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Crellion
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Posted - 2005.09.15 17:51:00 -
[1]
Well it seems all other other weapon systems have been balanced... Guess whose turn its for ... the balancebat!
Seriously there are 2 big problems with lasers:
1) The Devs designed them (for the sake of variance and complexity I guess) as a weapon that does huge base damage. To counteract this they have kept the majority of ships that can fly them without dmg or rof bonuses.
2) They can only be used on ammar ships (at least same class weapons) due to the insane cap requirements.
3) Ammar ships have many low slots.
4) The devs -I think- did not realise (or ignored) the fact that they made lasers so powerfull. As a result the did not gimp their range (classical solution in other areas of the game. You pay for power with loss of range)
The syntesis of the two above is the problem. Because the ships that use them were to be burdened with the necessary cap bonus the devs in-built the high dmg, rof and tracking abilities. As a result:
a) Only ammar ships can use lasers
b) They begin having right off the bat the 3 AA damage bonuses, built in: Super damage, great rof, super tracking. On other races ships (wherein the ships dont have 1 bonus wasted to cap -granted-) you get 2 bonuses. If you are lucky its 2 of the above 3. If you arent its 1. But never 3 (while ALL ammar ships have all three in-built)
c) The many low slots create a problem when compared to other races. If you fit say 3 dmg mods in a non ammar ship you make your guns as powerfull as the ammar ship but with no tank. For example I am told that a geddon with ... say 6 Dual Heavy Beams and no dmg mods will do same dmg as say Domi with 6 dual 250 rails with 2-3 dmg mods (nd for much bettter tracking too). This is obviously open to exploit. You can either gang the geddon with 2-3 dmg mods as well and do more dmg on same tank or use no dmg mods, do same dmg and fit great tank to win. (Or simly go all gamk and obliterate but I dont want to make this a post about extreme set - ups). 5 more heavy drones on the Domi clearly wont address this imbalance.
d) Adding insult to injury the lasers are also too versatile range wise for their DOT...
What can be done about this?
Clearly the small beam nerf was a positive step the right way. However it was a bit too little (perhaps because of the outcry or CCPs alleged favouritism for ammar). After experiencing the missle "balancing" and other, daily almost, nerfs to anything excess (today I read about the Rax's bay nerf for example) I firmly believe that CCP is taking the right step in not making "half -ass" nerfs but doing it all the way. It is now IMO time to go back to lasers and finish the job properly.
HOW:
I am against drastic 180 changes if only having seen the anguish they have caused to Caldari pilots recently. I would therefore advocate for a more subtle change. A small cut all accross the board. Small tracking nerf for all lasers, very small damage and rof decrease, substantial decrease of the pg of amar ships and range decreases of -at least- beam lasers (again here lowering radio dmg was a positive step but only part of the solution).
Lasers after all are responsible for a great defgree of lack of versatility in the tanking department as well. 1 out of the 4 races only boothers with shield tank at all anymore and even they (Caldari) are daily creating threads about their attempts to armour tank their ships. The plates are not the problem. Counting shield regeneration its right that they give more pg than shield extenders. the problem is lasers vaporising shields of anything (including a raven) for fun.
Its all for the best IMO, these needs to happen, now, in this time of deep cuts in other areas of the game. It can not remain the chronic itching cyst on the backside of combat in eve.
There might be errors in this post and I will be gratefull for those that point them up in an honest and helpfull manner. 
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Elve Sorrow
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Posted - 2005.09.15 17:54:00 -
[2]
Wow.
Runner-up for clueless post of the year, and still in the race for first place, competing against the "Nerf Logistics, theyre overpowered" topic which i have in mind.
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TrAdEsMaN1
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Posted - 2005.09.15 17:55:00 -
[3]
Edited by: TrAdEsMaN1 on 15/09/2005 18:05:07
Edited by: TrAdEsMaN1 on 15/09/2005 18:00:51
Not a chance. Lasers do only em and thermal damage which lets be honest are the most tanked damages, and have u actually ever used a megapulse, even with t2 their damage is pathetic at 20km +. It is also very difficult to break an armor tank using lasers. Lasers are fine as they are. |
Na'Axin
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Posted - 2005.09.15 17:58:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Crellion
There might be errors in this post and I will be gratefull for those that point them up in an honest and helpfull manner.
here they are:
Quote:
Well it seems all other other weapon systems have been balanced... Guess whose turn its for ... the balancebat!
Seriously there are 2 big problems with lasers:
1) The Devs designed them (for the sake of variance and complexity I guess) as a weapon that does huge base damage. To counteract this they have kept the majority of ships that can fly them without dmg or rof bonuses.
