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Requesting a pre-Odyssey and post-Odyssey census.

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Dilbert HighSeed Pirannha Corp 28	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:01:00 - [31] - Quote Look, there are two kinds of people in null that keep getting CCP to hammer high sec. There are the zealots who are bent on destroying high sec as an entity, who truly believe that Eve would be a better game if the high sec players were eradicated from the player base. They believe that null sec play is the only "true" method to play Eve, and view all other players with utter contempt and hatred. Then there are the others, who mouth platitudes like "Eve is an ecosystem", " Eve is a sandbox" , or "We are only interested in balancing the game fairly for all". These are the deceivers who campaign (or have their wives tell them to run and then get massive null blocs to vote for them, and these null blocs would vote for a chimp if told to) to get on the CSM. This 2nd group, once on the CSM, then, behind the scenes, continue to lobby their buddies already working at CCP (tell me, when was the last time CCP hired a dev / game designer who claimed they were essentially a high sec player, and espoused that play style as a valid way to play the game?) to divert more and more of the wealth of the game to the null sec cartels. They do everything they can to get CCP to maintain or create new strangleholds on resources. The ISK raised through these strangleholds then flows through the hands of a very, very small cabal of null sec cartel members, who can then do what they like with the funds, and they can be quite "creative", shall we say. Let's examine the "resource re-balancing" that we just learned about. 227 new R-64 moons are being seeded for the June 4th release. Apparently tech as a chokepoint is dead. But guess what.? New chokepoints will just use the EXISTING MECHANIC. The cartels will very quickly control the new 227 moons and nothing has changed in that regard. Now let's look at ice. A NEW chokepoint was created with the changes to the ice mining mechanic, which allows highly organized groups that cover all TZ's to mine out the newly spawning belts in minutes, and at the same time bumping/ destroying all non-allied ice mining boats from the belts. I wonder what groups have demonstrated the ability to intimidate people away from a resource in order to interdict the supply? In this case, they will soon control the new "oil of Eve", as the goon lead designer stated he wanted ice to be. And lastly, let's examine the wonderfully democratic creation of the ability of null miners to outmine by a MASSIVE margin high sec miners, completely wiping out the need to import low end ores into null sec. So supposedly a new null sec mining industry will be created, and incidentally at the same time wipe out high sec mining income by 33-50% (published goon numbers BTW). Fair enough. Of course, all those mineral have to be refined, likely at Minnie stations. So who gets to control the refine tax on those stations? A very, very small group. The same group that control the moon goo income. Another new income stream that flows through the hands of a very small cabal. The first group, the null sec zealots bent on destroying high sec, they are bad, really bad. But this second group, they are even more dangerous. They are far from stupid. They are smooth. They are great manipulators, speakers, and writers. But their avarice knows no bounds, and they are far more dangerous to high sec, and the overall well-being of the game as a whole. High sec is doomed. By the time the 2014 summer release comes out, high sec will be a wasteland with few people in it being able to earn a decent income, outside of the null sec ice miners and maybe the traders, though Jita will be a shadow of what it is is today as a trade hub.
Ryu Ibarazaki Brave Newbies Inc. 49	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:10:00 - [32] - Quote That was a great read, Dilbert. I'd go to the movie.
James Amril-Kesh 4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance 4796	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:17:00 - [33] - Quote Dilbert HighSeed wrote: 227 new R-64 moons are being seeded for the June 4th release. Apparently tech as a chokepoint is dead. But guess what.? New chokepoints will just use the EXISTING MECHANIC. The cartels will very quickly control the new 227 moons and nothing has changed in that regard. And if you'd actually read any of what we've been saying you'd realize that this is actually something we were trying to avoid. We're not to blame for this.
Dilbert HighSeed Pirannha Corp 29	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:37:00 - [34] - Quote James Amril-Kesh wrote: Dilbert HighSeed wrote: 227 new R-64 moons are being seeded for the June 4th release. Apparently tech as a chokepoint is dead. But guess what.? New chokepoints will just use the EXISTING MECHANIC. The cartels will very quickly control the new 227 moons and nothing has changed in that regard. And if you'd actually read any of what we've been saying you'd realize that this is actually something we were trying to avoid. We're not to blame for this. Yes, I believe you. I am sure that null sec members of the CSM7 lobbied CCP hard not to give them another huge ISK stream. I am equally sure that they they lobbied CCP equally hard to hurry up and wipe out the moon goo mechanic as it stands today and replace it with ring mining. It is quite unfortunate that CCP said it is "hard" to change a static variable defining moon goo output to zero. I also know it is is very hard to add existing products like minerals or even moon goo to existing ores like Arkonor, or create new reactions that require other items...oh wait...
