It would be very easy for CCP to prove me wrong or right and be able to inform the CSM of the changes in player behavior (or lack thereof).....

THIS week, do a census where you note which players are in hi-sec. Measure 10 times including over the weekend. If on any of those censii they are in null or low-sec throw them out of that hi-sec count. Then 90 days after Odyssey do another 10 censii over a week and see how many of those same players get spotted in null. My prediction is it will be a very very very small number and will be due to other factors (like me regaining the leisure time for null-sec).

While I *hope* high-sec will endure and pay their subs, I'm *convinced* that you won't turn them into null-sec players by making high-sec less rewarding, less fun, or less afk-able.

Prove me wrong. You already have the flogging high-sec into null policies soon to be instituted, so just get them to make the measurements and be scientists about it rather than religious zealots about it. Measure your results and throw them in my face if you're right.

While I myself may sound like a zealot in how firmly convinced I am that you can't flog them into null-sec, just remember that *I* am the one asking for the measurements to be taken.

While I am skeptical of what I call flogging high-sec players into null-sec, the CSM, CCP and the player population needs to know if such measures succeed or not in their intent.

You seem to think the intent is to get highseccers to move to nullsec.
It isn't.

You seem to think the intent is to get highseccers to move to nullsec.
It isn't.

What intent?

the post I sliced that from was after Malcanis suggested that someone moved my cheese and I should adapt.

Others in the dev round-up thread also seem to think the intent is to incentivize high-sec players into null-sec, as well as some posters who seem to think it will work.

Indeed. There seem to be a dedicated group of people in all security zones in this game that seem to take any change, minor or major, as a personal attack on them and where they play. So I'm going to leave this piece of wisdom that covers all MMOs for the OP (and people like the OP) - The single guaranteed thing that will always happen in any MMO is that it will change. And if you can't adapt to that change then you will be left behind, like trash in the gutter. In short - Change or Die.

Ok. But what GÇö if any GÇö is the actual intent? You can't really test something that doesn't exist.

Are you suggesting it is just random changes with no intent?

No, I'm suggesting that you're asking for a test without knowing what you're actually testing for.

[quote=Tippia][quote=Liz Laser]Others in the dev round-up thread also seem to think the intent is to incentivize high-sec players into null-sec, as well as some posters who seem to think it will work.

I'd say the intent is to make it actually worthwhile for miner industrialists and especially production industrialists to operate in nullsec, not to get X numbers of players into null or whatever the heck. Currently the majority of nullsec players interested in industry do it in highsec because null industry is just so bad.

So your census is fine if you include that (IE, take into account industrialist alts of null players that currently do industry in high that move their activities back to null, not merely pure highsec industrialists that decide to try out 0.0). So the methodology in that quote is wrong already as they are automatically throwing out people who are currently in nullsec/lowsec on some characters. You'd throw out current nullsec industrialists, not current nullsec players. I'd personally at least be interested in seeing if the nullsec industrialists migrate back to null, however if they don't I might conclude differently than you and say the changes weren't strong enough

And on less scientific matters, providing a worthwhile economic incentive to actually risk your industrial ship in an area of space with no guaranteed NPC reprisal is not "flogging" or "forcing" anyone to move to any area of space. Highsec mining was never intended to be not only the best ISK/effort but also sometimes even the best ISK/hour of mining. So as comfortable as you may have been with the new status quo after rogue drone alloy removal it was never within the spirit of eve, you are not being "forced" anywhere. Aside from actually moving out of highsec you can continue mining at the new rate, swap professions to one of the many still very profitable occupations in highsec such as factory PI, production, trade, incursions, L4s, or even highsec exploration. Heck, scam nullsec players if you really have an axe to grind!

I like to think of it as providing an incentive to nullsec players to stay in nullsec for their harvesting and manufacturing activities.

In my experience it isn't uncommon for nullsec players to have highsec manufacturing or mining alts, despite their affection for nullsec.

It's that broken.

Hmm that makes sense, you seemed fairly detached from it all so I wasn't sure if I should even go that far in my post. Anyways feel free to ignore the last bit, anyone who is actually upset can read the last bit. Enjoy (mostly) winning eve for the next few months!

I originally posted that after Malcanis suggested that someone moved my cheese and I should adapt.

Being familiar with the book title he is referencing, and from other posts in that thread it is pretty clear that influential people (including those who have served on the CSM) at least hope it will accomplish that.

What do *you* think is the intent?

And do you have any objection to the census I suggested?

I like to think of it as providing an incentive to nullsec players to stay in nullsec for their harvesting and manufacturing activities.

It's that broken.

My meaning was that there are very many viable options in hi-sec. I'm not sure why you're reacting so badly to the addition of a few of those options to 0.0

Can you give an example of a hi-sec profession that will no longer be viable with Odessey? The only thing that is being lost is a playstyle, and I for one will not mourn the departure of AFK ice mining. I realise that having to put in a tiny bit of thought, and maybe even engage with a moeity of player interaction will come as a shock to many, and it will initially be perceived as a "nerf", but I'm sure the significantly improved income will help soften the blow.

Or are you referring to low end minerals? Increasing 0.0's ability to supply all the low ends it needs from ~0.2% to ~2% is a mathematically large change, I agree, but I venture to suggest that the effect on hi-sec miners won't be as dramatic as you're assuming.

...?

227 new R-64 moons are being seeded for the June 4th release. Apparently tech as a chokepoint is dead. But guess what.? New chokepoints will just use the EXISTING MECHANIC. The cartels will very quickly control the new 227 moons and nothing has changed in that regard.

