I work a 9 till 5 job. I get up at 8AM have breakfast leave at 8:30AM. I get home from work at about 5:30PM.

How do your work colleagues put up with your stench? Do they ever mention this to you?

The solution is kind of obvious as other have pointed out. Put in some +3s or something if isk is a problem.

I knew a lot of people would respond like this. Yes I could use +3s, but I still don't really understand the point in the timer being 24hrs instead of 6hrs. We shouldn't have to compromise for bad design.

I knew a lot of people would respond like this. Yes I could use +3s, but I still don't really understand the point in the timer being 24hrs instead of 6hrs. We shouldn't have to compromise for bad design.

SoGǪ remove learning implants?

I knew a lot of people would respond like this. Yes I could use +3s, but I still don't really understand the point in the timer being 24hrs instead of 6hrs. We shouldn't have to compromise for bad design.

Make Jump clone and implant clone a separate thing.. make the jump clones have an 12 hour timer and implant clone have no timer make the implant clone have an option to store clone and redeem clone make it so you cant jump to it, you have to travel to the station were you stored the clone and redeem it .

make the 2nd, 3rd etc jump per 24h cost isk?

Seriously... losing 3 hours of training stops you from doing PvP.

I prefer a more laid back approach where I just blow up stuff and enjoy the game, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

I knew a lot of people would respond like this. Yes I could use +3s, but I still don't really understand the point in the timer being 24hrs instead of 6hrs. We shouldn't have to compromise for bad design.

Seriously... losing 3 hours of training stops you from doing PvP.

I prefer a more laid back approach where I just blow up stuff and enjoy the game, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

No 24hrs of training.

No 24hrs of training.

Right now the only thing that stops me from logging in and playing everyday is the 24hr timer on jump clones. I work a 9 till 5 job. I get up at 8AM have breakfast leave at 8:30AM. I get home from work at about 5:30PM. At this point I want to relax do some PvP until I go to bed, but it always comes down to the fact that to do 2 or 3 hrs of PvP would mean being out of my learning clone for 24hrs (Assuming I don't want to risk a 550m pod every time I go out in a frig.)

So basically I think the timer for Jump clones is absurdly long to the point where during the week I only log in to update the queue and check the trades.

I also can't see any point in it being so long. I understand that it's in place to prevent people jumping all over the galaxy. However a timer of say 6 hours would stop people being able to do this, and it would also mean I could log in jump to a pvp clone, have some fun and jump back to a learning clone later.

I would love to have a 20h jump timer, so that i can jump into an different clone for an different up in time.

And te jump clone UI is ****.

And why are only 1 clone per station allowed?

Remove Jump Clones.

Or at the very least allow the ability to switch clones ONLY IN THE SAME STATION, at a lowered "cooldown" and for a hefty price.

Remove Jump Clones.

Or at the very least allow the ability to switch clones ONLY IN THE SAME STATION, at a lowered "cooldown" and for a hefty price.

If you lose your pod in low sec, youre an idiot.

Fly in +4s, much cheaper, and minimal loss in SP gain compared to +5s. Less being risk averse and go shoot something plz. For letting the timer of jump clones stop you from pvp'ing, youre an idiot anyways. Youre also not a special snowflake that works 9 to 5 job. I work 7 to 4, so suck it up buttercup.

If you lose your pod in low sec, youre an idiot.

Fly in +4s, much cheaper, and minimal loss in SP gain compared to +5s. Less being risk averse and go shoot something plz. For letting the timer of jump clones stop you from pvp'ing, youre an idiot anyways. Youre also not a special snowflake that works 9 to 5 job. I work 7 to 4, so suck it up buttercup.

because it's a station, not a tardis. gotta make sure every one else can store their clone too.

No 24hrs of training.

Seriously... losing 3 hours of training stops you from doing PvP.

I prefer a more laid back approach where I just blow up stuff and enjoy the game, but whatever floats your boat I guess.

I do agree a 20 hour timer would be good that way you can switch every day for PVP shenanigans

Simple solution to this problem:

Why not just make it possible to unplug implants

Right now the only thing that stops me from logging in and playing everyday is the 24hr timer on jump clones. I work a 9 till 5 job. I get up at 8AM have breakfast leave at 8:30AM. I get home from work at about 5:30PM. At this point I want to relax do some PvP until I go to bed, but it always comes down to the fact that to do 2 or 3 hrs of PvP would mean being out of my learning clone for 24hrs (Assuming I don't want to risk a 550m pod every time I go out in a frig.)

