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Taz Devlin	Posted - 2005.09.15 15:43:00 - [1] There has been some mud flinging regarding the Empire Logistics Corp[S E L] and its assets. Most, if not all has landed on Oberon Incorporated[OI] as well as Setenta Corp[STC], this is unfounded at best. I can confirm that both corporations had no part to play in this take over. That's right, take over. At no time can this be considered a theft. At some point in time SEL had distributed shares to members. A resourceful member initiated a corp vote to change CEO, this was done successfully. Hostile entity was subsequently removed, SEL and all its assets are now owned by SA. There will still be those that will call this a theft. I call them unimaginative and sore loserz. Thank you and have a nice day.
Grand Mal	Posted - 2005.09.15 15:47:00 - [2] k
Weeman	Posted - 2005.09.15 15:47:00 - [3] Congratulations, you are officially a tard.
danneh	Posted - 2005.09.15 15:58:00 - [4] Thieft in my book.
Tansien	Posted - 2005.09.15 16:05:00 - [5] Smart move.
Blacklight	Posted - 2005.09.15 16:23:00 - [6] Corporate wars for the win. All's fair in love and war baby. Eve Blacklight Style
Goulag	Posted - 2005.09.15 16:25:00 - [7] if the name of the corp is called "Stain Empire Logistics", then doesn't that mean that it is an SE corp, and therefore that alliance's property? i commend you for at least only allowing those former SE corps to make claims though, but i would figure they forfeited those rights when they left their previous alliance. oh well, what's done is done and have fun in your new found wealth.
disassembler	Posted - 2005.09.15 16:37:00 - [8] Wow, what a lame thing to do. Creative, but lame.
pershphanie	Posted - 2005.09.15 16:42:00 - [9] Originally by: Taz Devlin There has been some mud flinging regarding the Empire Logistics Corp[S E L] and its assets. Most, if not all has landed on Oberon Incorporated[OI] as well as Setenta Corp[STC], this is unfounded at best. Oberon would never commit corp thiefts. Even if they did make a poor choice in which allaince to join.
Orc A	Posted - 2005.09.15 16:47:00 - [10] Theft? LOL. Fact: rouglly 80% of SE corps joined SA. Fact: They deserve thier stuff back. FACT: S.E.L Was a "holding company". those items were never "thiers". Those items and isk involved, belonged to the ones who made them exist in the first place,a nd worked hard for them. Fact: The game mechanics allow such a move. FACT: If anyone feels like claiming that "We lost the right to claim those objects when we left SE" I feel like telling them: "SE lost it's claim to those objects when thier were not smart enough as to kicking the SA members out of SEL before they used their shares, in a way that the game machanics FULLY support. Have a nice day. -Orky
Liu Kaskakka	Posted - 2005.09.15 16:48:00 - [11] khihi.. ^^
Christopher Multsanti	Posted - 2005.09.15 16:53:00 - [12] This was a smart move indeed! War is not just about firing guns at each other. Thorax FTW!
Destroyer Draxx	Posted - 2005.09.15 17:04:00 - [13] Imo IGS should get a share of whats theirs. To clarify I dont have any particular friends in IGS (just recognise some names in local cause I ve seen them over 1 mil times), I just think that would be fair since they did most of the work to setup SEL if I remember correctly. True they are hostile to us now, so maybe they can get their share after they stop (if they do) or whatever, so as not to fund their war against us This is just my personal opinion, not my corps etc etc etc. So Far So Good....So What
Antoinette Civari	Posted - 2005.09.15 17:16:00 - [14] hehe, smart move indeed.
Orc A	Posted - 2005.09.15 17:31:00 - [15] I Too, think that IGS and XB are to get a cut from the funds. -Orky
KrakizBad	Posted - 2005.09.15 17:34:00 - [16] Before Cujo several stain members participated in SEL functions. Members represented many different corps. After Cujo it was only Cujo and Amar CEO that had any SEL control.
IcedBach Jr	Posted - 2005.09.15 17:41:00 - [17] Since SE giving away FAT was ok, then this is love and roses. STFU plz Praeludium to success
Hydrocarbon	Posted - 2005.09.15 17:52:00 - [18] Next time, be more careful to whom you give shares of your empire holding corps. Taking a company public entails certain risks.
