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Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 138	Posted - 2013.04.18 20:20:00 - [1] - Quote Sov warfare is almost universally considered as the biggest evil of 0.0, save perhaps RMTing. The current mechanic is timely and rewards he who brings most capitals. But what if warfare was won and lost not simply by the side with the biggest gun, but also by the side with the fastest draw? I see a lot of suggestions about a lot of things in Eve and often they are completely unrealistic or alien to what will ever be done.For example I'd love it if local was gone from 0.0 but that will never happen. Ideas need to be realistic and if the change is too dramatic or out of character, they won't happen. The number of stations in 0.0 is too damn high!!! Seriously though, have you ever flown through 0.0 and asked yourself "wtf am I nearing jita or something?" Why are there so many stations in 0.0? Providence has more station systems than non station systems. Fountain is better but you still have long stretches of space with station after station. Tribute has clusters of stations all around. This sort of terrain creates a turtling mentality. I can run my missions and do my mining in the same system where my station is. Neutrals in local? Dock up. They have 10 ships? We'll wait until we can form up 30. The person described above is not a coward nor a noob or a scrub. He's being smart and realistic. The problem isn't the player, its the mechanic that makes the player play a certain way which sucks. Step 1, One Constellation One Station Merge all stations in a constellation and any mothball assets into one station. Have it be central to that Constellation. WMN- in Kalevala for its respective constellation or 9GI in Tribute. In each case the station is central to the constellation and far enough from the station of any other constellation. Step 2, Put the farms and fields BEYOND the castle moat Like stated above, currently you can do your carebearing almost all within one click of a station dock. Step one limits the area where one can be a carebear. Step two would be to put the "good space" with the good anoms, belts and ice fields in systems away from the "station system" of the constellation. This will make people roam through space more without having everyone they meet simply dock up. If they want the fruits of their lands, they'll have to go out and get them and actually defend their ability to do it. Step 3, Get rid of most of the current sov structures SBU, TCU, I-HUB...who the hell gives enough of a damn to remember most of this non sense other than the fleet commanders and the logistic mules of 0.0 alliances? The very nature of the current sov mechanic screams "wait for someone with director roles to show up because you're worthless and should just spin ship in the meantime." Worst of all, NONE of these structures currently interact with the player on any meaningful level. (CONTINUED)
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 138	Posted - 2013.04.18 20:20:00 - [2] - Quote Step 4, It's the station stupid! Sov should be held not by some pointless meaningless structure that doesn't hold ships or provide refining or a clone bay or do anything meaningful for the player. What matters should be the station, the central point of the constellation. The defining yes/no aspect of sovwarfare should be the station. Flip that and you grab the whole constellation. It's already like that in a sense, you grab the "main fleet holding station" of your enemy and its game over. But under current sov mechanics you still have to go grind half a region. But wait there's more! Step 5, The step that makes it all meaningful. I probably lost you somewhere between step 3 and 4. I promise this will make it up. After all it would be stupid if all we did is have timers for one station that flipped a whole constellation. So pay attention. Throughout the entire constellation we set up numerous (One per planet perhaps) LOW HP structures (nerves) to shoot that affect the over all HP and Infastructure Upgrades of the station. Take enough HP in this way and the station holders suffer as the station itself becomes vulnerable to direct attack AND it becomes of less quality. The lower the HP on these "nerves" the more affect on the main station. Now you have to send out roaming squads to police your space so your station doesn't suffer adverse affects and make way for a direct assault on the station itself. So how would this play out? We'll use TEST and GOONS as an example as they were the ones saying that an all out sov war would be boring. TEST surprise attacks and decides to invade Cloud Ring via Placid. Their first target would be Balenne constellation which under the new sov system would have 77- as its station system. Now would they bring in a 1500 man fleet to hit some stupid structure until it hit some timer, reset and try again this time with 1500 man response fleet with 99 percent of the people involved would have the contribution of "orbit anchor, hit F1 at primary." NO!!! Under the new sov mechanic it isn't tactically viable to bring in that many numbers. Attacking with battleships and carriers wouldn't be cost effective because your targets are numerous low HP structures. Instead you're going to have to send out small squads of 10-20 Cruisers bouncing all over the system in a cat and mouse game with the defenders. Mobility and warp speed is going to be the important aspect of this warfare, not just EHP and DPS. Do you hear that sound? That's the sound of MEANINGFUL actually sov affecting small gang PVP to 0.0. The defender will have to form up their own small gang cruiser fleets to deal with this or their station will provide less refining, crappier anoms and so on and so forth. Now let's say TEST manages to destroy enough (70 or so percent) of these "nerves" through their skillful small gang cruiser pvp. The station in the central system becomes vulnerable to attack. NOW you have the epic thousand + people in local fleets. But now you have it under a new and much more varied dynamic. You had skirmishing make way for a main invasion force. TEST does enough damage to the station
Doc Fury Furious Enterprises 1615	Posted - 2013.04.18 20:21:00 - [3] - Quote --> Features & Ideas Discussion The accumulated filth of all their sex and murder will foam up about their waists and all the ho's and politicians will look up and shout 'Save us!' and I'll look down, and whisper 'Hodor'.
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 138	Posted - 2013.04.18 20:24:00 - [4] - Quote Doc Fury wrote: --> Features & Ideas Discussion Sure and if I want to change national political policy I'll write my senator.
Drunken Bum 117	Posted - 2013.04.18 20:28:00 - [5] - Quote I once got so drunk i woke up in another city next to a pregnant junkie hooker who'd overdosed. The baby was still alive. Spare some change?-á
Unsuccessful At Everything The Troll Bridge 3168	Posted - 2013.04.18 20:33:00 - [6] - Quote Posting in a not-so-stealth 'Nerf the big blue blob' thread. *Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?*
Wacktopia Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group 504	Posted - 2013.04.18 20:35:00 - [7] - Quote Not until they come up with a POS overhaul that has something better than those goddam shared SMAs. #savejita
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 138	Posted - 2013.04.18 20:37:00 - [8] - Quote Wacktopia wrote: Not until they come up with a POS overhaul that has something better than those goddam shared SMAs. Kind of goes with the assumption that they're doing that, but yeah.
