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Devon Weeks
Shapier Industries
Critical-Mass
0
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Posted - 2013.04.27 06:52:00 -
[1] - Quote
This is actually my first post ever in the Eve forums, although I've played off and on for about 3 and a half years. I was reading through the thread with CCP_Fozzie talking about changes to armor tanking to make it more comparable to shield tanking in PvP, and I had a thought. It's possible this idea wouldn't work, and I welcome the vetting of it here.
How about we change the armor penalties from armor plates to something entirely different. How about we change it from mass to just a straight agility (acceleration and turning) reduction? Plates stop affecting mass and just affect ship agility. I mean, the biggest disparity between armor and shield tanking is the ability to dictate range and the sheer burst from the ASB, right? So, turning the drawback to agility would make armor ships less capable of keeping tight, fast orbits (a not insignificant hit to blaster boats or heavy tacklers), but still capable of catching kiting ships with ASBs with good manual piloting skills or an opponent that doesn't feel the need to turn (it does happen on occassion).
I know some people make the case that the sig radius penalty on shield extenders is comparable to the mass penatly on armor plates. I just don't see it that way for one reason. There comes a point where you stop caring about how big your signature radius is and resign yourself to getting hit. There is never a point where you stop caring about getting slower. Plus, in order for an armor ship to catch a kiting enemy, he uses a microwarp drive which essentially equalizes the ships since they now both have their signature radii increased.
So, instead of looking at buffing/nerfing a particular stat amount, why not change the mechanic altogether? Why not just simply refund Armor Honeycombing skill points to players that trained it and move the penalty for plates to another stat like agility? What are your thoughts? |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
132
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 14:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
Where exactly is the balnce?
Armours mass and hence speed reduction is acutally a penaly.
YOur agility penalty is not really a penatly.
First, there are lots of ways to "fix this penalty. Evasive man. 5, sc 5, asc 5, plus there is a base leadership skill taken to 5 that goves a 10% agility bonus not needing any link. Even my combat char learnd basic leadership to gove these natural boosts not needeing a link. since you mentioned MWD...its th mass that limits how to go faster. Navigation 5 about it really short of loki link booster atm, soon the CS's will be better. Its a real penaltyb basic basically, espeically for MWD as there is no 5% per level speed boost like AB.
Flipside to shield side...that sig radiuis you are blowing off is nit easily fixed. Basically they have shiled rig 4/5 to offset restis rigs.
And in the case of the pure shield race, caldari, you may have noticed base speed of many current armour ships is greater than caldari on a simllar ship/. Under current setup this makes sense....you slap on plates. With your idea, your armour ships get the full ehp/hp intended with the plates....and are faster than a caldar boat. Not exactly balanced.
Secondly, you choice of agility is a real siutational penalty. If I am on mixed fleet compositin camp for example....I don't need agility, I need speed. I will have that agile faster tackle to lock down targets. I just need raw straighline speed to rush the target and shoot it. Or lets go BS level. Unless in mach, even in a shield tanked bs like rokh, they are bricks. A 2 X 1600 apoc does not need to deftly orbit a target. Dics/hics/tackles lock em down, it pops them. So again, it jsut needs straightline quartermile in record time speed to close and shoot.
Depending on fleet basically, I can plate down hardcore under your idea and lost agility means nothing to me. Not much of a penalty really. |
Devon Weeks
Shapier Industries
Critical-Mass
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 16:53:00 -
[3] - Quote
Fair point, but isn't sig radius a pretty meaningless penalty as well? It's also situational and negated by the skills (tracking related skills) and mods ( TE and TC) of the other player. And, once you're over cruiser size, who can't hit you already anyway? I agree agility isn't a huge penalty and that it's situational. That's precisely why I think it's analogous to signature radius. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Tribal Band
461
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 21:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Mass doesn't affect max velocity, only agility. Changing the mass penalty to an agility penalty would only affect their ability to bump ships, and with the current way bumping works, the change would be undetectable.
Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Tribal Band
461
|
Posted - 2013.04.27 21:11:00 -
[5] - Quote
Devon Weeks wrote:Fair point, but isn't sig radius a pretty meaningless penalty as well? Sig radius is a minor penalty when you are fighting anything a lot smaller than you, but it makes a big difference against things your size and it's terrible when things bigger than you boost your sig radius.
I can hit a cruiser at 75km in a cormorant using 150mm railguns with spike ammo, while I'm moving perpendicular with my MWD on (orbiting at 75km). But they will be glancing hits. Now say my buddy in a vigil pops the cruiser's sig radius to twice the size, now I am scoring good hits.
Perhaps the strongest need for target painting comes from attack battlecruisers, who can move fast but suffer from poor tracking.
Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Devon Weeks
Shapier Industries
Critical-Mass
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 00:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Quote:Mass doesn't affect max velocity, only agility. Changing the mass penalty to an agility penalty would only affect their ability to bump ships, and with the current way bumping works, the change would be undetectable.