Liz Laser Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 27	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:40:00 - [35] - Quote Ryu Ibarazaki wrote: That was a great read, Dilbert. I'd go to the movie. It is titled "We are the 99%". :-)
Trendon Evenstar GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 180	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:58:00 - [36] - Quote Liz Laser wrote: the player population needs to know if such measures succeed or not in their intent You stay in your area and I'll stay in mine, except when I feel like invading yours how bout that
Liz Laser Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 27	Posted - 2013.04.29 05:59:00 - [37] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Liz Laser wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: You seem to think the intent is to get highseccers to move to nullsec. It isn't. I originally posted that after Malcanis suggested that someone moved my cheese and I should adapt. Being familiar with the book title he is referencing, and from other posts in that thread it is pretty clear that influential people (including those who have served on the CSM) at least hope it will accomplish that. What do you think is the intent? And do you have any objection to the census I suggested? Or are you referring to low end minerals? Increasing 0.0's ability to supply all the low ends it needs from ~0.2% to ~2% is a mathematically large change, I agree, but I venture to suggest that the effect on hi-sec miners won't be as dramatic as you're assuming. Missed this the first time. Null sec had no shortage of available tritium when I was out there. It was swimming in Veldspar and Scordite asteroids. Big rocks that you can mine far longer than in high sec. Sometimes gigantic rocks that can send you bouncing far away if you try to warp to zero. What null-sec was lacking was enough people willing to hang their hulks' asses out in space waiting to get destroyed while they mined an ore that was available in high-sec. Now they can get trit for mining the good stuff (ABC). We're going to be making it SAFER to gather trit in null-sec because it won't hurt as much to lose an occassional ship compared to mining Veldspar in null.
Dave Stark 2989	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:04:00 - [38] - Quote pre odyssey speculation. 7m/hour ice mining. 30m/hour scordite mining. post odyssey projections 40m/hour ice mining 27m/hour pyrox mining. how is high sec being flogged? it's being buffed.
Liz Laser Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 27	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:15:00 - [39] - Quote Trendon Evenstar wrote: Liz Laser wrote: the player population needs to know if such measures succeed or not in their intent You stay in your area and I'll stay in mine, except when I feel like invading yours how bout that Uh, dude, I've probably flown with you. Look at my employment history and consider alliance and coalition relations over those times. as far as my "area", look at my KB. I fly Scorpions in strategic ops.... thus, I've died nearly everywhere. LOL
Andski GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 7718	Posted - 2013.04.29 06:31:00 - [40] - Quote Dilbert HighSeed wrote: words why do you always whine up a storm whenever bot-friendly activities are nerfed mine quotes from my posts at your peril, badposters TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.