Rudina GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 3	Posted - 2013.04.18 23:04:00 - [9] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Posting in a not-so-stealth 'Nerf the big blue blob' thread. I think its actually a stealth 'buff TEST' thread.
Nex apparatu5 Friendship is Podding Test Alliance Please Ignore 477	Posted - 2013.04.18 23:10:00 - [10] - Quote This may be the single worst "fix sov" suggestion I had ever seen on this forum, including the one where the guy wanted all stations to be open to everyone.
Hannah Flex laissez-faire economics 317	Posted - 2013.04.18 23:37:00 - [11] - Quote One station per constellation? LOL that'd kill off the last 5 guys that still do industry in 0.0
Trendon Evenstar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 158	Posted - 2013.04.18 23:44:00 - [12] - Quote Dearest Original Poster, please list the sovereignty wars that you have been involved in, the extent of that involvement, and the times and dates so we may know you have the credibility to pontificate on sovereignty matters. Thanks in advance.
Falin Whalen GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 326	Posted - 2013.04.18 23:46:00 - [13] - Quote Nex apparatu5 wrote: This may be the single worst "fix sov" suggestion I had ever seen on this forum, including the one where the guy wanted all stations to be open to everyone. "That would have worked if you hadn't stopped me." - Dr. Egon Spengler You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons.
Hannah Flex laissez-faire economics 317	Posted - 2013.04.18 23:47:00 - [14] - Quote Trendon Evenstar wrote: Dearest Original Poster, please list the sovereignty wars that you have been involved in, the extent of that involvement, and the times and dates so we may know you have the credibility to pontificate on sovereignty matters. Thanks in advance.
Hannah Flex laissez-faire economics 317	Posted - 2013.04.18 23:53:00 - [15] - Quote Also: how many regions/constellations does your alliance hold? How long have they held them? How long did it take to capture them? How many times have you successfully defended your sov? These are the things we need to know.
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 139	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:24:00 - [16] - Quote All the mew mew simply proves my point. The F1 "pvpers" would be afraid if their alliances held sov not simply by numbers, but some actual small gang pvp. You ask me how many regions my corp holds...well what did you do to contribute to your coalition? Show up? Press F1 when told to?
SmilingVagrant GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1558	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:28:00 - [17] - Quote Wow someone came up with a worse idea than POS war.
SmilingVagrant GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1558	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:29:00 - [18] - Quote Seraph IX Basarab wrote: All the mew mew simply proves my point. The F1 "pvpers" would be afraid if their alliances held sov not simply by numbers, but some actual small gang pvp. You ask me how many regions my corp holds...well what did you do to contribute to your coalition? Show up? Press F1 when told to? Sov 0.0 isn't about small gang pvp. It's about empire building.
Falin Whalen GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 326	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:30:00 - [19] - Quote Seraph IX Basarab wrote: All the mew mew simply proves my point. The F1 "pvpers" would be afraid if their alliances held sov not simply by numbers, but some actual small gang pvp. You ask me how many regions my corp holds...well what did you do to contribute to your coalition? Show up? Press F1 when told to? HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Just because we are trolling you, doesn't mean we are all F1 monkeys, afraid of small gang pew. It means you have a bad idea and should feel bad for proposing it. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons.
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 139	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:32:00 - [20] - Quote SmilingVagrant wrote: Seraph IX Basarab wrote: All the mew mew simply proves my point. The F1 "pvpers" would be afraid if their alliances held sov not simply by numbers, but some actual small gang pvp. You ask me how many regions my corp holds...well what did you do to contribute to your coalition? Show up? Press F1 when told to? Sov 0.0 isn't about small gang pvp. It's about empire building. If you had the slightest concept of how warfare works you would know that all ages of war have both a skirmish phase and a main phase. From the Greek phalanx formations to today. The fact of the matter is there is no meaningful reason to do small gang/skirmish pvp that would affect sov warfare at all what so ever. Now I know it might be scary that you'll have to do more than orbit/F1/MWD but it will be much more fun.
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 139	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:33:00 - [21] - Quote Falin Whalen wrote: Seraph IX Basarab wrote: All the mew mew simply proves my point. The F1 "pvpers" would be afraid if their alliances held sov not simply by numbers, but some actual small gang pvp. You ask me how many regions my corp holds...well what did you do to contribute to your coalition? Show up? Press F1 when told to? HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Just because we are trolling you, doesn't mean we are all F1 monkeys, afraid of small gang pew. It means you have a bad idea and should feel bad for proposing it. A bad idea for F1 monkeys. Got it. Troll away, we all have to be good at something i suppose.
Falin Whalen GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 326	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:36:00 - [22] - Quote Seraph IX Basarab wrote: If you had the slightest concept of how warfare works you would know that all ages of war have both a skirmish phase and a main phase. From the Greek phalanx formations to today. The fact of the matter is there is no meaningful reason to do small gang/skirmish pvp that would affect sov warfare at all what so ever. Now I know it might be scary that you'll have to do more than orbit/F1/MWD but it will be much more fun. Keep banging your head against that wall of stupid, you'll get through eventually. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons.
