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Meehan
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Posted - 2005.09.19 07:42:00 -
[1]
Okay, it should be noted that I don't mind the escrow scams per se, but it's getting a tad annoying that out of 15 Apocs on escrow fourteen are assorted singular basic mods while the only real Apoc was the one for 245M.
How to clean escrow? Simple; add a broker's fee of a flat 1%, just like on the market. Escrow has several advantages warranting this. First; it's virtually gratis compared to the market to place orders. Also, they are visible for an infinite amount of jumps. Thirdly; they allow for bulk packages. The only drawback is that of course the order fades away with time as new orders bump them out of visibility.
A broker's fee of 1% would kill off all pieces of Tritanium for 125M ISK, making real orders last longer. It would also encourage people to go back to the old way of direct trade; something which in my opinion was something of a social thing.
Thank you for listening 
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Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.09.19 07:54:00 -
[2]
Nice idea.
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Phasics
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Posted - 2005.09.19 07:57:00 -
[3]
acutally simplest way to fix escrow is to remove the ability for people to write ina description.
and just have the description to default to a pop out menu that list every single item in the escrow as you scroll over with mouse.
no more naming = no more scamming
people will still try sell a light missle for 100mil but it will say Light missle indescription so its easy to spot
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CelticKnight
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Posted - 2005.09.19 09:00:00 -
[4]
like.... uber/super/hyper KOS anything BLAH BLAH.. you look it and its an ibis...
Cant we just get an Ibis weapon pod and beat whoever posts these with it untill they stop?! PLEASE?!!
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Masu'di
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Posted - 2005.09.19 09:11:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Phasics
acutally simplest way to fix escrow is to remove the ability for people to write ina description.
and just have the description to default to a pop out menu that list every single item in the escrow as you scroll over with mouse.
no more naming = no more scamming
people will still try sell a light missle for 100mil but it will say Light missle indescription so its easy to spot
ok so what do you do for multiple items?
or perhaps you are escrowing something for a friend of corp, and want to explain. e.g. "these are the Curse bookmarks you were asking for"
bringing Es and Whizz to a station near you
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Jin Entres
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Posted - 2005.09.19 09:33:00 -
[6]
You wouldn't see many T2 BPOs being sold through the escrow. Or faction battleships and other expensive toys.
How about just a new tab? "Available Escrow Scams" 
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.09.19 09:37:00 -
[7]
How about just a blacklist? 
--
Proud member of the [23].
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Thomasina
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Posted - 2005.09.19 10:43:00 -
[8]
Regardless of the scam spam, I think there should be a charge for selling market items through Escrow, as the current system mostly bypasses the sales tax and broker fee skill requirements. Additionally, if Escrow is going to be "fixed", how about also fixing the bug where you can use Escrow from any station, regardless of whether it offers Missions or not?
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.09.19 10:44:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Thomasina
Additionally, if Escrow is going to be "fixed", how about also fixing the bug where you can use Escrow from any station, regardless of whether it offers Missions or not?
That is a good thing.
--
Proud member of the [23].
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infused
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Posted - 2005.09.19 10:45:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Thomasina
Regardless of the scam spam, I think there should be a charge for selling market items through Escrow, as the current system mostly bypasses the sales tax and broker fee skill requirements. Additionally, if Escrow is going to be "fixed", how about also fixing the bug where you can use Escrow from any station, regardless of whether it offers Missions or not?
How?
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.09.19 10:47:00 -
[11]
Originally by: infused
Originally by: Thomasina
Regardless of the scam spam, I think there should be a charge for selling market items through Escrow, as the current system mostly bypasses the sales tax and broker fee skill requirements. Additionally, if Escrow is going to be "fixed", how about also fixing the bug where you can use Escrow from any station, regardless of whether it offers Missions or not?
How?
Right click on anyone, add bounty, escrow tab.
--
Proud member of the [23].
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R4d1o4ct1v3
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Posted - 2005.09.19 11:17:00 -
[12]
There could be a user made Description and a System made Comment saying what it really is.
Also I think adding a 1% fee is a good think... If nothing else it might lower the price of objects as people would want to loose as little as possoble if nobody buys the item.
Makeing a price limit for an object is also a possibility.. For example no higher than 500% of avarage market value. This would keep people from selling a single unit of trit for 500 billions.
I would also support GM's kicking the sh*t out of those who are trying to steal our is 
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01 011 011 0111.. |
Dezzyb0y
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Posted - 2005.09.19 11:31:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Dezzyb0y on 19/09/2005 11:32:03
Originally by: Phasics
acutally simplest way to fix escrow is to remove the ability for people to write ina description.
and just have the description to default to a pop out menu that list every single item in the escrow as you scroll over with mouse.
no more naming = no more scamming
people will still try sell a light missle for 100mil but it will say Light missle indescription so its easy to spot
Omg dont start removing scaming aswell, thats like stupid. Theres a reason nobodys done that yet, BECAUSE IT AINT ******* ILLEGAL STOP WHINING.