Xython Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation 1100	Posted - 2013.04.29 07:16:00 - [41] - Quote Dilbert HighSeed wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: Dilbert HighSeed wrote: 227 new R-64 moons are being seeded for the June 4th release. Apparently tech as a chokepoint is dead. But guess what.? New chokepoints will just use the EXISTING MECHANIC. The cartels will very quickly control the new 227 moons and nothing has changed in that regard. And if you'd actually read any of what we've been saying you'd realize that this is actually something we were trying to avoid. We're not to blame for this. Yes, I believe you. I am sure that null sec members of the CSM7 lobbied CCP hard not to give them another huge ISK stream. Actually, yes. The Mittani used to be a miner before his start of darkness, to abuse a Trope. Fixing tech and nullsec industrialism was one of the things he pushed for as CSM chairman. You literally have no clue what you are talking about.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 8941	Posted - 2013.04.29 07:31:00 - [42] - Quote Liz Laser wrote: Malcanis wrote: Liz Laser wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: You seem to think the intent is to get highseccers to move to nullsec. It isn't. I originally posted that after Malcanis suggested that someone moved my cheese and I should adapt. Being familiar with the book title he is referencing, and from other posts in that thread it is pretty clear that influential people (including those who have served on the CSM) at least hope it will accomplish that. What do you think is the intent? And do you have any objection to the census I suggested? Or are you referring to low end minerals? Increasing 0.0's ability to supply all the low ends it needs from ~0.2% to ~2% is a mathematically large change, I agree, but I venture to suggest that the effect on hi-sec miners won't be as dramatic as you're assuming. Missed this the first time. Null sec had no shortage of available tritium when I was out there. It was swimming in Veldspar and Scordite asteroids. Big rocks that you can mine far longer than in high sec... Yeah, I used to think this also. Here's the thing, though, those big rocks take a long, long time to rebuild back to that size, and 0.0 belts only respawn at 1/3 the rate of hi-sec ones. Actual mineral supply in 0.0 systems is cheifly dictated by anoms, not belts. 1 Kings 12:11
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 8941	Posted - 2013.04.29 07:32:00 - [43] - Quote Dilbert HighSeed wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: Dilbert HighSeed wrote: 227 new R-64 moons are being seeded for the June 4th release. Apparently tech as a chokepoint is dead. But guess what.? New chokepoints will just use the EXISTING MECHANIC. The cartels will very quickly control the new 227 moons and nothing has changed in that regard. And if you'd actually read any of what we've been saying you'd realize that this is actually something we were trying to avoid. We're not to blame for this. Yes, I believe you. I am sure that null sec members of the CSM7 lobbied CCP hard not to give them another huge ISK stream. I am equally sure that they they lobbied CCP equally hard to hurry up and wipe out the moon goo mechanic as it stands today and replace it with ring mining. It is quite unfortunate that CCP said it is "hard" to change a static variable defining moon goo output to zero. I also know it is is very hard to add existing products like minerals or even moon goo to existing ores like Arkonor, or create new reactions that require other items...oh wait... How about for once you back up your paranoid ramblings with some actual evidence? 1 Kings 12:11
Lady Areola Fappington New Order Logistics CODE. 105	Posted - 2013.04.29 07:39:00 - [44] - Quote Malcanis wrote: How about for once you back up your paranoid ramblings with some actual evidence? You should know better Mal, this is EVE-O GD. Who needs actual proof when you can roleplay the crazy guy standing on the street corner screaming about the lizardmen controlling his mind? Don't worry miners, I'm here to help!
Ranger 1 Ranger Corp 4083	Posted - 2013.04.29 13:26:00 - [45] - Quote Lady Areola Fappington wrote: Malcanis wrote: How about for once you back up your paranoid ramblings with some actual evidence? You should know better Mal, this is EVE-O GD. Who needs actual proof when you can roleplay the crazy guy standing on the street corner screaming about the lizardmen controlling his mind? There is a difference between role playing and type casting.... To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base.
Altan Chuluun Echoclone Inc. 0	Posted - 2013.04.29 14:01:00 - [46] - Quote Liz Laser wrote: But it is also my firm belief from a long gaming career you can't make true carebears LIKE PvPand you can't make loners like teamwork. Never have truer words been written. If the incentive to play in hisec is removed most that live there will not move to low or null - they will just leave and take their subscription dollars elsewhere. I'd love to see a census done as suggested. For science.
Liz Laser Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 37	Posted - 2013.04.29 14:59:00 - [47] - Quote Altan Chuluun wrote: Liz Laser wrote: But it is also my firm belief from a long gaming career you can't make true carebears LIKE PvPand you can't make loners like teamwork. Never have truer words been written. If the incentive to play in hisec is removed most that live there will not move to low or null - they will just leave and take their subscription dollars elsewhere. I'd love to see a census done as suggested. For science. While I still agree with what I wrote, the predominant message (quite unfairly summarized for humor's sake) of my opponents in this and the dev blog forum thread summarizes to something like this: Liz, you ignorant **! What did you think would happen when you voted for null-sec CSMs? We wanted stuff, and we're getting stuff. This isn't about flogging high-sec to null sec, we would never do that to our support staff that pays real money to work for us. This is about getting the stuff we want, and this is only the beginning. And just between you and me, Liz, when we finally do** decide to pressgang high-sec, you'll bloody well freaking know it!