Spurty V0LTA Verge of Collapse 840	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:36:00 - [23] - Quote SmilingVagrant wrote: Sov 0.0 isn't about small gang pvp. It's about empire building. Haha golden Best comedy post ever --- GÇ£If you think this Universe is bad, you should see some of the others.GÇ¥ GÇò Philip K. ****
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 139	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:43:00 - [24] - Quote Falin Whalen wrote: Seraph IX Basarab wrote: If you had the slightest concept of how warfare works you would know that all ages of war have both a skirmish phase and a main phase. From the Greek phalanx formations to today. The fact of the matter is there is no meaningful reason to do small gang/skirmish pvp that would affect sov warfare at all what so ever. Now I know it might be scary that you'll have to do more than orbit/F1/MWD but it will be much more fun. Keep banging your head against that wall of stupid, you'll get through eventually. I'm not banging my head, I'm just speaking to you.
Hannah Flex laissez-faire economics 318	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:47:00 - [25] - Quote Since you are ignoring my question- I take that to mean that you have never been in a sov-holding alliance, have never been in a sov war, yet you know everything that is wrong with it and how to fix it?
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 139	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:55:00 - [26] - Quote Hannah Flex wrote: Since you are ignoring my question- I take that to mean that you have never been in a sov-holding alliance, have never been in a sov war, yet you know everything that is wrong with it and how to fix it? I was part of Stainwagon a few years ago. And what? Does it even matter? Who are you?
Hannah Flex laissez-faire economics 318	Posted - 2013.04.19 00:59:00 - [27] - Quote Seraph IX Basarab wrote: Hannah Flex wrote: Since you are ignoring my question- I take that to mean that you have never been in a sov-holding alliance, have never been in a sov war, yet you know everything that is wrong with it and how to fix it? I was part of Stainwagon a few years ago. And what? Does it even matter? Who are you? It matters a great deal. I am a consumer researching a product. If you want to be taken seriously about such a complicated matter you need to understand the nature of the beast. I would listen to Shadoo about sov, I would listen to goon logi directors about sov, I'm not sure I would listen to some dude who 'was in Stainwagon' a few YEARS ago about sov.
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 139	Posted - 2013.04.19 01:00:00 - [28] - Quote Hannah Flex wrote: Seraph IX Basarab wrote: Hannah Flex wrote: Since you are ignoring my question- I take that to mean that you have never been in a sov-holding alliance, have never been in a sov war, yet you know everything that is wrong with it and how to fix it? I was part of Stainwagon a few years ago. And what? Does it even matter? Who are you? It matters a great deal. I am a consumer researching a product. If you want to be taken seriously about such a complicated matter you need to understand the nature of the beast. I would listen to Shadoo about sov, I would listen to goon logi directors about sov, I'm not sure I would listen to some dude who 'was in Stainwagon' a few YEARS ago about sov. Do you also listen to cigarette lobbyists about the health affects of smoking?
Lady Ayeipsia Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 601	Posted - 2013.04.19 01:01:00 - [29] - Quote Given the extremely limited slots and options available for nul stations, how would you balance this?Station Indy slots, refining, repair, offices, med facilities would all have to be crammed into one. I believe this is not possible now. If my corp/alliance has 1 station, we have 1 med bay for all clones. What stops a large alliance from just caging the station undock so we can never escape to form skirmisher fleets? Since stations require upkeep costs, how do you generate a comparable isk sink? Simply raise price, hindering small groups who may not be able to make as much isk as an established nul corp? Would you treat NPC space the same? One station in a constellation would greatly hinder NPC nul dwellers. Would your suggestion drive people to skip stations all together, just use poses, leading to a dead station mechanic? Lastly, why are you attempting to deprive people of one great aspect of this game, creating their own, nearly permenant structure? Yes it can be lost, but I have never heard of a station being killed. Seriously, I have dreams (and almost the skills, 1 off). I want to build a station, it seems the loftiest goal for a manufacturer. Titan would be nice, but a station, that is a dream to strive for and a reason to play. Heck, that is player created content at it's finest. A station in the void if space, open to all, that may last the life of the game... You can't get much lofter of an indy dream. Why deprive us of our chance to leave a near permanent mark?
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 139	Posted - 2013.04.19 01:31:00 - [30] - Quote Lady Ayeipsia Given the extremely limited slots and options available for nul stations, how would you balance this?Station Indy slots, refining, repair, offices, med facilities would all have to be crammed into one. I believe this is not possible now. Add more slots, and everything else needed. Lady Ayeipsia If my corp/alliance has 1 station, we have 1 med bay for all clones. What stops a large alliance from just caging the station undock so we can never escape to form skirmisher fleets? If you hold any sort of sov you have allies or you're a renter or you're big enough to roll out of the station and fight them. You have a logistics advantage which your enemy does not. In any case it's better than the current "they brought more supers and won" scenario today. Lady Ayeipsia Since stations require upkeep costs, how do you generate a comparable isk sink? Simply raise price, hindering small groups who may not be able to make as much isk as an established nul corp? Why? One station just means everyone in that constellation will use that station, not that stations will be used less. If your ship is damaged or you need ammo, you'll go to a station. You don't need 9 stations all next to one another to do this. The isk sink isn't touched. Lady Ayeipsia Would you treat NPC space the same? One station in a constellation would greatly hinder NPC nul dwellers. NPC space would probably remain the same. Has nothing to do with sov. Lady Ayeipsia Would your suggestion drive people to skip stations all together, just use poses, leading to a dead station mechanic? [/quote No it wouldn't. Lady Ayeipsia Lastly, why are you attempting to deprive people of one great aspect of this game, creating their own, nearly permenant structure? Yes it can be lost, but I have never heard of a station being killed. Seriously, I have dreams (and almost the skills, 1 off). I want to build a station, it seems the loftiest goal for a manufacturer. Titan would be nice, but a station, that is a dream to strive for and a reason to play. Heck, that is player created content at it's finest. A station in the void if space, open to all, that may last the life of the game... You can't get much lofter of an indy dream. Why deprive us of our chance to leave a near permanent mark?[/quote Because it hinders gameplay. People just spin ship when any challenge presence itself and turtle. How about adding "monument structures" like in Jita? But adding station after station after station in 0.0 will make it boring.