2) They can only be used on ammar ships (at least same class weapons) due to the insane cap requirements.
3) Ammar ships have many low slots.
4) The devs -I think- did not realise (or ignored) the fact that they made lasers so powerfull. As a result the did not gimp their range (classical solution in other areas of the game. You pay for power with loss of range)
The syntesis of the two above is the problem. Because the ships that use them were to be burdened with the necessary cap bonus the devs in-built the high dmg, rof and tracking abilities. As a result:
a) Only ammar ships can use lasers
b) They begin having right off the bat the 3 AA damage bonuses, built in: Super damage, great rof, super tracking. On other races ships (wherein the ships dont have 1 bonus wasted to cap -granted-) you get 2 bonuses. If you are lucky its 2 of the above 3. If you arent its 1. But never 3 (while ALL ammar ships have all three in-built)
c) The many low slots create a problem when compared to other races. If you fit say 3 dmg mods in a non ammar ship you make your guns as powerfull as the ammar ship but with no tank. For example I am told that a geddon with ... say 6 Dual Heavy Beams and no dmg mods will do same dmg as say Domi with 6 dual 250 rails with 2-3 dmg mods (nd for much bettter tracking too). This is obviously open to exploit. You can either gang the geddon with 2-3 dmg mods as well and do more dmg on same tank or use no dmg mods, do same dmg and fit great tank to win. (Or simly go all gamk and obliterate but I dont want to make this a post about extreme set - ups). 5 more heavy drones on the Domi clearly wont address this imbalance.
d) Adding insult to injury the lasers are also too versatile range wise for their DOT...
What can be done about this?
Clearly the small beam nerf was a positive step the right way. However it was a bit too little (perhaps because of the outcry or CCPs alleged favouritism for ammar). After experiencing the missle "balancing" and other, daily almost, nerfs to anything excess (today I read about the Rax's bay nerf for example) I firmly believe that CCP is taking the right step in not making "half -ass" nerfs but doing it all the way. It is now IMO time to go back to lasers and finish the job properly.
HOW:
I am against drastic 180 changes if only having seen the anguish they have caused to Caldari pilots recently. I would therefore advocate for a more subtle change. A small cut all accross the board. Small tracking nerf for all lasers, very small damage and rof decrease, substantial decrease of the pg of amar ships and range decreases of -at least- beam lasers (again here lowering radio dmg was a positive step but only part of the solution).
Lasers after all are responsible for a great defgree of lack of versatility in the tanking department as well. 1 out of the 4 races only boothers with shield tank at all anymore and even they (Caldari) are daily creating threads about their attempts to armour tank their ships. The plates are not the problem. Counting shield regeneration its right that they give more pg than shield extenders. the problem is lasers vaporising shields of anything (including a raven) for fun.
Its all for the best IMO, these needs to happen, now, in this time of deep cuts in other areas of the game. It can not remain the chronic itching cyst on the...
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batardion
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Posted - 2005.09.15 18:01:00 -
[5]
Are those apocs in your sig m8?
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Slater Dogstar
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Posted - 2005.09.15 18:08:00 -
[6]
Originally by: batardion
Are those apocs in your sig m8?
Naa i think those are his mutant ears.
Every Time You Use A Warp Stab Ovyer Kills A Puppy!!! |
Na'Axin
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Posted - 2005.09.15 18:15:00 -
[7]
navy poc
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HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.09.15 18:17:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Wow.
Runner-up for clueless post of the year, and still in the race for first place, competing against the "Nerf Logistics, theyre overpowered" topic which i have in mind.
i didn't have to look at ur picture to see ur amarr
Originally by: Na'Axin
Originally by: Crellion
There might be errors in this post and I will be gratefull for those that point them up in an honest and helpfull manner.
here they are:
Originally by: Crellion
the whole OP
he did say "an honest and helpfull manner". was that honest or helpful?
and i think those ARE apocs in your sig...
explain WHY lasers should do more damage, have a higher ROF and tracking than rails, while having a slightly shorter range and STILL use no ammo?
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Dimitri Forgroth
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Posted - 2005.09.15 18:18:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Dimitri Forgroth on 15/09/2005 18:18:16
Originally by: Na'Axin
Originally by: Crellion
There might be errors in this post and I will be gratefull for those that point them up in an honest and helpfull manner.
here they are:
Quote:
Well it seems all other other weapon systems have been balanced... Guess whose turn its for ... the balancebat!
Seriously there are 2 big problems with lasers:
1) The Devs designed them (for the sake of variance and complexity I guess) as a weapon that does huge base damage. To counteract this they have kept the majority of ships that can fly them without dmg or rof bonuses.
....
