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Barakkus
823
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 19:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
Janos Saal wrote:Salx wrote:Why do most Minatar ships have Solar Panels on them? Are they powered by the sun or something? Assuming they are solar panels, what the **** else would they be sued for you imbecile?
Are you like a lawyer or something? |

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
30
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Posted - 2011.10.17 20:13:00 -
[32] - Quote
Now i don't recall the exact details, but according to lore those panels actually are supposed to capture some particles from space, then accelerate them through the engines in order to propel the ships. I should had never left X3: Reunion |

Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
180
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 20:20:00 -
[33] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Sarmatiko wrote:This is not solar panels. This is cooling radiators for their old nuclear reactors. That wouldn't work very well... can't transfer heat that well into a vacuum. That's why they're so big and frilly GÇö more surface to radiate from.
there are zero particles in a vacuum, hence zero ways to radiate heat. space does have some particles in it, but they are so few and far between that it would be meaningless. heat is vibrating particles. they aren't part of a radiator system. they are either solar panels, heat *gatherers* (absorbing sunlight), or just there for the same reason everything in EVE looks the way it does - because an artist thought they looked cool. |

Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
180
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 20:23:00 -
[34] - Quote
Zofe Stormcaller wrote:You should be able to radiate heat though space fine. That's how the heat from the sun gets to the planet from the sun.
actually, it isn't heat in space. it is electromagnetic radiation (light) agitating particles in the atmosphere / surface / you (vibrating particles). |

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
62
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Posted - 2011.10.17 20:32:00 -
[35] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:...stuff... You need to reveal this useful secret to the aerospace industry as they've been building spacecraft with them useless radiators all this time. That thar's some serious weight saving idea you got. |

Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
180
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 20:38:00 -
[36] - Quote
Razin wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:...stuff... You need to reveal this useful secret to the aerospace industry as they've been building spacecraft with them useless radiators all this time. That thar's some serious weight saving idea you got.
modern spacesuits have cooling systems because body heat builds up forever in a vacuum. |

Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
62
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 20:41:00 -
[37] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Razin wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:...stuff... You need to reveal this useful secret to the aerospace industry as they've been building spacecraft with them useless radiators all this time. That thar's some serious weight saving idea you got. modern spacesuits have cooling systems because body heat builds up forever in a vacuum. Because to have a radiator hanging off your suit (and pointed in the correct direction) would present some serious issues during a typical EVA.
|

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
30
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Posted - 2011.10.17 20:45:00 -
[38] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Tippia wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Sarmatiko wrote:This is not solar panels. This is cooling radiators for their old nuclear reactors. That wouldn't work very well... can't transfer heat that well into a vacuum. That's why they're so big and frilly GÇö more surface to radiate from. there are zero particles in a vacuum, hence zero ways to radiate heat. (...).
  
Radiation doesn't works like that. EVERYTHING radiates energy as long as it's above absolute zero, and the chances to radiate are proportional to temperature. Space radiators are devices designed to transport heat through thermal conductivity and sometimes convection, and then radiate it into space through radiation. I should had never left X3: Reunion |

Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
9
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Posted - 2011.10.17 20:48:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Yeah... how exactly are nuclear reactors cooled again? In space? Through radiation. Indeed.
As an early pre-EvE technology example just take a look at the wingy bits on ISS.
There's 2 types of them, one set is generating energy, the other set is radiating excess heat.
|

Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
30
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 20:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:Razin wrote:Akirei Scytale wrote:...stuff... You need to reveal this useful secret to the aerospace industry as they've been building spacecraft with them useless radiators all this time. That thar's some serious weight saving idea you got. modern spacesuits have cooling systems because body heat builds up forever in a vacuum.
No. They have such systems because heat builds up faster than what it can be radiated. It's a volume vs surface thing: astronaut volume (body) generates heat faster than what the skin/suit surface can radiate it while preventing the astronaut from cooking if exposed to direct sunlight (wihtout insulation, heat would move quickly in both directions... inside too utside, but also outside to inside, and you don't want that under direct sunlight within Earth's orbit).
Otherwise radiation is proficent enough to keep ships uncomfortably cold unless they are warmed up. You could go and ask the crew from Apolllo XIII how fast was heat "bulding up" inside their powerless spaceship in the way back home. I'll give you a clue: without their heating systems, the moisture from their breath ended up freezing on the walls... I should had never left X3: Reunion |

