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Adelphie
Paradox Collective
7
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Posted - 2011.10.18 22:54:00 -
[1] - Quote
Rather than another whine thread about nerfing highsec I thought I'd post something with the aim of being constructive and take a look at what can be done to return nullsec to its glory days. I posted a similar comment recently, but thought it would be good to start a new thread to gather ideas of new features to entice people to null.
As a solo/small gang pvper I've noticed that nullsec has become rather stagnant over the past year or so, a lot of the old sov skirmishes are diminishing as people are seemingly content with what they have, and the footholds in 0.0 are too deeply entrenched to allow newer corps/alliances to establish themselves. People looking beyond empire are seemingly choosing to reside in WH space rather than null due to the low barriers to entry, unique gameplay and profitability so the landscape of null is not changing.
It's my opinion that currently the majority of eve stay in highsec because it is convenient, more sociable and easier to get into than nullsec with enough the features to keep people occupied and having fun. ItGÇÖs possible for the average player to make enough isk in highsec to buy all the ships required relatively easily, so even the more expensive ships are easily accessible. I'm definitely not in the camp of "nerfing" highsec - this will just **** off existing residents and will not bring anything new to the game, but there needs to be a reason to explore other areas of the sandbox GÇô currently CCP does not offer enough of a reason.
To entice players [back] into null there needs to be a big carrot and not a stick. This carrot should be unique, easy to get into and most importantly it should be fun. The problem is I have no idea what that carrot should be because I still happy out in null .
So my question to non-null sec players - What keeps you out of null, and what features would you like to see which might entice you to venture out here?
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Adelphie
Paradox Collective
7
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Posted - 2011.10.18 23:18:00 -
[2] - Quote
KaarBaak wrote:Not to be flip or anything but my answer would be: "nothing." My game is in high sec. I've been playing for three years and have had short ventures into null and low, but I found myself choosing to not play when I had time while living in those areas. I don't care for CTAs, abrasive FCs, rules about when I can and cannot do non-corp/alliance activities. I don't care for politics and peoples' hurt feelings causing me to PvP. I don't care for mandatory operations and rules about who I can and cannot sell my stuff to or buy from. I'm comfortable in high sec. I like highsec Eve. I may try out some WH stuff, but highsec is just what I prefer. The changes that would lead me to consider null/low would break those areas for the players that like it. I'm happy with Eve. I'm not trying to force people into high sec. Why do nullsec people feel the need to force/encourage people to play their game? If it's just a matter of too much space and/or not enough players, suggest CCP shutdown 25% of nullsec and stir things up. But I'll just move on to a different game before I'll move back out to null. That's meant in a "meh...it's just a game" kinda way...not trying to be confrontational or anything (hence my non-null personality  )
That's a valid reason to be honest - in exactly the same way that I'm happy in nullsec and a massive change would be required to get me into highsec. I guess the difference is that the number of players in my boat are dwindling, whilst highsec is (from an outsiders perspective) getting stronger - or at best stable.
The comments on why you left null are interesting - and I doubt you are the first (or last) pilot to leave null due to alliance with too many CTAs, and a constant need to pvp. I've been a part of alliances with abbrasive FCs, and whilst my game is almost 100% pvp I think that one of the major problems of nullsec is that major alliances seem to favour the ability of a pilot to CTA and PVP much more highly than the ability to add to an alliance through industry. This is partly through the mechanics of the game which mean that number and firepower will ultimately outfavour tactics and industry. |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:26:00 -
[3] - Quote
Hershman wrote:Simple. There is no consideration for casual players in null sec. I can be busy and not login for weeks at a time. The sov environment can change very quickly and is always flowing. I some people would rather not log in and find out your assets are trapped in a station someone else took.
I agree that the risk of sov changes and instability are a good reason to be retisent about living in null.
It would be interesting to think about what changes could be made to accomodate this. I remeber CCP mentioning somehwere that they were looking to introduce "habitats" or something like, which would be semi-perminent homes for small groups of players and harder to remove. I think that this would be a good change and encourage more people to at least try nullsec |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.18 23:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Simetraz wrote:I wil make this real simple.
High-sec is for casual game play.
0.0 is NOT casual game play.
You want to repopulate 0.0
Go talk to your friends who are playing other games and get them to join you in 0.0.
It's not real simple.
My friends playing other games will not join me in 0.0 because there is currently not reason to.
0.0 is not for casual play, and this is its biggest problem - in my opinion there needs to be a bit of a rethink of how to change this. |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
7
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Posted - 2011.10.18 23:55:00 -
[5] - Quote
Headerman wrote:It's pretty simple IMO.
