I don't want to be represented by any of available candidates (and I believe that I'm not the only one) for many reasons: some of them slacked in the past, some represent huge blocs, some just marginal.
But there is no option to let CCP know about low quality of candidates and vote "against all". So I will not vote.

"Representative voice of the community" just can't be truly representative if you don't want to hear all community voices.

Changed your mind?
https://twitter.com/myronik/status/324472024934256640

If I didn't know better, I'd almost think they like us....

Nope I just lied so save Sleipnir.

I don't want to be represented by any of available candidates (and I believe that I'm not the only one) for many reasons: some of them slacked in the past, some represent huge blocs, some just marginal.
But there is no option to let CCP know about low quality of candidates and vote "against all". So I will not vote.

"Representative voice of the community" just can't be truly representative if you don't want to hear all community voices.

What does "marginal" mean? Does it mean "not representing a huge bloc"?

It's a lovely devblog, and if it had been released 3 weeks ago, it would probably have had a very positive effect on the election.

With less than 36 hours left until the polls close.... well, it's a lovely devblog.

first page \o/

Is it too late to throw a few bribes out to the CSM8 candidates?

Better yet how do we get CCP Dolan to throw out a bunch of NULL SEC blocks ballots due to something like hanging chads?

Can't win the election fairly, so you're looking to cheat.

Are you an American? We have a lovely political party you'd fit right in with called the "GOP".

Just one example about CSM 7 (and 6): for past two years UAxDeath posted absolutely nothing relevant about his CSM work not on EVE-O, nor on ru forum where he advertised his "election program". How can we evaluate his work if he never communicated with players?
Yes we seen cool photos and tweets about crazy russian, about how he poisoned CSM with vodka, about Blue Lagoon trip and so on. But do we really need jesters in CSM? And how can we measure real effectiveness of each CSM member without blurry generic devblogs?

This will be an invaluable resource for the future - whenever someone comes with the CSM is useless/does nothing/PR stunt etc. gimmick, it will be possible to bash him over the head with this devblog.

I thought you might be Russian after reading your first reply. I kinda understand your frustration with what you see as no available good candidates, but I think there are some very good people running at least outside of the Russian community.

So I understand how he could have been elected for CSM 6, but don't you think that players should take responsibility for re-electing him to CSM 7?

You are not going to sell your T3 Modular Titan, Capital Mining Ship or T2 production replacement idea to Soundwave or Greyscale no matter how drunk they are.

It's a lovely devblog, and if it had been released 3 weeks ago, it would probably have had a very positive effect on the election.

With less than 36 hours left until the polls close.... well, it's a lovely devblog.

Or your "bring back tracking titans" ideas, for that matter...

... the community has been extraordinarily lucky with the composition of recent CSMs.

For someone who was AWOL most of the year, you're kinda straight-up full of yourself.

Admit it - you miss the days of valiant titan pilots poking their nose outside of a POS shield to fire an AoE DD through a cyno kestrel, don't you?

You should blog some more about how useless CSM 7 has been and back it up with quotes from developers at CCP.

I'm just calling you out for taking credit for **** you didn't do.

Neither Poe nor Seleene are CSM8 candidates, bro.

You should blog some more about how useless CSM 7 has been and back it up with quotes from developers at CCP.

As the CSM is the Voice of the players, don't you think endorsements from players would be more relevant?

This has been CSM7s biggest failing, they forgot who they actually work for.

Can't win the election fairly, so you're looking to cheat.

Are you an American? We have a lovely political party you'd fit right in with called the "GOP".

I'm just calling you out for taking credit for **** you didn't do.

... its all the more critical that we prove our value to as wide a cross-section of the company as possible.

You really DON'T have a clue as to how this all works, do you.

The minute the CSM fails to be of use to CCP is the minute it ceases to exist. The more practical benefit we provide the company, the longer we preserve our ability to operate and serve as the voice of the people. CSM7 has elevated the status of the institution internally by making ourselves too useful to ignore, and its now up to CSM8 to carry that momentum into their term as well.

Especially with a new EP entering the picture at some point in 2013, its all the more critical that we prove our value to as wide a cross-section of the company as possible. Otherwise, new management may decide that an expensive handful of ragey players that can't channel their energy into anything more constructive than ranting on forums or skype isn't worth the effort.

