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Regarding [S E L]

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Maya Rkell	Posted - 2005.09.16 01:21:00 - [61] The gameplay mechanics say yes, you can. So... "Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted."
Gort	Posted - 2005.09.16 01:23:00 - [62] This event can be validly characterized in a number of ways. Comments from independent outsiders, however, are solidly in favor of SA. Well played guys. It is war out there. It is 0.0. Mercenaries have been hired by one side to involve empire space. Bring it on.
Marcus Grisbius	Posted - 2005.09.16 02:24:00 - [63] I think the problem is that in order to control the stations and alliance assets you have to have a separate holding corp. Most alliances have alts of CEOs that have shares to run the alliance assets in there. The intent of those shares is not to own the assets personally but in reality the game mechanics assign that as property. Whenever a corp leaves the alliance, you can't get the shares back from the shareholders unless they give them back. So in this case this organization setup bit SE in the butt. I don't think it was ethical either, but definitely within the ingame mechanics. Sure you can say that the corps leaving are justified in taking something that belonged to the alliance, but if you really wanted what the alliance had, you should have stayed with it. You have to take the good with the bad sometimes. I know many people would disagree, but just my take on it. Some may say it's war so it's fair, but it's still borderline. There wasnt much SE or anyone else in any alliance with a similar setup can do to keep it from happening. Is it an exploit, no. Should there be mechanics in alliance structures to help run them more efficiently, yes. Certainty of death... little chance of success... what are we waiting for? - Gimli, son of Gloinn
Darkrydar	Posted - 2005.09.16 02:53:00 - [64] Its a pity that Amarr CEO can't afford to buy a proper cloak anymore to smuggle his bpo's out of Stain. Nice Fittings OMG, WE'RE UBER (POS KILLS for the nubs)
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 03:13:00 - [65] Here's the thing, until a problem is found, it's not a problem. That is how many things in EVE work. I bet sometime in the future CCP will fix it so that an alliance can keep the assets and the executor corp control those assets for the alliance. Game mechanics allow a lot of things, doesn't mean it's the way it was meant to work. Anyway, it's lame no matter how you look at it.
DeathForMeh	Posted - 2005.09.16 04:31:00 - [66] Edited by: DeathForMeh on 16/09/2005 04:32:48 Originally by: Kozak Here's the thing, until a problem is found, it's not a problem. That is how many things in EVE work. I bet sometime in the future CCP will fix it so that an alliance can keep the assets and the executor corp control those assets for the alliance. Game mechanics allow a lot of things, doesn't mean it's the way it was meant to work. Anyway, it's lame no matter how you look at it. yeah its called put it in the executors corp hangers. Originally by: Psych0 Edited by: Psych0 on 16/09/2005 01:19:12 Isnt eve RL So you cant compare eve with rl, Yes lets agree to this, i really wanted to offer rl examples but good god i stopedx
Halseth Durn	Posted - 2005.09.16 04:32:00 - [67] Edited by: Halseth Durn on 16/09/2005 04:34:09 Oberon-inc has been in several alliances. Stain Alliance, the Syndicate-Placid Commonwealth, the NVA, The Phoenix Alliance, the Stain Empire and now full circle to the Stain Alliance. From shortly after release, we (oberon) have done everything from lowly web-support to top-seat leadership in these alliances. Since the beginning we have had one simple rule; "don't touch money that is not yours" Oberon has purposely never had any access through shares or alts to any alliances pooled recources. Why? Because a lot of people are dowright stupid and mixing friends and money is just as bad an idea in the virtual world as in the real world. Besides, if Halo Jones says something, you can bank on it. Just ask any one of the gazzilion people he has done business with. Hal "You know what?!?!? cancer can suck my ?&%$!!!
Randay	Posted - 2005.09.16 05:02:00 - [68] I dont see why OI is trying so hard to deny all involvement in the actions of its own Alliance. If they feel so strongly about these kinds of actions then they probably dont belong in the alliance that has commited them? ------------------------------------------- "Det hõr kan betyda krig!"