Falin Whalen GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 326	Posted - 2013.04.19 02:00:00 - [31] - Quote Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons.
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 139	Posted - 2013.04.19 02:00:00 - [32] - Quote Falin Whalen wrote: Your theories are the worst kind of popular tripe, your methods are sloppy, and your conclusions are highly questionable! Can you outline specifics rather than... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzOBlPKZjxE
Wooly Akachi Capital Storm. WHY so Seri0Us 4	Posted - 2013.04.19 02:05:00 - [33] - Quote Umm No. maybe something more like 1 main station per constalation (better than current stations) and each system can support a field station (destructable and not as good as current stations(less upgrade slots)) you need to take out the field stations to be able to attack the main station. that took about 5 min of thought so there is most likely some large-ish holes in there some where
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 7590	Posted - 2013.04.19 02:06:00 - [34] - Quote what do you know about sov war besides "nothing" mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 7590	Posted - 2013.04.19 02:14:00 - [35] - Quote Seraph IX Basarab please walk us through the process of taking a station system, and what you'd do if your station system was SBUed and reinforced mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8
Eram Fidard Republic Military School Minmatar Republic 74	Posted - 2013.04.19 02:17:00 - [36] - Quote I think that before you post this kind of thing so publicly, you should probably take a look at this: http://i.imgur.com/NOTa2Pf.png

ISD Dorrim Barstorlode ISD Community Communications Liaisons 2139	Posted - 2013.04.19 02:18:00 - [37] - Quote I have removed an off topic post. Please keep it on topic and civil. Thank you. ISD Dorrim Barstorlode Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department

James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 4608	Posted - 2013.04.19 02:23:00 - [38] - Quote Spurty wrote: SmilingVagrant wrote: Sov 0.0 isn't about small gang pvp. It's about empire building. Haha golden Best comedy post ever Says someone who doesn't live in 0.0 and thinks everything should revolve around small-gang PVP. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix
Nitrogen Isotopes Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 15	Posted - 2013.04.19 02:27:00 - [39] - Quote Eram Fidard wrote: http://i.imgur.com/NOTa2Pf.png Is that an oracle shooting a drake? Tell me that's an oracle shooting a drake.
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 142	Posted - 2013.04.19 03:41:00 - [40] - Quote @ Wooly, "maybe something more like 1 main station per constalation (better than current stations) and each system can support a field station (destructable and not as good as current stations(less upgrade slots))" Yeah that would work as well having destructible stations except for the "central" one. "you need to take out the field stations to be able to attack the main station. that took about 5 min of thought so there is most likely some large-ish holes in there some where" Well the hole is that this is just a simplified thing that we have now. It doesn't have the "skirmish small gang" aspect to it. @ Andski, While Goons are run by an almost real world government like bureaucracy, I can see why they have you just press F1. Why would you ask me to write something out you can easily look up?
Tul Breetai Impromptu Asset Requisition Insurance Fraud. 251	Posted - 2013.04.19 03:52:00 - [41] - Quote Who's got the popcorn? Gonna need a refill. There's nothing worse than an EVE player, generally considered to be top of the food chain in the MMO world, that cannot smacktalk with wit and coherency.
dark heartt I Own Four Sheep The Methodical Alliance 100	Posted - 2013.04.19 04:02:00 - [42] - Quote Why do you think that there should only be one station for each constellation? If an corp, alliance or coalition can afford to have 1 outpost in each system, shouldn't they be allowed to?
Hannah Flex laissez-faire economics 321	Posted - 2013.04.19 04:17:00 - [43] - Quote dark heartt wrote: Why do you think that there should only be one station for each constellation? If an corp, alliance or coalition can afford to have 1 outpost in each system, shouldn't they be allowed to? Because he and his ilk detest the massive battles of sovereignty warfare (which clearly CCP and the general public love) See: Asakai, and wants to turn 0.0 into small-gang pvp haven
SmilingVagrant GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1559	Posted - 2013.04.19 04:29:00 - [44] - Quote Hannah Flex wrote: dark heartt wrote: Why do you think that there should only be one station for each constellation? If an corp, alliance or coalition can afford to have 1 outpost in each system, shouldn't they be allowed to? Because he and his ilk detest the massive battles of sovereignty warfare (which clearly CCP and the general public love) See: Asakai, and wants to turn 0.0 into small-gang pvp haven Why doesn't he go to NPC null then? That's 90% of what happens in Syndicate. Unless of course he can't hang.
LHA Tarawa Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 572	Posted - 2013.04.19 04:32:00 - [45] - Quote Fix sov by making no one want to hold sov, while also driving more people to high sec by removing the few reasons some bother to leave high sec. Why you want everyone in high sec?
LHA Tarawa Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 572	Posted - 2013.04.19 04:43:00 - [46] - Quote Seraph IX Basarab wrote: Step 1, One Constellation One Station Step 2, Put the farms and fields BEYOND the castle moat This will make people roam through space more without having everyone they meet simply dock up. If they want the fruits of their lands, they'll have to go out and get them and actually defend their ability to do it. Any time you use the word "make", you show your ignorance. You can NOT make anyone do anything. You can make an activity less profitable than another, and magically, everyone will stop doing that less profitable activity. The result of your change would be to move even more people from null to high sec. Then let me guess. You'll whine for nerfs to high sec to "make" people go back to null. You can not force people to play the game, so you can not "make" them play the way you want them to play. Attempts to do so will simply cause them to stop playing.
dark heartt I Own Four Sheep The Methodical Alliance 100	Posted - 2013.04.19 04:45:00 - [47] - Quote Hannah Flex wrote: dark heartt wrote: Why do you think that there should only be one station for each constellation? If an corp, alliance or coalition can afford to have 1 outpost in each system, shouldn't they be allowed to? Because he and his ilk detest the massive battles of sovereignty warfare (which clearly CCP and the general public love) See: Asakai, and wants to turn 0.0 into small-gang pvp haven Ah. This explains it. Eve has always been about the massive battles and war stories that come with it for me (even though I have next to no experience in that realm of gameplay). In other news, posting in an anti-blob thread.