pooper stain
Adventurers Matari Visionary Coalition
4
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Posted - 2011.10.17 20:56:00 -
[41] - Quote
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/2001/ast21mar_1/
YES radiators work in space. We have had them on most space craft since the 60s. |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
629
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 20:59:00 -
[42] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote:there are zero particles in a vacuum, hence zero ways to radiate heat. Now, you know that the whole point of radiating heat is that it doesn't use particles, right (well, beyond photons, which is always a matter of perspective)?
Space has plenty of particles, but not enough to make use of convection or conduction, so radiation is the standard mode of heat transfer out there.
Quote:heat is vibrating particles No. Heat is a form of energy. In matter, it generally manifests in the form vibration GÇö kinetic energy, if you want to simplify it. But that is not the only manifestation it has. Another very very common one is EM radiation. There's a reason why IR cameras pick up heat signaturesGǪ
Quote:they aren't part of a radiator system. GǪexcept that big radiators is how all spacecraft sinceGǪ ohGǪ forever, have dumped their excessive heat. So no, the wingy bits on Minmatar ships could most certainly be radiators. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
629
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 21:18:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:No. They have such systems because heat builds up faster than what it can be radiated. It's a volume vs surface thing: astronaut volume (body) generates heat faster than what the skin/suit surface can radiate it while preventing the astronaut from cooking if exposed to direct sunlight (wihtout insulation, heat would move quickly in both directions... inside too utside, but also outside to inside, and you don't want that under direct sunlight within Earth's orbit). I can't find the link now GÇö it might be on one of those rocket pages I linked earlier, but mehGǪ :effort: GÇö but I recall reading that if you took a skip out out the airlock in earth orbit, you'd achieve a medium body temperature of ~24-¦ from the radiation of body heat and the absorption of solar heat. So it would be nice and balmyGǪ until the whole pressure and lack of air thing sets in (because you can't have any isolation in either direction to get that temperature) and ruins your afternoon. 
Quote:Otherwise radiation is proficent enough to keep ships uncomfortably cold unless they are warmed up. You could go and ask the crew from Apolllo XIII how fast was heat "bulding up" inside their powerless spaceship in the way back home. I'll give you a clue: without their heating systems, the moisture from their breath ended up freezing on the walls... Apollo 13 is a particularly nice example of the design requirements. The reason it cooled down was because it was purposefully designed with a negative heat flow: big honking radiators to dump heat into space, and internal heaters to counteract those radiators, all based on the principle that it's far easier to generate new heat than to get rid of it (since all you have to work with is radiation GÇö the most inefficient of heat transfer mechanisms).
GǪso obviously, when that heater can't be used and the radiators are still dumping heat, you get a less than pleasant situation. It still took nearly 3 days to get to freezing temperatures, though, which tells us something about how slow the process is. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |

David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
72
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Posted - 2011.10.17 21:24:00 -
[44] - Quote
Ingvar Angst wrote:Sarmatiko wrote:This is not solar panels. This is cooling radiators for their old nuclear reactors. That wouldn't work very well... can't transfer heat that well into a vacuum.
space is not a true vacuum........... why do people think space is a true vacuum....
a true vacuum would be devoid of matter... space is full of matter
Definition of a Vacuum |

Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
151
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 21:35:00 -
[45] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:Ingvar Angst wrote:Sarmatiko wrote:This is not solar panels. This is cooling radiators for their old nuclear reactors. That wouldn't work very well... can't transfer heat that well into a vacuum. space is not a true vacuum........... why do people think space is a true vacuum.... a true vacuum would be devoid of matter... space is full of matter Definition of a Vacuum
No one said true vacuum, but certainly devoid of anywheres close to enough matter for effective convection to occur.
Six months in the hole... it changes a man. |

Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
183
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 21:44:00 -
[46] - Quote
has anyone in this thread ever used a thermos?  |

Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
176
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 21:57:00 -
[47] - Quote
i swear i read solar penises Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
71
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 23:10:00 -
[48] - Quote
MinSebsis wrote:The're called "wingy bits"! They've got a proper name, you know. |

Alice Saki
Ducklings
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 00:15:00 -
[49] - Quote
Something to Do with Wizards, I Can't Say more it's not Safe here xD My Null Roams.... Badger MKII :D They all-áHate my Stabby Badger... xD |

Emiko P'eng
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 00:32:00 -
[50] - Quote
Well
The main difference in space is you can only transfer heat to space by Radiant or Mass Transfer means, while on earth with its atmosphere you can use Conduction, Convection, Radiant or Mass Transfer.
Conduction or diffusion You transfer the energy between objects that are touching
Convection You transfer the energy between an object and its surroundings by the fluid movement of another substance (eg. Air, Water)
Radiation You transfer the energy to or from a body by the emission or absorption of electromagnetic radiation
Mass Transfer The transfer of energy from one location to another by physically moving an object containing that energy
The final one has been used in space by telescopes that used Liquid Nitrogen & or Liquid Helium to cool their instruments . In those cases the evaporation of the liquid cooled the instruments, it also means they have a limited lifespan as they fail after they use up all their liquid supply
As an example here is a company the specialises in Satellite cooling:
Thermacore: - Thermal Management Solutions
Finally if the 'sail thingies' are not radiators, then if the current modifications to the Standard Model of the Universe are correct then Dark Matter & Dark Energy could provide the weird particles or energies required for reactor or warp drive to work, in that case the 'sail thingies' would absorb them for the warp drive or reactor! |

Alice Saki
Ducklings
18
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 00:33:00 -
[51] - Quote
And the fun was Killed.... My Null Roams.... Badger MKII :D They all-áHate my Stabby Badger... xD |

Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 02:50:00 -
[52] - Quote
Akirei Scytale wrote: there are zero particles in a vacuum, hence zero ways to radiate heat. space does have some particles in it, but they are so few and far between that it would be meaningless. heat is vibrating particles. they aren't part of a radiator system. they are either solar panels, heat *gatherers* (absorbing sunlight), or just there for the same reason everything in EVE looks the way it does - because an artist thought they looked cool.
Uh...solar wind FTW.
From Wikipedia:
'The solar wind is a stream of charged particles ejected from the upper atmosphere of the Sun.'
And the crew of the space shuttle, on some of its early missions, noted that the shuttle's heat-shield absorbed heat form the sun and expanded, producing an audible 'roaring' noise within the spacecraft.
Besides, if there was no way for heat to radiate in a vacuum, Earth would be a block of ice. |

Tahna Rouspel
BWE Special Forces
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 03:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
I believe a hot surface radiates energy in the form of Infrared. I'm not entirely sure. There's a lot more than the visible light that travels through space. |

Astrid Stjerna
Teraa Matar
24
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 04:00:00 -
[54] - Quote
Emiko P'eng wrote:Finally if the 'sail thingies' are not radiators, then if the current modifications to the Standard Model of the Universe are correct then Dark Matter & Dark Energy could provide the weird particles or energies required for reactor or warp drive to work, in that case the 'sail thingies' would absorb them for the warp drive or reactor!
I was tempted to speculate about tachyon sails, but I realize now that I think about it that there wouldn't be a way to decelerate a spacecraft with a tachyon engine (according to the current hypothesis, tachyons can't travel at sub-light speeds).
Given what we know of New Eden spacecraft, though, we can form a working hypothesis:
A typical frigate-sized spacecraft is powered by a fairly large capacitor-- take the Incursus, for example, with a base capacitor charge of 325 gJ. That's roughly three hundred billion joules (for comparison, a barrel of oil contains about six gigajoules of potential chemical energy when combusted). We know that a portion of the capacitor's charge is expended to propel the ship into warp.
Now, the issue with storing and expending that much energy is the sheer amount of heat it generates; the pilot and crew would probably be roasted alive the minute the ship entered warp, or the core would melt down. We can assume, since we don't wake up in a clone bay after every jump, and the ship comes out of warp intact, that there is some form of coolant employed.
We can reasonably assume that the Caldari, Gallente, and Amarr cycle the coolant through the hull of the spacecraft and back into the engine system. From an engineering standpoint, that makes sense; the exterior hull is exposed to space, which is unbelievably cold. The heat radiates away into space, and the coolant is pumped back into the engine.
Minmatar spacecraft, on the other hand, are little more than a spaceframe and a couple of sticks in most cases. Aside from the Rifter and its up-tier sister ships, there isn't really a lot of hull there to use. Putting the superheated coolant into tanks is just silly (because you're really just shifting the heat around that way, instead of cooling it), and the sheer amount of energy required to pump heated coolant through a maze of pipes all over the hull would make that method very inefficient.
So, based on the above, we can draw the conclusion that the 'wingy bits' on a Minmatar ship are most likely radiating panels; they present a large, flat surface (which gives a lot of space from which heat can bleed off), the cold of space 'leeches' the heat from the coolant, and it's then pumped back into the engine system again.
TL;DR: A wizard did it. Yay wizards! :) |

