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Zaphod Robotnik
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Posted - 2003.07.29 12:10:00 -
[31]
Checking the other thread on this topic, it would indeed seem that the number of builds from a copy is dependant on the type of Blueprint.
See http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=22357 where Clawhammer III states During my testing a 2 production run Raven BPC copies in under 2 days but a 10 production run BPC (the max for this type of bp) takes over 6 days.
--
Zaphod "Zaprobo" Robotnik
President, Royal Communication Department
http://eve.britishspacecorps.co.uk/http://eve.britishspacecorps |
drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.29 12:55:00 -
[32]
that's very good news, zaphod.
he also mentioned that the raven BP went to a maximum of 10 runs per copy...
.
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Samurai Jack
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Posted - 2003.07.29 13:05:00 -
[33]
Although I agree that there is a need to have a limit on the number of items buildable items this also penalizes corps that only use their bp copies for internal use only. Especially so if copies for larger volumes take longer to build.
IMHO the 3 copy limit should be put back in.
The functionality of the bp remains without penalizing anyone but there will be less copies being sold off... not without a larger outlay anyway...
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Tharrn
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Posted - 2003.07.29 13:37:00 -
[34]
That's exactly the point: not every corp should be able to build everything. Else we really don't need a market...
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Sarf
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Posted - 2003.07.29 13:40:00 -
[35]
beseb, what I am getting at is we spent alot of hard work to buy the BP copie. If we had known that it would eventually be worthless then we would have kept saveing and bought a original.
I agree that 300 MOA is a good ROI but it is not what we bought when we made the deal. don't forget the original deal called for getting another BP copy when the resurch was complete, that is still outstanding.
I happens to be my bigest Gripe about MMO games is that they set up a world and then change the rules underneath everyone. This totaly negates any long term planing that we have made for the growth of our corp.
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Johnson McCrae
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Posted - 2003.07.29 14:45:00 -
[36]
Too many cheese and whine posts.
Face it, you've had it easy. TOO easy. Now, your faced with having to work. Just take that pill and swallow it.
Its time for you to stop making the 'big bucks' above and beyond the new people.
Its not the available market bp's that you have to worry about, but the rare's you have trouble finding to start with.
People wanting 'unlimited' copies are too greedy to buy an original, and its time they faced reality.
It ain't over till the fat lady falls on ya!
[ 2004.10.09 02:50:23 ] (combat) Your 425mm Compressed Coil Gun I perfectly strikes Guardian Sentry, wrecking for 747.3 damage.
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MindBender
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Posted - 2003.07.29 15:10:00 -
[37]
Wnen I want to work I will go to my Job where I get paid. I play eve to get away from the mundane drudgery of work. All copies currently out there need to stay unlimited copies. That is what people paid for when they bought them.
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Salazar N'terre
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Posted - 2003.07.29 15:12:00 -
[38]
Limits to the number of items made per copy will stabilize the Eve Economy. It would be nice if they would also put the number of times left on the copy icon. So you dont buy a copy and find out that it has only 1 use left. I can see a lot of scams with this limit feature if this is not handled correctly.
"I Live in my OWN LITTLE WORLD....but its okay, they know me HERE!"
Lookin for a good deal on ships check out us at: http://ken.nu/ict/ |
Doctor X
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Posted - 2003.07.29 15:22:00 -
[39]
I think they should apply the limits to all existing BP copies. That is, all tranquility copied BPs should have the same upper limit on uses as new copies have. There is no reason people who got copies before the patch should have a big advantage over those who got copies after the patch.
Grandfathering in copies would keep the frigate, cruiser, and battleship economies totally fubared. No grandfathering!
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Will McBlack
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Posted - 2003.07.29 15:22:00 -
[40]
Well if you trade a bp with someone you can always press 'show info' before you accept the trade ... that 'show info' then shows you the amount of runs you have left on the copy. But I agree. A number on the BP-icon showing how many runs are left seems usefull.
Personally I would also like to see the word 'COPY' going from the lower left to the upper right corner on the Copied BPs. That firstly makes my life easier to find the original one when I see 5 plutonium BPs in my hangar and secondly helps preventing scams like selling a copy instead of an original one when trading for something 
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Jojin
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Posted - 2003.07.29 15:31:00 -
[41]
Restricting all existing BP copies to the maximum number allowed for new copies is the only fair way to go. I am sure a lot of us will not like the idea as we were not counting on such a change, but it is not something to keep anyone from continuing to play, have fun and be successful. This is a game where change is what facilitates new play and gives new opportunities to everyone. To those who have stated they dislike the changes because they have long term plans based upon the way things are now, they should be sure to add in contingency (alternative) plans next time to deal with change. No one knows what the future will bring.