The Scope of the CSM

The purpose of the CSM is to represent society interests to CCP. This requires active engagement with the player community to master EVE issue awareness, understanding, and evaluation in the context of the GÇ£greatest good for the greater player baseGÇ¥. The scope of issues is restricted only to EVE, its ongoing development, and limited meta (out-of-game) issues which have direct relevance to the EVE universe. It is important to keep in mind that the CSM will not have formal powers within CCP, they will have a voice inside CCP.

The minute the CSM fails to be of use to CCP is the minute it ceases to exist.

Your time is up in a week. You don't have to worry about it anymore.

So, what you're saying is, your job is to keep CCP happy ... not listen to player concerns. Your less a voice of the players, and more a voice of CCP.

Gotcha.

Not at all. CCP has its own voice and throwing us into a bunch of meetings all year, interrupting their schedules, and paying money to fly us to iceland would collectively be a colossal waste of time if we weren't bringing a unique player community perspective to the table, that goes against their own natural instincts and helps them to spot problems before they are made manifest on the server.

The fact that we represented the players is made explicitly clear by multiple contributors to the blog, there's really little point in trying this last-dtich effort to sing the "sycophant" song that by now has been thoroughly debunked and left to rot with the rest of your failed slam campaigns.

Can't win the election fairly, so you're looking to cheat.

Are you an American? We have a lovely political party you'd fit right in with called the "GOP".

As to "The fact that we represented the players is made explicitly clear by multiple contributors to the blog", now personally I would be concerned if an employer was singing the praise of a union more than the employees were.

AND YOU GOON ARE ACCUSING ME OF CHEATING: http://i.imgur.com/Vz9SUw8.png

Good thing you have nothing to be concerned about. This is by far the most extensive set of CCP comments we've heard about the CSM all year, and it pales in comparison to the collective feedback provided by the player base. We've enjoyed far, far more compliments from the community that we'll ever receive from CCP - and its THAT feedback we value the most, because you're the reason we put the time and effort in to begin with.

Amazing how hard it is to get transparency from CSM7.

Ok after having done a little bit of looking I am yet to find a blog posted in the last 6 months from non-csm members that have actually praised CSM7s actions except Two Step.

There are a lot of blogs maybe you could point me in the direction of a few as you have been praised so much by the community.

Ok after having done a little bit of looking I am yet to find a blog posted in the last 6 months from non-csm members that have actually praised CSM7s actions except Two Step.

There are a lot of blogs maybe you could point me in the direction of a few as you have been praised so much by the community.

It's really easy, actually - you just haven't been paying attention every other time this has been discussed. No matter how much everyone enjoys sensationalizing the story for political purposes (CSM "activism" sells really well!), the fact remains that the CSM was told, in no uncertain terms, that POS improvements were going to happen in the summer expansion. We'd been in talks with them about the importance of POS improvements since the beginning of our term, and we'd already told them that NOT working on POS's in the summer was unacceptable no matter how you slice it. CCP admitted in the summit that while they weren't going to be doing the full modular POS system, the abysmal current state of POS's had been made clear to them and that they would be addressing it directly. Two step had his constituency to consider, and felt he was doing his responsibility to push the issue regardless of the fact that we'd already obtained the commitment from CCP that we sought.

But did the threadnought change a goddamn thing other than tie up CCP's staff for a couple days trying to calm everyone down out of panic mode? Nope, the outcome was the same. But because it felt good, and was the closest thing to the Jita-shooting spirit we'd seen in CSM6's term, it's going to continue to be put on a pedestal and worshiped as a hero story by those that believe in the "activist" model irregardless of whether it was actually the reason POS improvements made it into Odyssey.

If you think the CSM's job is to counter CCP at every step of the way, you're crazy. If Two step had wanted to go "against the wishes of CCP" he would have had to ask them NOT to work on POS's at all. There are times when CCP acquiesces and gives the CSM what its asking for, and in my opinion these are the least appropriate times to try to strongarm them further. I'd personally much rather reward CCP's cooperation than punish it. Two step meant well, and has been a tireless advocate for the players, and this doesnt reflect poorly on him in the long run.

We simply disagreed at the time on how to best handle the situation, and since than the facts of the story have continued to be heavily politicized by various groups who like to use the threadnought story to make a point.

