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Steve Spooner
Mordu's Military Industrial Command Circle-Of-Two
19
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Posted - 2013.04.13 04:22:00 -
[1] - Quote
They both come from the respective faction equivalent escalation and yet the Pith modules are worth a fraction of the Gist variation and offers sub-par performance, so much so that even a Gist C is better than a Pith X. Why is that? |

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1143
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Posted - 2013.04.13 04:31:00 -
[2] - Quote
Gist are more cap efficient. When looking at XL boosters, that's important. Pith are higher boost. When looking at, say, small and medium boosters, that's more important. Which is why Pithum A-type boosters (and Pithi A-types) are considerably more expensive than their Gist counterparts. |

Steve Spooner
Mordu's Military Industrial Command Circle-Of-Two
19
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Posted - 2013.04.13 04:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
I am aware of this and I am asking why was it created this way? Double cap cost for an extra ~200 in shield repairs hardly seems effective in comparison. |

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1144
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Posted - 2013.04.13 05:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Steve Spooner wrote:I am aware of this and I am asking why was it created this way? Double cap cost for an extra ~200 in shield repairs hardly seems effective in comparison.
Well, it's the pattern of all the Gist/Pith boosters all the way up and down. Pith is always better for burst tank, Gist is always better for sustained tank. So depending on what you're looking for, one might be better than another.
Like I said, this pattern means that Gist looks better on the larger boosters while Pith looks better for smaller ones. They're all useful under the right circumstances of course. So, hey, variety. At least there's a difference between them, unlike Corpus and Centus. |

Fronkfurter McSheebleton
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
190
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Posted - 2013.04.13 05:31:00 -
[5] - Quote
I would imagine that someone was following a formula, and not looking at how balanced the end result would be. thhief ghabmoef |

Dyphorus
VC Academy
0
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Posted - 2013.04.13 05:35:00 -
[6] - Quote
You'd rather they were exactly the same, what would be the point of that?
Like every thing else in eve. Tiers of performance. Everything has a bonus, and a draw back. |

Steve Spooner
Mordu's Military Industrial Command Circle-Of-Two
20
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Posted - 2013.04.13 08:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
I should clarify; why does a Gist A sell for 900 mill and drops from Angels rally point while the Pith A sells for 175 mill and drops from a Guristas rally point. Same slot and fitting, swap missiles for lasers, kinetic for EM and they're the same thing, except one is worth 6 times more because it is that much better than the other via double capacitor need for an extra 160 shields. |

Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1623
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Posted - 2013.04.13 08:49:00 -
[8] - Quote
Theyre not better, theyre different. |

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
762
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Posted - 2013.04.13 08:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Theyre not better, theyre different.
This. |

Steve Spooner
Mordu's Military Industrial Command Circle-Of-Two
20
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Posted - 2013.04.13 08:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
800 mill different? Like the difference between a Vindicator and a Federation Megathron? |
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
136
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Posted - 2013.04.13 09:11:00 -
[11] - Quote
The key difference is that 99% of the market for high-end faction shield boosters is carebears, and most carebearing demands long-term cap stability but doesn't need absolute maximum tank. The reason to invest in high-end tank isn't to survive a level 4 mission (which you can do with T2 modules on a T1 battleship), it's to improve your cap efficiency so you can replace cap modules with more damage. So pith stuff doesn't help much, while gist stuff helps a ton.
If a meaningful number of pvp players could afford to fit faction boosters then you'd probably see more parity between the two, since the pith ones are ideal for pvp. |

Seraph Castillon
Justified Chaos
48
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Posted - 2013.04.13 09:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
Merin Ryskin wrote:If a meaningful number of pvp players could afford to fit faction boosters then you'd probably see more parity between the two, since the pith ones are ideal for pvp (unless you're using an ASB instead).
Well, no. If the price dropped enough for the module to become cost-effective for PvP purposes then players would fit them to their PvP ships. |

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
762
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Posted - 2013.04.13 11:27:00 -
[13] - Quote
Pfft. Tank goes in the high slots! |

Angelique Duchemin
Serenity Prime Kraken.
434
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Posted - 2013.04.13 11:34:00 -
[14] - Quote
There's just higher demand for one really. We miss you Saede. |

Postitute
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
20
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Posted - 2013.04.13 12:58:00 -
[15] - Quote
Perma-tanking - that's the difference. The lower cap usage of the Gist boosters allows cearbears to turn the booster on and leave it on during missions - no need to worry about pulsing.
Perma-tanking in lvl 4 missions has a huge appeal to a large population of mission runners out there and the gist boosters are one of the only ways you can get there. The T2 and Pith boosters will use a lot more cap than the ship can naturally produce if their left on all the time. Since people want to use the minimum number of cap-increasing mods on their ships (as was Zhila saying), they go with the booster that will produce enough tank for a lvl 4 mission, and not burn out the capacitor. |