So basically I think the timer for Jump clones is absurdly long to the point where during the week I only log in to update the queue and check the trades.

I also can't see any point in it being so long. I understand that it's in place to prevent people jumping all over the galaxy. However a timer of say 6 hours would stop people being able to do this, and it would also mean I could log in jump to a pvp clone, have some fun and jump back to a learning clone later.

I knew a lot of people would respond like this. Yes I could use +3s, but I still don't really understand the point in the timer being 24hrs instead of 6hrs. We shouldn't have to compromise for bad design.

Here is my alternative solution; Remove jump clones completely, remove the LP cost of implants (except named implants i.e Snake), make all non-named implants available from an NPC in all stations in the universe.

This would create a scenario where implants become cheap and easily available wherever you are.

Players can no longer use jump clones to travel great distances.

If they use their medical clone, they will lose their implants.

Implants will be freely available anywhere so the risk of losing implants is diminished by removing the logistics involved in acquiring new ones.

Implants will still cost isk so there is still a risk in using them and the player must decide on what they are willing to lose.

More implants will be lost due to the removal of Jump Clones and the increased use of implants as a result of easier access to implants.

The cost of implants is paid directly to an NPC vendor, effectively removing the ISK from the economy and reinforcing the value of the existing ISK sink due to the increase in implant purchases.

Just an idea which can probably be improved upon but it seems to address a few issues quite conveniently in my eyes.

It addresses all of the complaints

more compatible with the player driven focus of the game.

Right now the only thing that stops me from logging in and playing everyday is the 24hr timer on jump clones. I work a 9 till 5 job. I get up at 8AM have breakfast leave at 8:30AM. I get home from work at about 5:30PM. At this point I want to relax do some PvP until I go to bed, but it always comes down to the fact that to do 2 or 3 hrs of PvP would mean being out of my learning clone for 24hrs (Assuming I don't want to risk a 550m pod every time I go out in a frig.)

So basically I think the timer for Jump clones is absurdly long to the point where during the week I only log in to update the queue and check the trades.

I also can't see any point in it being so long. I understand that it's in place to prevent people jumping all over the galaxy. However a timer of say 6 hours would stop people being able to do this, and it would also mean I could log in jump to a pvp clone, have some fun and jump back to a learning clone later.

Jumping into a clone with no implants to self destruct is a problem that should be kept in mind. Adding a cooldown to changing your home station could help that.

I'm not sure what you're trying to do regarding your point about ISK in the overall economy. Implants are already an isk sink.

Because 24 hours was the compromise to put it in in the first place.

Self destructing your pod was how it was done back in the day, harden up and self destruct your pod when you are already in your non training clone.

I'm suggesting that by making implants more disposable, players might be more inclined to lose them in PvP and replace them more frequently due to them being more freely available. This would increase the value of the ISK sink and its effect on the economy.

I think your solution frankly makes things a lot more complicated than they need to be.

Your scheme also pretty much removes the need to buy most implants from another player and I think that's definitely something that CCP wants to avoid.

So...conclusion is:

1) OP is scared of loosing pods
2) Some people agree as they are scared of loosing their pods too
3) Some people want to dumb down by removing learning implants
4) Sane sensible people realise that this is added to stop people jumping around like anything to get places easily.
5) Other sane people actually understand that it doesn't affect their training that much and don't give a do doo either way

SoGǪ remove learning implants?

From what I see in chatter in terms of players and their JC's, learning implants are a huge deciding factor in pvp participation.
I wish it were not so, there would be so many more players taking part in good pvp pewpew. I admit that my learning implants determine my modus operandi as to when I prepare for pvp - only on weekends.

Removing my learning implants (blank clone) affects my skill plan for the year by 16 days in the red. More and more I have asked myself - is that really such a big deal ? My answer is "no, it is not".

Forthwith I am determined not to allow implants to affect my days and times for EVE. They become a trap, slow and insidious from the day you do that first training course.

Skill implants for improved shields/armor/lasers etc - those are fine, they have no effect on your skill queue.
Learning implants are slow poison and change the way an individual plays EVE.

o7

It's not so much that removing learning implants is dumbing the game down; it's that learning implants make players dumb. Ship combat should not be an adverse factor to character progression GÇö quite the opposite (but then, it would be hard to make the opposite work without turning it into some kind of grinding, which is arguably even worse).