[Edit] Your all a bunch of homobears... get over it, start reading stuff, what you need to see is there, if you actually took 30seconds to go (inspect merchandse) it would tell you what it is. Stop being lazy and if you want to whine go cry in a corner somewhere.
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K4rls 1400mm Howitzer Artillery I perfectly strikes Republic Fleet Testing Facilities, wrecking for 1395.9 dama |
SpaceJockey
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Posted - 2005.09.19 11:44:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Dezzyb0y
Edited by: Dezzyb0y on 19/09/2005 11:32:03
Originally by: Phasics
acutally simplest way to fix escrow is to remove the ability for people to write ina description.
and just have the description to default to a pop out menu that list every single item in the escrow as you scroll over with mouse.
no more naming = no more scamming
people will still try sell a light missle for 100mil but it will say Light missle indescription so its easy to spot
Omg dont start removing scaming aswell, thats like stupid. Theres a reason nobodys done that yet, BECAUSE IT AINT ******* ILLEGAL STOP WHINING.
[Edit] Your all a bunch of homobears... get over it, start reading stuff, what you need to see is there, if you actually took 30seconds to go (inspect merchandse) it would tell you what it is. Stop being lazy and if you want to whine go cry in a corner somewhere.
Obviously a scammer then :)
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Meehan
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Posted - 2005.09.19 11:55:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Dezzyb0y
Omg dont start removing scaming aswell, thats like stupid. Theres a reason nobodys done that yet, BECAUSE IT AINT ******* ILLEGAL STOP WHINING.
[Edit] Your all a bunch of homobears... get over it, start reading stuff, what you need to see is there, if you actually took 30seconds to go (inspect merchandse) it would tell you what it is. Stop being lazy and if you want to whine go cry in a corner somewhere.
I'll make you a quiz regarding the original post.
Question #1) Did Meehan specifically say he had nothing against scamming?
1) Yes
X) No
2) I don't know
Question #2) Why was Meehan of the opinion a broker's fee should be implemented?
1) Because he is in strong favour of ISK-sinks
X) Because he feels market characters should be penalized for a no-risk business
2) Because he was getting annoyed with all bogus offers taking up space
Question #3) If someone says that 14 out of 15 offers are bogus; does this imply that:
1) The poster has obviously bought all of the offers to later realize 14 out of 15 were fake
X) The poster already knows how to view contents before buying
2) The poster was obviously tipped off by some guy in local
Question #4) Resorting to calling people *** is a clear sign of:
1) Being really, really macho
X) Being white-trash and/or 12
2) Being eloquently witty
Now for the correct answers:
1, 2, X, X
For three correct answers:
Congratulations, you know how to read. Quit doing quizzes and start reading Melville or maybe even Tolstoy.
For two correct answers:
Congratulations, you're a lucky individual and can sometimes pass yourself off as an intelligent being. Don't jinx it though, go buy yourself a lottery ticket right away.
For one correct answer:
Dude, you're probably having a bad day. Get a cup of coffee and come back later to actually post something constructive and on-topic.
For zero correct answers:
You're most likely a Gallente character with a need to make up for some unknown feature of your RL self. Start writing in caps and join a pirate corp and no one will be a wiser about your true you.
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Knightwind
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Posted - 2005.09.19 12:06:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Knightwind on 19/09/2005 12:07:26
How about if your caught by CCP having placed a scam on escrow then you will get fined the amount of the escrow.
E.G. You place a Merlin on escrow and say its a Harpy and your charging 20 mil then you get a 20 mil fine and the item confiscated and thus recycled back into the ethos. If you aint got 20 mil then goods to that amount should be taken via the recycling of your most expensive ship into minerals and the correct amount of minerals then confiscated.
That should put the scum off.
"Today is a good day to die"
Knightwinds Eve Journal
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Meehan
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Posted - 2005.09.19 12:10:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Knightwind
Edited by: Knightwind on 19/09/2005 12:07:26
How about if your caught by CCP having placed a scam on escrow then you will get fined the amount of the escrow.
E.G. You place a Merlin on escrow and say its a Harpy and your charging 20 mil then you get a 20 mil fine and the item confiscated and thus recycled back into the ethos. If you aint got 20 mil then goods to that amount should be taken via the recycling of your most expensive ship into minerals and the correct amount of minerals then confiscated.
That should put the scum off.
That would be highly impractical, seeing how it would require a paid workforce to maintain.
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Celes Tial
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Posted - 2005.09.19 12:16:00 -
[18]
I disagree. Yes, Escrow is global, but only for A FEW HOURS. After a day, your Escrow isnt even on the regional overview anymore. This means you have to cancel and renew it every day... with a 1% of the sales price fee, it would start to hurt your wallet very much.
Escrow works fine the way it is, scams are detected easily enough. I'd rather see a search function added.
