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Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:41:00 - [31] It is theft because you can't control things in EVE as you could in the real world, hence you shouldn't compare every aspect of gameplay to how things work in the real world. For us to avoid this, we would have had to sit with the Alliance window open, watching which corporations pulled out, then kick those members out of the corp immediately. It's not corp theft, I would describe it as alliance theft. The ruling body of the alliance stayed, so all the assets belong to the alliance. They didn't have shares in the alliance, just a corp that was created with shares give so that alliance members can be sure the funds weren't used by the executor corp. This theft will make it hard for alliances to trust members and will keep alliance funds and station minerals more closed from average alliance members. There will be a lot more chatter in alliance chat in regards to "where is all the alliance isk going? where are the station refine minerals going?" If this was a corp thing sure, well played, but this corp was holding alliance funds and minerals, it was not the property of the corp. It's alliance theft. Very low.
Alowishus	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:49:00 - [32] Originally by: Kozak It wasn't enough to turn your back on SE, you had to steal from them aswell. Very lame. I hope if SA ever breaks up, someone steals their assets too. Very lame. Enjoy it. Atleast you can use that isk to buy some ship, won't get your dignity back though. Bwahahahaha! Sore Lozerz indeed. You guys just sound bitter now. Cujo and AmarrCEO were getting 2 billion isk per month from SE members, isk that wasn't used for anything for anyone in the alliance. Cujo and AmarrCEO stole from SE, most of SE becomes SA and take back what was theirs. Sounds ideal to me. Anyone who believes that Cujo and AmarrCEO weren't ripping everyone off either wasn't in SE or was somehow benefiting from their selfish ways. Good show SA.
Diamond Dog	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:55:00 - [33] Originally by: Kozak It is theft because you can't control things in EVE as you could in the real world, hence you shouldn't compare every aspect of gameplay to how things work in the real world. For us to avoid this, we would have had to sit with the Alliance window open, watching which corporations pulled out, then kick those members out of the corp immediately. It's not corp theft, I would describe it as alliance theft. The ruling body of the alliance stayed, so all the assets belong to the alliance. They didn't have shares in the alliance, just a corp that was created with shares give so that alliance members can be sure the funds weren't used by the executor corp. This theft will make it hard for alliances to trust members and will keep alliance funds and station minerals more closed from average alliance members. There will be a lot more chatter in alliance chat in regards to "where is all the alliance isk going? where are the station refine minerals going?" If this was a corp thing sure, well played, but this corp was holding alliance funds and minerals, it was not the property of the corp. It's alliance theft. Very low. But this game is built around buisness.. This game revolves around money. And to be honest... I don't give a toss about how you feel about this because the only thing I've ever seen you do is run your mouth on the forums spewing utter rubbish. Allthough.. I don't see anything there to classify this as a theft.. It was done using the ingame share system CCP provided us with.. Hostile takeover yes. Theft? I disagree.. Note that I only just heard about this. Cheers. DD ________________________________________
pshepherd	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:56:00 - [34] i have no idea 'what' happened with all the SEL stuff, but look at it like this: We're at war, that means we're trying to inflict both monetory and psycological damage on every remaining member in SE... And judging from your reaction, we got some nice stuff. Its war, its 0.0, no-body is gonna be civil. And the giving away Catch thing while you were loosing was equally as cheeky as this
Hydrocarbon	Posted - 2005.09.15 22:03:00 - [35] Originally by: Sovereign1100 Wah! We didn't know how to set up a secure beaurocracy and it bit us in the arse! It's someone else's fault that we distributed too many shares! God, at least those guys from FA who had their station stolen could blame poor in-game security controls. All you can do is cry about your leaders' incompotence and untrustworthiness. That's gotta suck.