+4 implants are not really expensive.

You don't need a full set, all skills use only two attributes. And if you are a SP fanatic you train the same attributes until you can remap anyway, don't tell me otherwise!

That makes around 40mil for the implants per clone. Not really expensive and the SP you loose isn't even worth jumping into your training clone anymore.

Still not the point.

Right now the only thing that stops me from logging in and playing everyday is the 24hr timer on jump clones. I work a 9 till 5 job. ...snip...

I still think learning implants are a good thing generally because they're one way that players can have an edge over others in training speed, the other way of course being neural remaps. If one can afford that edge they should by all means be allowed to have it.

replace "learning implant" with "learning skill" and ....

We will remove:
- learning skills (already removed, players didn't want to make plans and decide between faster SP NOW/more SP OVERALL),
- learning implants (players don't want to pvp with implants and don't want to plan accordingly. they WANT IT NOW)
- jump clone timers (players don't want to wait and plan, thay WANT IT NOW)
- remaps (players will not want to wait timers, they will WANT IT NOW)
- what's next?

replace "learning implant" with "learning skill" and ....

- learning skills (already removed, players didn't want to make plans and decide between faster SP NOW/more SP OVERALL),

The only thing that stops me playing

Roime - "I don't have a problem with the current system, therefore there are no problems with the current system."

James Amril-Kesh - "I have a problem with the current system, therefore there is a problem with the current system."

Really, it's the same as saying that Vindicator prices prevent people from PVPing.

You have to ask yourselves what it is exactly that you want to do in this game- is it more important for you to min/max your SP, or play the game?

We all know that training characters requires nothing more than injecting skillbooks and keeping the queue full. But cool, if that's what you prefer then just stay docked up in hisec and wear +5s and optimize.

Or, probably a much more pertinent question: what benefit does EVE gain from forcing players to be stuck in their implant sets for 24 hours at a time (unless of course they either get podded or they forcefully unplug and destroy the implants themselves)?

What benefit did EVE get before there were jump clones, and they were 'forced' to be in them all the time, period, until they were podded, or tore them out and destroyed them?

Regardless of whether this is their own psychological issue or not, this behavior is damaging to gameplay

People are fine with the costs of ships, modules, etc. because that's a possible loss that people accept when they go to PVP. They accept it because these modules or ships contribute to some extent. Learning implants don't.

Let me put it to you another way. Would you go out on frigate roams while in your LG Virtue set clone? Why or why not?

Or, probably a much more pertinent question: what benefit does EVE gain from forcing players to be stuck in their implant sets for 24 hours at a time (unless of course they either get podded or they forcefully unplug and destroy the implants themselves)?

Why is this a better system than allowing players to switch out their implants or clones more regularly?
Why should the best learning implants in the game be reserved for those that never risk them?

ITT: BSers BSing that learning implants are why they don't PvP.

Remove learning implants, and these people still won't PvP. They weren't PvPing before they put the implants in. Remove jump clone timers, and they still won't PvP. Remove jump clones and they definitely won't PvP.

Their psychological issues are damaging to their gameplay.

Remove learning implants from the game and increase the base rate as if you have +3s or +4s fitted.

That way you won't need to use jump clones just to train, would probably get more people to PvP too, as learning implants won't factor into the loses anymore.

Learning boosters are an interesting idea but pose problems of their own, such as removing the ISK sink of implants (as I doubt CCP is inclined to introduce any additional items into the game that are NPC sold) and requiring a lot of work to develop for questionable benefit

[/list]

GǪyou're comparing a meaningless meta-mechanic that everyone with an ounce of sense recognised should never have been in the game (which is why they were removed)...

Let me put it to you another way. Would you go out on frigate roams while in your LG Virtue set clone? Why or why not?

And because this is a persistent, single-shard MMO, the gameplay of others around them.
That's what makes this a problem.

thanks. i understand your point

I still believe this is the best idea. Remove learning implants or all implants for that matter and switch to a multi-day booster. It wouldn't need to be NPC seeded, and if you add BPCs for pirate factions/FW could still work as a sink. Not to mention expand low sec's gas cloud capabilities to not only help drive traffic but give more incentive to live in low.