LHA Tarawa Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 572	Posted - 2013.04.19 04:54:00 - [48] - Quote Seraph IX Basarab wrote: Step 5, The step that makes it all meaningful. Now would they bring in a 1500 man fleet to hit some stupid structure until it hit some timer, reset and try again this time with 1500 man response fleet with 99 percent of the people involved would have the contribution of "orbit anchor, hit F1 at primary." Instead you're going to have to send out small squads of 10-20 Cruisers bouncing all over the system in a cat and mouse game with the defenders. Why wouldn't they roll 7, 200 man fleets in battle ships to alpha your low hp structures? Why wouldn't they have massive bubble camps in that one system with a station that all the defenders are trapped in? Why wouldn't they have a fleet of caps and super caps hanging around? In case the defenders get some idea to break the camp? Without timers, you go to bed in a station you own, and wake up 8 hours later to find the station flipped. You can't undock without all your stuff being inaccessible? Why would anyone move to null if it is that easy to lose all your stuff? The grind is designed to create a level of safety and stability necessary to get people to leave high sec and move to null. Your post assumes people will behave the way you want them too rather than the way that makes the most sense, from their point of view.
LHA Tarawa Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic 572	Posted - 2013.04.19 04:59:00 - [49] - Quote dark heartt wrote: In other news, posting in an anti-blob thread. Of course it is an anti-blob thread. Well, anti-carebear and anti-blob thread. OP envisions an EVE universe where all players fly around in groups of 10-20 (or fewer) cruisers or smaller. What he fails to do is provide ideas for mechanics that will achieve that. Instead, what he proposes will push the few null bears to high sec, while breaking the blob up from 1 fleet of 1500, into 7 fleets of 100 and a station camping fleet of 1000.
Arronicus Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective 549	Posted - 2013.04.19 05:25:00 - [50] - Quote Not sure if this is some extremely elaborate trolling attempt/joke/attempt to rustle jimmies, or you seriously think that this is a good idea. Now I could stoop to such simplicities as pointing out that your example system (WMN- in Kalevala) is actually WNM-, or that many constelattions do not have true central systems (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/The_Kalevala_Expanse/78-6RI#const) or I could point out the fact that it is highly impractical to have stations centralized. Or the fact that many of them are NOT centralized, because they serve strategic purposes being in the systems they are in. Or I could get into how you would be taking away stations from various entities, and forcing them into the hands of one entity, in cases where different alliances hold station sovreignty in the same system. Or the fact of how many super/capital builders and the likes would no longer be able to produce in their systems off their bpos from station if it wasnt in station. Or how upgrades for stations would have to be completely overhauled, and there are big questions how you would handle the merging of so many factory slots. But all that is pretty pointless, because there are not too many stations. Your argument is built around a false premise, that the stations are the cause of the problem. You also fail on your assumption that moving valuable sites out of station systems, will make the people performing isk-making activities in these systems more risk prone. This is simply not true. People who make money in systems that do not have a station in them, use a control tower. As such, with multiple control towers in a system, and the fact that the control towers generally have defenses, you cannot simply jump in, warp to the station, drop a bubble, and wait for carebears to get caught. Instead, you have to actually catch them in the belts, sites, missions, etc. This makes it HARDER for you to catch them, and does not create more roaming. I've lived out of a pos many times, and not just in wormhole space. You compress your ore, and jump freightering to the nearest station system, or via rorqual, will still be a completely safe activity, provided you don't do something moronic (on the scale of this thread) like jumping into your pos system with hostiles in local. As for getting rid of the structures, and making it all about the station? You sir, are actually making it HARDER to conquer sov, and far easier to defend it. No longer do you have to spread your forces out to cover the various SBUs, no longer do you have to check the timer on your Ihub, or TCU. No longer do you have to go defend tons of systems. Now you can just sit your super fleet on top of the station, and when anyone shows up, if they want to take any part of that constellation, they HAVE to fight you, on your home turf. You're taking away disruption mechanics (dropping SBUs to harass), and you're taking away the ability of hostile fleets to sit somewhere safer for them (on a gate, as opposed to on a hostile station, where enemies can play docking games, or reship), and are making it much safer for the defender. Your idea strongly favours the defender, will promote stagnation, and make it harder to flip sov. The last part of your scenario is pointless for me to touch on, as you have completely missed the point on what would actually happen, as a result of this suggestion. This is a terrible idea, that was horribly thought out, and the only good thing that came from this thread (other than the opportunity for me to point out to you how wrong you are), is that in the future when someone else has the same stupid idea, we will be able to link them back to this thread, and tell them to stop regurgitating old failed ideas. /thread
Arronicus Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective 549	Posted - 2013.04.19 05:28:00 - [51] - Quote Unsuccessful At Everything wrote: Posting in a not-so-stealth 'Nerf the big blue blob' thread. Except you know, this would make eve safer for the blue doughnut, and other supergroups, as briefly outlined in my post.