stoicfaux
287
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 04:28:00 -
[55] - Quote
And here I thought that the sails were just giant rust traps designed to keep the rust away from the main ship hull.
Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
|

Digital Messiah
N7 Corporation
56
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 05:01:00 -
[56] - Quote
Light can travel as a wave or a particle, so long as it is traveling as light infrared or otherwise. It can then leave the radiator entering the dark cold void that is space.
Another explanation could be cold spots being created on a highly conductive material absorbing and dissipating heat at a rapid pace. "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" |

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
76
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 05:26:00 -
[57] - Quote
There is enough matter that if you use FTL for about 1 AU without any particle protection youll burn up from the friction. |

stoicfaux
287
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 05:33:00 -
[58] - Quote
Question: since we can sit a ship near/on/in a star, do we really expect physical radiators to be adequate enough to keep the ship cool?
Might as well just say that we dump excess heat into subspace or that the ship's shields radiate energy/heat.
Tinfoil. It should be at the top of everyone's food pyramid.
|

Akirei Scytale
Test Alliance Please Ignore
185
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 06:38:00 -
[59] - Quote
Astrid Stjerna wrote:
Uh...solar wind FTW.
From Wikipedia:
'The solar wind is a stream of charged particles ejected from the upper atmosphere of the Sun.'
And the crew of the space shuttle, on some of its early missions, noted that the shuttle's heat-shield absorbed heat form the sun and expanded, producing an audible 'roaring' noise within the spacecraft.
Besides, if there was no way for heat to radiate in a vacuum, Earth would be a block of ice.
Uh, did you read what you quoted?
Akirei Scytale wrote: space does have some particles in it, but they are so few and far between that it would be meaningless.
the solar wind is so unbelievably sparse that you'd have to be silly to factor it in here. do you have any idea how large a solar sail needs to be to pull a tiny little mass, like, say, 1kg?
and we are talking about radiators. a radiator will basically not function in a vacuum, simple as. there simply isn't nearly enough matter in space for thermal energy to ever transfer in significant amounts. if you wanted to cool off in space, you would have to use very different methods, such as turning that thermal energy intro electromagnetic radiation.
also, please read what you quoted again. heat is *not* being directly transferred from the sun to space to the earth. it is radiation striking the earth and energizing its particles. the space between the earth and sun is still pretty much 0-¦K.
here, go buy a thermos. put scalding hot food into it, seal it, and let it sit there for a few hours. open it up later. you just witnessed how any object encapsulated in a vacuum (almost encapsulated, in this case) will not cool off. If a "radiator in space" worked, then the thermos would cool off just as quickly as if it were a metal jug. |

Livini Naship
STAHLSTURM ROMANIAN-LEGION
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 06:54:00 -
[60] - Quote
http://www.capcomespace.net/dossiers/espace_US/shuttle/2006-2011/STS120/ISS%20radiator.jpg
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/products/HeatRejectionRadiators/index.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infrared |
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