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GrandFathered BP COPIES>>> NO CCP

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Nemi Lethal	Posted - 2003.08.01 17:22:00 - [1] Edited by: Nemi Lethal on 01/08/2003 17:29:01 Edited by: Nemi Lethal on 01/08/2003 17:26:10 BAD GAME COMPANY! Do Not GrandFather a DAMN THING. You are right there on the edge of doing something great to improve the economy, but you look as if your going to grand father old bp copies? WHY??? Dont be afraid to ****es a few hundred people off. Grand Fathering the bp copies is just plain stupid, Give them 10 runs and be done with it. Go ahead tear me limb from limb now, but grand fathering these bp copies wouldn't solve anything the market is allready over saturated. You wont help anything if you retain unlimited production runs on the old bp copies, the market will still stay the same, i do not see the game population exsploding at the moment so the same people who had the old bp copies are still gonna be selling the same stuff. Bad Game Company BAD! /em wags finger
MrPops	Posted - 2003.08.01 17:33:00 - [2] Did your head get hit with the nerf bat? The upcoming change to BP's is not the holy grail for the economy. So keep hoping for another "fix it all" solution. "The human species suffers from a dimensional limitation. They are not able to understand that matter and mind are just one aspect of something more fundamental. We must strive to expand our perspective so we can see what our true reality is." Deep toughts by Mr.Pops, while consuming large quantities of Blue Pill and staring at the EVE gate in Genesis.
Virulence	Posted - 2003.08.01 17:35:00 - [3] theres this thing that the world revolves around. its called business. your ignorance of the basic fundamentals of business astounds me. live and learn. shadows and dust
Nemi Lethal	Posted - 2003.08.01 17:36:00 - [4] It never made sense to have a BP then be able to copy it as much as you want to while having the copy work almost as well as the original, that was a mess up onthere part from day one, They should just right the entire situation, take a stand and do the right thing, The game would be alot better if they just hit the reset button.
Nemi Lethal	Posted - 2003.08.01 17:43:00 - [5] I understand buisness completely, You had a product, but the entire galaxy sells the exact same product. Period There is no variation between a highly skilled manufacturer or a inept one, Unlimited Knowledge of how to make the same product distributed all over the place, because a corp had bought and original and instead of holding on to there Original and being the Sole producer, decided to quickly cash in and make as many bp's as possible thus destroying any type of competitive edge they would have had inside the environment. Granted mineral efficiency was put in place to increase profits, but it wouldnt matter if someone was selling the exact same product, the customer would always buy the lowest priced one reguardless of who it was from. There for everybody under cut everybody and Boom only thing you could truely make any profit off of would be the absolute best cruiser's and Battle ship's. reduce the amount of people who can make these items and you get a more competitive market place, Add the difference in "QUALITY" higher quality coming from higher skilled manufacturers' and you get a NAME brand, Somethign people would PAY extra TO OBTAIN.
Singular	Posted - 2003.08.01 18:04:00 - [6] lol, I dont think they intended to fix the "MOA" selling economy. I think this is intended to fix the "MOA II" selling economy. Im Yo Huckleberreh
Alpha Centauri	Posted - 2003.08.01 18:17:00 - [7] heh Nemi you will be playing this game all on your own along with the other greedy idiots.
Nemi Lethal	Posted - 2003.08.01 18:19:00 - [8] Iam far from greedy
Alpha Centauri	Posted - 2003.08.01 18:22:00 - [9] then why attempt to destroy a gamers time and effort, have you any idea what the implications are on this nerf? HAVE YOU ANY IDEA HOW ANNOYED PEOPLE WILL BE?
Laarz Kaledon	Posted - 2003.08.01 18:27:00 - [10] I think the point would be to grandfather the tech I items, then there will be 4 levels of tech that would be so called "fixed". There will be a point where nobody even uses the old tech I items, so who cares if it's grandfathered.