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 143	Posted - 2013.04.19 06:25:00 - [52] - Quote dark heartt "Why do you think that there should only be one station for each constellation? If an corp, alliance or coalition can afford to have 1 outpost in each system, shouldn't they be allowed to?" Because it builds a turtling mentality. Yes POS can fulfill a similar role but more people are prone to go to station rather than a pos. Hannah Flex "Because he and his ilk detest the massive battles of sovereignty warfare (which clearly CCP and the general public love) See: Asakai, and wants to turn 0.0 into small-gang pvp haven" I don't detest it. On the contrary my greatest love is finding a big battle and dropping bombs on one side or another if not both. But it shouldn't be the only type of combat that affects sov in a meaningful way. I think my ideas (which as pointed out are on par with FW and look what the mechanics did for FW) would help change that. You have both small gang and grand battle pvp. SmilingVagrant "Why doesn't he go to NPC null then? That's 90% of what happens in Syndicate. Unless of course he can't hang." Of course the funny thing is that I am currently in Syndicate. And also this thread is about sov mechanics, not NPC space. LHA, "Fix sov by making no one want to hold sov, while also driving more people to high sec by removing the few reasons some bother to leave high sec. Why you want everyone in high sec?" Why would no one want to hold it? "Any time you use the word "make", you show your ignorance. You can NOT make anyone do anything. You can make an activity less profitable than another, and magically, everyone will stop doing that less profitable activity. The result of your change would be to move even more people from null to high sec. Then let me guess. You'll whine for nerfs to high sec to "make" people go back to null. You can not force people to play the game, so you can not "make" them play the way you want them to play. Attempts to do so will simply cause them to stop playing." LHA you know what is funny? In your previous post you said I was "making" people move to high sec. Then the very next post you contradict your own reasoning. Why are you acting like the current mecahnics are some written in stone gold standard that needs to be followed or else people will stop playing? Yes make HS less profitable but make 0.0 more risky at the same time. "Why wouldn't they roll 7, 200 man fleets in battle ships to alpha your low hp structures? Why wouldn't they have massive bubble camps in that one system with a station that all the defenders are trapped in? Why wouldn't they have a fleet of caps and super caps hanging around? In case the defenders get some idea to break the camp?" Because if you can divide an enemy force, you can beat it. You only need local superiority, not over all. And yeah they can bubble camp your station but they'd have to do it for a week straight non stop for what you said to happen. "Without timers, you go to bed in a station you own, and wake up 8 hours later to find the station flipped. You can't undock without all your stuff being inaccessible? " LHA did you even read the thread? Who talked about taking timers away? What you fail to do is reading comprehension.
Seraph IX Basarab Hades Effect 143	Posted - 2013.04.19 06:25:00 - [53] - Quote Arronicus "Not sure if this is some extremely elaborate trolling attempt/joke/attempt to rustle jimmies, or you seriously think that this is a good idea. Now I could stoop to such simplicities as pointing out that your example system (WMN- in Kalevala) is actually WNM-" Plus nobody cares about a typo. Don't forget that, perhaps the most important part. "or that many constelattions do not have true central systems (http://evemaps.dotlan.net/map/The_Kalevala_Expanse/78-6RI#const)" Obviously FBH. It has the most links to other constellation systems. Furthermore almost as pointless as your previous criticism. Something easily worked around even if true. "or I could point out the fact that it is highly impractical to have stations centralized. Or the fact that many of them are NOT centralized, because they serve strategic purposes being in the systems they are in. " Probably your only smart move in this discussion. "Or I could get into how you would be taking away stations from various entities, and forcing them into the hands of one entity, in cases where different alliances hold station sovreignty in the same system." Make an equal and fair division where needed. "Or the fact of how many super/capital builders and the likes would no longer be able to produce in their systems off their bpos from station if it wasnt in station. Or how upgrades for stations would have to be completely overhauled, and there are big questions how you would handle the merging of so many factory slots." Can be worked around. "But all that is pretty pointless, because there are not too many stations. Your argument is built around a false premise, that the stations are the cause of the problem. " Except that that isn't the premise. Fine keep the stations, make them destructible though and stick to the central station flipping the constellation rather than this drag of a sov mechanic we have in place. "You also fail on your assumption that moving valuable sites out of station systems, will make the people performing isk-making activities in these systems more risk prone. This is simply not true. " So let me ask you this, are you more or less safe with a friendly station in system. Go. "People who make money in systems that do not have a station in them, use a control tower. As such, with multiple control towers in a system, and the fact that the control towers generally have defenses, you cannot simply jump in, warp to the station, drop a bubble, and wait for carebears to get caught. Instead, you have to actually catch them in the belts, sites, missions, etc. This makes it HARDER for you to catch them, and does not create more roaming. I've lived out of a pos many times, and not just in wormhole space. You compress your ore, and jump freightering to the nearest station system, or via rorqual, will still be a completely safe activity, provided you don't do something moronic (on the scale of this thread) like jumping into your pos system with hostiles in local." But at the end of the day everyone has to come back to a station. Except now everyone will be focused on one main station. You can also try dropping a bubble on an asteroid belt btw. "As for getting rid of the structures, and making it all about the station? You sir, are actually making it HARDER to conquer sov, and far easier to defend it. No longer do you have to spread your forces out to cover the various SBUs, no longer do you have to check the timer on your Ihub, or TCU. No longer do you have to go defend tons of systems. Now you can just sit your super fleet on top of the station, and when anyone shows up, if they want to take any part of that constellation, they HAVE to fight you, on your home turf. You're taking away disruption mechanics (dropping SBUs to harass), and you're taking away the ability of hostile fleets to sit somewhere safer for them (on a gate, as opposed to on a hostile station, where enemies can play docking games, or reship), and are making it much safer for the defender." I don't think you read the full article. You know the part that talks about the "nerve structures" and all that that you'd need to run around and defend so that your station does not become vulnerable. It would help if you actually read the OP rather than rant in the wind. "Your idea strongly favours the defender, will promote stagnation, and make it harder to flip sov." You think that after not reading the article of course. "The last part of your scenario is pointless for me to touch on, as you have completely missed the point on what would actually happen, as a result of this suggestion. This is a terrible idea, that was horribly thought out, and the only good thing that came from this thread (other than the opportunity for me to point out to you how wrong you are), is that in the future when someone else has the same stupid idea, we will be able to link them back to this thread, and tell them to stop regurgitating old failed ideas." Actually the best part of your post is that we can all see your complete lack of reading comprehension. Thankfully now we can all point that out and refer you somewhere for help.