DeathForMeh	Posted - 2005.09.15 17:58:00 - [19] As big as a se fan boy as i am i would have to agree this was fair play. I mean isnt this the whole reason for giving out shares so that one man in not the king.
Admiral HashBlock	Posted - 2005.09.15 18:04:00 - [20] Well, if giving away catch to fix is "fair", i don't see how this isn't.
thebold	Posted - 2005.09.15 18:06:00 - [21] i think thats me in taz's sig i look white! ============================================== Currently Down, Mahhy=lazy
Taz Devlin	Posted - 2005.09.15 18:08:00 - [22] First you sneak onto our group picture, then you have the nerve to whine over your own eyebrows?!? In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.09.15 18:25:00 - [23] Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.15 19:48:00 - [24] Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.15 20:28:00 - [25] It wasn't enough to turn your back on SE, you had to steal from them aswell. Very lame. I hope if SA ever breaks up, someone steals their assets too. Very lame. Enjoy it. Atleast you can use that isk to buy some ship, won't get your dignity back though.
sidthesexist	Posted - 2005.09.15 20:30:00 - [26] Originally by: Kozak It wasn't enough to turn your back on SE, you had to steal from them aswell. Very lame. I hope if SA ever breaks up, someone steals their assets too. Very lame. Enjoy it. Atleast you can use that isk to buy some ship, won't get your dignity back though. surely you meant when sa breaks up?
Randay	Posted - 2005.09.15 20:36:00 - [27] alliance theft 4tw! It was a theft, but the reasons for it happening were no where near as despicable as a regular theft or scam. A smart move indeed. ------------------------------------------- "Det hõr kan betyda krig!"
DigitalCommunist	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:06:00 - [28] Its not theft if they had majority of the power and you happen to disagree with them. Its called getting the short end of the stick ;p Well played SA. Perpetually driven, your end is our beginning.
Hydrocarbon	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:15:00 - [29] Arg! It was NOT theft, it was a [url=http://www.investorwords.com/h1.htm#hostiletakeover]HOSTILE TAKEOVER. Economics Lesson: If you distribute more than 49.9% of your corporation through stocks, you risk losing control of said company. This wasn't some game bug or h4xploit, this was EXACTLY how the system was supposed to work. And the fact that it was ALLOWED[/b] to happen is clear evidence of the board's ineptitude. The board created the shares The board distributed the shares The board is responsible for losing control of the company Now, show of hands...How many CEO's here have direct control of at least 51% of their corp's shares? If you did not raise your hand, you may be the next victim. That's capitalism, baby!
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:41:00 - [30] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) What the hell you talkin about? And why on earth have you quoted me? If you are intent on making no sense, please dont drag me into your warped little world. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:41:00 - [31] It is theft because you can't control things in EVE as you could in the real world, hence you shouldn't compare every aspect of gameplay to how things work in the real world. For us to avoid this, we would have had to sit with the Alliance window open, watching which corporations pulled out, then kick those members out of the corp immediately. It's not corp theft, I would describe it as alliance theft. The ruling body of the alliance stayed, so all the assets belong to the alliance. They didn't have shares in the alliance, just a corp that was created with shares give so that alliance members can be sure the funds weren't used by the executor corp. This theft will make it hard for alliances to trust members and will keep alliance funds and station minerals more closed from average alliance members. There will be a lot more chatter in alliance chat in regards to "where is all the alliance isk going? where are the station refine minerals going?" If this was a corp thing sure, well played, but this corp was holding alliance funds and minerals, it was not the property of the corp. It's alliance theft. Very low.
Alowishus	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:49:00 - [32] Originally by: Kozak It wasn't enough to turn your back on SE, you had to steal from them aswell. Very lame. I hope if SA ever breaks up, someone steals their assets too. Very lame. Enjoy it. Atleast you can use that isk to buy some ship, won't get your dignity back though. Bwahahahaha! Sore Lozerz indeed. You guys just sound bitter now. Cujo and AmarrCEO were getting 2 billion isk per month from SE members, isk that wasn't used for anything for anyone in the alliance. Cujo and AmarrCEO stole from SE, most of SE becomes SA and take back what was theirs. Sounds ideal to me. Anyone who believes that Cujo and AmarrCEO weren't ripping everyone off either wasn't in SE or was somehow benefiting from their selfish ways. Good show SA.