Daesdemona	Posted - 2003.08.01 18:28:00 - [11] I AM GREEEDY, GIMME A COOKIE NOW!!!!! GIMEM ALL YOUR COOKIES!!!!! All your cookies are belong to me ----------------------------------------------- Bart: "Do you even have a job any more?" Homer: "I think its obvious that I Don't" -----------------------------------------------
Hottie	Posted - 2003.08.01 19:00:00 - [12] The blueprint original/blueprint copy changes that are being tested now are certainly big changes. Because blueprints are the most expensive item in the game and many corps have invested huge sums of money/time in either originals or copies I'm sure we'll have a lot of fallout from any changes to the current system. Methinks CCP is trying to "protect" the investment people have made in blueprint copies by grandfathering them as they are. I'm sure many people will freak-out if their cruiser copies can now only produce 15 units and bships 10. Copy owners are probably saying yeah if I had know it was going to get nerf'd then I wouldn't have purchased a copy...etc. So, the grandfathering concept comes along to protect copy owners. But there is another side to this too. What about original owners? If you own an original you will only be able to produce nerf'd blueprint copies. Basically original blueprint owners will also be hit because there new copies won't be able to compete against existing grandfathered copies. What will happen who knows but I'd guess grandfathered copies will go up in value whereas new copies will be worth much less. There will then be three tiers of blueprints in Eve: original, grandfathered copies, and nerf'd copies. So what is being done to protect original owners? Shouldn't there be grandfathered originals then? I.e., originals that can still produce unnerf'd copies to protect original owners too? That is, having known that originals wouldn't be able to produce copies that are as good as any other copy on the third market then maybe people wouldn't have spent all the money on the original knowing that it would be nerf'd going foward. So will originals be protected/grandfathered along the same lines as copies? In the end I suggest that the concept of grandfathering should be all or none. Grandfather both originals and copies such that they perform as they do today (originals produce copies that can produce unlimited units and copies can still produce unlimited units). Or, grandfather neither. Grandfathering neither will screw everybody equally. Grandfathering copies screws original owners. Grandfather both doesn't screw anybody. And what do we expect to happen with these changes? There are so many copies out there now that grandfathering copies will probably cause zero effect on the economy. Nerf'ing them will **** people off but probably have an economic impact. Also, what about just saying what's done is done and only implementing the production limit concept on new tech level 2 blueprints? Everyone keeps saying tech level 2 will solve the current economy issues so why not use it to solve the blueprint copy issue too. Why mess with the single most expensive investments people have in the game thus far. CCP, if you're out there, please take your time on really thinking this one through. The outcome of this change will likely rock the Eve world. Both the ingame impact and also player opinion on how the "rules of the game" are all of a sudden turned on their head by these types of changes. My vote would be to grandfather nothing.
Kyn Aerie	Posted - 2003.08.01 19:12:00 - [13] In my view, bp copies should all be given a production limit. It's the only way to clear the market and increase the demand for bp's and copies. It'll also increase demand for the products these copies produce since fewer people would be manufacturing them. I was reading a developer statement on the subject. Basically, they said those that make the most money and are gaming at the very pinnacle of EVE's gaming experience should expect to be hit the hardest by any changes. Those people are making money on EVE as it exists now. As the game changes, though, they have the most resources to grow, adapt to, and overcome the changes as well. Yes, it may upset some (or alot) but the game needs to change. If you're only making money from your BP's you may want to look at other markets. They may be less profitable, but the growth curve for larger corps with more liquid assets is steeper than the growth curve for newbs right now anyway.
Shock	Posted - 2003.08.01 19:17:00 - [14] putting the limit for already existent copies will not only make it unfair beyond limits for all people joining in the future, it will also practically solve nothing since the market is very saturated anyway. Just look on the trade channel and boards. The copies are almost given away. Most Cruiser prints are going between 10 and 30 million, depending on the type of cruiser and the mineral efficiency. For 300 ships this means 33 to 100k. Most BYOM deals I've seen cost you about 500k to 1M extra. So all cruiser owners should not complain too much here if it's set to 300. They will still have made a bood deal, which has only been better if they have build more ships before the patch. --- soonÖ
ProphetGuru	Posted - 2003.08.01 19:29:00 - [15] Hmmm. All consumables and modules I manufacture, are for internal or personal use. Many of the copies I bought for this task, cost millions of isk. I therefore, contributed to the economy. Some would suggest that if u don't buy it off the market, you are not contributing, when in fact, this is not accurate. The movement of resources, isk, and bartering, all move the economy. Basically, what the original poster is saying, is I should have to buy ammo off the market if I want any, in effect, let's FORCE people to make the manufacturing characters in the game more profitable. Hmm, who is going to deliver the 60,000 rounds of AM L I need a day, at a fair price, deep in 0.0, running blockades along the way? NOONE. And the day I have to jump 47 timees to pickup 2400rds of ammo, will be the day I cancel my sub. A nerf on existing bp copies is no more then a welfare handout to manu char's who have little imagination or business sense. You know, the guys who sit in 1.0 space and can't figure out why noone is buying their L ammo... must be cuz of bp's huh? Evolution..... Just when you thought you were winning.