And if you'd actually read any of what we've been saying you'd realize that this is actually something we were trying to avoid.
We're not to blame for this.

That was a great read, Dilbert. I'd go to the movie.

the player population needs to know if such measures succeed or not in their intent

Or are you referring to low end minerals? Increasing 0.0's ability to supply all the low ends it needs from ~0.2% to ~2% is a mathematically large change, I agree, but I venture to suggest that the effect on hi-sec miners won't be as dramatic as you're assuming.

You stay in your area and I'll stay in mine, except when I feel like invading yours how bout that

words

Yes, I believe you.
I am sure that null sec members of the CSM7 lobbied CCP hard not to give them another huge ISK stream.

Missed this the first time.

Null sec had no shortage of *available* tritium when I was out there. It was swimming in Veldspar and Scordite asteroids. Big rocks that you can mine far longer than in high sec...

Yes, I believe you.
I am sure that null sec members of the CSM7 lobbied CCP hard not to give them another huge ISK stream.

I am equally sure that they they lobbied CCP equally hard to hurry up and wipe out the moon goo mechanic as it stands today and replace it with ring mining. It is quite unfortunate that CCP said it is "hard" to change a static variable defining moon goo output to zero. I also know it is is very hard to add existing products like minerals or even moon goo to existing ores like Arkonor, or create new reactions that require other items...oh wait...

How about for once you back up your paranoid ramblings with some actual evidence?

You should know better Mal, this is EVE-O GD. Who needs actual proof when you can roleplay the crazy guy standing on the street corner screaming about the lizardmen controlling his mind?

Never have truer words been written.

If the incentive to play in hisec is removed most that live there will not move to low or null - they will just leave and take their subscription dollars elsewhere.

I'd love to see a census done as suggested. For science.

Yes, I believe you.
I am sure that null sec members of the CSM7 lobbied CCP hard not to give them another huge ISK stream.

I am equally sure that they they lobbied CCP equally hard to hurry up and wipe out the moon goo mechanic as it stands today and replace it with ring mining. It is quite unfortunate that CCP said it is "hard" to change a static variable defining moon goo output to zero. I also know it is is very hard to add existing products like minerals or even moon goo to existing ores like Arkonor, or create new reactions that require other items...oh wait...

You should know better Mal, this is EVE-O GD. Who needs actual proof when you can roleplay the crazy guy standing on the street corner screaming about the lizardmen controlling his mind?

And just between you and me, Liz, when we finally *do* decide to pressgang high-sec, you'll bloody well freaking know it!

I originally posted that after Malcanis suggested that someone moved my cheese and I should adapt.

Being familiar with the book title he is referencing, and from other posts in that thread it is pretty clear that influential people (including those who have served on the CSM) at least hope it will accomplish that.

What do *you* think is the intent?

And do you have any objection to the census I suggested?

As far as semi-afk play, if you make all of high-sec fully involving, expect to lose 100,000 alt accounts. When I play fully involving games, I don't need alt accounts. Can you imagine why high-seccers would? Maybe I'm wrong. Before I fell in love with Sovereign warfare,

It's not about getting people moved to nullsec. It's about making the game fair for everyone, balancing it out. I have lived in nullsec, mostly live in high sec, and I can see the imbalances. The people out in nullsec actually have to fight and work to get their own space, and it really doesn't offer much in rewards logistically, meaning the ore and so on. Sure, it's available, but you have atrocious refining rates and so on. They should be rewarded with at least the same capabilities as high sec since they work for their space.

Love the random use of numbers and you love sov warfare... really...

I mean Love Sov Warfare

Really?

Sov warfare.. love

Seriously?

So have you given up tilting at strawmen yet, or are you going to continue to try to push for an unnecessary response to your misguided view of what is happening here?

[quote=Setaceous]
But it is also my firm belief from a long gaming career you can't make true carebears LIKE PvP and you can't make loners like teamwork.

All this kicking and screaming because 0.0 mining and industry will become somewhat less disadvantaged compared to hi-sec is as predictable as it is amusing. Could someone drop me an evemail if anyone in these threads actually comes up with some solid numbers or reasoning as to how, exactly, hi-sec players will be "pressganged" into 0.0? That would be most kind.


Thanks in advance,


NB: Maundering about "nullsec cabals" "gankers" and "nullbears" do not count as either. Don't message me for those.

Ice moved from High Sec belts into High Sec anomalies; obvious ploy to get ice miners into Low Sec?




Heh, the last few days the headlines practically write themselves.

The null-sec industrialists I saw that did seem to be making it, while I was failing to make a profit in null, did seem to be those with jump ships who had established their logistics network.

That group often seemed to include those who seemed to have had a finger in the available moon-goo pie, which meant they also had the financial werewithal to withstand temporary competition, shortages, and other inconveniences.

Nullsec industry will never be like highsec industry do to the inherent risk and logistics issues and the limited market. I do some industry in nullsec, but to deal with the issues around it I have to diversify into planet goo and playing the markets.

Nullsec industry will never be like highsec industry do to the inherent risk and logistics issues and the limited market. I do some industry in nullsec, but to deal with the issues around it I have to diversify into planet goo and playing the markets.

A thought experiment: what if hi-sec stations charged 50k ISK per hour for use? What if they charged 100k/hr? 1M/hr? Surely there is some finite slot cost point at which it becomes worth the overhead of producing in a 0.0 station with no direct slot use charge?