Diamond Dog	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:55:00 - [33] Originally by: Kozak It is theft because you can't control things in EVE as you could in the real world, hence you shouldn't compare every aspect of gameplay to how things work in the real world. For us to avoid this, we would have had to sit with the Alliance window open, watching which corporations pulled out, then kick those members out of the corp immediately. It's not corp theft, I would describe it as alliance theft. The ruling body of the alliance stayed, so all the assets belong to the alliance. They didn't have shares in the alliance, just a corp that was created with shares give so that alliance members can be sure the funds weren't used by the executor corp. This theft will make it hard for alliances to trust members and will keep alliance funds and station minerals more closed from average alliance members. There will be a lot more chatter in alliance chat in regards to "where is all the alliance isk going? where are the station refine minerals going?" If this was a corp thing sure, well played, but this corp was holding alliance funds and minerals, it was not the property of the corp. It's alliance theft. Very low. But this game is built around buisness.. This game revolves around money. And to be honest... I don't give a toss about how you feel about this because the only thing I've ever seen you do is run your mouth on the forums spewing utter rubbish. Allthough.. I don't see anything there to classify this as a theft.. It was done using the ingame share system CCP provided us with.. Hostile takeover yes. Theft? I disagree.. Note that I only just heard about this. Cheers. DD ________________________________________
pshepherd	Posted - 2005.09.15 21:56:00 - [34] i have no idea 'what' happened with all the SEL stuff, but look at it like this: We're at war, that means we're trying to inflict both monetory and psycological damage on every remaining member in SE... And judging from your reaction, we got some nice stuff. Its war, its 0.0, no-body is gonna be civil. And the giving away Catch thing while you were loosing was equally as cheeky as this
Hydrocarbon	Posted - 2005.09.15 22:03:00 - [35] Originally by: Sovereign1100 Wah! We didn't know how to set up a secure beaurocracy and it bit us in the arse! It's someone else's fault that we distributed too many shares! God, at least those guys from FA who had their station stolen could blame poor in-game security controls. All you can do is cry about your leaders' incompotence and untrustworthiness. That's gotta suck.
Kazim	Posted - 2005.09.15 22:17:00 - [36] Originally by: Kozak It is theft because you can't control things in EVE as you could in the real world, hence you shouldn't compare every aspect of gameplay to how things work in the real world. For us to avoid this, we would have had to sit with the Alliance window open, watching which corporations pulled out, then kick those members out of the corp immediately. It's not corp theft, I would describe it as alliance theft. The ruling body of the alliance stayed, so all the assets belong to the alliance. They didn't have shares in the alliance, just a corp that was created with shares give so that alliance members can be sure the funds weren't used by the executor corp. This theft will make it hard for alliances to trust members and will keep alliance funds and station minerals more closed from average alliance members. There will be a lot more chatter in alliance chat in regards to "where is all the alliance isk going? where are the station refine minerals going?" If this was a corp thing sure, well played, but this corp was holding alliance funds and minerals, it was not the property of the corp. It's alliance theft. Very low. Kozak... your whine gets sweeter every time...
Halo Jones	Posted - 2005.09.15 22:36:00 - [37] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) Just to make a point exceptionally clear. Oberon has never held an alt within SEL. We have never owned an SEL share. We did not participate in the ejection vote. You are completely wrong on this matter Maya Rkell. Oberon Incorporated.
FalloutBoy	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:11:00 - [38] Originally by: Halo Jones Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) Just to make a point exceptionally clear. Oberon has never held an alt within SEL. We have never owned an SEL share. We did not participate in the ejection vote. You are completely wrong on this matter Maya Rkell. you are affiliated with people that did this though so you don't smell any better regardless need a sig? Gallery Contact me for more information
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:12:00 - [39] Ingame mechanics allow anyone with rights to hangars to clear out those hangars and leave the corp. Ingame mechanics do not allow an alliance to control alliance stations. All you are allowed to do is to create a corp to hold those assets. This was done and shares to member corps were given to shut up those in alliance chat always asking where the funds were going. It's the lack of alliance control that allowed this. Yes, ingame mechanics let this happen, but that doesn't mean it's right. And to those that say it's war - does that mean if a body of mine from an SA corp steals all the funds from his corp then comes over to SE that makes it right, but if he didn't join SE then it's wrong?
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:13:00 - [40] BTW, what is up with all this namecalling? Why can't you just talk about the topic? The only little *****e$ I see on this forum and the smack talking ones.