Bolow Santosi GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 64	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:07:00 - [48] - Quote Dilbert HighSeed wrote: Yes, I believe you. I am sure that null sec members of the CSM7 lobbied CCP hard not to give them another huge ISK stream. I am equally sure that they they lobbied CCP equally hard to hurry up and wipe out the moon goo mechanic as it stands today and replace it with ring mining. It is quite unfortunate that CCP said it is "hard" to change a static variable defining moon goo output to zero. I also know it is is very hard to add existing products like minerals or even moon goo to existing ores like Arkonor, or create new reactions that require other items...oh wait... Funny story, people warned CCP before Dominion even launched that Tech would be stupid profitable like Dyspro was. These people also happened to live in Nullsec. So 7 expansions and 4 years later it's being balanced after they were warned by the very people who stood to profit from it.
Jenn aSide STK Scientific Initiative Mercenaries 1674	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:08:00 - [49] - Quote Lady Areola Fappington wrote: Malcanis wrote: How about for once you back up your paranoid ramblings with some actual evidence? You should know better Mal, this is EVE-O GD. Who needs actual proof when you can roleplay the crazy guy standing on the street corner screaming about the lizardmen controlling his mind? The problem with your post is that Lizardmen are real and only tinfoil shaped hats can counter their influence. Otherwise i agree :) ,.
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 8948	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:15:00 - [50] - Quote Liz Laser wrote: And just between you and me, Liz, when we finally *do* decide to pressgang high-sec, you'll bloody well freaking know it! Well yes, that's absolutely true. I can think of about 17 more effective ways to "pressgang people into 0.0" than reducing low end minerals down to about 80% of their current historical peak, and increasing ice mining to 40m/hr. Because I will lay down cold hard ISK that neither of those things will have any perceptible difference on the numbers of people in hi-sec. 1 Kings 12:11
Vincent Athena V.I.C.E. 1788	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:16:00 - [51] - Quote Liz Laser wrote: James Amril-Kesh wrote: You seem to think the intent is to get highseccers to move to nullsec. It isn't. I originally posted that after Malcanis suggested that someone moved my cheese and I should adapt. Being familiar with the book title he is referencing, and from other posts in that thread it is pretty clear that influential people (including those who have served on the CSM) at least hope it will accomplish that. What do you think is the intent? And do you have any objection to the census I suggested? I think the intent is to make Null work so those who want to live there, but cannot get the numbers to work, will now be able to live there. There was some old dev post I cannot find that said that. Something like "We are not trying to force people into null. We know there are players who will never leave high sec and we are fine with that. What we want is to help the player who wants to live in low or null but does not because he cannot make the numbers work". Whats wrong with your census: It does not show if a movement to null was due to players being forced out, or because of the release of pent-up demand for Null. Personally, I think all areas of the game should be viable and fun for those who wish to live there. http://vincentoneve.wordpress.com/
I Love Boobies All Hail Boobies 445	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:17:00 - [52] - Quote It's not about getting people moved to nullsec. It's about making the game fair for everyone, balancing it out. I have lived in nullsec, mostly live in high sec, and I can see the imbalances. The people out in nullsec actually have to fight and work to get their own space, and it really doesn't offer much in rewards logistically, meaning the ore and so on. Sure, it's available, but you have atrocious refining rates and so on. They should be rewarded with at least the same capabilities as high sec since they work for their space. removed inappropriate signature - CCP Eterne
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 8950	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:21:00 - [53] - Quote All this kicking and screaming because 0.0 mining and industry will become somewhat less disadvantaged compared to hi-sec is as predictable as it is amusing. Could someone drop me an evemail if anyone in these threads actually comes up with some solid numbers or reasoning as to how, exactly, hi-sec players will be "pressganged" into 0.0? That would be most kind. Thanks in advance, NB: Maundering about "nullsec cabals" "gankers" and "nullbears" do not count as either. Don't message me for those. 1 Kings 12:11
Prince Kobol 726	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:24:00 - [54] - Quote Liz Laser wrote: As far as semi-afk play, if you make all of high-sec fully involving, expect to lose 100,000 alt accounts. When I play fully involving games, I don't need alt accounts. Can you imagine why high-seccers would? Maybe I'm wrong. Before I fell in love with Sovereign warfare, Love the random use of numbers and you love sov warfare... really... I mean Love Sov Warfare Really? Sov warfare.. love Seriously?
