would change nothing.
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Dr Fritz
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Posted - 2003.07.29 01:13:00 -
[19]
This is one of the most exciting changes to blueprints I've read since I started playing Eve. I have bought copies and originals and thought that copies were way over powered.
The copy copy limit refered to in the manual was artificial, but at least it had some balance. I am in favor of my copies getting restrictions. Sure, I bought a copy thinking unlimited, but in actual game play, it isn't working. The Eve economy isn't working. (Unless I want to hunt pirates or mine.)
I see this as a great step in a positive direction and hope CCP continues balancing the blueprints.
-Fritz
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Zaphod Robotnik
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Posted - 2003.07.29 01:43:00 -
[20]
I would love to see all existing copies in the game restricted to the "new" maximum of 300. Currently copies are being used in a role that I believe CCP would have envisaged Original BP's to take.
Copies should not have been or be a substitute for the Real Thing (tm)
--
Zaphod "Zaprobo" Robotnik
President, Royal Communication Department
http://eve.britishspacecorps.co.uk/http://eve.britishspacecorps |
Praetorion
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Posted - 2003.07.29 02:06:00 -
[21]
A limit on copies means that once again, the little guy is pushed out of the arena. No decent sized corp will buy anything but an original as even 300 copies will be burned through in a few weeks. Hell, some of our ships in EV we make 10 a day of easy. On ammo, we burn up 300 runs a day easily on the major types just on the free stuff we stock the combat hangars with. Drones, missiles? All of that is a retardly low number (300). I make at least that many drones to hand out to the miners a week since the last patch (were they screwed up pirate AI).
How does this effect the little guys? One, some BP copies are very hard to find of the ammo types, if not impossible at this point. What happens when their copies run out? They are screwed. What happens when the small ship makers burn up their copies? They can't exactly afford to keep reinvesting in copies, nor can they really afford the originals.
CCP needs to grandfather existing copies as infinite, and start this system with any copies made /after/ the patch as having a limit, or they will be screwing over a very large number of their already dwindling player base. Does that make existing copies more valuable? Sure, but that is easily worked into the economy without screwing anyone over, instead their position is improved and they receive this arguably needed change happily instead of with account cancelation, and the long term benefits of copy limits will work them selves into game play as time marches on.
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EaglesFire
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Posted - 2003.07.29 04:15:00 -
[22]
How is it screwing people over?!
The small corps should NOT (repeat NOT) be able to produce as much, or the same high end items as large corps!
This is a GOOD change. It will force smaller corps into streamlining into making 1 or 2 things, and buying the rest from other corps.
Yes, prices on items will go up, but items are way too cheap right now. The market needs a good kick.
This game is NOT ment to be fair to all people who play it. It is biased to the large corp, just like real life. You don't see a small corp in the real world making cars, do ya? No, why, because it costs alot. Unlimited BP copies make it too way too easy in this game for the smaller corp.
"Knowledge is power, and the uninformed SHALL be punished!"
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Praetorion
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Posted - 2003.07.29 04:59:00 -
[23]
Actually the game is about making real cash for CCP, and one method makes alot of people angry, but puts in a needed change. The other path keeps most people happy, and puts in a needed change. The need for the change is not being argued, the implimentation is.
That is what we call a, "No Brainer" in the business world, you know, the real world?
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Varsuuk
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Posted - 2003.07.29 07:12:00 -
[24]
I have only one REAL prob with this, I AGREE we need to kill the rampant copying (I havent sold a single one ;P I hate that 'feature') but I had to buy several (r trade in most case) ammo ones cos they are CHEAP and not enuf on market.
If this is done, perhaps they can reseed more origs of lower end stuff at WAY higher pricing?
like 100, 1K, 10Kx orig price whatever? I mean bad enuf u can get MWD bps anymore but no ammo bps???