It wasn't in the minutes, but I spent a lot of time talking to Unifex about this at night. Needless to say, I disagreed with CCP's decision to not move ahead with work on the POS system. I also disagree that only a small group of people would feel the effects of a new POS system. From wormhole residents to Tech 2 producers to nullsec residents, a lot of people interact with POSes. Also, a redesigned POS system would both attract players that were frustrated to the point of giving up with the old POS system as well as new players who cannot use the current POS system because of limitations with roles.

Even ignoring the incorrect statements about who would care about a POS rewrite, I feel that we are owed some work on the POS system. Wormholers have been very patient with CCP during the last couple years while other supposedly higher priority issues have been addressed. During that time, we sat back and continued to pay our subscriptions to CCP, secure in the "promise" that we felt CCP had made at FanFest in 2012 and again at the May/June CSM summit: They were working on a new POS system, there was no reason to fix the many issues with the current one.

That hope has turned out to be a false one. CCP decided that the full modular POS system would require the effort of the whole company for a whole expansion, and they feel the benefits don't justify that much effort. I personally don't agree, but I do feel that if CCP is not going to deliver the full modular POS vision right now, they MUST deliver improvements to the current system. When we were first told about the decision to not deliver modular POSes this summer, I led the CSM in the creation of a list of the needed improvements. The first item on the list, and in my opinion the bare minimum that CCP should deliver, is to have real private ship and item storage at POSes.

The good news is that CCP has not done their planning for the May expansion yet. That planning is happening right now, and CSM is involved in the process. I want you, the players, to be involved as well. I want you to tell CCP that you want POS improvements to be the bare minimum for the next expansion. I want you to tell CCP that you are "a small portion of the community". I've created a thread, please go here and let CCP know that you are also a small portion of the community.

No. You're being lazy, any amateur can sift through a few blogs and come up with any conclusion they way as long as they are selective enough. The fact that you think that praise has to come from a blog to count is ridiculous, and the fact that you think this is a good use of my time right now speaks volumes about how much you care about CSM performance vs seizing another opportunity to troll.

Good day sir, I'm off to pack my bags for Iceland. o7

Do you think feedback only comes in blogs? What about the various podcasts where I have heard good things? What about people mailing the CSM members? In game chat? Bloggers will use anything to generate hits and controversy is usually a good way to do that. What better way to do that then rip into a high profile target like the CSM.

The bias in this post is so obvious. You go out of your way to try and belittle the CSM everywhere on these forums, and this is just another example.

You really haven't listened hard enough. There has been criticism, but in general support.
And the fact that you think the voting system is rigged is enough to make me want to stop talking with you.

As the CSM is the Voice of the players, don't you think endorsements from players would be more relevant?

This has been CSM7s biggest failing, they forgot who they actually work for.

How about a little transparency? Who in CSM7 was for the STV system that CCP wanted and who was actually against it?

Did the CSM actually put up a fight against a system the players as a majority (See voting reform discussions) did not want or did the CSM just do as CCP wanted, not putting up a fight?

Ok so you don't want to answer that one.

How about, if CSM7 was acting as the voice of the players and not the voice of CCP, why did one of your members feel the need to ignore the rest of the CSM and make a threadnaught about POSs, as he felt the CSM were not going to go against the wishes of CCP?

It's really easy, actually - you just haven't been paying attention every other time this has been discussed. No matter how much everyone enjoys sensationalizing the story for political purposes (CSM "activism" sells really well!), the fact remains that the CSM was told, in no uncertain terms, that POS improvements were going to happen in the summer expansion. We'd been in talks with them about the importance of POS improvements since the beginning of our term, and we'd already told them that NOT working on POS's in the summer was unacceptable no matter how you slice it. CCP admitted in the summit that while they weren't going to be doing the full modular POS system, the abysmal current state of POS's had been made clear to them and that they would be addressing it directly. Two step had his constituency to consider, and felt he was doing his responsibility to push the issue regardless of the fact that we'd already obtained the commitment from CCP that we sought.

But did the threadnought change a goddamn thing other than tie up CCP's staff for a couple days trying to calm everyone down out of panic mode? Nope, the outcome was the same. But because it felt good, and was the closest thing to the Jita-shooting spirit we'd seen in CSM6's term, it's going to continue to be put on a pedestal and worshiped as a hero story by those that believe in the "activist" model irregardless of whether it was actually the reason POS improvements made it into Odyssey.