Kazim	Posted - 2005.09.15 22:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Kozak It is theft because you can't control things in EVE as you could in the real world, hence you shouldn't compare every aspect of gameplay to how things work in the real world. For us to avoid this, we would have had to sit with the Alliance window open, watching which corporations pulled out, then kick those members out of the corp immediately. It's not corp theft, I would describe it as alliance theft. The ruling body of the alliance stayed, so all the assets belong to the alliance. They didn't have shares in the alliance, just a corp that was created with shares give so that alliance members can be sure the funds weren't used by the executor corp. This theft will make it hard for alliances to trust members and will keep alliance funds and station minerals more closed from average alliance members. There will be a lot more chatter in alliance chat in regards to "where is all the alliance isk going? where are the station refine minerals going?" If this was a corp thing sure, well played, but this corp was holding alliance funds and minerals, it was not the property of the corp. It's alliance theft. Very low. Kozak... your whine gets sweeter every time...
Halo Jones	Posted - 2005.09.15 22:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) Just to make a point exceptionally clear. Oberon has never held an alt within SEL. We have never owned an SEL share. We did not participate in the ejection vote. You are completely wrong on this matter Maya Rkell. Oberon Incorporated.
FalloutBoy	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:11:00 - [38] Originally by: Halo Jones Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) Just to make a point exceptionally clear. Oberon has never held an alt within SEL. We have never owned an SEL share. We did not participate in the ejection vote. You are completely wrong on this matter Maya Rkell. you are affiliated with people that did this though so you don't smell any better regardless need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more information
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:12:00 - [39] Ingame mechanics allow anyone with rights to hangars to clear out those hangars and leave the corp. Ingame mechanics do not allow an alliance to control alliance stations. All you are allowed to do is to create a corp to hold those assets. This was done and shares to member corps were given to shut up those in alliance chat always asking where the funds were going. It's the lack of alliance control that allowed this. Yes, ingame mechanics let this happen, but that doesn't mean it's right. And to those that say it's war - does that mean if a body of mine from an SA corp steals all the funds from his corp then comes over to SE that makes it right, but if he didn't join SE then it's wrong?
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:13:00 - [40] BTW, what is up with all this namecalling? Why can't you just talk about the topic? The only little *****e$ I see on this forum and the smack talking ones.
Diamond Dog	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:21:00 - [41] Originally by: FalloutBoy Originally by: Halo Jones Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) Just to make a point exceptionally clear. Oberon has never held an alt within SEL. We have never owned an SEL share. We did not participate in the ejection vote. You are completely wrong on this matter Maya Rkell. you are affiliated with people that did this though so you don't smell any better regardless @FalloutBoy I'm gonna quote Mongo Peck and say "YAP YAP" ________________________________________
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:22:00 - [42] Originally by: Darken Two Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) What the hell you talkin about? And why on earth have you quoted me? If you are intent on making no sense, please dont drag me into your warped little world. Making perfect sense. I was poking you and saying that I don't have a problem with it. (It's a nice piece of strategic judo. Legit, and a nice payback for Catch). Seems I did fine on the poke :) "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:22:00 - [43] Originally by: Halo Jones Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) Just to make a point exceptionally clear. Oberon has never held an alt within SEL. We have never owned an SEL share. We did not participate in the ejection vote. You are completely wrong on this matter Maya Rkell. And you can't actually read. np. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Mitch Taylor	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:26:00 - [44] /emote sighs
Sceartan	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:32:00 - [45] Anyone miss the part claiming it was a majority vote by shareholders that the CEO be changed? This is a legitimate facility inbuilt into corporations and therefore isn't a theft no matter how much you complain it is. Moving all the assests of a corp to your private hangar after finally being declared a Director is a theft (ala: the GHSC event).