Are you sure? I see my speed drop when adding a plate. |
Devon Weeks
Shapier Industries
Critical-Mass
0
|
Posted - 2013.04.28 00:59:00 -
[7] - Quote
Quote:Sig radius is a minor penalty when you are fighting anything a lot smaller than you, but it makes a big difference against things your size and it's terrible when things bigger than you boost your sig radius.I can hit a cruiser at 75km in a cormorant using 150mm railguns with spike ammo, while I'm moving perpendicular with my MWD on (orbiting at 75km). But they will be glancing hits. Now say my buddy in a vigil pops the cruiser's sig radius to twice the size, now I am scoring good hits.
But, if he is short range fit, he has to bloom his own signature to catch you with a microwarp drive. So, it's a penalty on BOTH ships, the shield kiter AND the armor brawler trying to catch him. That was my point. If both ships have to embrace a sig penalty to have a fight, the sig penalty isn't exclusive to the shield tanker. Therefore, it's rather meaningless. The armor plate/rig penalty is exclusive to the armor ship and is therefore a meaningful penalty. A so-called penalty on a shield ship that an armor ship has to give himself as well to even get in range isn't a shield penalty at all. That logic forces all armor ships to fit to snipe when one armor race is most decidedly designed to brawl. That is why I could see removing the top speed hit on the plates when used with a microwarp drive or afterburner. |
Regolis
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
70
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Posted - 2013.04.28 03:33:00 -
[8] - Quote
From what I've seen of shield and armor repairing is more than a single quick fix issue.
1) There is no medium slot damage module. IE you can't armor stack very well unless you reduce your damage
2)Armor repairing at the end of cycle with a recycle that is atleast 2x if not 3x longer than shield repping.
3)Shield have passive regen.
Not so sure what to say about 1. Balance could be drastically effected by adding mid slot damage mods.
There have been a few decent ideas on making local armor repping better. Like instead of getting one big rep at the end of cycle break it into 5 or 10 smaller reps during the cycle.
I kinda like that shields recharge automatically we could see how maybe adding slow armor and hull regen to the damage controls worked out. That might be a viable way to add slow active hull / armor regen.
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Mole Guy
Xoth Inc
Unclaimed.
76
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 11:21:00 -
[9] - Quote
i think you are way off the point.
problem being that when i push the button for my shield boost, it happens immediately.
if we think electronics, shields are like giant capacitors and they take time to charge. so how can you boost immediately?
armor reppers take nano-bots and pump them into the holes to fill in the gaps. this happens at the end of a cycle. large being 12-15 seconds.
12-15 seconds is HUGE in pvp. a shield tank pumps immediately. if we both are down to 1 hp on our ships and waiting for that last bump to put us over the hill, the armor tanker waits till the end of the cycle when the shield gets it immediately. its a 100% win for the shield guy.
i made the suggestion that since armor "pumps nano-bots". we should get a pumping effect. make it happen every 2-3 seconds. make it a smaller amount though. i dont mind how shields work, but i do mind how armor doesnt work.
instead of gaining 1000 hp every 10 seconds, gaining 200 every 2 would be alot better. or 300 every 3 seconds. it would be more for sustained damage/repair and not burst repair.
same amounts, faster rep time. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
135
|
Posted - 2013.04.29 13:51:00 -
[10] - Quote
Devon Weeks wrote:Quote:Sig radius is a minor penalty when you are fighting anything a lot smaller than you, but it makes a big difference against things your size and it's terrible when things bigger than you boost your sig radius.I can hit a cruiser at 75km in a cormorant using 150mm railguns with spike ammo, while I'm moving perpendicular with my MWD on (orbiting at 75km). But they will be glancing hits. Now say my buddy in a vigil pops the cruiser's sig radius to twice the size, now I am scoring good hits. But, if he is short range fit, he has to bloom his own signature to catch you with a microwarp drive. So, it's a penalty on BOTH ships, the shield kiter AND the armor brawler trying to catch him. That was my point. If both ships have to embrace a sig penalty to have a fight, the sig penalty isn't exclusive to the shield tanker. Therefore, it's rather meaningless. The armor plate/rig penalty is exclusive to the armor ship and is therefore a meaningful penalty. A so-called penalty on a shield ship that an armor ship has to give himself as well to even get in range isn't a shield penalty at all. That logic forces all armor ships to fit to snipe when one armor race is most decidedly designed to brawl. That is why I could see removing the top speed hit on the plates when used with a microwarp drive or afterburner.
Generally you are not running MWD fulltime. Larger ships especially. And apoc or rokh going full burn will have no cap real soon to fire guns. Sig radius comes into play between the mwd bursts.
You are also assuming a mwd fit. Some like AB's on say frigs and t3.