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.09.16 05:11:00 - [69] Originally by: Randay I dont see why OI is trying so hard to deny all involvement in the actions of its own Alliance. If they feel so strongly about these kinds of actions then they probably dont belong in the alliance that has commited them? Probably because it's the truth. I have worked with OI before and like Halseth said, they purposely keep themselves from being in a position where they have access to the pooled resources of the alliance so they cannot be accused of any misconduct. Fairly easy to understand. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
Darken Two	Posted - 2005.09.16 05:15:00 - [70] Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Originally by: Maya Rkell Originally by: Darken Two Oberon would never steal anything. They are too good for that kinda crap. LOL. So yea... Look. They had the shares. Shares mean corp control. If they were not closely held, cry more. (incidently, yes, this is why I consider HDY's closure corp theft) What the hell you talkin about? And why on earth have you quoted me? If you are intent on making no sense, please dont drag me into your warped little world. Making perfect sense. I was poking you and saying that I don't have a problem with it. (It's a nice piece of strategic judo. Legit, and a nice payback for Catch). Seems I did fine on the poke :) What poke? Seems you can't read the tag under my name that says "Forsaken Empire". I dont care who did what. I dont even know where the hell catch is. I know how OI operate and that all I was commenting on. Your verbal Judo seems more like verbal nonsense. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
Darkrydar	Posted - 2005.09.16 05:56:00 - [71] Originally by: Randay I dont see why OI is trying so hard to deny all involvement in the actions of its own Alliance. If they feel so strongly about these kinds of actions then they probably dont belong in the alliance that has commited them? Why don you just give them some legal advice, ok? OMG, WE'RE UBER (POS KILLS for the nubs)
Randay	Posted - 2005.09.16 06:21:00 - [72] Originally by: Darken Two Probably because it's the truth. I have worked with OI before and like Halseth said, they purposely keep themselves from being in a position where they have access to the pooled resources of the alliance so they cannot be accused of any misconduct. Fairly easy to understand. Oh I believe them, I guess they are just gonna roll with it though. People have thier opinions on it and it applies to the entire SA alliance, OI will have to live with the fact that the alliances rep will probably rub off on thier own a little. I guess denying that they themselves would do anything like that does help a little though. ------------------------------------------- "Det hõr kan betyda krig!"
Randay	Posted - 2005.09.16 06:40:00 - [73] Originally by: Darkrydar Why don you just give them some legal advice, ok? because im not a lawyer, they dont need any, i dont know them, and its just a game. ok i answered your question, now you answer mine. How many trolls did you have to savagely maul before they declared you thier king? ------------------------------------------- "Det hõr kan betyda krig!"
Sirilonwe	Posted - 2005.09.16 07:47:00 - [74] Edited by: Sirilonwe on 16/09/2005 07:50:56 Originally by: Kozak It is theft because you can't control things in EVE as you could in the real world, hence you shouldn't compare every aspect of gameplay to how things work in the real world. For us to avoid this, we would have had to sit with the Alliance window open, watching which corporations pulled out, then kick those members out of the corp immediately. It's not corp theft, I would describe it as alliance theft. The ruling body of the alliance stayed, so all the assets belong to the alliance. They didn't have shares in the alliance, just a corp that was created with shares give so that alliance members can be sure the funds weren't used by the executor corp. I'm sorry, but when you kick a member from a corporation, this member keeps the shares. So, even if you kicked every member of SEL, they keeped the shares and had the ability to take over even if they were not in Stain Empire anymore. It's a great tactical error to give away more than 50% of the shares. I was, a long time ago, CEO of a corp. This corp had 2000 shares. And today, I still have 1001 shares. Technically, this can't be considered as a thief, because the administration concil (which command the corp) has voted so. Because you don't agreed with the concil doesn't mean that this was a corp thief. And whatever you said, the Stain Empire was composed of thoses corps. Without thoses corps, SE is only the shadow of itself. Saying that the assets belongs to remaining corps of SE could be also considered as a thief. Thoses assets belongs to ALL SE corps (ex and currents) who as put some money in it. In real life, things like this have already happened, and will happen again and again, cause this is how capitalism works. _______________________ Forums DSU