EVEN if ppl actually don't try to choke u buy not selling ammo copies (limited runs) and ammo sales is just not worth the mining for most or much ammo - the TIME SINK constantly trying to buy ammo BP copies for only 30K of amm (I stock 10-20K per run) of ammo I CANNOT get a bp for is a pain :(
I want to play not live on Trade channel (btw, hope these copies can go on market or it will be even MORE hell ;))
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Rathas
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Posted - 2003.07.29 10:58:00 -
[25]
My only concern with this is that the copies on the test server that were copied before the change was made are set to "unlimited" builds which seems to indicate that anyone with a copy of a blueprint will not have a copy that is just as good as an original BP which still makes a mockery of the entire system - there is now at a guess over 100 BS copies on the system which is whats mainly whats making a mockery some corps have 4-5 BP's brought for under 1 billion when those that have brought a heavyer version battleship original have spent over a billion for the production of 1 type of battleship, I realise this still sucks if they killed the copys altogether but at least set the battlership copies at say 50, the crusers at 100 and frigates at 200 - this way they will wear out but the corps will still get value for money (maybe even less than that as they will still be able to make enough profit to buy the originals)
anyway my 2 isk
BSC, Chief Tactical Officer
"All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us...they can't get away this time"
- Lt Gen Lewis B. Puller |
Glowing Star
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Posted - 2003.07.29 11:17:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Glowing Star on 29/07/2003 11:20:17
Again I will suggest my idea, if a copy has been used up, it can be reloaded, in less than a minute by doing a bp update job using the orgininal... That way as long as the person you brought the copy from, is nice you will get a faily cheap refresh. This will require cpp to do some coding so i doubt it will happen.. although it cant be that hard to have a line that says, look for all copies in hanger, and set they copy amount to 300.. when you chose the correct drop down..
This will allow people to get the 'license' for use of the bp etc, of course you cant touch up a bp that is a higher mineral level than the master.
Please point out the flaws in this solution if there are any. |
j0sephine
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Posted - 2003.07.29 11:31:00 -
[27]
"What happens when the small ship makers burn up their copies? They can't exactly afford to keep reinvesting in copies, nor can they really afford the originals."
Uhmm.. they simply have to sell the products at prices which, after selling the 300 units they can produce from a single copy, makes them enough money to at least afford getting another copy?..
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2003.07.29 11:40:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Tharrn on 29/07/2003 11:41:08
To answer a question from higher above:
A Dev said they dropped the two-copies-per-original rule because copies would become worthless when people research their originals, which then become more effective than the copies. This argument is totally void and utter crap because:
1. you can make an unlimited number of copies from the *researched* BP.
2. Research doesn't do much. Two to five rounds of mineral efficiency and you are set, as every further step isn't doing much. The initial drop from a wastage factor of 0.1 to 0.05 is mostly enough - another step to 0.025 if you feel like it and the next 0.016 is already pretty useless. Researching production time is a waste of valuable *copying time* beacuse it lowers the production time by seconds or at most a few minutes.
I hope that originals will *not* drop after the licensing - dropping copies worth a couple of production runs appears to be the way to go for me. Originals should be introduced via the storyline *only*.
The existing copies (and yes, we have a couple we depend on, too) should be severly limited - 300 is way to high for ship and equipment Blueprints. 10-50 sounds more like it to me. Why? Because then and only then the ridicolous fact that everyone and his dog can manufacture all he needs without *ever* having to buy from other players (multiplayer... *wink, wink, nudge, nudge*) will be corrected.
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Glowing Star
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Posted - 2003.07.29 12:03:00 -
[29]
Its 0.033 not 0.025 on the second research, fomular is 1/1+level * initial waste factor.
I'd like to see a tax rate on copies, totally optional by the copier, that means every item made is taxed at a % This can either be done by increasing the amount of minerals needed, and then the npc value of the excess minerals is trasfered to the owner when the job consumes the minerals.
or
you just set a tax on the bp use, every run you get an automatic money transfer before the job starts (so people cant run out of cash) for the amount chosed.
This tax thing while mean people can give away a copy, with a high tax and make the money on its use.. I also means you dont have to upset anyone by changing what currently exisits, but it does allow bp copies to have more flexablity on things.
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Glowing Star
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Posted - 2003.07.29 12:08:00 -
[30]
The number of copies should be a formular based on the cost of the minerals to do the job, and the cost of the orginal bp.. Then things balance neatly. for example I would like something like 5*orginial bp cost/cost of minerals for 1 job = number of runs a copy can do..
For a top of the line crusier this would be around 60 copies,
For the bane torpedo it would be around 700
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