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Meehan
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Posted - 2005.09.19 12:20:00 -
[19]
To be honest, I think (can't really have proof for this) that if all bogus escrows were taken off the system we'd see a great increase in the time a real offer would be up. As it is now people throw all kind of junk up there, just because there is no real effort or investment to it. Adding a broker's fee would probably remove much of the real offers there as well. No use placing an implant on escrow if you have to pay just as much as you do on the normal market...
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Misses Gap
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Posted - 2005.09.19 12:25:00 -
[20]
Easiest way to solve this is to ONLY allow characters that are older than 3 months or have say 2 M in skillpoints enter items in escrow.
Alternatively there could be an "escrow" skill to be trained up so using alts for it will hurt more.
..just some thoughts,
Gap
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Par'Gellen
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Posted - 2005.09.19 12:37:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Phasics
acutally simplest way to fix escrow is to remove the ability for people to write ina description.
and just have the description to default to a pop out menu that list every single item in the escrow as you scroll over with mouse.
no more naming = no more scamming
people will still try sell a light missle for 100mil but it will say Light missle indescription so its easy to spot
I like this idea too mainly because a lot of people think they are clever by putting a bunch of spaces or goofy characters at the beginning of their descriptions so that their item gets listed at the top. What these poor retarded souls don't realize is most people sort it by PRICE and if they name their entry something stupid it will never be seen. Trust me I'm not going to sit there and examine every stupid entry to see if it's what I'm looking for.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.09.19 12:59:00 -
[22]
As a tie-in to the server-imposed description, what I'd like to see is a limit on the number of escrows you can have *displayed* at any one time.
For instance, if someone wants to put 100 identical apocalypse bpc's on escrow at once, that's all well and good and should be encouraged. But nobody needs to SEE all 100 of them; one is enough. Some sort of system that only lists the one out of those 100 with the least time remaining; and if/when it's bought, throws in the next one, and so on until they're all sold.
You might argue that the maximum number viewable at once should be five, or three, or something more than one; I'd accept that, but nobody ever buys 100 Apoc bpc's at a time, surely?. It'd be cheaper to get your own original, if you produce on that scale.
Probably unworkable/uncodable though. Shame. 
Celt Corp - members of ISS |
Kylania
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Posted - 2005.09.19 14:06:00 -
[23]
Great ideas! Here's my mix of ideas to help:
1. 1% fee. This will prevent most scams but also allow you to still put up items for friends at 0.00 ISK for "free" to transfer items.
2. Stack BPCs. Got 200 Apoc BPCs, you get 1 listing. People can buy 1, or however many at a time. I'd even take it furthur and have sections in Escrow for BPCs, where you click on Apoc say, and see all the things for sale there. Just something to seperate out the stupid flood of these things.
3. Make the player description thing appear as a [r] tool tip (like in the Wallet) and the name of the escrow come from the actual item(s) in the escrow. Perhaps allow you to indicate which item to list first in the case of a fully loaded ship escrow or something.
4. Region drop down. Implementing #2 might actually help somewhat with this, but allow the ability to search other/all regions. That way, if some moron comes up and puts 500 BPCs for sale, you can still get use out of the escrow listing without having to travel to each region to get rid of the 500 spam flood.
5. All current scammers ships blow up, no insurance, and they lose all their skill points and ISK on all characters/accounts. :) To help them adjust to life post-stupid. :)
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Lil Miner |
Dahin
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Posted - 2005.09.19 14:07:00 -
[24]
tax can't work, because escrow was mainly created for items that could not be sold on the market (used to be named items too).
Noone can tax t2 bpo's, bpc's and named items, so that can't work.
my BIGGEST question is: why the hell are we allowed to put items that can be sold in the market on escrow?
a) Because we like to avoid the market fees?
b) Because we want to put adverts on escrow descriptions?
c) Because we like to scam?
WHAT is the reason I can sell trit on escrow, now tell me...
Personally, I NEVER even check the escrow list, since it's cluttered to death from scams and sell orders from very persisting people (refreshing every 3 hours).
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MAcheTT3
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Posted - 2005.09.19 14:07:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Meehan
For zero correct answers:
You're most likely a Gallente character with a need to make up for some unknown feature of your RL self. Start writing in caps and join a pirate corp and no one will be a wiser about your true you.
HEY!!!1 AS A GALLENTE CHARACTER AND CEO OF A PIRATE CORPORATION, I RESENT THAT!!!1!11ELEVEN
Personally, I think Escrow scamming is a valid part of the game, and while it does suck to have to wade through a load of fake Escrows, I also wouldn't like to see it removed completely. However, I like the sound of the 'Blacklist' idea...
| .ZOMG RECRUITING NOW | LOOK AT ME! I MAKE SIGS! WOO! | |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.09.19 14:23:00 -
[26]
Simplest solution: look to eBay. Let us rate sellers positively or negatively. If you turned Escrow into EVEBay, it would be easier to tell who to buy from.
Also, give an option to adjust viewing tolerances of the seller ratings to filter out the scammers.