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 7591	Posted - 2013.04.19 08:11:00 - [54] - Quote Seraph IX Basarab wrote: @ Andski, While Goons are run by an almost real world government like bureaucracy, I can see why they have you just press F1. Why would you ask me to write something out you can easily look up? Because the mark of somebody who knows what the **** they're talking about isn't just in being able to explain a process but detail several eventualities and how to deal with said eventualities As a "guy who occasionally runs bomber gangs" you're not one of those people mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest. Malcanis for CSM 8
Solstice Project Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic 3235	Posted - 2013.04.19 08:17:00 - [55] - Quote Good morning everybody. Wow, this guy has no idea. lol Anyway, i had three beer and three white russians yesterday, just ate an egg sandwich and made myself a whole litre of green tea to drive away the aftermaths of my not actually excessive intake of alcohol yesterday. This always helps, btw. Hurray for green tea ! :D So, to stay on topic i hereby post how to fix hangovers. See ... it's ... like ... uhm ... ah yes. I wasn't drinking anything for two months now, i think. Slowly starting again, had my first beer of that period two weeks ago. You know, the worst part about not drinking is that, when you drink again, it's not necessarily easier to get drunk, but actually gives you more pain the next morning ! Otoh heavy, daily drinkers don't suffer from these consequences. They don't have the headaches, because they drink all day anyway, so their life is actually much easier than the life of those who don't drink every day. Therefore, the only logical conclusion is to drink every day, because that leads to less pain ! Now where's my Nobel prize ...
Arronicus Shadows of Vorlon The Marmite Collective 549	Posted - 2013.04.19 08:28:00 - [56] - Quote Plus nobody cares about a typo. Don't forget that, perhaps the most important part. Read the forums more. Many of us dislike typos, especially when referencing important systems. Obviously FBH. It has the most links to other constellation systems. Furthermore almost as pointless as your previous criticism. Something easily worked around even if true. That's not a true center system, and YOU are selecting it based on strategic importance, something I have labelled as an issue here. There is no 'center' system, unless the distance between the outer points of all the systems is triangulated. Make an equal and fair division where needed. 1 constellation, 2 stations, held by seperate alliances, each alliance only holds the one station. Both alliances are of roughly the same size, and have helped take the space together, or have lived there roughly equivelant times. How do you propose to fairly and equally divide the station? Can be worked around. Is an absolutely massive inconvenience to relocate supercapital construction. So let me ask you this, are you more or less safe with a friendly station in system. Go. Because we are discussing hunting and killing of isk makers, THEY are less safe, while making isk, with a station in system. As am I, when I am making money. Why? Because the station provides a false sense of security. Bubbles can be thrown up on it by a fast dictor, it could have a tiny undock radius that you are not within warping to it, among other things. With a pos, you show up, they warp to one of the poses. SUPPOSE you pick the right one. SUPPOSE you get a dictor bubble up, and sling them to prevent them from getting inside the bubble, they still have guns on their side, and are much safer. Non station systems are safer for making isk in. But at the end of the day everyone has to come back to a station. Except now everyone will be focused on one main station. You can also try dropping a bubble on an asteroid belt btw. Not really, no. Once you live in wormhole space, you very quickly learn that you don't NEED stations very often while doing active isk acquisition (Ratting, Anoms, Mining, Gas Harvesting, Exploration, ammo ressuply, pvp ship storage, repairs. (provided you keep some extra drone stock, and nanite paste). You think that after not reading the article of course. Having gone back and read through, I still stand by my point, that it will be easier for the defender.
Jitalt Pirkibo Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 7	Posted - 2013.04.19 09:10:00 - [57] - Quote Hannah Flex wrote: dark heartt wrote: Why do you think that there should only be one station for each constellation? If an corp, alliance or coalition can afford to have 1 outpost in each system, shouldn't they be allowed to? Because he and his ilk detest the massive battles of sovereignty warfare (which clearly CCP and the general public love) See: Asakai, and wants to turn 0.0 into small-gang pvp haven Yeah - because Asakai was totally a SOV-motivated battle. And "massive battles of sovereignity warfare" come about at the end of every single timer. And therefor SOV-grind burnout has basically never been a concern. ... Oh. Wait. I don't care about his credentials. The more proposals there are, the more inspiration there is for CCP when coming up with SOV-fixes. And don't kid yourselves - there are salvageable parts in this proposal.
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 4610	Posted - 2013.04.19 09:30:00 - [58] - Quote Well, I kind of stopped reading at "the number of stations is too high!!!!1111!1!!1!!!!" because one station max per system is such an obscene system. Malcanis for CSM 8 Module activation timers are buggy - CCP please fix
Bluetippedflyer Mafia Redux Phobia. 79	Posted - 2013.04.19 09:40:00 - [59] - Quote i think ppl would be suprized at the number of eve subscribers that would enjoy this sov model, thx goons for shitposting/bumping
March rabbit epTa Team Inc. 634	Posted - 2013.04.19 09:56:00 - [60] - Quote ... and here we see REAL opinion of 0.0-dwellers about "boring SOV", "bring small gang into 0.0" and other things. and this opinion is: DON"T TOUCH MY TIMERS AND SOV-GRINDING!