Thank you for clearing those things up.

When I said ignore, I meant going against the wishes of the other CSM members who felt your threadnaught was a bad idea.

I agree STV is a fairer system, but personally feel that increasing voter turn out should have been done before altering the voting system, a thought repeated by a number of people in the voting reform thread.

Interesting to watch you evolve your view point. STV is good now?

Really agree that voter participation is the BIG problem at this point. And am very frustrated with CCP efforts this year, but it actually looks promising for the future. (Or maybe I am just an eternal optimist.)

If they can try to deliver better on these concepts that they attempted this year, and add in client voting, we might just say a CSM that represents the playerbase as much as it representing the voters.

If I didn't know better, I'd almost think they like us....

The wright-STV voting system was designed for the Australian Senatorial elections. Australian elections are compulsory, failure to vote earns you a fine.

STV is good.

Just as a side note I am an Australian (you can find evidence of this all over these forums), and I have never voted (and I'm 24 years old), yet I have never gotten a fine. Maybe I'm just lucky hey.

Everyone agrees that voter turn out needs to increase, but the system needed a change too. The problem is that if we waited to increase the voter turn out, we'd be waiting till the servers go down.

Quoting for posterity.

CCP has never done this much promotion before, now while it needs some fixing up it was a damn site better than ever before. So if they had done that for the next year or 2 and then introduced the drag of an STV, it would have worked out a lot better. The fear is when introducing a more complex voting system with such a low percentage is that we will have a less representative council than we would have with the old system with the extra publicity.

Oh and as to your lack of fines, don't worry, if you are ever cornered by the AEC and put on the voting roles, you will be fined for every time you have failed to vote since the day you turned 18.

So it all comes back to the representative council again, because you don't like null blocs. At the end of the day I've already made my position on that clear. The CSM is representative of the players that voted. Now if people don't like the representation that the CSM provides, they can vote for new representatives in the next election, but they need to do something.

And I won't be fined as I am already enrolled and have valid reason to not vote (religious background).

Now I know in the last census Jedi Knight made a considerable jump in percentages as a religion, but what religion makes you immune to voting fines?

Respectfully, I disagree with Hans. CCP did not tell us that POS improvements were 100% going to be part of the summer expansion. If they had been willing to publicly commit to doing that work, I wouldn't have started the threadnaught.

As a voter, realize there is no such thing as a GÇÿperfect politicianGÇÖ, but you should strive to elect people that are capable of seeing all sides of an argument while still being able to stand up for their / your views

The concepts presented in some of the anti-CSM posts in here are absolutely hilarious:

Null and wormhole players don't represent the playerbase

... luckily it played out in such a way that the rest of the CSM could make the best of it.

I read this as "luckily we were able to ride Two Step's coattails."

So no way to remove your vote or change it in the system either.

Choices have consequences. Welcome to EVE!

So no way to remove your vote or change it in the system either.

Yes but choices can be to long lived, when new information has come to light.

Votes are recorded anonymously, so no, there's no editing once submitted.

Sorry mate, no taksie-backsies.

Well what good is a voting system that doesn't facilitate grandstanding and drama-queening???!!

Sorry mate, no taksie-backsies.

and on the eve of the polls closing candidate malcanis revealed to the world his terrible secret

Less than 11 hours left, with no ablity to pull your votes, Candidates can come out now and say anything, they steal candy from babies, like to wear make up, they hate the players, they were on CSM 7, any horrible deed at all, and there is bugger all we can do.


Except give them hell for 12 months.

and remember Malcanis's Second law: no taksie-backsies.

I'm wondering why you lump wearing makeup in with abusing infants.

Sorry mate, no taksie-backsies.

You don't put your face on before playing Kick The Baby?




tsk no standards no pride

Well this is eve.

CSM 7 in RL media http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-04-18/multiplayer-game-eve-online-cultivates-a-most-devoted-following#p2

In any rational world, including Eve, all CFC candidates would be disqualified as the goons organized a campaign to suppress the vote by plastering that link all over high sec...

You read it wrong. Stop bad mouthing Hans and Alex! They are two of the hardest working guys on the council and their feedback has been wonderful.

I like Aleks.