There are flaws to every idea and with the current mechanic. While a switch to boosters would be annoying, it has more overall benefits then downsides, in comparison to the current system or just reducing JC timer.

And because this is a persistent, single-shard MMO, the gameplay of others around them.
That's what makes this a problem.

I guess I'll just consolidate some of my points here:

• You can't just allow timerless clones within the same station. This in combination with changing med clone stations leads to abuse.
• For the same reason, you can't just allow players to unplug their implants.
• You can't shorten the JC timer (except by a small amount of less than one hour to avoid the issue of having the end of the timer get continually pushed back every day) because that causes the same problems with fast travel that CCP wants to avoid.
• Removing learning implants entirely isn't a solution because there are definite pros to the system that need not be negated.
• Learning boosters are an interesting idea but pose problems of their own, such as removing the ISK sink of implants (as I doubt CCP is inclined to introduce any additional items into the game that are NPC sold) and requiring a lot of work to develop for questionable benefit

As usual, you don't actually get what this whole argument is about.

This has been a long standing gripe with pretty much everyone from your highsec carebears to goonswarm advocating a change to the current situation for various reasons. Everyone of them is well aware of their negative impact to PvP participation though. Changing the situation doesn't mean everyone will PvP. It just means PvP will happen more often then it does now.

Their reduced enjoyment of the game will also mean more likelyhood of them stopping to pay for the game, which is a reason CCP might care for the issue. Improving the system doesn't do harm for the game either, so I'm not sure why some people are so deadset on defending the statusquo. I understand people disagreeing on the specific method used to improve the situation, since they have their downsides or don't go far enough, but to actively oppose getting more people to participate in PvP instead of just logging off in frustration is something I don't get.

Not really, there is no lack of targets in this game.

Some people feel that fights should be made fair and argue that arenas would increase PVP. Others feel that full loot is too harsh, and if they could keep their shinies after defeat there would be more PVP. Others feel that blobs are unfair, and introducing hardcoded fleet size restrictions would increase PVP.

And so on. I would but, I would if, while all the time others just do it.

Should these personal problems be used as basis for game design changes?

But I don't see people screaming about how the cost of Daredevils stops them from engaging in PvP.

Ah, the giggles....

So, +5 implants are on par with AFK cloakers...both are psychologically damaging

I see you're still on page one.
Most of us are past that point.

You can bet they would if you couldn't change ships or fits more than once every 24 hours.

They actually have no impact whatsoever on PvP participation. People's own hangups have an impact, however.

Characters are not born with implants. People choose to install them because they want more SP faster, or they want highly upgraded abilities. Their penalty is that they may be out some isk if they lose their pod.

Some people fly Daredevils, when an assault frigate would suit them just fine. If they lose it, they're out in some cases almost five times the cost for the hull alone. But I don't see people screaming about how the cost of Daredevils stops them from engaging in PvP. It's a choice, like anything else.

There are people that fly what they can afford to lose, and people that make decisions to limit themselves artificially. Both are playing the game exactly how they want to be playing it.

No they wouldn't. Because the risk is the same, regardless of timers. You undock something expensive, you might lose it.

It's human nature to do things in the most efficient way so there is no real choice as to if you want learning enhancement implants fitted or not

Exactly. The only alternative is not to undock at all.
Now you see the problem.

Is that what they're teaching in the Republic Military School?

I've spent less than half my limited time in this game with a set of learning implants in. My +4s are gathering dust in Rens, because the only time I spend in that clone is when I go up to shop and set up a jump freighter contract.

My purpose in this game is to garner enjoyment from playing it. I don't get a high hard one from seeing my skillpoints tick faster and faster the more isk I stick in my skull.

Some people confuse something they have with what they should have. If you want to pvp why not just cast off things that make you anxious? It's just a game.

If you're so scared to lose fictional money to play the game what is the point in playing it?

Someone who really wants to pvp (but doesn't want to lose a lot of isk pvping) won't put +5 implants into a pvp toon's brain, period. They'll use cheaper implants , because EVE players don't Brain what they can't afford to lose.i

But with implants, you can simply choose less expensive implants or no implants at all and simply delay gratification on skill training a bit. I can see the validity to the slippery slope argument in this case, if you start taking away consequences now, the next generation of player (who didn't experience the original consequences) will want even more changes to enhance their comfort.

Do you think it's fair that PvPers should suffer skill training time loses just because they want to PvP when PvP is a core part of EVE?