Mara Rinn Cosmic Goo Convertor Cosmic Consortium 3261	Posted - 2013.04.19 10:00:00 - [61] - Quote I agree. The number of NPC stations is far too high. We need to be rid of them all. Give players the modular starbase system and get NPCs to use the same mechanism. People will build their own stations where they are most useful. Space will be developed by the people who live there. Of course the advantage will go to the team with the most steam rollers, but they already have that advantage anyway. Day 0 advice for new players: Day 0 Advice for New Players

CCP Eterne C C P C C P Alliance 2299	Posted - 2013.04.19 10:20:00 - [62] - Quote Moving from General Discussion to Features & Ideas. New Eden Community Representative GÇ+ New Eden Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept @CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents

Fearghaz Tiwas ZOMBIEBEACHPARTYPATROL Circle-Of-Two 17	Posted - 2013.04.19 11:16:00 - [63] - Quote I don't necessarily agree with some of what you've written, but I do like the idea of there being a lot of small HP structures that can be taken down to make the constellation vulnerable. When I read that, I had a vision of several small fleets being organised to quickly take down as many of these structures simultaneously, and then forming up into one large force to take the station. I think this would be pretty cool, and more like actual warfare. On the rest, with the incoming POS changes (aren't we maybe getting personal hangers) won't stations be less important anyway? The only reason, for me that is, to use a station over a POS is the personal hangers, so assuming the POS changes do include hangers, it might work. Saying that, I can totally understand the idea that manufacturers aspire to leave a station as something of a legacy.
Falin Whalen GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 326	Posted - 2013.04.19 15:35:00 - [64] - Quote OP has no experience in sov holding or sov grinding, is repetadly told how nullsec residents would exploit it, and keeps insisting that *HIS* way is best. OP I'm sure someone with your qualifications would have no trouble finding a top-flight job in either the food service or housekeeping industries. You've got to remember that these are just simple miners. These are people of the land. The common clay of New Eden. You know... morons.
Asuka Solo Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises 2370	Posted - 2013.04.19 15:50:00 - [65] - Quote You just broke null. No seriously. Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Random Majere Epsilon Lyr Nulli Secunda 66	Posted - 2013.04.19 16:25:00 - [66] - Quote Its OK OP. Its like writing a novel. Sometimes you need to throw away a lot of written pages before coming up with the final product. Just go back and write something different.
Alx Warlord SUPERNOVA SOCIETY 409	Posted - 2013.04.19 20:56:00 - [67] - Quote I don't know if this is the best option at all... It is a solution, that gives a small fix to the whole situation,.... Before you remove stations you need to provide a place for people to keep their stuff safe, or somewhat safe... for this you need the POS revamp.... Then you need to prevent the actual sov holders to claim space and don't use it, that is the biggest problem... I agree that Outposts and Stations should be removed from null-sec, leaving only destructible stuff... but this cant be done yet. Please read these! > New POS system > New SOV system
dark heartt I Own Four Sheep The Methodical Alliance 104	Posted - 2013.04.20 02:23:00 - [68] - Quote March rabbit wrote: ... and here we see REAL opinion of 0.0-dwellers about "boring SOV", "bring small gang into 0.0" and other things. and this opinion is: DON"T TOUCH MY TIMERS AND SOV-GRINDING! Actually mate, I think it's more a case of this idea of how to do it is terrible.
Tsobai Hashimoto Hard Knocks Inc. 127	Posted - 2013.04.20 18:05:00 - [69] - Quote If you can take out one of the "nerves" or tiny hubs, with a 10-15 man cruiser gang, then I can do it even faster with a 10-15 man bomber gang Congrats, you just turned a massive alliances assets, crammed them into one station and allowed 5 black ops, 10 recons and 40-50 cheap bombers crush your defenses in about, 24hours tops without anyone really able to do anything since we can cloak, move near freely and covert cyno to any system that we need to still beat down you now have even less pvp as its just a bunch of bombers playing grab ass! Always remember that the people will find the path of least resistance, and forming up 10 man squads of T3s to brawl in small scale pvp isnt it
OldWolf69 IR0N. SpaceMonkey's Alliance 59	Posted - 2013.06.30 15:07:00 - [70] - Quote Interesting thread. Basically you want the victory of skill over the numbers. Fair point. Won't coment on many of the things here.Should i? Probably not. But. Making ratters unable to hide should be paired by removing null npc. So it would be imposible for the ratter killers to hide too. There can't be safety just for one side.( Or it can be, isn't it, Fozzy?) Just like removing null local, removing npc null will never happen. Because one would remove ratters, the other the "pro's". Both scenarios would hurt CCP's wallet. And SOV mechanics need change. But a easy SOV mechanic would hurt CCP's wallet too, so we won't see it. Remember, gentlemen, it's lacking logic just when players ask for it, never if CCP wants something.
Qestroy Bio-Tech Research Tribal Band 6	Posted - 2013.07.03 22:17:00 - [71] - Quote ,,, What happens when someone brings a 1500 man sleet split into 100 15 man groups to attack all these "nerves" at once, station becomes vulnerable, you reform up your 100 groups of 15 BS, might lose a few groups maybe, but they are never in one place long, and they are EVERYWHERE, so enemy can't effectively defend nearly enough "nerves" to matter, and now they have the blob at their door'way, same as before... Any fighting that occurs will still mean very little, unless mixed with the tug of war system being thrown around... Also: Realistic estimate of the chance of CCP removing a tonne of stations throughout nullsec at a stroke and just shifting peoples stuff? what would happen to split conselations, only one alliance gets the constelation, what about all the other people in the other alliance who have had their stuff rudely moved to a station that can't access?
Swiftstrike1 Interfector INC. Fade 2 Black 96	Posted - 2013.07.03 23:15:00 - [72] - Quote Having read about 70% of this thread (got bored of put-downs and OP repeating his OP) and not having the slightest bit of experience in sov warfare I can safely conclude: The playerbase doesn't like this idea, hence it's not gonna happen. The only part of the original idea I thought would be worth implementing was that if there is a station (or several) in a system, it (or one of them) should be the sov holding structure instead of a player owned bill-board in space. That just makes more sense to me.
Daniel Plain Science and Trade Institute Caldari State 1259	Posted - 2013.07.04 00:43:00 - [73] - Quote can we also get a load of hispanic gardener npcs who automatically replace all the low hp 'nerves' out of the back of their pickup trucks? "I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings" -MXZF

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