----
I disagree with the concept only large corporations should have originals and access to the highest technology items. In regards to production and assets, perhaps this may be true. The great inventions and new innovations do not come from corporations, they come from individuals. Corporations might end up with them because the individual is already in the corporation, by offering the individuals great compensation or just stealing it from them, but the corporation itself is nothing more than a group of people.
Hopefully, it will be the individual characters which will be source of original blueprints. Those people, who specialized in research and science and wanted to play such a role, will then have their part to play. This way, no matter how large a corporation is, if they didnÆt have a group highly skilled research characters, then they will not have much chance of being the originators of new creations (original BPÆs). Of course with the right amount of zeroÆs in an ISK transfer these large corporations will be able to gather up those Blueprints they desire, regardless or origin.
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drunkenmaster
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Posted - 2003.07.29 15:32:00 -
[42]
I'm sensing a lot of greed in this thread.
Which is partly the reason this fix was needed, sadly.
copies already on TQ will be grandfathered to their maximum amount, according to the devs. And I really can't see this being a problem.
What was a problem is people buying originals *purely* to make copies and sell them. And this turnaround was too fast, and, because the copies were unlimited, also too expensive.
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Athan
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Posted - 2003.07.29 15:36:00 -
[43]
I've no problem with grandfathering current BP copies to, say, 300 uses more max, BUT...
... this must be VERY clearly announced, and I don't just mean ON patch day. It's got to be right out there on "Eve Information Central" in full at least 3 days beforehand.
I'd even be tempted to send ingame mail to every CEO about it to be sure someone with their head in the sand (with respect to these forums) doesn't miss it.
Of course the same can be said of other changes. Such as the whole slot unrent thing in the past.
-Ath
--
http://big.wayland.dk/Lottery.asp - The BIG Lottery |
Uncle Enzo
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Posted - 2003.07.29 18:31:00 -
[44]
The max # of production runs needs to be per BP type.
Ammo should be large - 1000 maybe.
Small/medium weapons should be medium - 250
Frigates should be less - 100
Cruisers should be even less - 25
Battleships should be exceedingly few - 5-10 at most.
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Salazar N'terre
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Posted - 2003.07.29 18:35:00 -
[45]
Well, that would be simple. Change the color of an orignal vs. a copy. Make one blue and the other another color. Visual changes are always a better indicator over text.
"I Live in my OWN LITTLE WORLD....but its okay, they know me HERE!"
Lookin for a good deal on ships check out us at: http://ken.nu/ict/ |
BSOD
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Posted - 2003.07.29 19:16:00 -
[46]
Revenge of the workarounds...
This wouldn't be necessary if researchers actually had more to do than copy copy copy.
Rather than limiting the number of copies producable, all CCP had to do was make copies have half the research benefits of the original they were produced from. BOOM. Instant 5% mineral penalty for copies, plus item quality disadvantages when tech research is implemented.
As such, I have a feeling that we'll see NO improvements to the market whatsoever from this.
----------------
Blue Screen of Death
CEO
Exodus Enterprises |
Diana Merris
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Posted - 2003.07.29 19:36:00 -
[47]
 Quote:
Wnen I want to work I will go to my Job where I get paid. I play eve to get away from the mundane drudgery of work. All copies currently out there need to stay unlimited copies. That is what people paid for when they bought them.
Wrong!
You paid for a COPY. If you had paid for unlimited use you would have bought an original and would have unlimited use.
If all the existing copies stay unlimited then the economy won't be fixed. The unlimited copies are the problem, they have to go.
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Razakon
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Posted - 2003.07.29 19:53:00 -
[48]
Our Corp saved the extra to get an original because the DEV did mention this was needed. So If you corp lose out , it's just life start over and build again. Prices are way to low.
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Aerin Osaa
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Posted - 2003.07.29 22:58:00 -
[49]
and what about rare blueprints? like heavy drones? We need the originals for those to be introduced onto the market in some way.
While i support the idea of limiting existing copys, i will feel slightly cheated if my copys get capped - even though i recognise that it is clearly necessary, and the right thing to do.