Diamond Dog	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:21:00 - [41] Originally by: FalloutBoy Originally by: Halo Jones Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) Just to make a point exceptionally clear. Oberon has never held an alt within SEL. We have never owned an SEL share. We did not participate in the ejection vote. You are completely wrong on this matter Maya Rkell. you are affiliated with people that did this though so you don't smell any better regardless @FalloutBoy I'm gonna quote Mongo Peck and say "YAP YAP" ________________________________________
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:22:00 - [42] Originally by: Darken Two Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) What the hell you talkin about? And why on earth have you quoted me? If you are intent on making no sense, please dont drag me into your warped little world. Making perfect sense. I was poking you and saying that I don't have a problem with it. (It's a nice piece of strategic judo. Legit, and a nice payback for Catch). Seems I did fine on the poke :) "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:22:00 - [43] Originally by: Halo Jones Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) Just to make a point exceptionally clear. Oberon has never held an alt within SEL. We have never owned an SEL share. We did not participate in the ejection vote. You are completely wrong on this matter Maya Rkell. And you can't actually read. np. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Mitch Taylor	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:26:00 - [44] /emote sighs
Sceartan	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:32:00 - [45] Anyone miss the part claiming it was a majority vote by shareholders that the CEO be changed? This is a legitimate facility inbuilt into corporations and therefore isn't a theft no matter how much you complain it is. Moving all the assests of a corp to your private hangar after finally being declared a Director is a theft (ala: the GHSC event).
Arud	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:36:00 - [46] Kozak, Hi again :) Should all SE assets, what the 25+ corps worked for now belong to 5-6 corps left in SE living in empire? We were not going to let those few run away with all that the 25+ corps had worked for. These assets were earned by corps living in Stain and will stay with these same corps living in Stain. Some might end up with some current SE corps, that has not been discussed yet.
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:37:00 - [47] Absolutely. Anyone bashing Overkill and SA both in the last few days needs a reality check, incidently. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Kuang	Posted - 2005.09.15 23:47:00 - [48] Doesn't matter who got what IT'S A CIVIL WAR ... normally this can't happen but when 1/2 or more join the other side .. this can happen ... the ceo of the exec corp should have been more vigilant ... but atleast if another civil war happens hope others learn from mistakes here It sucks for SE and is a great coupe for SA ... basically the majority of the corps that left took advantage and scored an Econ victory for SA http://virii.homeip.net/
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:12:00 - [49] Originally by: Arud Kozak, Hi again :) Should all SE assets, what the 25+ corps worked for now belong to 5-6 corps left in SE living in empire? We were not going to let those few run away with all that the 25+ corps had worked for. These assets were earned by corps living in Stain and will stay with these same corps living in Stain. Some might end up with some current SE corps, that has not been discussed yet. That is true, let me just clarify my position though. There are no game mechanics for an alliance to hold alliance assets. There has to be a corp to control it. If you take from the corp, you take from the alliance. That said. When you leave the alliance, you forfiet your take. If I worked at a company and used their facilities and used their equipment to create a product, I have NO RIGHTS to that product or the money it brings in. The shares were given to make sure the funds were used for the GOOD OF THE ALLIANCE, not the several corps leaving. The executor corp stayed as did a few other corporations. They could have just left the alliance and asked for their share. Joining the enemy and taking it is wrong. Doesn't matter if game mechanics allow it. Game mechanics allow many things, that's why there are bannable actions in EVE. Just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should. If Cujo ran off with all the funds and all the minerals, that would have been wrong. Game mechanics would have allowed it, but he wouldn't do it, he's a better person than that. Arud, why does it seem that you're the only one out of MASS not acting like a total douche?
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:15:00 - [50] Except, they had most of the shares. So you didn't own the materials, they did. Oops. VERY much oops. It is a nasty move on their part. It is, however, legitimate. And your move with Catch was also nasty. I think both are very amusing. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:18:00 - [51] As another example I'd like to point out that when Species left SGE, we left all the corp assets even thought more then half the corp left. There were enough people left in the corp as well as the CEO that it would have been wrong to take anything. We benefited from being in the corp and would not earned those things if we were not in the corp. Basically if you say that because there were more corps leaving, it means that if 51 corporations out of 100 in an alliance decide to leave the alliance, they are entitled to all the assetts of the alliance. That just doesn't seem right to me.