Its all for the best IMO, these needs to happen, now, in this time of deep cuts in other areas of the game. It can not remain the chronic itching cyst on the...
Bahahahahaha. even if it's unhelpful, it's still a funny reply. 
Originally by: HippoKing
YES! i am in antoher person;s sig
/marks it off
taking over the world one sig at a time \o/
DPS Sheet |
SkullSmack
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Posted - 2005.09.15 18:27:00 -
[10]
"Well it seems all other other weapon systems have been balanced... Guess whose turn its for ... the balancebat!"
Yours perhaps?
Total BS dude. Go away.
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GoGo Yubari
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Posted - 2005.09.15 18:33:00 -
[11]
Ok, sure, but whatever you do ...
DON'T NERF THE VELATOR.
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Crellion
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Posted - 2005.09.15 18:42:00 -
[12]
To end this here:
Yes what I posted originally is all true and not all BS as some replied.
Yes there are numerous counter arguments and on the balance lasers are not that unbalanced after all.
No I didnt actually try to get lasrs nerfed with this post LOLZ
BUT everytime some silly egotistic ****** get some ship nerfed (like the Rax today) for no reason they will have to read one of these posts and shiver.
I have posted many times here asking for a stop to the continuous nerfingin these forums and those of you who have read those posts will understand why I posted this:
Stop it - enough - go crawl in your holes.
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xenorx
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:06:00 -
[13]
You sir have clearly never used a laser before nor do you have a clue to the history of lasers. Please dont post something like this without a clue.
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Tul 'Kas
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:08:00 -
[14]
Quote:
They begin having right off the bat the 3 AA damage bonuses, built in: Super damage, great rof, super tracking.
Since you separate it from ROF, I have to assume assume "super damage" refers not to DOT but to burst damage, of which Minmatar are the kings. ROF is only beneficial in its contribution to DOT, of which Amarr and Gallente seem pretty evenly matched - Minmatar and Caldari are theoretically able to make up for it by being more flexible in damage types, better able to hit a target's weak spots. Autocannons and blasters have notably better tracking than pulse lasers. Pulse track better, in effect, when used at their (notably longer) optimal range, but they are weaker than any other gun against a hi-speed close-range orbit. Quote:
For example I am told that a geddon with ... say 6 Dual Heavy Beams and no dmg mods will do same dmg as say Domi with 6 dual 250 rails with 2-3 dmg mods (nd for much bettter tracking too)...
5 more heavy drones on the Domi clearly wont address this imbalance.
The geddon is all about damage, but that's about all it can do. Domi has less DPS but more flexibility, which can often defeat pure damage. For instance, fit those two extra midslots with white noise jammers and a geddon isn't going to be doing much damage at all. Quote:
d) Adding insult to injury the lasers are also too versatile range wise for their DOT...
Range comes at the expense of falloff and absolute tracking. The latter as mentioned is a weakness against fast close orbiters, the former is a weakness relative to ships that do not need to stop shooting to load a different range ammo (crystal) nearly as often, also to extreme long-range setups that engage at optimal+falloff. Quote:
substantial decrease of the pg of amar ships
Large powergrid is because lasers have higher grid usage, I believe, also amarr ships are forced to armor tank (slots + low CPU). Quote:
Lasers after all are responsible for a great defgree of lack of versatility in the tanking department as well. 1 out of the 4 races only boothers with shield tank at all anymore and even they (Caldari) are daily creating threads about their attempts to armour tank their ships. The plates are not the problem. Counting shield regeneration its right that they give more pg than shield extenders.
This is more a matter of slot distribution IMHO, all except Caldari have 6 or more lowslots. Tempest and Dominix are 5 mid 6 low, they can and do go either way - note that Raven can armor tank as well as they can shield tank. All others have more lowslots than the Raven has mids. Plates vs. extenders imbalance comes down not to HP but fitting requirements.
Summary: lasers are fine.
And if you're wondering about my personal bias on the subject, large projectile 4, small energy 3, minmatar BS 4, amarr frigate 1.
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Isonkon Serikain
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:10:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Elve Sorrow
Wow.
Runner-up for clueless post of the year, and still in the race for first place, competing against the "Nerf Logistics, theyre overpowered" topic which i have in mind.
ROFL... not a polite way to put it, but yeah I aggree... Who uses logistics anyways... If Eve was a game of cars instead of starships, it would be like cruising around in a minivan... NO one thinks thats cool, at all...
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Tul 'Kas
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Posted - 2005.09.15 19:11:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Crellion
To end this here:
Yes what I posted originally is all true and not all BS as some replied.
Yes there are numerous counter arguments and on the balance lasers are not that unbalanced after all.