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res0nance
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Posted - 2005.09.19 16:05:00 -
[27]
Easiest method is to add another column - base value.
While the base value wouldn't be correct in many cases, such as with Tech2 items, it would certainly make it VERY clear who's trying to sell 1 tritanium for 100m isk.
Sig Master |
Winterblink
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Posted - 2005.09.19 16:13:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Winterblink on 19/09/2005 16:13:23
Originally by: res0nance
Easiest method is to add another column - base value.
While the base value wouldn't be correct in many cases, such as with Tech2 items, it would certainly make it VERY clear who's trying to sell 1 tritanium for 100m isk.
The system is supposed to calculate this then? What about with multiple items, or prebuilt ships? Or named items, where the base value is not entirely meaningful?
I think that the problem with escrow scamming is not with how the value of items is calculated or displayed, but with the scammers themselves.
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Soren
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Posted - 2005.09.19 17:02:00 -
[29]
Either add the ability to rate people like winterblink said, or just straight out block them. Just like they can be blocked from chat there should be an escrow block.
_________________________________________________________
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Roshan longshot
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Posted - 2005.09.19 19:50:00 -
[30]
How about useing the "inspect merchandise" option already provided? Seems to work for me....But then again I am an aircraft mechanic, what do I know?
Free-form Professions, ensure no limetations on professions. Be a trader, fighter, industialist, researcher, hunter [i]pirate[/i] or mixture of them all.
[i]As read from the original box. |
Discorporation
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Posted - 2005.09.19 19:54:00 -
[31]
Search Escrow
Filter Escrow
!!!
[23]
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Bad Harlequin
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Posted - 2005.09.19 20:23:00 -
[32]
Meehan FTW \o/ you ebil slaver you.
thanks for a good laugh and i'm glad no liquids came into contact with any computer components. But it was a near thing.
1% isn't a bad idea. Until that time happens, i recommend everyone start clearing their hangars by putting their craploot in billion-isk escrows visible only by the scammer. It clears some floorspace for a day, or three, or a week, or 3 months while you organize the stuff you actually want to keep, and since there's "nothing illegal" about it as our semiliterate Gallente friend points out, i'm sure the scammers will defend your actions and not cry or whine at all.
I've already notice more and more people putting "INSPECT!" at the end of their real sales as a reminder. This doesn't solve the damn clutter, of course, but is a nice response to the situation, poking the less experienced or careful.
You are in a maze of twisty little asteroids, all alike. |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.09.19 20:57:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Roshan longshot
How about useing the "inspect merchandise" option already provided? Seems to work for me....But then again I am an aircraft mechanic, what do I know?
Apparently not much 
The problem isn't being able to tell which ones are scams; the problem is that even when you know they ARE scams, they still show up in the list, cluttering it, and throwing honest escrows off the bottom so you can't see the ones you're after.
Celt Corp - members of ISS |
Alinys Spelloyal
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Posted - 2005.09.19 21:15:00 -
[34]
.
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Jagaroth
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Posted - 2005.09.19 21:21:00 -
[35]
I don't like the idea of banning anyone less than 2 months old. I picked up a Dread Guristas frigate in an asteroid belt when I was a noob and it dropped a nice little item which made a big (at the time) difference to my bank balance. Also, who's to say that all scammers are noobs?
Anyway, Meehan's idea is pretty simple, presumably straightforward to implement, and it would work...why quibble over this? 
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Trak Cranker
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Posted - 2005.09.19 21:43:00 -
[36]
The first idea was excellent. 1% tax modified by whatever skills you have that counts towards normal market selling.
That does not rule out scamming, but at least makes it a risk/reward scenario.
Marking the sellers is a dead idea, and should have been before it left the keyboards. Almost all the scammers are shortlived alts.
OPs idea is excellent and easy.
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Mercade
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Posted - 2005.09.19 23:42:00 -
[37]
I find it frustrating that not all escrows appear because it seems the list is trunctuated. A prime example is going to a place like Jita and check a system wide escrow to a show all by someone 3 regions away. You'll find tons of escrows hidden by narrowing the search.
This combined with the "Feature" of getting a personal escrow and having to arrive at that destination to actually see it or know you have one unless you were told is very frustrating as well.
PLEASE READ THE BELOW:
Why couldn't escrow simply be a giant classified section that leads to market/contracts (which need to be implemented). Make it cost an amount to make a post and make that cost refresh every downtime with a choice on how many days you want your ad to run.
Then your scammers would have to put up market sales or contracts which the first is impossible to scam on and the latter should be difficult.
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res0nance
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Posted - 2005.09.19 23:50:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Trak Cranker
The first idea was excellent. 1% tax modified by whatever skills you have that counts towards normal market selling.
That does not rule out scamming, but at least makes it a risk/reward scenario.
Marking the sellers is a dead idea, and should have been before it left the keyboards. Almost all the scammers are shortlived alts.
OPs idea is excellent and easy.