Christopher Multsanti	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:21:00 - [52] Theft or not, call it whatever makes you feel happy, it dosent matter. It was a damn smart move. Thorax FTW!
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:23:00 - [53] Originally by: Maya Rkell Except, they had most of the shares. So you didn't own the materials, they did. Oops. VERY much oops. It is a nasty move on their part. It is, however, legitimate. And your move with Catch was also nasty. I think both are very amusing. Well, it's all about trust. About Catch region, TheBold was informed that it would go to FIX when he didn't accept our offer. So that was not decieving in any way. We told them it would happen. It is about trust. We trusted every member in SE. Even though some left, we knew they were doing it for their corporation. To shoot us, I understand, they do what their alliance tells them, but to do such a 180 as to steal from people you've played with for over a year? It's like having your directors rob your corp cause they wanted to start a new one.
Psych0	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:33:00 - [54] To steal something you have to take it.. AFAIK all SEL items are still in SEL.. so just what did we steal if no items have left the corp ?. And corps here work like in the real world if you dont control atleast 51% there is the posibility of you losing power of it.. If the majority votes you out.. There might not be any direct alliance assest control but werent the alliance in control of the corp ?. oh and who says the share holders have to work/be in the corp ?. It doesnt matter they have the shares and together they had the majority meaning they have the power over the corp and all its assests.
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:38:00 - [55] You are really telling me that if 51% SA decide to leave SA, they have the right to all the alliance assets? You would be ok with that, cause if you trully believe you would not mind that at all, I'll have nothing more to say about this.
Celticjim	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:42:00 - [56] Originally by: Kozak Originally by: Arud Kozak, Hi again :) If Cujo ran off with all the funds and all the minerals, that would have been wrong. Game mechanics would have allowed it, but he wouldn't do it, he's a better person than that. Arud, why does it seem that you're the only one out of MASS not acting like a total douche? For the love of God Kozak...are you really this daft?!!!!Have us and about 20 other Old Farts still ingame been screaming at the top of their lungs so you can continue to look at your purple sky? He DID do this to us way back when. For me this is the ultimate payback. Took almost two years, but karma sucks. My only condolensces is the fact alot of other people got involved. JC almighty. Ask Duke, Ask what happened back then. Let's say, lets just say, he didn't get any BPO's back when BPO's were expensive, but he got other stuff. What did he take or manage to grab? Hell the one thing I can't believe is the god d$#n blind devotion Species has to that man. If it sounds personal, absolutely is. Cujo went from hero to zero in a matter of 5 seconds back then. Later I thought I was wrong, but after reading the mess that is a Scrabble board here and the numbers being bandied about..whatever. Yup..no alt 4tw here. Karma sucks. Time to get the chips off your shoulder and deal with it as I have been told in the past. CJ
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:42:00 - [57] Originally by: Kozak As another example I'd like to point out that when Species left SGE, we left all the corp assets even thought more then half the corp left. There were enough people left in the corp as well as the CEO that it would have been wrong to take anything. We benefited from being in the corp and would not earned those things if we were not in the corp. Basically if you say that because there were more corps leaving, it means that if 51 corporations out of 100 in an alliance decide to leave the alliance, they are entitled to all the assetts of the alliance. That just doesn't seem right to me. Shares. Not corperations. Not people. Shares. You didn't hold your shares closely. Oops. "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Psych0	Posted - 2005.09.16 00:43:00 - [58] Edited by: Psych0 on 16/09/2005 00:43:14 Originally by: Kozak You are really telling me that if 51% SA decide to leave SA, they have the right to all the alliance assets? You would be ok with that, cause if you trully believe you would not mind that at all, I'll have nothing more to say about this. Are you just sitting hitting refresh If 51% then they would have the power to do what ever they wanted just like in the real world, the last 49% wouldnt be able to do anything since they doesnt hold the majority. Ofc i wouldnt be happy about it, but it is hardcore buisness. I wouldnt be able to do anything about it since im no longer in control.