And some weapons are heavily sig radius dependent. If I release a bomb on you/your fleet its effectiveness is heavily based on your sig radius/radii. I can only train CO 5 to boost the bombs bang. After that...my bombs damage relies on how fat your sig radius is. LSE, some resist rigs and its big money big prizes damage over a slim line sig radius armour BS. And I am being nice to the BS pilots, in this example all were smart enough to not ht the mwd on bomb release. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Tribal Band
465
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 04:39:00 -
[11] - Quote
Devon Weeks wrote:Quote:Mass doesn't affect max velocity, only agility. Changing the mass penalty to an agility penalty would only affect their ability to bump ships, and with the current way bumping works, the change would be undetectable. Are you sure? I see my speed drop when adding a plate. No you don't, check again.
I used to think that max velocity was affected by mass. IIRC I thought that the ship fitting screen was telling me that the max velocity was being affected. But upon closer inspection I realized it was something else it was affecting. I'm not sure what I was looking at, but maybe you made the same mistake I did.
Malcanis for CSM 8 |
sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate
Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1031
|
Posted - 2013.04.30 04:47:00 -
[12] - Quote
Zan Shiro wrote:Where exactly is the balnce?
Armour's mass and hence speed reduction is actually a penalty.
YOur agility penalty is not really a penatly.
First, there are lots of ways to "fix this penalty. Evasive man. 5, sc 5, asc 5, plus there is a base leadership skill taken to 5 that goves a 10% agility bonus not needing any link. Even my combat char learnd basic leadership to gove these natural boosts not needeing a link. since you mentioned MWD...its th mass that limits how to go faster. Navigation 5 about it really short of loki link booster atm, soon the CS's will be better. Its a real penalty basically, especially for MWD as there is no 5% per level speed boost like AB.
Flipside to shield side...that sig radiuis you are blowing off is nit easily fixed. Basically they have shiled rig 4/5 to offset restis rigs.
And in the case of the pure shield race, caldari, you may have noticed base speed of many current armour ships is greater than caldari on a simllar ship/. Under current setup this makes sense....you slap on plates. With your idea, your armour ships get the full ehp/hp intended with the plates....and are faster than a caldar boat. Not exactly balanced.
Secondly, your choice of agility is a real situational penalty. If I am on a mixed fleet compositin camp for example....I don't need agility, I need speed. I will have that agile faster tackle to lock down targets. I just need raw straighline speed to rush the target and shoot it. Or lets go BS level. Unless in mach, even in a shield tanked bs like rokh, they are bricks. A 2 X 1600 apoc does not need to deftly orbit a target. Dics/hics/tackles lock em down, it pops them. So again, it jsut needs straightline quartermile in record time speed to close and shoot.
Depending on fleet basically, I can plate down hardcore under your idea and lost agility means nothing to me. Not much of a penalty really.
You want to list all the skills and modules that "fix" speed penalty?
Agility penalty is about as pointless as sig penalty, and just as situational, as you put it.
Standings Improvement Service
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
ExAstra
Echoes of Silence
Kraken.
37
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Posted - 2013.04.30 06:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Reinforced armor plating lowers agility (ability to reach top speed/align) but does not lower top speed.
Trimark Armor Pump Rigs lower top speed but do not affect agility.
HOWEVER, Reinforced armor plates increase mass, which DOES affect top speed when you are using a prop mod. Which is always. The mass addition reduces the speed benefits of the prop mods, and quite heavily sometimes.
Save the drones! |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc
Tribal Band
465
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 08:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
That's true, I hadn't thought of that.
Malcanis for CSM 8 |
Devon Weeks
Shapier Industries
Critical-Mass
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 15:40:00 -
[15] - Quote
Right. I should have clarified top speed with prop. That was my mistake.
Agility is pretty important to Gallente and Amarr brawlers. Often cruiser size and up ships can barely maintain an orbit on a moving target within their optimal, especially with blasters. Adding a straight agility penalty to plates would mean forcing blaster boats and even a number of pulse laser boats to fight a little deeper in their falloff thereby reducing their dps, about as meaningful of a penalty as I can think of that stil allows for ships to have an opportunity to engage. It's something to debate. |
Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
349
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 16:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
+1 to the idea of having armor reps broken up into 2 or 3 second cycle times.
I still think shield will have an advantage in PvP just based on movement being more important than sig radius. Maybe if another weapon took sig radius into account:
Webs for instance are pretty universal and used in both pve and pvp, they could be made to work based on sig radius in terms of both range and move reduction. This would be a powerful tool for the brawlers and bricks, I'm sure CCP Fozzie could find a happy medium for the effect.
Slavery is self choosen, only the unclaimed are not free.
...Book of Reclaiming: Hall of the Goat
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Corey Fumimasa
Kiith Paktu
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
349
|
Posted - 2013.05.01 16:58:00 -
[17] - Quote
As for the straight up agility penalty: The point I guess that concerns me is that this would cause armor tankers to have less GTFO as it takes them even longer to get into warp. Depending on the increase could even start to prevent the cloak/mwd trick from working. So it would mitigate the issue of maintaining tight orbits and top speed, but in so doing would create a big weakness in the more important issue of time to warp.
Slavery is self choosen, only the unclaimed are not free.
...Book of Reclaiming: Hall of the Goat
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