Just add more NPC regions with a high sec gate in them. Would be a good trainign ground for new comers and corps, then they can buy up ships and POSs etc and go get a system of their own
I think one of the greatest assets to eve for those who remember it was CVA controlled NRDS nullsec. This allowed me to make a relatively friendly transition into 0.0 whilst still having the adrenaline/browntrouser time of reds showing up in local. For those not in the know in days gone by the CVA alliance opened up the providence region to anyone who wanted to come, providing they were not hostile to the locals.
I personally made the transition from highsec to lowsec through the Not Red Don't Shoot system, and it allowed me to find pilots I liked to fly with, and ultimately form my own alliance and take space for ourselves.
The problem is there is no "alliance incubator" in eve anymore - so it would be interesting to understand what mechanics could be engineered to make this a reality again. |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
7
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Posted - 2011.10.18 23:59:00 -
[6] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Somewhere there is an Eve player tied up in the closet, struggling to break free while some nice person is posting on the forums with his account....
I take it you've been on the tail end of my missiles/smack  . I only do it because I am lonely - I need 0.0 friends. |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
11
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Posted - 2011.10.19 01:24:00 -
[7] - Quote
kiwis-can-fly wrote: Btw: Go the mighty All Blacks(nz rugby team)
Derailing the thread a little - but it will be a sad day for sport if you don't win the match |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
14
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Posted - 2011.10.19 20:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Some really good discussion so far of what's keeping people out of null.
The major frustrations seem to be:
- Lack of things for the casual gamer to participate in
- Lack of accessibility outside of major alliances
- Failure to give industrials a meaningful task
The thing this thread has less of is solutions to these problems - what features could CCP implement to improve the above? |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
18
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Posted - 2011.10.20 20:40:00 -
[9] - Quote
Thanks for your replies so far - I'm glad that this has turned into a constructive thread.
I was thinking back to why I first went to nullsec and why I stayed there. I apologise in advance that there is a long rambling bit of nostalgia before I get to my point.
When I was only a couple of months old I found myself in my newly purchased Caracal which I barely had the skills to fly - but I had aspirations. I didn't want to just fly a ****** t1 fit ship, I wanted to strand out from the crowd - I wanted to fit my ship in a way that most players could only dream about... I wanted a t2 fit Caracal.
This is something that I couldn't afford running my missions alone , so I needed a new source of income. I'd heard about the riches of nulsec so decided to take a risk and fly out to an area that the map said was not populated. I traveled through lowsec and took my first jump to null... but there was a problem. A throax and a a kestrel were waiting for me. I held cloak and my heart started pounding eventually I decided to just try and warp and to my surprise I didn't get caught. I was, however, shaking with adrenaline. A game had never done that to me before
I got to the system I wanted to find and eventually after doing some ratting in this system I found a Dread Guristas Spawn. The loot fairy was kind to me, so not only could I afford to T2 fit my caracal, I could also afford a drake to the envy of my corpies. Those who know me in game will realise that this was the start of quite a special relationship...
Anyway - to my point. When I began the riches of null allowed me to play the game in a way I wouldn't have been able to otherwise, and the thrill of taking risks kept me there.
At the moment the isk available to in hisec has increased over the past few years, whilst the price of ships and mods has fallen dramatically. This means that the levels of isk required for even faction ships are within reach of the average highsec player without too much creativity or risk, which in my opinion should not be the way it is (which I know a lot of people will disagree with).
Now making stuff more expensive on its own won't work - it has to be done in conjunction with making lowsec more accessible, and there's been some excellent suggestions in this thread of how to do this. My personal idea would be to increase the number of WH from empire to null about 10 fold, which would make nulsec more accessible and camping harder, although I haven't thought this through very much.
It's also important to note that the disparity in isk between null and highsec isn't an issue in my opinion - There is more than enough isk in null for those who know where to look. The issue is that the average player simply doesn't need the level of income it yields. |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
19
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Posted - 2011.10.21 21:35:00 -
[10] - Quote
So people are tired of having superpowers claiming space that isn't used.
Would it work then to have the cost of claiming Sov invsersly proportional to the activity in a system?
Have an extremely high base cost of sov, which is quickly reduced by having active pilots, rats killed and ore mined. Unused sov should be very expensive to maintain, whereas heavily utilised space should be close to free.
Any thoughts? |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
20
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Posted - 2011.10.21 22:20:00 -
[11] - Quote
Caldari Acolyte wrote:Bust up these huge coalitions by limiting Alliance sizes and limit how many can be set to Blue by Alliances, then you'll see dramatic changes in null.................real change. let null burn for a bit.
This is good in theory but not practice as it's too easy to get around.