Storm Novah
Mostly Harmless Mining Corp
7
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Posted - 2013.04.13 14:36:00 -
[16] - Quote
Steve Spooner wrote:800 mill different? Like the difference between a Vindicator and a Federation Megathron? Its economics 101... supply and demand. Many people prefer cap stable perma-run tanks. For that reason something that saves you cap is of extremely high value and most people will either pay the price or fit a different ship. |

Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
139
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Posted - 2013.04.13 15:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
The uninformed carebears absolutely cream themselves when they achieve cap-stable tanks which is the main reason for the Gist boosters being so obscenely expensive. Though anyone with half a brain knows that L4s are so easy you just blast everything away with high dps and run a burst tank. I actually never bought a Gist booster, I usually run CN/DG boosters cause they give more burst tank and lower fittings, Pith C is as high as I'll go for L4s. |

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1146
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Posted - 2013.04.13 16:41:00 -
[18] - Quote
Steve Spooner wrote:I should clarify; why does a Gist A sell for 900 mill and drops from Angels rally point while the Pith A sells for 175 mill and drops from a Guristas rally point. Same slot and fitting, swap missiles for lasers, kinetic for EM and they're the same thing, except one is worth 6 times more because it is that much better than the other via double capacitor need for an extra 160 shields.
They're actually not the same on fitting; check that again. In fact, part of the reason the Pith gets knocked on price is that, like all Pith mods, it's hard on CPU.
But the main reason is that people -- lots of people, many of whom would never venture out of high sec and don't care at all about where mods come from other than "Jita, right?" -- want to permatank their CNRs or whatever. Not a **** is given that they come from nearly identical sites. |

Katsami
Sancta Terra
18
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Posted - 2013.04.13 20:46:00 -
[19] - Quote
Perma-tanking setups are simply isk/hour inefficient because the mods required will neuter your ability to fit damage rigs, tracking comps., etc. Gist are literally an afk mod. |

Kasutra
Tailor Company Hashashin Cartel
164
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Posted - 2013.04.13 21:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
Due to the number of mentions of Gist boosters being for uninformed carebear hisec noobs trying to permatank, I'd like to point out that going for cap-efficient modules doesn't necessarily mean you're going for a slot-inefficient permatank. It might mean you're trying to get away with fewer cap mods (even down to none) without dropping below minimum acceptable tank. |
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
956
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Posted - 2013.04.13 22:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Gist medium is cheaper than pith medium, while sharing the exact same balance as large and xl. Price = supply and demand.
170 mil XL Pith A type + cap booster = all the tank you'll ever need. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |

Steve Spooner
Mordu's Military Industrial Command Circle-Of-Two
23
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Posted - 2013.04.13 23:11:00 -
[22] - Quote
I am just peeved that after creaming myself getting a Pith A drop the realization that it is worthless compared to Gist A, which is of the same difficulty in terms of procurement. Q.Q |

Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
8656
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Posted - 2013.04.13 23:20:00 -
[23] - Quote
Steve Spooner wrote:I should clarify; why does a Gist A sell for 900 mill and drops from Angels rally point while the Pith A sells for 175 mill and drops from a Guristas rally point. Same slot and fitting, swap missiles for lasers, kinetic for EM and they're the same thing, except one is worth 6 times more because it is that much better than the other via double capacitor need for an extra 160 shields.
Players set the price, not CCP.
From my point of view: Gist Large/XL are for the lazy; Pith are for those who are willing to do a bit of micro managing in order to save hundreds of millions of ISK Please vote for me for CSM8-áhere
My recommended voting list |

sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
956
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Posted - 2013.04.13 23:21:00 -
[24] - Quote
Steve Spooner wrote:I am just peeved that after creaming myself getting a Pith A drop the realization that it is worthless compared to Gist A, which is of the same difficulty in terms of procurement. Q.Q
So you got the large. The guy that got the medium get more isk. Whenever you have 2 things, one of them is going to cost more/less than the other. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |

Katsami
Sancta Terra
18
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Posted - 2013.04.14 01:58:00 -
[25] - Quote
Kasutra wrote:Due to the number of mentions of Gist boosters being for uninformed carebear hisec noobs trying to permatank, I'd like to point out that going for cap-efficient modules doesn't necessarily mean you're going for a slot-inefficient permatank. It might mean you're trying to get away with fewer cap mods (even down to none) without dropping below minimum acceptable tank.
The ideal is to not use cap mods at all and instead roll with heavier injecting boosters [Pith] for burst tanking. |

Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
141
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Posted - 2013.04.14 03:01:00 -
[26] - Quote
Katsami wrote:Kasutra wrote:Due to the number of mentions of Gist boosters being for uninformed carebear hisec noobs trying to permatank, I'd like to point out that going for cap-efficient modules doesn't necessarily mean you're going for a slot-inefficient permatank. It might mean you're trying to get away with fewer cap mods (even down to none) without dropping below minimum acceptable tank. The ideal is to not use cap mods at all and instead roll with heavier injecting boosters [Pith] for burst tanking. L4s aren't anywhere close to scary enough to require a stable tank. Gist types are expensive crutches that don't increase your hourly income.
This. Sure its more efficient, but Pith + heavy cap booster is all you'll ever need, and the small amount of extra performance you get from running a Gist with no cap mods and 1 extra damage application midslot is rarely worth the huge price increase as then you'll have to do thousands of l4s just to breakeven. |

Kasutra
Tailor Company Hashashin Cartel
165
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Posted - 2013.04.14 12:45:00 -
[27] - Quote
Katsami wrote:Kasutra wrote:Due to the number of mentions of Gist boosters being for uninformed carebear hisec noobs trying to permatank, I'd like to point out that going for cap-efficient modules doesn't necessarily mean you're going for a slot-inefficient permatank. It might mean you're trying to get away with fewer cap mods (even down to none) without dropping below minimum acceptable tank. The ideal is to not use cap mods at all and instead roll with heavier injecting boosters [Pith] for burst tanking. L4s aren't anywhere close to scary enough to require a stable tank. Gist types are expensive crutches that don't increase your hourly income. We're trying to reach the same optimal conclusion here, the one of getting away without cap mods, but you still seem to think Gist boosters mean stable tanking.
Gist boosters being cap efficient means you get more shield HP out of the cap you had at the start of the mission, which means you're more likely to not need cap mods. So if you do not need the increased burst tank the Pith offers (it's not like a full-running Gist booster is a slouch), a Gist is more likely to get you through the mission without fitting additional cap mods.
Dato Koppla wrote:This. Sure its more efficient, but Pith + heavy cap booster is all you'll ever need, and the small amount of extra performance you get from running a Gist with no cap mods and 1 extra damage application midslot is rarely worth the huge price increase as then you'll have to do thousands of l4s just to breakeven. But you do agree, then, that there is a niche for Gist boosters among heavy mission runners other than permatanking? |

Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
142
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 13:06:00 -
[28] - Quote
Kasutra wrote:Dato Koppla wrote:This. Sure its more efficient, but Pith + heavy cap booster is all you'll ever need, and the small amount of extra performance you get from running a Gist with no cap mods and 1 extra damage application midslot is rarely worth the huge price increase as then you'll have to do thousands of l4s just to breakeven. But you do agree, then, that there is a niche for Gist boosters among heavy mission runners other than permatanking?
Yes, if the niche is doubling the price of your ship for 1 extra mid that won't even reduce your mission completion time by a minute but instead make you earn nothing your first 30 missions.
However I do confess that some ships like the Golem will benefit alot by having an additional mid, but this is extremely niche and frankly the Golem isn't that good a mission number because of lack of range, volley counting and tp juggle issues.
What I'm getting is that yes, there is a niche for Gist boosters, but it is not that niche that is the reason for the high price on Gist boosters, it's the permatankers. |

Kasutra
Tailor Company Hashashin Cartel
165
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 13:16:00 -
[29] - Quote
Dato Koppla wrote:Yes, if the niche is doubling the price of your ship for 1 extra mid that won't even reduce your mission completion time by a minute but instead make you earn nothing your first 30 missions.
However I do confess that some ships like the Golem will benefit alot by having an additional mid, but this is extremely niche and frankly the Golem isn't that good a mission number because of lack of range, volley counting and tp juggle issues.
What I'm getting is that yes, there is a niche for Gist boosters, but it is not that niche that is the reason for the high price on Gist boosters, it's the permatankers. I can accept that. |

Dato Koppla
Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives
142
|
Posted - 2013.04.14 15:03:00 -
[30] - Quote
Kasutra wrote:Dato Koppla wrote:Yes, if the niche is doubling the price of your ship for 1 extra mid that won't even reduce your mission completion time by a minute but instead make you earn nothing your first 30 missions.
However I do confess that some ships like the Golem will benefit alot by having an additional mid, but this is extremely niche and frankly the Golem isn't that good a mission number because of lack of range, volley counting and tp juggle issues.
What I'm getting is that yes, there is a niche for Gist boosters, but it is not that niche that is the reason for the high price on Gist boosters, it's the permatankers. I can accept that.
That's fair, you had a point that there is a niche for them. On a sidenote, deadspace shield boosters in general are too good, in comparison deadspace armor reppers are far behind. |
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