CCP seems to be able to add things to be refineable without too much trouble, so why is this nasty hack needed?

The 4hr respawn timer should be removed entirely, and balance of supply should be controlled through the refined ice product yields. This can be accomplished by changing racial ice to producing 200 isotopes instead of 300, lowsec should have an improved racial at 300 isotopes, and nullsec a better improved at 400 isotopes/block. This will actually create a sectioned risk/reward jump (0.0 > lowsec > highsec) and bring ice miners out of empire. At the very least, the low and nullsec ice field respawn timers should be shorter than 4hrs (3&2hrs, 2&1, or preferably instant respawn).

Goonswarm has their own agenda that rarely overlaps with that of the public good. As an actual miner I can tell you quite clearly that exporting ice/ore to empire is not trivial. Right now ore is rarely exported to empire because the refined mineral yield is much smaller than the ores. And ice is exported to empire out of necessity because nullsec cannot consume it and highsec needs it.

Just because Goonswarm hasn't yet found a way to make isk from miners doesn't mean you need to destroy the entire ice mining profession. Goonswarm is hurting for income after the expansion because of the collapse of technetium.

I know you plan to cyno jam your systems to prevent miners from being able to export ice/ore so they'll refine locally.
I know you plan to increase your ratting taxes.
I know you plan to raise your POCO taxes.

You're foaming at the mouth over possible tax income you see from "more ice miners in nullsec" that you're pushing really hard for these changes. You don't care that the changes will destroy the ice mining profession because you might make some short-term isk. Casual highsec players will no longer be able to ice mine at all. Nullsec ice will cater entirely to the poacher rather than the true industrialist. The changes are bad.

"This is what the Native Americans must have felt like. Having their culture and way of life destroyed and livelihood made almost extinct. And then to add insult to injury told they can move to a more hostile environment, it will be ok."

You asked me to give specifics on why your motives weren't the same as the public, I did. You don't get to be upset now that they make you look greedy and petty. I have listed time and again why this is going to hurt the ice mining profession, for both the casual and hardcore players. Making false sweeping generalizations does not disprove anything I have said.

Once again you, a non-industrialist, are trying to control the mining profession. This is like a council of men voting that abortion should be illegal. You claim my math is hilariously off, but give no numbers. My numbers are accurate. You say highsec easily supplies its own demand of ozone, but that is OBVIOUSLY not true. This only highlights how little you understand the intricate details of the profession. Highsec ice produces ozone:HW at a 1:2 ratio, there is never enough ozone to match demand.
...
You see, we've run the numbers. We've been miners from the start. We know the system. I'm telling you, these changes are going to make ice mining untenable.

Nope,
Procurer is still useless in low sec. What good does more tank do you if CONCORD is not on the way to save you?

Tank means nothing to a ship so easily tackled in space where CONCORD does not spawn.

No it still dies, It is very easy to catch. If you were correct low sec mining would be common rather than non existent as it is now. After all the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th most valuable ores currently are Hedbergite, memorphite, and Jaspet, all found in abundance in low sec. Yet nobody mines there.

If we had more infra-structure like a revamped POS, the sov was a little different, some ways to get ice, we could still be there... and more small alliances could have their space, so more good PVP would be available.

But I'm Happy that the next expansion will be "Build Your empire" Themed... so we still have hope...

(e) Oh and we wouldn't really need station improvements if we could just put multiple stations in a system. Why does high-sec get special treatment? Isn't the point of LAWLESS space to not have restrictions on what you can build and where you can put it?

Let's examine the changes to the supply of ozone in the galaxy.

This is a chart showcasing the changes to ice, and the new ice product yield from the ice anomalies.

The very last chart in that picture shows the relative ozone supply yield from mining in each of these systems before and after the changes. The "New" column is including the x2 mining rate, and the "Old" column is still the 1x mining rate. The mining yields compared in this chart assume that the new ice anomalies respawn instantly. And since they don't the actually supply of ozone will be substantially less than shown.

Let's examine our ice need
Based on Jita market history, towers are consumed in the ratio of 37% / 22% / 41% (S/M/L)
This implies the average tower consumes (37*40 + 22*20 + 41*10)/100 = 23.3 fuel blocks/hr
There were last reported 20,489 online towers
That's 11.46mil fuel blocks/day
Or 114.6mil isotopes/day

The chart itself should be simple to understand. It's a flat comparison of ozone yields per hour of mining, before and after the expansion. What you're saying is that it's misleading because it's looking at per miner basis rather than accounting for an "expected nullsec miner increase of 230%". And you're correct in so far as, if you pour enough ice miners into nullsec they'll eventually be able to produce enough ozone to meet the current supply.