Liz Laser Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 38	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:33:00 - [55] - Quote I Love Boobies wrote: It's not about getting people moved to nullsec. It's about making the game fair for everyone, balancing it out. I have lived in nullsec, mostly live in high sec, and I can see the imbalances. The people out in nullsec actually have to fight and work to get their own space, and it really doesn't offer much in rewards logistically, meaning the ore and so on. Sure, it's available, but you have atrocious refining rates and so on. They should be rewarded with at least the same capabilities as high sec since they work for their space. Sure. As soon as high-sec gets moon-goo. :-) ok, just being cheeky there. I'm a sov-warfare fan who started the game as a high-sec industrialist, and when I'm out in null, I too have failed multiple times to make the numbers work. But while I was failing to make the numbers work, my corporations were paying me for all my sov warfare losses with isk derived from moon-goo and some of those corps STILL had enough left over to offer free free carriers to anyone who'd train for them. I know there are adjustments to moon-goo in oddyseey and more in the works, but let's not cry too hard for poor null-sec (as a whole). It might soon be more pleasant to be a null-sec industrialist, and I'll surely give it another try when I develop enough RL leisure to return to null-sec, but you spoke of imbalances, and null-sec moon-goo has historically been the most imbalancing difference between null-sec and high sec. I was kind of ok with letting that imbalance employ high-sec industrialism. Null, DEFINITELY needs something to fight over, though. I'm just not sure that PASSIVE income should be that something. But given human nature... :-)
Varius Xeral Galactic Trade Syndicate 740	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:44:00 - [56] - Quote So have you given up tilting at strawmen yet, or are you going to continue to try to push for an unnecessary response to your misguided view of what is happening here?
Liz Laser Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 38	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:44:00 - [57] - Quote Prince Kobol wrote: Liz Laser wrote: As far as semi-afk play, if you make all of high-sec fully involving, expect to lose 100,000 alt accounts. When I play fully involving games, I don't need alt accounts. Can you imagine why high-seccers would? Maybe I'm wrong. Before I fell in love with Sovereign warfare, Love the random use of numbers and you love sov warfare... really... I mean Love Sov Warfare Really? Sov warfare.. love Seriously? Yes. I find shooting at structures rather calming, sort of like mining, but punctuated by cyno fleets suddenly interrupting you. Given a choice between a roam and shooting structures, I'll choose shooting structures. You're more likely to get a fight, and if you don't, you've at least punished the bastards for their cowardice. That being said, though, the best time I ever had was THUNDERDOME where we had opponents who'd frequently roam us and we'd roam them and we didn't attack each other's structures. But that only works if both sides are more into fighting than grinding to fatten their individual wallets, which isn't teribly common, though with the crazy value of moon-goo it has long been viable for 2 sides to do that.
Liz Laser Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 38	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:52:00 - [58] - Quote Varius Xeral wrote: So have you given up tilting at strawmen yet, or are you going to continue to try to push for an unnecessary response to your misguided view of what is happening here? Even the person I originally wrote that in response to, has agreed he'd be interested in seeing such numbers. But, it is also apparent, today, that there is no huge interest in this from the playerbase. That's fine. I posted to give people a chance to let CCP if they care. So far, only a few do, (unless this suddenly gets noticed by thousands of people stuck at work on Monday). To paraphrase the world famous Mongo: Liz just a pawn in chessboard of life.
Minmatar Citizen160812 The LGBT Last Supper 147	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:52:00 - [59] - Quote Liz Laser wrote: [quote=Setaceous] But it is also my firm belief from a long gaming career you can't make true carebears LIKE PvP and you can't make loners like teamwork. Loners and risk adverse manbabies don't belong here. Who cares where they go or for what reason as long as they get to click a button and receive bacon while making believe they are Capt. Picard they will be happy.
Liz Laser Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State 38	Posted - 2013.04.29 15:55:00 - [60] - Quote Malcanis wrote: All this kicking and screaming because 0.0 mining and industry will become somewhat less disadvantaged compared to hi-sec is as predictable as it is amusing. Could someone drop me an evemail if anyone in these threads actually comes up with some solid numbers or reasoning as to how, exactly, hi-sec players will be "pressganged" into 0.0? That would be most kind. Thanks in advance, NB: Maundering about "nullsec cabals" "gankers" and "nullbears" do not count as either. Don't message me for those. did you miss my preface of: (unfairly summarized for humor value)

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