So I kill some dude and he drops a faction repairer that I want to sell on escrow for 1b isk. I then have to pay 10m isk (1%) to make it visible for a very short period of time, a maximum of a week, and much less if it gets pushed off by newer escrows.
That's pretty hefty imo.
Sig Master |
Jaabaa Prime
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Posted - 2005.09.20 00:02:00 -
[39]
Originally by: res0nance
Originally by: Trak Cranker
The first idea was excellent. 1% tax modified by whatever skills you have that counts towards normal market selling.
That does not rule out scamming, but at least makes it a risk/reward scenario.
Marking the sellers is a dead idea, and should have been before it left the keyboards. Almost all the scammers are shortlived alts.
OPs idea is excellent and easy.
So I kill some dude and he drops a faction repairer that I want to sell on escrow for 1b isk. I then have to pay 10m isk (1%) to make it visible for a very short period of time, a maximum of a week, and much less if it gets pushed off by newer escrows.
That's pretty hefty imo.
If it doesn't sell then maybe you're asking too much, and even if you do sell it, you'll still be looking at 990 mil in your wallet, although I do understand you point.
I also like the OPs idea, but I would make a slight change to address what res0nance is saying.
The 1% of value disappears from your wallet when it enters escrow as a deposit. If someone claims and pays for your escrow then you get your deposit back. If it expires unclaimed or you cancel the escrow before it expires then you lose the deposit.
This would have 2 effects, firstly scammers would only lose cash *unless* someone gets caught out and secondly escrow prices would be more in line with what people are really prepared to pay for them.
--
Intergalactic Teeth Pullers
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
Albert Einstein |
Scoundrelus
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Posted - 2005.09.20 00:14:00 -
[40]
Im really not getting this scamming thing. I browse escrow constantly. I always inspect and 99% of the time its the genuine thing. Theres the odd person who describes it as "COOL SHIP!" and you inspect and its 1 tritanium (cheap bastard coulndt even put 2 or 3 trit) but thats all. I dont even see why people scam since you would have to be REALLY *****ed out on dope to actually TAKE an item without inspecting first.
Hell when you select to buy the item, whether or not you inspected, you get a popup telling you what your buying. Scams arent the problem, dumb people are.
===============================================
I will punch you with my laser!
-Scoundrelus |
Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.09.20 00:20:00 -
[41]
How about you having to be in a player corporation to use escrow to begin with.
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Tobber Harley
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Posted - 2005.09.20 01:00:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Winterblink
Simplest solution: look to eBay. Let us rate sellers positively or negatively. If you turned Escrow into EVEBay, it would be easier to tell who to buy from.
Also, give an option to adjust viewing tolerances of the seller ratings to filter out the scammers.
I think this is a really good idea, but would surely need some kind of control, like only a limited number of persons from a corp can give a rating.
Otherwise it would be too easy to exploit this for big corps with a lot of 'voting power'...
And PLEASE just add that search/filter function to escrow!
Regards, Tobber...
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Lazarus Tag'lim
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Posted - 2005.09.20 04:33:00 -
[43]
Yeah... point to those who say, "Wahh... just inspect", it's not about that... it's about the clutter. I never minded a 10,000 isk item showing up on market for 10,000,000. Also... to the guy selling a 1b isk named ship... if you've got something worth that much, put it up on the forums for auction, then sell via a direct trade.
One of the things that annoys me is that to look for one item, I must browse to several different places... say a Raven BPC, I may have to look for "Raven BPC...", "-Raven BPC...", "--Raven BPC...", "BPC Raven...", etc.
Here's what I'd like to see... break Escrows up into a few categories, some of them with special rules.
BPC/BPO Tab: Limited to single BPO/BPCs (per escrow), nice neat table that shows base item, Either "BPO" or number of runs, ME, PE, price. It'd be nice if they'd allow us to stack BPCs of identical properties, and let us sell stacks (like the market... put up 1,000,000 trit, and there's one order, you can buy 1 unit, or all).
Unique Item/Ship Tab: Limited to items that can't be sold on the market, one item per escrow. Say a Dread Guristas Ballistic Control Unit, or an assembled and kitted ship. Nice tabs like before... but maybe have item name, then user description, then price. You could forgo the name, if we could search.
Free for all: Same as now.
And I agree with one of the arguments against the 1% broker fee... if you're going to put that in place to equalize it to the market... escrows should last up to 90 days like the market. Also... I'm not sure how the fees work with modifying buy/sell orders... but the same should go with escrows.
Of course... I think search and filter applied to all open escrows would fix most of these complaints... I could just do a search for "Raven" and ("BPC" or "runs"), and I'll see every escrow selling a Raven BPC (hopefully... if you're selling a Raven BPC, and that filter wouldn't find you... you're description is bad).
Lazarus Tag'lim
CEO, GalacTECH Unlimited
Resident Corporation of Southern Deklein |
Par'Gellen
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Posted - 2005.09.20 11:49:00 -
[44]
Why not just fix the freaking market so we can sell whatever we want and have it seen by the entire universe? The whole escrow system is pointless in my opinion when you already have a market system that just needs a little fixing.