Loka	Posted - 2005.09.16 07:57:00 - [75] You believe yourself ?? Lol. This assets was gathered as far as i know, by members of SE. At best this assets should have been shared between the SE corps, before leaving. You said 80% of SE left for SA? Then give 20% back to SE member. Lol i doubt you would do this. If i would bee Trigger, i wouldnt give you any access to any assets. You proved of thinking of yourself first, when ** hit the fan. Again this assets should have been shared at the moment it was clear, that most corps would be leaving. Well some have no honor imo. I would never dare to take money, which i havent earned alone, without asking the other involved in earning. But probably my education is different from other ;) Also the "hostile takeover". You are right, you cant decide when you dont hold 51% of the shares, without others sharing your opinion. But even after the takeover, 49% of whatever is worth something is yours. So basicly if you would be ed, because your company would have been sold you would get 49% of the money. SE got 0%. <- = Thiefery. _________________________ Dead or Alive**
Aeryn Sun	Posted - 2005.09.16 08:22:00 - [76] Howdy A long time ago (actually in a galaxy not that far away) we ordered the formation of SEL. SE became wealthy and organized during the CA war, SEL was a huge contributing entity to that success. Licorne and others of IGS did a fantastic job in running the logistics of our alliance back then. (just to clarify) Now, we (the group that split off after the CA war) are Stain. We always have been, and always will. When we saw that SE was in trouble and people in power were not being honest we decided to come back and clean the house. (again, just to clarify) For one, most corporations pledged support and loyality to their former commanders and their emperor. That is the main reason why majority of the SE corporations joined SA in the first few days. (shiis... again to clarify) Now... to the point. Our takeover of SEL is not theft. It was a tactic. We created sa***uards when we left SE to ensure that if the alliance needed, we could step in and clean house, as it were. We used them to the better of Stain. How is that wrong? thank you, Aeryn Sun Stain Alliance Fleet Admiral
Kozak	Posted - 2005.09.16 11:35:00 - [77] It's wrong because shares in EVE don't work like shares in RL. They don't cost any ISK. They have no value then voting right. No one could have forseen this when creating SEL. And Aryn, get off your high horse. Now you're saying you did this because we were liers and untrustworthy. Whatever, you have some moral supository up your ass and it's clouding your vision. Even though most are saying the because game mechanics allow this that it's legal, but everyone is saying it's lame. Seems that makes SA a legal but LAME alliance. I'm OK with that.
Aeryn Sun	Posted - 2005.09.16 11:40:00 - [78] eh.. no need to smack m8 And my horse is a pony bud, not that high. /Aeryn
SPUFFofDoG	Posted - 2005.09.16 11:59:00 - [79] I cant see that SA have done anything wrong, but as most have pointed out those assets belong to ALL corps (current & ex) from SE/SA. The point at which i feel the argument starts to fall down for SA is that ALL the assets were actually removed & not kept in SEL, i hope when this is settled that SA do the honourable thing & devide a large percentage of those assets up between ALL corps involved. Until then those assets, as they are not available to one party in this dispute should be frozen until said dispute was settled.
Dominic Tenan	Posted - 2005.09.16 12:37:00 - [80] Nice move SA ---------------- Vice President Omnicore Systems
Loka	Posted - 2005.09.16 13:52:00 - [81] Originally by: Dominic Tenan Nice move SA not nice, but smart _________________________ Dead or Alive
Jolly Focker	Posted - 2005.09.16 13:56:00 - [82] Originally by: SPUFFofDoG i hope when this is settled that SA do the honourable thing & devide a large percentage of those assets up between ALL corps involved. I yet have to see info on what has been theft/transferred/aquired? We speak of Species/AGDA controlled assets here, wonder how much was left? You can't split up nothing. Or something close to nothing.
Hydrocarbon	Posted - 2005.09.16 15:45:00 - [83] Originally by: Kozak They don't cost any ISK. They have no value then voting right. If you give them away for free, it's nobody's fault but your own. INTELLIGENT CEO's make their shares worth something. You do know that you can buy shares back, right? You can also issue more shares as well. Originally by: Kozak No one could have forseen this when creating SEL. Then everyone who created SEL was a moron. It isn't any great feat of genious to say "Say, if we give out too many shares, we might lose control of the company." Originally by: Kozak but everyone is saying it's lame. Better look again. Sure, some people are saying it's lame, but it's far from EVERYONE.

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