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Bishop Haulus
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Posted - 2003.07.29 23:37:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Bishop Haulus on 29/07/2003 23:37:48
this is a joke right? Tell me it ain't so.
If there is any effect at all, it will be only short term, and as usual will only hit the little guy.
Please start over and do it right.
Here is the bishop's 5 easy steps to fix this problem for good:
1. Remove all NPC sales(Including BP's) (skill book should also be copyable and sellable on the market)
2. Introduce new bp's for Trade goods using only minerals.
3. Include trade goods into manufacturing of the existing bp's (a MOA now also requiers 500 electronic parts, 1000 Silicon, 10,000 Garbage)
4. Remove all but standard equipment drops from pirates and give them a rare or improved trade good. Then allow rare and improved items to be manufactured but must have the trade good from the pirate.
5. Increase all manufacturing times...its much too short now, thats one of the big reasons there is too much on the market now.
It just doesn't seem too hard to get the market back in shape. All of the elements are there, just diversifing what is already in the game will do wonders for the market. This also helps out the traders and pirate hunters. I just think this is more the way to go.
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Bishop Haulus
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Posted - 2003.07.30 00:02:00 -
[51]
I knew there were 6 things on my list!!
If you really want to spend alot of time on this try #6 here.
6. Put Decay on all items into the game. A mining laser should only last a milion or 2 m/3 of ore mined...then they need to go buy another!
If you want to get excited about bp's just add a decay to them as well.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2003.07.30 01:47:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Jash Illian on 30/07/2003 01:53:42
Quote:
I'm sensing a lot of greed in this thread.
Which is partly the reason this fix was needed, sadly.
copies already on TQ will be grandfathered to their maximum amount, according to the devs. And I really can't see this being a problem.
What was a problem is people buying originals *purely* to make copies and sell them. And this turnaround was too fast, and, because the copies were unlimited, also too expensive.
I smell greed too. The people that have originals fairly reek of it.
CCP needs to learn that they should not do things that harm their existing customers. And changing existing copies so they have a max production run is harming their existing customers. The first distribution of blueprints was pooched by their actions. And slapping the existing copies with limits tells me that we shouldn't expect any significant number of new blueprints for a while. Because if there were such a thing, the copies in existence would be moot. Nobody would want those items with fresh, more powerful ones availible.
My corp just invested in a stabber blueprint copy. We're willing to put in the time and effort to pick up the scraps of the ship market. But now we're getting punished because those manufacturers who keep leaving those scraps are too lazy. Limited copies won't affect the market in a good way. It only ensures that the few get rich while the rest get stuck out.
By the way...
Ever consider what this does to people with Mass Production skills? If the copy time increases for each production run the copy is capable of, then making copies to run in multiple factories becomes highly restrictive. It also makes supplying outposts with their own bps for heavy use items restricted as well...
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
EaglesFire
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Posted - 2003.07.30 06:33:00 -
[53]
"3. Include trade goods into manufacturing of the existing bp's (a MOA now also requiers 500 electronic parts, 1000 Silicon, 10,000 Garbage)"
Note: The Dev's did say that trade goods will be required to make Tech level 2 items and above.
"Knowledge is power, and the uninformed SHALL be punished!"
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Muaddid
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Posted - 2003.07.30 07:13:00 -
[54]
Quote:
and what about rare blueprints? like heavy drones? We need the originals for those to be introduced onto the market in some way.
*nods*
would be a good time to make high lvl agents, convoys and npc cruisers (BS?) have a small small chance of selling/dropping BPs
and please, not like in beta, where the npc cruisers were all dropping the same 5 BPs every 4 cruiser u killed... alot more rarity and a alot of diversity = good
Finding a tech 2 gun from one of the serpentis thorax or buying a tech 2 mining laser from the lvl 4 agent would had some needed fun :)
as for convoys... it would be nice if once in a while, a convoy would carry an original BP (or a copy with unlimited number of runs) and that if you looted it, it would be considered "hot stuff" and the navy would hunt you down (not ony take sentry guns when u get too close... a real hunt :)
give us more risk (thougher npc pirates/navy) and better rewards :)
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Drutort
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Posted - 2003.07.30 08:36:00 -
[55]
well decay, that is a total diff part of game it would be big thing.
i mean you would have some items would be say repairable and others would not... maybe you need to have some kind of skill etc... and they might req minerals to fix them... i mean its only right that you need the minerals to repair stuff...
or you could pay isk to fix?
still dont know if this would fix the problem
support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo
my MoBlog |
Aerin Osaa
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Posted - 2003.07.30 11:54:00 -
[56]
a few things:
1) in case people were wondering, the bluepring copying time is proportional to the number of copys that each copy can make (did that make sense?) EG: producing a single copy of an atron blueprint which can be use to make a single ship takes 2 hours. To produce a single copy which makes 30 ships (the max) takes 2 1/2 days (30 x 2 hours).