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Meehan
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Posted - 2005.09.21 06:11:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Par'Gellen
Why not just fix the freaking market so we can sell whatever we want and have it seen by the entire universe? The whole escrow system is pointless in my opinion when you already have a market system that just needs a little fixing.
Actually, yeah, this I agree with. Escrow has its charms though - it's like a fleamarket where you never know what's going to be offered.
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Derron Bel
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Posted - 2005.09.21 06:47:00 -
[46]
The market is regional for many good reasons, including lag.
Making escrow more like the market is a terrible idea, beause it will encourage more people putting the crappiest stuff on Escrow.
I would far prefer escrow be kept as-is, and specialized BPC and rare-item markets added.
-==-
Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise!
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LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
Fracking Beach
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Posted - 2005.09.21 06:51:00 -
[47]
I like the idea of having a 1% tax imposed on the escrow items. I think this would be the most simplest and effective way to make escrow scam free.
To make this even better, we could use the previously suggested "Escrow" skill idea: Escrow skill would decrease the tax percentage per level - eg. lvl 3 = 1 - 0.3 etc.
The blacklisting/ignoring suggested on this thread would/will not work, because most (if not all) escrow scammers use alts. I'm sure most of them recycle these scam-alts often.
I think majority of EVE players would agree that escrow needs a cleanup. Problem is that the most vocal opponents of this cleanup are here on the forum and I'm sure they have their agendas as to why escrow scamming should _not_ be made difficult...
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Braaage
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Posted - 2005.09.21 08:37:00 -
[48]
I doubt Escrow will be changed any, Contracts will be coming soon and IIRC replaces Escrow.
___________________________________________
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Picture based tutorial site for EVE-Online
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Trak Cranker
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Posted - 2005.09.21 14:32:00 -
[49]
Originally by: res0nance
Originally by: Trak Cranker
The first idea was excellent. 1% tax modified by whatever skills you have that counts towards normal market selling.
That does not rule out scamming, but at least makes it a risk/reward scenario.
Marking the sellers is a dead idea, and should have been before it left the keyboards. Almost all the scammers are shortlived alts.
OPs idea is excellent and easy.
So I kill some dude and he drops a faction repairer that I want to sell on escrow for 1b isk. I then have to pay 10m isk (1%) to make it visible for a very short period of time, a maximum of a week, and much less if it gets pushed off by newer escrows.
That's pretty hefty imo.
Resonance; Thats a somewhat fair objection. Based on the fact that the escrow is limited to seven days.
Otherwise it's just the same as the market works now. Without skills, it will cost you more than 1% to do it there.
So fewer days(the max 7 days is ofc also open for tweaking in that respect) AND cheaper on escrow but wider exposure. Sounds fair to me.
So I still champion the %age fee for selling on escrow. Whether it should then be 1% or something else.
Ok, what I really champion is the development of the market, so everything had to be be sold there(bar p2p ofc). Limited by regions and skills. But able to handle packs of items and players specific orders(Contracts anyone?).
The only thing speaking for the escrows existence aside the market is the possibility to scam and the interregional offering which goes against the whole market idea and market related skills, afaics.
Not saying scamming should go. But it should not be for free.
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Kaaii
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Posted - 2005.09.21 14:44:00 -
[50]
Originally by: res0nance
Originally by: Trak Cranker
The first idea was excellent. 1% tax modified by whatever skills you have that counts towards normal market selling.
That does not rule out scamming, but at least makes it a risk/reward scenario.
Marking the sellers is a dead idea, and should have been before it left the keyboards. Almost all the scammers are shortlived alts.
OPs idea is excellent and easy.
So I kill some dude and he drops a faction repairer that I want to sell on escrow for 1b isk. I then have to pay 10m isk (1%) to make it visible for a very short period of time, a maximum of a week, and much less if it gets pushed off by newer escrows.
That's pretty hefty imo.
Whats hefty is your 1bil asking price....
"..Id rather fall beside 10 lions, then stand with One thousand sheep.."
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php
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Grimwalius d'Antan
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Posted - 2005.09.21 15:23:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Phasics
people will still try sell a light missle for 100mil but it will say Light missle indescription so its easy to spot
This is not the problem, only foolish players falls for scams. The problem is that scams clutter the whole escrow list, making it hard to find one that is a genuine sale.
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Par'Gellen
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Posted - 2005.09.22 02:24:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Par''Gellen on 22/09/2005 02:24:51
Originally by: Derron Bel
The market is regional for many good reasons, including lag.
Trust me there are systems out there that handle far more transactions in 10 minutes than EVE's market sees in a month. Worst case spend a little of that subscription money and give it its own server or even a cluster.
Originally by: Derron Bel
Making escrow more like the market is a terrible idea, beause it will encourage more people putting the crappiest stuff on Escrow.
All the more reason to replace it with an improved market system on which scams are not possible or at least hard to pull off (shuttles for 9,000,000.00 isk).