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.08.01 19:43:00 - [16] BP copies are not the only cause of the marcet collapse, but they are a big part of it (the other part are IMO the production times, which are way to fast). Look at the market - the only ones which are still halfway profitable are the BS and BP copy ones. And BS is in decline too, since more and more BS copies are released into the game. If all current copies will be grandfathered the market will just continue to collapse. But what I am saying - not grandfathering existing copies would mean that people would loose something- That cannot be, we can only make changes if everyone gains something. And the good of some goes over the good of many. free speech not allowed here
Dragon Emperor	Posted - 2003.08.01 19:46:00 - [17] //It never made sense to have a BP then be able to copy it as much as you want to while having the copy work almost as well as the original,// lol, it makes PERFECT sense..... how many times you think you can burn a cd contains bp? unlimited right?..... how many times you can use that cd to produce? unlimited unless you care about license right?...... so what's non-sense thing?
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.08.01 19:50:00 - [18] The only thing that these changes will do is slow the market decay. The original author claims to know business. Then he should have by now done at least a cursory investigation of the market and discovered that the demand simply isn't there. Or here's the best way to get the point across. Everyone that thinks this change is great just do 1 simple thing: Post how often you replace your ship. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Ana Khouri	Posted - 2003.08.01 19:53:00 - [19] And why isn't the demand there? Because there are too many producers. And why are the too many producers? Because you can manufactor high lvl items too easily. And why can you do that? Because you can buy a BP copy for 20% of the originals price. free speech not allowed here
Mission	Posted - 2003.08.01 19:53:00 - [20] theres 3pages already on this subject here:- http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=23095 Why nerf all BPCs that have already been made? Just do what you want with copies that are made in the future. Who will it hurt if you do that? All it will do if they nerf ALL of them is make people leave. (e.g. the 350mil BS-BPC i bought last week with all the cash i have saved up from day one), and i'm sure other people are in the same boat. The economy hasn't even kicked off properly yet... grandfathering the ones now wil make negligible difference except it will keep more people in the game. If someone can give a proper reason why not to grandfather the old BPs then post it. They will still become obselete when people start to sell there battleships at minimal profit, and their copies haven't been researched. Read the other thread for a more mixed view, and post there so we can keep the discussion together.
Mission	Posted - 2003.08.01 20:20:00 - [21] ok, so nerf the copying process.. but not the ones that have already been made. More people will be joining the game, so there will be more demand... atm most people can only just afford a cruiser, so the high demand for BSs hasn't started.... BSs are mainly cheap because people can't afford them. I bet when lots of people are able to afford them the suppliers will not be able to keep up with the demand due to the massive amount of resources needed (apart from uber organized corps).
Jash Illian	Posted - 2003.08.01 21:23:00 - [22] Quote: And why isn't the demand there? Because there are too many producers. And why are the too many producers? Because you can manufactor high lvl items too easily. And why can you do that? Because you can buy a BP copy for 20% of the originals price. And that 80% savings slows people down how much? Not bloody much for anyone that's determined. The demand isn't there because the attrition isn't there. People make more than enough isk easily to purchase blueprint originals. Isk is the poorest way to demotivate someone from doing something. I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather *** my enemy.- Rohann Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!*- Lallante
Rhed	Posted - 2003.08.01 21:35:00 - [23] Obviously, the grandfathered copies would have a distinct advantage over the nerfed copies in that they wouldn't run out, regardless how little you'd make from the copy, you still would never have to buy another one. That gives current members an unfair advantage over the people who join the game after the nerf. Personally, I wouldn't spend all my money on an item that I know is on the conveyor belt towards change. It's speculation, and whoever does that in this case has just lost out. Sorry, bout your luck. If you can't handle the change, then you can't handle EVE. In this case it's like a true market. If you put all your money in a risky venture, you could get PAID, or you could lose your ass. If BP Copies are nerfed, some will lose their ass. The owners of originals will get PAID.