DeathForMeh	Posted - 2005.09.16 01:02:00 - [59] Originally by: Psych0 Edited by: Psych0 on 16/09/2005 00:43:14 Originally by: Kozak You are really telling me that if 51% SA decide to leave SA, they have the right to all the alliance assets? You would be ok with that, cause if you trully believe you would not mind that at all, I'll have nothing more to say about this. Are you just sitting hitting refresh If 51% then they would have the power to do what ever they wanted just like in the real world, the last 49% wouldnt be able to do anything since they doesnt hold the majority. Ofc i wouldnt be happy about it, but it is hardcore buisness. I wouldnt be able to do anything about it since im no longer in control. Dont compare eve stuff to rl. For example where are corp by laws? If sel had by laws id bet it saw it was a holding compane for se and would stay se property for ever. Just cuz you have 51% of shares dosent mean you can say go f yourself by laws. So this whole lol ecomoics lol real world lol I'm a eve lawer lol is stupid. It was fair yeah but dont compare rl to eve.
Psych0	Posted - 2005.09.16 01:18:00 - [60] Edited by: Psych0 on 16/09/2005 01:19:12 Isnt eve RL There are alot of different type of corps in rl were we only have 1 type in eve. So you cant compare eve with rl, but there are simularities on how thinks work. If we started to compare i would think it very strange a bs can only move with about 500km/h when we got airplanes that can fly alot faster. oh well enough of this..
Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.16 01:21:00 - [61] The gameplay mechanics say yes, you can. So... "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Gort	Posted - 2005.09.16 01:23:00 - [62] This event can be validly characterized in a number of ways. Comments from independent outsiders, however, are solidly in favor of SA. Well played guys. It is war out there. It is 0.0. Mercenaries have been hired by one side to involve empire space. Bring it on.
Marcus Grisbius	Posted - 2005.09.16 02:24:00 - [63] I think the problem is that in order to control the stations and alliance assets you have to have a separate holding corp. Most alliances have alts of CEOs that have shares to run the alliance assets in there. The intent of those shares is not to own the assets personally but in reality the game mechanics assign that as property. Whenever a corp leaves the alliance, you can't get the shares back from the shareholders unless they give them back. So in this case this organization setup bit SE in the butt. I don't think it was ethical either, but definitely within the ingame mechanics. Sure you can say that the corps leaving are justified in taking something that belonged to the alliance, but if you really wanted what the alliance had, you should have stayed with it. You have to take the good with the bad sometimes. I know many people would disagree, but just my take on it. Some may say it's war so it's fair, but it's still borderline. There wasnt much SE or anyone else in any alliance with a similar setup can do to keep it from happening. Is it an exploit, no. Should there be mechanics in alliance structures to help run them more efficiently, yes. Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
Darkrydar	Posted - 2005.09.16 02:53:00 - [64] Its a pity that Amarr CEO can't afford to buy a proper cloak anymore to smuggle his bpo's out of Stain. Nice Fittings OMG, WE'RE UBER (POS KILLS for the nubs)
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 03:13:00 - [65] Here's the thing, until a problem is found, it's not a problem. That is how many things in EVE work. I bet sometime in the future CCP will fix it so that an alliance can keep the assets and the executor corp control those assets for the alliance. Game mechanics allow a lot of things, doesn't mean it's the way it was meant to work. Anyway, it's lame no matter how you look at it.
DeathForMeh	Posted - 2005.09.16 04:31:00 - [66] Edited by: DeathForMeh on 16/09/2005 04:32:48 Originally by: Kozak Here's the thing, until a problem is found, it's not a problem. That is how many things in EVE work. I bet sometime in the future CCP will fix it so that an alliance can keep the assets and the executor corp control those assets for the alliance. Game mechanics allow a lot of things, doesn't mean it's the way it was meant to work. Anyway, it's lame no matter how you look at it. yeah its called put it in the executors corp hangers. Originally by: Psych0 Edited by: Psych0 on 16/09/2005 01:19:12 Isnt eve RL So you cant compare eve with rl, Yes lets agree to this, i really wanted to offer rl examples but good god i stopedx
Halseth Durn	Posted - 2005.09.16 04:32:00 - [67] Edited by: Halseth Durn on 16/09/2005 04:34:09 Oberon-inc has been in several alliances. Stain Alliance, the Syndicate-Placid Commonwealth, the NVA, The Phoenix Alliance, the Stain Empire and now full circle to the Stain Alliance. From shortly after release, we (oberon) have done everything from lowly web-support to top-seat leadership in these alliances. Since the beginning we have had one simple rule; "don't touch money that is not yours" Oberon has purposely never had any access through shares or alts to any alliances pooled recources. Why? Because a lot of people are dowright stupid and mixing friends and money is just as bad an idea in the virtual world as in the real world. Besides, if Halo Jones says something, you can bank on it. Just ask any one of the gazzilion people he has done business with. Hal "You know what?!?!? cancer can suck my ?&%$!!!