Someone else said it earlier "Turn corp tickers on overview lads, don't shoot xxx"
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Adelphie
Paradox Collective
20
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Posted - 2011.10.21 22:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Xpaulusx wrote:Caldari Acolyte wrote:Bust up these huge coalitions by limiting Alliance sizes and limit how many can be set to Blue by Alliances, then you'll see dramatic changes in null.................real change. let null burn for a bit. Null shouldn't be a bluefest like it is now. Exactly what needs to be done. CCP are you listening?
Can't tell if sarcasm mode was on there
I think it's clear that something needs to be done to make large entities less appealing, but putting artificial constraints just won't work as they're too easy to game.
See the post I made earlier about making unused sov more expensive - This would compact large alliances into smaller areas, which will cause backbiting and bitiching and naturally breakdown powerblocs, whilst opening the door to new alliances to claim space.
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Adelphie
Paradox Collective
20
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Posted - 2011.10.22 10:52:00 -
[13] - Quote
Thanks for the suggestions so far. I've updated the OP with some of the frustrations/changes. Happy to see CCP Soundwave giving suggestions on changes which might take place - and it would be great if CCP comments kept on coming.
I firmly believe that we, the players, hold the knowledge and key of how to make this game better - so let's keep this thread going. You never know we might actually get listened to  |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
26
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Posted - 2011.10.24 19:31:00 -
[14] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:KaarBaak wrote:Not to be flip or anything but my answer would be: "nothing." My game is in high sec. I've been playing for three years and have had short ventures into null and low, but I found myself choosing to not play when I had time while living in those areas. I don't care for CTAs, abrasive FCs, rules about when I can and cannot do non-corp/alliance activities. I don't care for politics and peoples' hurt feelings causing me to PvP. I don't care for mandatory operations and rules about who I can and cannot sell my stuff to or buy from. I'm comfortable in high sec. I like highsec Eve. I may try out some WH stuff, but highsec is just what I prefer. The changes that would lead me to consider null/low would break those areas for the players that like it.I'm happy with Eve. I'm not trying to force people into high sec. Why do nullsec people feel the need to force/encourage people to play their game? If it's just a matter of too much space and/or not enough players, suggest CCP shutdown 25% of nullsec and stir things up. But I'll just move on to a different game before I'll move back out to null. That's meant in a "meh...it's just a game" kinda way...not trying to be confrontational or anything (hence my non-null personality ) quoting by far and away the most liked answer in the thread so you can add something to the OP about it, in case you forget or accidently ignore it.
Fair point. I've not put it on to date, as it doesn't put forward any new suggestions, but I'll add something to keep you happy |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
27
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Posted - 2011.10.25 11:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
betoli wrote:March rabbit wrote:Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Edit: I also suspect there is a lack of organisation. Surely they have fleets with PVPers and ratters, who could warp to the rescue quickly? Systems don't have hundreds of ways in and why not bait those cloakers out, have some people just a gate away.
you forgot we speak about game here....  almost noone will spend their time like in RL job to protect you... We play for fun. this means: 1. Noone will stay for hours on gates or in belt just to make you mining safer 2. People will try to rescue you if you are attacked 3. You can die before anyone even will notice you were attacked  This mechanic is OK. That your friends can't be arsed is just fine, CCP cannot fix your friends. The thing that is not fine, is the fact that mining is uncompetitive with other stuff to the point that you cannot cover a) ship losses or b) pay a protection force. The economy is thus unbalanced, and the reasons have already been stated. - non mining mineral sources in the game - botting remove those and the economics of mining self balance, because its a supply/demand economy. Adding a slightly more robust barge would be a nice tweak, but it isn't the structural problem. Mining needs love, but I do not think CCP are brave enough to make the changes that would place economics in the hands of (actual human) miners, worse than that I don't think the player base is either - they are happy with the current price of ships.
Both of these points are pretty sound.
The only thing duller than mining (imo) is watching people mine - so it will be dificult to motivate people to do that without significant rewards, which with the current state of null mining will just never happen.
In empire Concord offer this service for free, so to be able to replicate something close to these conditions in null players need to be incentivised to do so...
This would also fix the game for people like me because I know I'd be more likely to get a fight in a belt rather than ganking a hulk - which whilst satisfying is nowhere near as good as a "gf".
Adel
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Adelphie
Paradox Collective
27
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Posted - 2011.10.25 11:10:00 -
[16] - Quote
Renan Ruivo wrote:
Update your "suggestions" tree with links to the OP's you are refering to. I would love to read the reasoning behind making people appear 150km from a gate...
They're somewhere in this big old thread....