Kyn Aerie	Posted - 2003.08.01 21:44:00 - [24] Quote: Quote: And why isn't the demand there? Because there are too many producers. And why are the too many producers? Because you can manufactor high lvl items too easily. And why can you do that? Because you can buy a BP copy for 20% of the originals price. And that 80% savings slows people down how much? Not bloody much for anyone that's determined. The demand isn't there because the attrition isn't there. People make more than enough isk easily to purchase blueprint originals. Isk is the poorest way to demotivate someone from doing something. I think she makes a valid point. I don't see how you're refuting it. Are you saying that there is no demand because no one is losing their stuff? That's not true. The more populated EVE becomes, the less true it will be. As more will move to lower sec areas and become pirate food (npc or pvp). Production specialization with the new tech will also help open up the market as you won't be able to buy everything you need from your own corp.
Indaek	Posted - 2003.08.01 21:46:00 - [25] I honestly don't see what the problem is. People that invested in copies gets to keep them the same as they are now and can't research tech 2, and people with orignals will be able to research tech 2 thus making the tech 1 copies useless on the market. Seems to me about the only fair way to clean up this fugged up market, imo.
voodoo	Posted - 2003.08.01 21:50:00 - [26] Quote: I think the point would be to grandfather the tech I items, then there will be 4 levels of tech that would be so called "fixed". There will be a point where nobody even uses the old tech I items, so who cares if it's grandfathered. This is exactly correct. So ratehr then ** off the people who bought the bp copies just grandfather them in and once the new tech lvl's come out bam peeps will be creating the new tech stuff not the old and all done without ing off a single person. The Blue Pills Make Me Happy**
Virulence	Posted - 2003.08.01 21:57:00 - [27] nemi did you think i was talking about business within the game? think a little harder. shadows and dust
Tolanthas	Posted - 2003.08.01 22:00:00 - [28] Bottom line,, Even if they nerf a Bp copy down to 10 productions you still have made out. Corps which produce ships for themselves save hugely even with a 10 run copy. If I buy a scorp Bp copy for 200 million isk and make 10. If I were to buy them they are supposed to cost well over 100 million isk each. Previously before all the copies it was nothing to sell a scorp for minerlas + 40 million isk or more. So in ships you make back your return and still can make 5 more saving 200 million or more. Now buying a copy to produce to see is another matter as you have to count on the profit off the sale to make your money. Nerfing ALL of the copies will increase the value of all items across the board with the exception of the ones dropped by pirates. Anyone who doesnt see this has there head in the sand and ha no idea about the concept of supply and demand. Until the patch people with copies should take advantage and make as much as they can so when the BP's are killed or limited to the max number of copies they will feel only a miniscule pinch from the loss having made many times over the cost of buying a copy. This also in no way covers the corps that simply swapped a bp copy for another bp copy allowing both corps to make bothb for nothing more than tieing up a research slot for a week or so. Sorry but nerfing or what not is the most sensible thing. We have several Bp copies ourselves. So what if we loose them. Thats what originals are for. We will buy what we need in originals and continue as we have,
Drutort	Posted - 2003.08.01 22:49:00 - [29] ok so what if ccp went and said fine for 1 more week after patch all copies right now can do 2x, when that week is over boom your copies go back there normal amount... and if you used up all 20 good if 10 well too bad... it will be back to 10 or whatever there is always some middle part... or some form of warning etc can be done, but giving everyone unlimited to what they have now is just stupid. support Idea: QuickInfo an alternative to ShowInfo my MoBlog
Mujun Kross	Posted - 2003.08.01 22:50:00 - [30] I hope they do limit the BP copies. Everyone who went out and spent the money on the copies will get what they get. After all EVERYONE knew from the beginning that bp copies were not working right and that a change was coming. Having BP copies being only good for X number of runs forces people to either go out and buy the original or replace the BP copy with another Copy. Or, now here is the shocker, forces them to buy the manufactured goods from someone else...gasp! A market cannot grow and thrive if money does not exchange hands. Having the BP copies only good for so many runs forces the money to change hands and keep the economy moving. Just remember before all you "economic experts" start up again...WE ALL KNEW THE BP COPIES WERE BROKEN! So buying the BP copies was risky to begin with as YOU KNEW A CHANGE WAS COMING!!! . . . "If war is part of policy, policy will determine its character. As policy becomes more ambitious and vigorous, so will war, and this may reach the point where war attains its absolute form....Policy is the guiding intelligence and war only the instrument, not vice versa." --Carl von Clausewitz

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