Randay	Posted - 2005.09.16 05:02:00 - [68] I dont see why OI is trying so hard to deny all involvement in the actions of its own Alliance. If they feel so strongly about these kinds of actions then they probably dont belong in the alliance that has commited them? ------------------------------------------- "Det hõr kan betyda krig!"
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.09.16 05:11:00 - [69] Originally by: Randay I dont see why OI is trying so hard to deny all involvement in the actions of its own Alliance. If they feel so strongly about these kinds of actions then they probably dont belong in the alliance that has commited them? Probably because it's the truth. I have worked with OI before and like Halseth said, they purposely keep themselves from being in a position where they have access to the pooled resources of the alliance so they cannot be accused of any misconduct. Fairly easy to understand. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.09.16 05:15:00 - [70] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) What the hell you talkin about? And why on earth have you quoted me? If you are intent on making no sense, please dont drag me into your warped little world. Making perfect sense. I was poking you and saying that I don't have a problem with it. (It's a nice piece of strategic judo. Legit, and a nice payback for Catch). Seems I did fine on the poke :) What poke? Seems you can't read the tag under my name that says "Forsaken Empire". I dont care who did what. I dont even know where the hell catch is. I know how OI operate and that all I was commenting on. Your verbal Judo seems more like verbal nonsense. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
Darkrydar	Posted - 2005.09.16 05:56:00 - [71] Originally by: Randay I dont see why OI is trying so hard to deny all involvement in the actions of its own Alliance. If they feel so strongly about these kinds of actions then they probably dont belong in the alliance that has commited them? Why don you just give them some legal advice, ok? OMG, WE'RE UBER (POS KILLS for the nubs)
Randay	Posted - 2005.09.16 06:21:00 - [72] Originally by: Darken Two Probably because it's the truth. I have worked with OI before and like Halseth said, they purposely keep themselves from being in a position where they have access to the pooled resources of the alliance so they cannot be accused of any misconduct. Fairly easy to understand. Oh I believe them, I guess they are just gonna roll with it though. People have thier opinions on it and it applies to the entire SA alliance, OI will have to live with the fact that the alliances rep will probably rub off on thier own a little. I guess denying that they themselves would do anything like that does help a little though. ------------------------------------------- "Det hõr kan betyda krig!"
Randay	Posted - 2005.09.16 06:40:00 - [73] Originally by: Darkrydar Why don you just give them some legal advice, ok? because im not a lawyer, they dont need any, i dont know them, and its just a game. ok i answered your question, now you answer mine. How many trolls did you have to savagely maul before they declared you thier king? ------------------------------------------- "Det hõr kan betyda krig!"
Sirilonwe	Posted - 2005.09.16 07:47:00 - [74] Edited by: Sirilonwe on 16/09/2005 07:50:56 Originally by: Kozak It is theft because you can't control things in EVE as you could in the real world, hence you shouldn't compare every aspect of gameplay to how things work in the real world. For us to avoid this, we would have had to sit with the Alliance window open, watching which corporations pulled out, then kick those members out of the corp immediately. It's not corp theft, I would describe it as alliance theft. The ruling body of the alliance stayed, so all the assets belong to the alliance. They didn't have shares in the alliance, just a corp that was created with shares give so that alliance members can be sure the funds weren't used by the executor corp. I'm sorry, but when you kick a member from a corporation, this member keeps the shares. So, even if you kicked every member of SEL, they keeped the shares and had the ability to take over even if they were not in Stain Empire anymore. It's a great tactical error to give away more than 50% of the shares. I was, a long time ago, CEO of a corp. This corp had 2000 shares. And today, I still have 1001 shares. Technically, this can't be considered as a thief, because the administration concil (which command the corp) has voted so. Because you don't agreed with the concil doesn't mean that this was a corp thief. And whatever you said, the Stain Empire was composed of thoses corps. Without thoses corps, SE is only the shadow of itself. Saying that the assets belongs to remaining corps of SE could be also considered as a thief. Thoses assets belongs to ALL SE corps (ex and currents) who as put some money in it. In real life, things like this have already happened, and will happen again and again, cause this is how capitalism works. _______________________ Forums DSU