I don't have time to explain right now because I'm about to be late, but your simplifying assumptions are also misleading because they're not accounting for the reality of highsec isotope mining being far less, and the sheer number of nullsec miners needing to be far greater than a 230% increase. I'll also try to come up with numbers on how many nullsec miners there are right now after I get home from work. But it's greater than I'd have thought.

That would go contrary to CCP's intent then. They made the 4-hour respawn so that everyone has a chance to mine ice no matter their timezone, but if someone leaves one roid with one ice block in it, and if it doesn't respawn in 4 hours, then the person logging on later is screwed? Logic (based on CCP's reason for making the 4-hour respawn in the first place) would say it has to respawn every 4 hours no how much it's been (or not been) mined.

Why is lowsec ice getting hit as hard as it is?

That's why its called emergent gameplay, if everyone's gameplay only mirrored yours, Eve would be a very boring place.

... like using the forums to swagger and grief Miners.

IF there are few others mining that asteroid, which - as I stated before - I don't expect.

Edit: your 'proof' wasn't very convincing to me.

It's a problem when people can only play during certain time periods, if you don't get a belt at the start of your play session oh well, looks like you aren't playing today.

Okay now that's like comparing apples and oranges...it doesn't work.

I tell you what...how about all the havens and sanctums that currently have a 5 min spawn timer, goes to a 4 hour respawn time....now lets not stop there...lets add in all ratting anoms. See why we are complaining?

How well are you going to like the game when your null sec ratting areas are now on the same 4 hour timer....your not...your going to moan and whine just like the industrialist are currently doing.

Hi kettle!

In all seriousness tho, the orginial argument wasn't valid, as 10/10 are spawned from Ratting Anoms, which are respawned after completion and allow a chance to spawn a 10/10. The ratting anoms, which are pretty much instant repop after completion, allow for multiple chances to get the 10/10. Now if all anoms were set to the 4 hour respawn, then the comparsion would be valid.

However if that is the only troll I get off my rant....well I consider it time well spent.

1. Do you believe that installing a limiting game mechanic into the Universe that will exclude a person's ability to participate in that activity based solely on the time that they enter the game is a good idea? If so, why?

2. Do you think that installing this limited game mechanic that decreases game content will make that content more enriching to those that do have the ability to participate in it?

The changes are being made to stop afk ice botting and ISboxer using 50+ accts,

increase the value of ice, and to move more ice miners to null and low sec.

How does it not? It removes game content from the game for 4 hours....

Really? Dumb to find a way to combat botters without having to track down and ban accounts? I think it was fairly smart of them to change the game content to a system that doesn't allow for a program to be used like this....rather then wasting time by banning accts only to have them reopen a new acct and start the cycle all over again...

Oh come off the worthless high-sec carebear soapbox....what effects them will in turn effect you, that's why its called a sandbox. Again the value increase is a good thing, but the prices will increase in both areas...again we are in agreement.

basically you have no idea what you're talking about

As far as the position of the goons, let's play a little game of Cui Bono? (meaning, who profits?)

1) We are dealing with the self-identified head of goons' economic warfare unit.

2) Goons are well-known for using psy-ops in support of their market manipulations.

3) If we postulate that goons have taken a long position on Ice and Ice Products, then obviously their investment will only show profits if the price of ice and ice products do in fact rise substantially.

4) Given the law of supply and demand, the more other people hoard Ice and Ice Products, the less the prices will rise, and the less profit goons will make.

5) Therefore, in this scenario, it is absolutely in the goons' best interest to convince everyone that Ice prices are not going to go up. In fact, the success or failure of their entire project could hinge on how successfully they convince others not to take a long position on Ice.

(the above massively condensed from a huge wall-o-text involving nested quotes from hell)


No, Aryth, in all honesty I am not aware of any of this, but I'd like to learn more. I have taken multiple long breaks from Eve over the last 7 years, and I've missed a lot.

I'm not sure I even understand what you're saying above but I'm willing to listen if you want to explain.

It's more complicated than that. And no I don't care enough to try to explain it.