No I didnt actually try to get lasrs nerfed with this post LOLZ
BUT everytime some silly egotistic ****** get some ship nerfed (like the Rax today) for no reason they will have to read one of these posts and shiver.
I have posted many times here asking for a stop to the continuous nerfingin these forums and those of you who have read those posts will understand why I posted this:
Stop it - enough - go crawl in your holes.
pffft and I just put all that effort into being honest and helpful.
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Kyle Chimko
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Posted - 2005.09.15 20:18:00 -
[17]
I never knew my laser were so powerfull
--
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Idara
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Posted - 2005.09.15 20:27:00 -
[18]
Fear the EM damage. 
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Liu Kaskakka
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Posted - 2005.09.15 20:28:00 -
[19]
I have never shot a laser, thus I will support any and all nerfs to lasers.
/SIGNED & STICKIED!
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Randay
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Posted - 2005.09.15 20:31:00 -
[20]
LOL /agree but ill be a little more helpful. Lasers have already recently met the nerfbat in respect to range and damage. they need no more nerfing.
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"Det hõr kan betyda krig!" |
dirty thief
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Posted - 2005.09.15 20:36:00 -
[21]
Leave my lasers alone you taterhead.
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Iasus
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Posted - 2005.09.15 20:49:00 -
[22]
ever used a laser, Crellion?
Try it - you might give up this stupid 'nerf lasers' idea of yours.
Remember: Pillage, then burn |
LWMaverick
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:11:00 -
[23]
Crellion... you have NO idea.
Nothing to see here..
/Mav
If you want peace prepare for war ! |
Kehmor
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:13:00 -
[24]
I am a shield tanker so...
/signed
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Meridius
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:27:00 -
[25]
Yay, another clueless post. I haven't seen one of these in oh, a day.
Heh
________________________________________________________
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Talos Darkhart
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:43:00 -
[26]
And lo there was a great wailing and nashing of teeth.
Man the missle users did not whinge this much after the nerf nvm before it
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Na'Axin
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:50:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Talos Darkhart
Man the missle users did not whinge this much after the nerf nvm before it
they whined 4 months before it happenned and are still whining, so that ofcourse is the biggest bs
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flamingmarmo
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:52:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Crellion
I am against drastic 180 changes if only having seen the anguish they have caused to Caldari pilots recently. I would therefore advocate for a more subtle change. A small cut all accross the board. Small tracking nerf for all lasers, very small damage and rof decrease, substantial decrease of the pg of amar ships and range decreases of -at least- beam lasers (again here lowering radio dmg was a positive step but only part of the solution).
So you want to make beam lasers to small range to warrant fitting any way and cut the pg to make a weapon that already needs a mapc or 2 to fit. Something has 2 high fitting reqirements when the frigate with the most pg of any frigate cannot fit a full rack of them with out a mapc and 2 mapc if it wants to fit anything else.
The races in eve are balanced slot wise caldari have mid slots good for adversly affecting the performance of another ship, amarr have lots of lows good for enhancing your own performance. Gallente are leaning towards Lows but have more mids than amarr and Minmatar Leans towards midslots (gross simplifications but thats the principle as far as i can tell) So why should this need changing.
Originally by: Crellion
They begin having right off the bat the 3 AA damage bonuses, built in: Super damage, great rof, super tracking. On other races ships (wherein the ships dont have 1 bonus wasted to cap -granted-) you get 2 bonuses. If you are lucky its 2 of the above 3. If you arent its 1. But never 3 (while ALL ammar ships have all three in-built)
Have you ever fired a Laser from a amarr ship with only the basic req for it, yes you might get a built in bonus but for example firing a geddon with t1megapulse and l1-2 in amarr bs will drain your cap in about 20seconds even with l4 cap skills and 3-4 cap modules so you can't do anything clearly overowered yet fire it at l4 you wont have the cap problems but other races will have the bonuses for there weapons, thus it balances out.
tbh all very silly ideas the only changes that need to happen to lasers is pg for small beams lowered and the geddon nerfed a little without nerfing everything else.
(sorry for any spelling errors, repeats of other posts, etc i'm tired)
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Oberon Oblique
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Posted - 2005.09.15 21:59:00 -
[29]
I dont agree at all with the OP.
Lasers doing only EM and Thermal is the big minus you neglect to take into account.
Leave lasers alone. Give the caldari their rail boat and call it a draw.
-The mind is strong and the flesh is weak, but oh the flesh... |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.09.16 00:23:00 -
[30]
1) Only em and thermal damage
2) Only EM damage at long range
3) Ooh, lots of low slots means - almost no mid slots
4) Extremely range sensetive
Basically, you are pretty clueless OP
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