I'd rather two Aleks on the council, than two Hans. One is just a hardworker, whereas the other adds sycophant to his resume in heaps.

Poetic "I know the CSM better than people who have worked with them all year" Stanziel strikes again.

You can see Hans is a sycophant simply by reading any number of his forum posts. He's probably a hard worker. But he's also a suck-up, and more interested in keeping his new pals happy than supporting good gameplay.

I'd rather have two Aleks, someone who isn't intent on apologizing for everything CCP does, than someone who works hard while mindlessly defending CCP's every misstep.

It's really easy, actually - you just haven't been paying attention every other time this has been discussed. No matter how much everyone enjoys sensationalizing the story for political purposes (CSM "activism" sells really well!), the fact remains that the CSM was told, in no uncertain terms, that POS improvements were going to happen in the summer expansion. We'd been in talks with them about the importance of POS improvements since the beginning of our term, and we'd already told them that NOT working on POS's in the summer was unacceptable no matter how you slice it. CCP admitted in the summit that while they weren't going to be doing the full modular POS system, the abysmal current state of POS's had been made clear to them and that they would be addressing it directly. Two step had his constituency to consider, and felt he was doing his responsibility to push the issue regardless of the fact that we'd already obtained the commitment from CCP that we sought.

But did the threadnought change a goddamn thing other than tie up CCP's staff for a couple days trying to calm everyone down out of panic mode? Nope, the outcome was the same. But because it felt good, and was the closest thing to the Jita-shooting spirit we'd seen in CSM6's term, it's going to continue to be put on a pedestal and worshiped as a hero story by those that believe in the "activist" model irregardless of whether it was actually the reason POS improvements made it into Odyssey.

If you think the CSM's job is to counter CCP at every step of the way, you're crazy. If Two step had wanted to go "against the wishes of CCP" he would have had to ask them NOT to work on POS's at all. There are times when CCP acquiesces and gives the CSM what its asking for, and in my opinion these are the least appropriate times to try to strongarm them further. I'd personally much rather reward CCP's cooperation than punish it. Two step meant well, and has been a tireless advocate for the players, and this doesnt reflect poorly on him in the long run.

We simply disagreed at the time on how to best handle the situation, and since than the facts of the story have continued to be heavily politicized by various groups who like to use the threadnought story to make a point.

]You can see Hans is a sycophant simply by reading any number of his forum posts. He's probably a hard worker. But he's also a suck-up, and more interested in keeping his new pals happy than supporting good gameplay.

You've got Hans confused with Trebor. Hans is just non-confrontational to the extreme, which makes him a pretty poor lobbyist type (but ironically probably makes him a really nice guy outside of all of that). Trebor's the one who would sell anything and anyone out to remain in CCP's good graces.

The minute the CSM fails to be of use to CCP is the minute it ceases to exist.

I thought Hans quote earlier really made things clear as to why CSM7 looked so, well, lame duck..

See, your failing is that you rule out that a CSM can be both valuable to CCP AND to the players at the same time.

See, your failing is that you rule out that a CSM can be both valuable to CCP AND to the players at the same time.

In fact, it's worth remembering that CCP, the CSM and the players all have the same high level goal: to make EVE a better game.

Except CCP and CSM/Players want to make Eve a better game for some very distinct reasons. CCP desires a better game that will make money for them, while the players simply want a better game to play. Most of the time that can lead to mutual agreements, but there are certainly times where paths can diverge (POS, WiS).

It's one of the reasons I'm kind of sad that Two Step isn't running again - helpful or "hard worker" (ugh) as he may have been, when the time came, he didn't have a problem reminding CCP that the CSM is supposed to be a two way street. This also goes for any CSM that backed his threadnought as well.

CCP Affinity GÇô Content Designer

During 2012 I worked on Factional Warfare and the constant feedback and interaction we had with CSM7 helped make that feature what it is today. CSM7 have been a stellar CSM; they are determined, passionate yet very levelheaded. During FW development, they remained very involved in the ongoing work, gave good, clear and constructive feedback where necessary and, best of all, created and moderated a communication channel putting the designers involved in direct contact with the players most affected by our changes. CSM7 have been amazing both in making the voices of the player heard and interacting with CCP in a professional and meaningful way and I canGÇÖt wait to meet the new CSM 8.

The CSM is not and will never be representative of the player base as long as bloc-voting is possible