Loka	Posted - 2005.09.16 07:57:00 - [75] You believe yourself ?? Lol. This assets was gathered as far as i know, by members of SE. At best this assets should have been shared between the SE corps, before leaving. You said 80% of SE left for SA? Then give 20% back to SE member. Lol i doubt you would do this. If i would bee Trigger, i wouldnt give you any access to any assets. You proved of thinking of yourself first, when ** hit the fan. Again this assets should have been shared at the moment it was clear, that most corps would be leaving. Well some have no honor imo. I would never dare to take money, which i havent earned alone, without asking the other involved in earning. But probably my education is different from other ;) Also the "hostile takeover". You are right, you cant decide when you dont hold 51% of the shares, without others sharing your opinion. But even after the takeover, 49% of whatever is worth something is yours. So basicly if you would be ed, because your company would have been sold you would get 49% of the money. SE got 0%. <- = Thiefery. _________________________ Dead or Alive**
Aeryn Sun	Posted - 2005.09.16 08:22:00 - [76] Howdy A long time ago (actually in a galaxy not that far away) we ordered the formation of SEL. SE became wealthy and organized during the CA war, SEL was a huge contributing entity to that success. Licorne and others of IGS did a fantastic job in running the logistics of our alliance back then. (just to clarify) Now, we (the group that split off after the CA war) are Stain. We always have been, and always will. When we saw that SE was in trouble and people in power were not being honest we decided to come back and clean the house. (again, just to clarify) For one, most corporations pledged support and loyality to their former commanders and their emperor. That is the main reason why majority of the SE corporations joined SA in the first few days. (shiis... again to clarify) Now... to the point. Our takeover of SEL is not theft. It was a tactic. We created sa***uards when we left SE to ensure that if the alliance needed, we could step in and clean house, as it were. We used them to the better of Stain. How is that wrong? thank you, Aeryn Sun Stain Alliance Fleet Admiral
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 11:35:00 - [77] It's wrong because shares in EVE don't work like shares in RL. They don't cost any ISK. They have no value then voting right. No one could have forseen this when creating SEL. And Aryn, get off your high horse. Now you're saying you did this because we were liers and untrustworthy. Whatever, you have some moral supository up your ass and it's clouding your vision. Even though most are saying the because game mechanics allow this that it's legal, but everyone is saying it's lame. Seems that makes SA a legal but LAME alliance. I'm OK with that.
Aeryn Sun	Posted - 2005.09.16 11:40:00 - [78] eh.. no need to smack m8 And my horse is a pony bud, not that high. /Aeryn
SPUFFofDoG	Posted - 2005.09.16 11:59:00 - [79] I cant see that SA have done anything wrong, but as most have pointed out those assets belong to ALL corps (current & ex) from SE/SA. The point at which i feel the argument starts to fall down for SA is that ALL the assets were actually removed & not kept in SEL, i hope when this is settled that SA do the honourable thing & devide a large percentage of those assets up between ALL corps involved. Until then those assets, as they are not available to one party in this dispute should be frozen until said dispute was settled.
Dominic Tenan	Posted - 2005.09.16 12:37:00 - [80] Nice move SA ---------------- Vice President Omnicore Systems
Loka	Posted - 2005.09.16 13:52:00 - [81] Originally by: Dominic Tenan Nice move SA not nice, but smart _________________________ Dead or Alive
Jolly Focker	Posted - 2005.09.16 13:56:00 - [82] Originally by: SPUFFofDoG i hope when this is settled that SA do the honourable thing & devide a large percentage of those assets up between ALL corps involved. I yet have to see info on what has been theft/transferred/aquired? We speak of Species/AGDA controlled assets here, wonder how much was left? You can't split up nothing. Or something close to nothing.
Hydrocarbon	Posted - 2005.09.16 15:45:00 - [83] Originally by: Kozak They don't cost any ISK. They have no value then voting right. If you give them away for free, it's nobody's fault but your own. INTELLIGENT CEO's make their shares worth something. You do know that you can buy shares back, right? You can also issue more shares as well. Originally by: Kozak No one could have forseen this when creating SEL. Then everyone who created SEL was a moron. It isn't any great feat of genious to say "Say, if we give out too many shares, we might lose control of the company." Originally by: Kozak but everyone is saying it's lame. Better look again. Sure, some people are saying it's lame, but it's far from EVERYONE.

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