No one is suffering. These aren't the starving children of Somalia. They're grown ass people that made a choice to forego some training time to get out and blow stuff up. If anything, they're probably having more fun than you, because they chose not to tie their daily activity to a set of implants.

Well how about removable Implants?

This would not be Eve if you could just freely do as you please without some consequences.

Well how about removable Implants?

How do your work colleagues put up with your stench? Do they ever mention this to you?

Implants are an isk sink. If there is more demand for implants, more ISK will be removed from the economy. The destruction of implants needs to be encouraged.

Implants could only be an isk sink if you buy them off CCP for a hefty isk price. Implants however are bought with LP from faction stores by players. You give isk to another player to buy them off their hands. So logically implants are NOT an isk sink since the money stays in the economy. Your statement is totally false -.-.

Please, save us from your input next time..

Implants could only be an isk sink if you buy them off CCP for a hefty isk price. Implants however are bought with LP from faction stores by players. You give isk to another player to buy them off their hands. So logically implants are NOT an isk sink since the money stays in the economy. Your statement is totally false -.-.

Please, save us from your input next time..

Having played several mmos where "travel by dying" is common, I can't even begin to describe how stupid it makes the game.
Jump clones as is are already bad enough, don't make it worse.

Their reduced enjoyment of the game will also mean more likelyhood of them stopping to pay for the game, which is a reason CCP might care for the issue. Improving the system doesn't do harm for the game either, so I'm not sure why some people are so deadset on defending the statusquo. I understand people disagreeing on the specific method used to improve the situation, since they have their downsides or don't go far enough, but to actively oppose getting more people to participate in PvP instead of just logging off in frustration is something I don't get.

I need to know where you're shopping, since I've never gotten a single implant from an LP store without paying some isk to the NPC vendor.

Implants cost ISK as well as LP. And there's also the tax. Which you should know with a corp name like that.

Right now the only thing that stops me from logging in and playing everyday is the 24hr timer on jump clones. I work a 9 till 5 job. I get up at 8AM have breakfast leave at 8:30AM. I get home from work at about 5:30PM. At this point I want to relax do some PvP until I go to bed, but it always comes down to the fact that to do 2 or 3 hrs of PvP would mean being out of my learning clone for 24hrs (Assuming I don't want to risk a 550m pod every time I go out in a frig.)

So basically I think the timer for Jump clones is absurdly long to the point where during the week I only log in to update the queue and check the trades.

I also can't see any point in it being so long. I understand that it's in place to prevent people jumping all over the galaxy. However a timer of say 6 hours would stop people being able to do this, and it would also mean I could log in jump to a pvp clone, have some fun and jump back to a learning clone later.

Do you think it's fair that PvPers should suffer skill training time loses just because they want to PvP when PvP is a core part of EVE?

i PvP with implants (2x+4s for skill i train at the moment). And i lose hardly more than 1-2 pods in a month.

WHAT DO I DO WRONG?

So the answer to your question: no one suffers unless they chose to.

And someone in high-sec doing PvE can wear a full set of +5s without even worrying about.

Point is if there were no learning implants there would be no difference in training times between PvPers and PvEers. As well as encouraging more people to get involved with PvP as the losses would not be so great.

As you are just using 2 implants which is common practice in PvP that only really is efficient if you're training skills that have long training times or a group of skills that require the same attributes, which doesn't help newer PvPers.

So start wearing +5s in PvP and I might be impressed.

The op is obsessing over learning implants and skill per hour instead of having fun. That is the problem.

Would have expected someone a couple of years old to be past the OOOOOO SP!!!!! stage

I never grew out of it, its fun!!!! It-¦s like watching a sand clock slowly filling in the bottom ... relaxing ...

and at some point they get podded....
but this is offtop

well, it could help till people collect so much SP so they will have expensive medical clones.

oops, some people already complain about it .

i played my few first months without implants (couldn't afford them anyway). And i'm still here. Any other questions?
(something tells me that "newer PvPers" here used accordingly to Malcanis law)
.

As people mentioned already: using +5s instead of +4s you save yourself 5 or about days in a year. You lose more in case of bad remap which you have like 50% of time. So i'm sorry. Show me any REAL reasons (and i mean REAL. Please no "MY SP/HOUR!!!") to use +5s instead of +4 (or even +3s) then we can discuss how learning implants hurt the game.