I think the rationale was that people feel that they cannot even get into null due to the gate camps, so something which made players harder to catch on gates was a suggestion.
By putting it in the OP i'm not saying it's a good one, merely a suggested one |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
27
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Posted - 2011.10.25 11:43:00 -
[17] - Quote
March rabbit wrote:
Real problem of 0.0: too low risk for rewards you get there. That's why goons plag in empire (too much money and too low fun in 0.0), that's why bots, that's why shiny ships with deadspace modules even for ratting.....
Not sure I fully agree with this one - I think that the risk versus reward of certain solo activities is not quite right..
Plexing: Far too easy not to get caught for a high reward: New ships like t3s have been introduced to make plexing easier at a relatively low cost (can make the cost of a tengu back in 1 good plex).
Anoms: Again, Sanctum runners are not at as much risk as many people think, but the isk isn't wildly better than lvl4's
Mining: Royally Screwed - not much more to say.
Manufacturing - See above
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Adelphie
Paradox Collective
27
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Posted - 2011.10.25 12:08:00 -
[18] - Quote
betoli wrote:
An expensive HULK has around what 22K EHP? So it only has around 45 seconds survivability against anything cruiser class. Is that enough for the most expensive tankable option? Whats a realistic time for a corpmate pissing about somewhere in the system to arrive??
That's a reasonable reply actually - How can you expect protection if you won't surive long enough for it to arrive?
How about this for a back of a cigarette packet idea - Industry upgrades give big tank buffs to mining barges - Therefore making them able to tank tackling frigates, and survive small gang/solo players long enough for backup to arrive.
Edit - Apparently CCP doesn't like english slang. *** changed to cigarette... |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
33
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Posted - 2011.10.26 08:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
That's a great post linked - When I have a minute I will add some of the suggestions to the OP.
Read this link people - the man has sense. |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
36
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Posted - 2011.11.05 10:13:00 -
[20] - Quote
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:Malcanis wrote:Well all I will say with respect to that (and to your sig) is that I take a different view of the matter, and that anyone who agrees with me might wish to read & respond to my manifesto. That is the most disturbing thread that I have read on these forums. Hint: *Boom* Goonswarm support. That should give you a "little" warning.
I vehemently disagree with you here.
Mal's post to me, is the most constructive way of making the play-style of null more accessible to all without forcing it or ramming it down peoples throats.
The fact both goons and non-goons like the post is testament to how it could work for all.
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Adelphie
Paradox Collective
40
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Posted - 2011.12.10 00:28:00 -
[21] - Quote
Sorry for leaving this thread unloved - just resubbed for crucible!
I'll update the OP when I get a chance. |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
40
|
Posted - 2011.12.10 00:32:00 -
[22] - Quote
While we're on this topic - I've also run a little experiment since I've been back.
I've been trying to give away access to nullsec - with no rent, free space, easy access to stations, empire etc. and a non-camped route. I thought as these were peoples main gripes about null I'd have people biting my hand off, but alas it's more difficult to give away than an internet spaceship nerd's virginity! Drop me a convo if you know anyone who is interesed |
Adelphie
Paradox Collective
41
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Posted - 2011.12.13 13:51:00 -
[23] - Quote
J'Poll wrote:Adelphie wrote:I take it you've been on the tail end of my missiles/smack . I only do it because I am lonely - I need 0.0 friends. To be honost, you don't live in null-sec, you live in low-sec and roam through null-sec. So what do you want to live in null-sec. Can't be the PvP as you are only after ganks on lone ships, every time you see a decent fleet with your noob-scouts you go back to your low-sec base. BTW, nice that you war-decced Solar, should see some good fights from that. *This is in no way an attempt to smack-talk you Adelphie, I like our non-friendly relations, keeps us alert* Kind regards and good luck in your future PvP, J'Poll
I'd prefer if you kept in game grievances out of this thread... however Whilst having a little dig you've pretty much reinforced most of the points that people have been making in here. Nullsec is not as scary as one would be led to believe.
Currently my corp is:
- 28 man (which includes a fair few alts).
- A further 38 blues.
- We live, and have lived, one jump from null for a number of years, and pass freely without fear of gatecamps or getting bbqwtfpwnd.
- We are free to plex in the area, as the owners don't use or protect it, as with the majority of null.
- I spend the majority of my time flying solo, in a drake, with no scouts - and die rather less than you might imagine.
- I look for, and enjoy gfs, but ganking people is what puts the drakes in the hanger.
- We regularly engage much larger gangs for "lulz", but rarely lose because tactics usually outdo numbers - Our Killboard does the talking on this.
If our corp can do this - then so can you. |
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