Originally by: Derron Bel
I would far prefer escrow be kept as-is, and specialized BPC and rare-item markets added.
Just add those items to an improved market and have a one-stop searchable shop for everything that is accessible in space.
It's really a no-brainer when you think about it.
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Magnum III
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Posted - 2005.09.22 04:24:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Magnum III on 22/09/2005 04:25:41
Good idea /signed
But I don't care how it is done realy
These escrow scams are spam and need to be taken care of at any rate.
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Wanoah
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Posted - 2005.09.23 17:57:00 -
[54]
I suspect they won't be making any radical changes to Escrow in the very near future: I'm expecting the functionality of the Escrow system to be more or less completely replaced by the new Formal Contracts system that they've been wanting to introduce since Castor. Maybe when Kali comes out (yes, I know contracts should have been in Exodus) Escrow will just be a bad memory.
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at stars.
(Sig best viewed with Firefox)
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Caeden Nicomachean
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Posted - 2005.09.23 18:10:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Caeden Nicomachean on 23/09/2005 18:10:47
An old topic, with a lot of different solutions.
1. Figure you could tax it, trim down the crud.
2. Or you could add filters, trim down the crud.
3. You could restrict escrow to folks in non-starter corps, trim down the crud.
Here is my take - you want criminals to be able to be criminals, and marks to be able to be marks.
But what we need is a method by which do-gooders can punish/police the scammers. Being evil/good is a choice, and the more of those decisions we give over to game mechanics (sentry guns, etc) the less of a player driven environment this is.
This is why I lean towards the third solution, because then I can sift through the crap for deals and scammers alike.
Scammers like scamming. People should be bitten by being foolish. I like killing scammers.
Lets perpetuate the circle.
*edit - typo
Etc.
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NoNamium
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Posted - 2005.09.23 18:39:00 -
[56]
This debate is pointless. CCP has already stated that the ellusive "contract"-system in Exodus (where? where?) is going to replace the escrow system.
No development will be made to a system that is going to be replaced soon(tm).
- NoNamium
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Caeden Nicomachean
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Posted - 2005.09.23 18:50:00 -
[57]
Originally by: NoNamium
This debate is pointless. CCP has already stated that the ellusive "contract"-system in Exodus (where? where?) is going to replace the escrow system.
No development will be made to a system that is going to be replaced soon(tm).
- NoNamium
The idea is to influence how that not-yet-implemented system works. 
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Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2005.09.23 18:54:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Winterblink
Simplest solution: look to eBay. Let us rate sellers positively or negatively. If you turned Escrow into EVEBay, it would be easier to tell who to buy from.
Also, give an option to adjust viewing tolerances of the seller ratings to filter out the scammers.
Almost a good idea, except for one word... ALTS.
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Allen Deckard
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Posted - 2005.09.23 23:30:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Dezzyb0y
Edited by: Dezzyb0y on 19/09/2005 11:32:03
Originally by: Phasics
acutally simplest way to fix escrow is to remove the ability for people to write ina description.
and just have the description to default to a pop out menu that list every single item in the escrow as you scroll over with mouse.
no more naming = no more scamming
people will still try sell a light missle for 100mil but it will say Light missle indescription so its easy to spot
Omg dont start removing scaming aswell, thats like stupid. Theres a reason nobodys done that yet, BECAUSE IT AINT ******* ILLEGAL STOP WHINING.
[Edit] Your all a bunch of homobears... get over it, start reading stuff, what you need to see is there, if you actually took 30seconds to go (inspect merchandse) it would tell you what it is. Stop being lazy and if you want to whine go cry in a corner somewhere.
Ok obviously your a scamer but to try and justify something there are only "x" amount of escrows allowed to show up on escrow. The million and one scams are droping off legit escrows making the system exploited and interfering with my gaming enjoyment.
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Jemba'k Ko'cha
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Posted - 2005.09.23 23:47:00 -
[60]
simply adding in a search function and a filter function, as suggsested by someone else would help considerably. also allowing people to block users' escrows from the list would help. If one person gets more than say, 100 people blocking them, then CCP look at the items on offer and if its a blatent scam then the account gets banned as do any others that link with it (same email addy, same IP etc).
for some reason CCP dont seem to believe in search functions though. There are some in game wich are really handy, but on the bleedin forum and in escrow there are none where they are needed. at the end of the day if i know what i am looking for i should be able to filter out EVERYTHING else and only see those items that i searched for.
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Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.09.23 23:50:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Jemba'k Ko'cha
If one person gets more than say, 100 people blocking them, then CCP look at the items on offer and if its a blatent scam then the account gets banned as do any others that link with it (same email addy, same IP etc).
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
You're *supposed* to be able to scam people. EVE is about getting what you want, by any means necessary. Ban this, and you may as well start banning people for killing other people in 0.0 space.
What's annoying is not that we can be scammed (well duh, inspect merchandise) .... but that the huge numbers of repeated escrows (which in most cases are scams, although people selling 25 of the same bpc are adding to the problem) is knocking legit. escrows off the visible list.