Arud	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:36:00 - [46] Kozak, Hi again :) Should all SE assets, what the 25+ corps worked for now belong to 5-6 corps left in SE living in empire? We were not going to let those few run away with all that the 25+ corps had worked for. These assets were earned by corps living in Stain and will stay with these same corps living in Stain. Some might end up with some current SE corps, that has not been discussed yet.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:37:00 - [47] Absolutely. Anyone bashing Overkill and SA both in the last few days needs a reality check, incidently. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Kuang	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:47:00 - [48] Doesn't matter who got what IT'S A CIVIL WAR ... normally this can't happen but when 1/2 or more join the other side .. this can happen ... the ceo of the exec corp should have been more vigilant ... but atleast if another civil war happens hope others learn from mistakes here It sucks for SE and is a great coupe for SA ... basically the majority of the corps that left took advantage and scored an Econ victory for SA http://virii.homeip.net/
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:12:00 - [49] Originally by: Arud Kozak, Hi again :) Should all SE assets, what the 25+ corps worked for now belong to 5-6 corps left in SE living in empire? We were not going to let those few run away with all that the 25+ corps had worked for. These assets were earned by corps living in Stain and will stay with these same corps living in Stain. Some might end up with some current SE corps, that has not been discussed yet. That is true, let me just clarify my position though. There are no game mechanics for an alliance to hold alliance assets. There has to be a corp to control it. If you take from the corp, you take from the alliance. That said. When you leave the alliance, you forfiet your take. If I worked at a company and used their facilities and used their equipment to create a product, I have NO RIGHTS to that product or the money it brings in. The shares were given to make sure the funds were used for the GOOD OF THE ALLIANCE, not the several corps leaving. The executor corp stayed as did a few other corporations. They could have just left the alliance and asked for their share. Joining the enemy and taking it is wrong. Doesn't matter if game mechanics allow it. Game mechanics allow many things, that's why there are bannable actions in EVE. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should. If Cujo ran off with all the funds and all the minerals, that would have been wrong. Game mechanics would have allowed it, but he wouldn't do it, he's a better person than that. Arud, why does it seem that you're the only one out of MASS not acting like a total douche?
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:15:00 - [50] Except, they had most of the shares. So you didn't own the materials, they did. Oops. VERY much oops. It is a nasty move on their part. It is, however, legitimate. And your move with Catch was also nasty. I think both are very amusing. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:18:00 - [51] As another example I'd like to point out that when Species left SGE, we left all the corp assets even thought more then half the corp left. There were enough people left in the corp as well as the CEO that it would have been wrong to take anything. We benefited from being in the corp and would not earned those things if we were not in the corp. Basically if you say that because there were more corps leaving, it means that if 51 corporations out of 100 in an alliance decide to leave the alliance, they are entitled to all the assetts of the alliance. That just doesn't seem right to me.
Christopher Multsanti	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:21:00 - [52] Theft or not, call it whatever makes you feel happy, it dosent matter. It was a damn smart move. Thorax FTW!
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:23:00 - [53] Originally by: Maya Rkell Except, they had most of the shares. So you didn't own the materials, they did. Oops. VERY much oops. It is a nasty move on their part. It is, however, legitimate. And your move with Catch was also nasty. I think both are very amusing. Well, it's all about trust. About Catch region, TheBold was informed that it would go to FIX when he didn't accept our offer. So that was not decieving in any way. We told them it would happen. It is about trust. We trusted every member in SE. Even though some left, we knew they were doing it for their corporation. To shoot us, I understand, they do what their alliance tells them, but to do such a 180 as to steal from people you've played with for over a year? It's like having your directors rob your corp cause they wanted to start a new one.
Psych0	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:33:00 - [54] To steal something you have to take it.. AFAIK all SEL items are still in SEL.. so just what did we steal if no items have left the corp ?. And corps here work like in the real world if you dont control atleast 51% there is the posibility of you losing power of it.. If the majority votes you out.. There might not be any direct alliance assest control but werent the alliance in control of the corp ?. oh and who says the share holders have to work/be in the corp ?. It doesnt matter they have the shares and together they had the majority meaning they have the power over the corp and all its assests.
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:38:00 - [55] You are really telling me that if 51% SA decide to leave SA, they have the right to all the alliance assets? You would be ok with that, cause if you trully believe you would not mind that at all, I'll have nothing more to say about this.