2) I think CCP is going to try and solve many of the economy issues with the introduction of tech level 2. They have said that trade goods (eg electronics etc) will be needed to produce tech 2 items. This will create much more demand for such items, so traders should be happy. I presume they will also use it as an opportunity to introduce other fixes as well as it is an excellent chance to overhaul any "bad" bits, as no one will complain (how can they? its not like ccp will be changing something that is already in the game).
3) Before moaning too much about your poor little nerfed tech level 1 bp copys, bear in mind that once tech level 2 comes out, no one will want to buy tech 1 stuff any more (at least not when there is a tech 2 equivalent)
4) Jash Illian implied that original bp owners were the ones moaning about these changes? why on earth would they? they don't loose out at all. In fact, they benefit. Its the owners of bp copys that loose out as they will only be able to sell a limited number of items
5) i think limiting copys is a good thing, because it will stop people selling at ridiculous prices because they will have to cover the cost of the blueprint.
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2003.07.30 12:30:00 -
[57]
Glad to hear that Tech level 2 will require trade goods. Perhaps those in the rest of the world will have some trading available to them after downtime :)
Disappointed to hear that copies duration will be increased. It amazes me that they haven't gone the licencing route since the start, and the change now will hit a lot of people very very hard. Sadly, this doesn't help things for bigger corps either, if you ran an original and a copy at the same time to help your production of X item be faster, now it will be slowed massively.
One thing we might be forgetting. It doesn't take me long to copy a file on my system, even a very large file. Yet 26 thousand years from now it is going to take hours and days to do? Are you serious?
Licencing should just wrap a copy with X builds, yes.
However, that blueprint should be stamped as being from X company, and that approaching X company after its volume has expired should allow you to get a code which unlocks the copy for more use. Instantly, simply like software locks work today. Of course the supplier might want to charge a fee for that service.
This shouldn't take more time, dear lord, this is just a data copy with a legal/soft wrapper. Copy times should be dramatically improved, I do not see why it should take days to produce copies of existing data. I dont see why a lab should be tied up for days over what is a funding/licencing issue around a copy. I don't see why making a copy should take longer.
That doesn't make sense at all, infact might annoy people more then its intended effect.
- Yes to Licencing.
- Reduce copy time.
- Make re-using a copy allowable through re-licencing with a key code that can be sent in an email.
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Gwyneth Museveni
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Posted - 2003.07.31 08:18:00 -
[58]
Sounds good.
Once the existing BP copies run out we will finally see some specialization in manufacturing. People may actually start buying from other people instead of everybody being able to manufacture every frikkin thing under the sun and not need to buy anything except pirate loot.
Small corp A forms an alliance with small corp B--you build our Caracals for us and we'll build your Blackbird for you. And we will trade Bane torps for Juggernaut torps, and Paradise missiles for Devastator missiles. I am looking forward to the corporate manufacturing identity this change will make possible!
I mean, the market is already flooded with BP copies, those existing BP copies have to go, otherwise it doesn't really change much except screwing newcomers who won't be able to build everything under the sun with cheap existing "infinite" BP copies.
-----------------------
Gwyneth Museveni
Rogue Mercenary Cyberneticist |
FingerThief
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Posted - 2003.07.31 12:08:00 -
[59]
Quote:
The max # of production runs needs to be per BP type.
Ammo should be large - 1000 maybe.
Small/medium weapons should be medium - 250
Frigates should be less - 100
Cruisers should be even less - 25
Battleships should be exceedingly few - 5-10 at most.
 That idea has my vote !
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DeltroNomicoN
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Posted - 2003.07.31 21:09:00 -
[60]
Quote:
Well, that would be simple. Change the color of an orignal vs. a copy. Make one blue and the other another color. Visual changes are always a better indicator over text.
If you changed the color they wouldn't be blueprints they'd be orangeprints or redprints.
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