Celt Corp - members of ISS |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.09.24 00:05:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Meehan
To be honest, I think (can't really have proof for this) that if all bogus escrows were taken off the system we'd see a great increase in the time a real offer would be up. As it is now people throw all kind of junk up there, just because there is no real effort or investment to it. Adding a broker's fee would probably remove much of the real offers there as well. No use placing an implant on escrow if you have to pay just as much as you do on the normal market...
No, we wouldn't, because it's bugged. Fix the bug, and we can talk. (ps, I'm for being able to easily block seeing escrow from ppl. NOT another sort of fee.)
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.09.24 00:07:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus
How about you having to be in a player corporation to use escrow to begin with.
PLACE escrows, maybe. You should be able to view and claim from NPC/newbcorp
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.09.24 00:08:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Par'Gellen
Why not just fix the freaking market so we can sell whatever we want and have it seen by the entire universe? The whole escrow system is pointless in my opinion when you already have a market system that just needs a little fixing.
If by "fix" you mean "give us unlimited orders back", SURE.
Otherwise, that ain't viable.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Orb Lati
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Posted - 2005.09.24 00:32:00 -
[65]
I think the 1% brokers fee would ebe a bad idea for the following reason.
Currently Escrow is the only way you can limite whom you sell material to. This is very important for the logistcal side of an allaince which may have dedicated players brining up material from empire into their 0.0 regions and usining excrow the distribute/sell that matieral on to fellow allaince members.
Most logistics personal will be doing this with very little (or none) margin on these products and they will be placing multiple entries for thier organzation.
A 1% brokers fee would in effect kill such worth while work being carried out.
"We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible"
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Chadawahee
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Posted - 2005.09.24 00:50:00 -
[66]
heres my opinion, IF there where two escrows, one just like the one now and one where you would not be able to set your own description for the item (eg limited to one item, description is the one from the eve database itself), then i would only look at the second one from now on.
oh, and i also think 100mil + scams are never succesfull, thus i also think only noob-eve-players are being scammed.
Escrow is vital for the trade of faction loot and other rare stuff. thers not many buyers for the real rare so it must be universal.
i dont think the current escrow is a real problem, but yeah, it can be annoying to browse through piles of fakes in order to get to the machariel or phantasm bpc you want
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Megadon
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Posted - 2005.09.24 00:56:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Megadon on 24/09/2005 00:57:50
#1 - 1 % escrow fee gets my vote
#2 - Option to block user's listing so i don't have to look at the same scumbags scams over and over.
#3 - Implement an E-Bay like system of seller ratings. This would be a good thing anyway and i personally think as a buyer and seller it would benefit everyone.
#4 - Allow descriptions. I don't see how you could list BPC's without them and i buy and sell them often off escrow. There are other things such as bookmarks etc that need descriptions.
The ultimate point of #3 is that after you get a rating of -10, you are blacklisted and cannot list on escrow. The points would be cumulative and points would decay at say the rate of 1 point per month, so that it would be self-policing. That way, even if someone is blacklisted and not able to post escrow, after a period of time, they could come back and screw the the fekking liberals over that want scamming allowed.
I actually use escrow often and the clutter is getting out of hand and if scammers should be allowed, then some way to police them should be allowed as well.
[[Originally by: Mangus Thermopyle
I thought EVE would require dedication and long term planning. I could never dream that the third ship I piloted would be the end of the line.]]
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Caeden Nicomachean
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Posted - 2005.09.24 01:14:00 -
[68]
Just my opinion, but a ratings system seems awfully tough to manage and set up as compared to some other solutions - and I know my wish list is long enough that the time investment for CCP is the top issue. I make around 70% of my income from escrow (bpcs, trades) - so its not a small part of eve for me.
I also dislike npc taxes, they seem kinda silly to me. Not as a mechanic, just as an idea. If players had control of the amassed capital in some way it changes completely, but that is an entirely different can of worms.
I'd prefer the requirement to utilize escrow require the player to reside in a player corporation. The idea being that if this arm of the market is entirely player driven, then scammers should be opening their corp up to retribution from players.
I've not thought out how to avoid people just plopping their noob scammer alt into a noob scammer corp, and yes I realize it cuts off starter corpers from escrow.
I think the ultimate goal should be to ensure escrow remains an organic market, to contrast to the clinical market system we already have. There is only so much uniqueness to yet another Ebay. A black market, not a carebear patch.
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Yslath
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Posted - 2005.09.24 02:25:00 -
[69]
What needs to be done is to impliment the rating system, only we couldn't see the rating. If it's a scammer, we would all quietly mark him(or her) as being one, lowering his score. When the sugested -10 is reached for any one escrow, the alt can be banned from being deleted for a month or something, starting after the last negative mark on his record. This in conjunction with the ability to filter out players is all we need.
Catagorizing escrows by type would be wonderful too.
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