Celticjim	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:42:00 - [56] Originally by: Kozak Originally by: Arud Kozak, Hi again :) If Cujo ran off with all the funds and all the minerals, that would have been wrong. Game mechanics would have allowed it, but he wouldn't do it, he's a better person than that. Arud, why does it seem that you're the only one out of MASS not acting like a total douche? For the love of God Kozak...are you really this daft?!!!!Have us and about 20 other Old Farts still ingame been screaming at the top of their lungs so you can continue to look at your purple sky? He DID do this to us way back when. For me this is the ultimate payback. Took almost two years, but karma sucks. My only condolensces is the fact alot of other people got involved. JC almighty. Ask Duke, Ask what happened back then. Let's say, lets just say, he didn't get any BPO's back when BPO's were expensive, but he got other stuff. What did he take or manage to grab? Hell the one thing I can't believe is the god d$#n blind devotion Species has to that man. If it sounds personal, absolutely is. Cujo went from hero to zero in a matter of 5 seconds back then. Later I thought I was wrong, but after reading the mess that is a Scrabble board here and the numbers being bandied about..whatever. Yup..no alt 4tw here. Karma sucks. Time to get the chips off your shoulder and deal with it as I have been told in the past. CJ
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:42:00 - [57] Originally by: Kozak As another example I'd like to point out that when Species left SGE, we left all the corp assets even thought more then half the corp left. There were enough people left in the corp as well as the CEO that it would have been wrong to take anything. We benefited from being in the corp and would not earned those things if we were not in the corp. Basically if you say that because there were more corps leaving, it means that if 51 corporations out of 100 in an alliance decide to leave the alliance, they are entitled to all the assetts of the alliance. That just doesn't seem right to me. Shares. Not corperations. Not people. Shares. You didn't hold your shares closely. Oops. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Psych0	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:43:00 - [58] Edited by: Psych0 on 16/09/2005 00:43:14 Originally by: Kozak You are really telling me that if 51% SA decide to leave SA, they have the right to all the alliance assets? You would be ok with that, cause if you trully believe you would not mind that at all, I'll have nothing more to say about this. Are you just sitting hitting refresh If 51% then they would have the power to do what ever they wanted just like in the real world, the last 49% wouldnt be able to do anything since they doesnt hold the majority. Ofc i wouldnt be happy about it, but it is hardcore buisness. I wouldnt be able to do anything about it since im no longer in control.
DeathForMeh	Posted - 2005.09.16 01:02:00 - [59] Originally by: Psych0 Edited by: Psych0 on 16/09/2005 00:43:14 Originally by: Kozak You are really telling me that if 51% SA decide to leave SA, they have the right to all the alliance assets? You would be ok with that, cause if you trully believe you would not mind that at all, I'll have nothing more to say about this. Are you just sitting hitting refresh If 51% then they would have the power to do what ever they wanted just like in the real world, the last 49% wouldnt be able to do anything since they doesnt hold the majority. Ofc i wouldnt be happy about it, but it is hardcore buisness. I wouldnt be able to do anything about it since im no longer in control. Dont compare eve stuff to rl. For example where are corp by laws? If sel had by laws id bet it saw it was a holding compane for se and would stay se property for ever. Just cuz you have 51% of shares dosent mean you can say go f yourself by laws. So this whole lol ecomoics lol real world lol I'm a eve lawer lol is stupid. It was fair yeah but dont compare rl to eve.
Psych0	Posted - 2005.09.16 01:18:00 - [60] Edited by: Psych0 on 16/09/2005 01:19:12 Isnt eve RL There are alot of different type of corps in rl were we only have 1 type in eve. So you cant compare eve with rl, but there are simularities on how thinks work. If we started to compare i would think it very strange a bs can only move with about 500km/h when we got airplanes that can fly alot faster. oh well enough of this..

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