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Megadon
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Posted - 2005.10.12 23:34:00 -
[1]
Thought this might be an interesting topic. The people that have the most accurate vision of what Eve will develop into over the long term are the developers and CCP. Their vision is influenced/shaped by the player community.
Do you feel that this vision (whatever it may be) is disproportionally influenced by players that do not understand what the long term vision of Eve may be?
Do you feel that sometimes CCP is influenced by the noise of the community more that they should be?
...or you may think things are perfect the way they are, this is just soliciting an opinion, not offering one.
What do you think?
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Blind Fear
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Posted - 2005.10.13 00:02:00 -
[2]
If you get enough carebears together and have them start to all whine about the same thing. CCP eventually gives in to the carebear. Usually the way things get changed are by the numbers, math class finally comes in handy.
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Derailing threads with logic since 1992 |
Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.10.13 00:19:00 -
[3]
heh Blind.
This would be why the Exodus worked so well, right? Oh wait.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
mimik
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Posted - 2005.10.13 00:32:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Blind Fear
If you get enough carebears together and have them start to all whine about the same thing. CCP eventually gives in to the carebear. Usually the way things get changed are by the numbers, math class finally comes in handy.
yeah coz the missile nerf happened coz it was the carebears complaining lvl4 missions were too easy with torps or that their inties were too vulnerable to a BS with torps.
oh and all the bounties got nerfed on lvl4 missions coz the carebears complained they were making too much money from them.
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Bhaal
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Posted - 2005.10.13 00:37:00 -
[5]
Originally by: mimik
Originally by: Blind Fear
If you get enough carebears together and have them start to all whine about the same thing. CCP eventually gives in to the carebear. Usually the way things get changed are by the numbers, math class finally comes in handy.
yeah coz the missile nerf happened coz it was the carebears complaining lvl4 missions were too easy with torps or that their inties were too vulnerable to a BS with torps.
oh and all the bounties got nerfed on lvl4 missions coz the carebears complained they were making too much money from them.
I smell burnt toast 
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Current Hobby other than EVE |
mimik
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Posted - 2005.10.13 01:50:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Bhaal
Originally by: mimik
Originally by: Blind Fear
If you get enough carebears together and have them start to all whine about the same thing. CCP eventually gives in to the carebear. Usually the way things get changed are by the numbers, math class finally comes in handy.
yeah coz the missile nerf happened coz it was the carebears complaining lvl4 missions were too easy with torps or that their inties were too vulnerable to a BS with torps.
oh and all the bounties got nerfed on lvl4 missions coz the carebears complained they were making too much money from them.
I smell burnt toast
dont get me wrong i actually agree with those changes, think they were necessary and that the game is now better as a result.
i was disagreeing with the assertion that only carebears whine and group together to "force" changes to the game.
if anything the 0.0/PvP lobby is far more vocal about changes and probably more likely to get listened to.
again tho that aint necessarily a bad thing.
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Necrologic
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Posted - 2005.10.13 01:56:00 -
[7]
In general there are alot of people trying to influence the game who really don't have a clue of how things should be or what's best for the game, but they arn't as bad as the crowds who shout down the people who do have a clue just because they don't like the proposed changes.
P.S. Nerf Nos.
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infused
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Posted - 2005.10.13 02:36:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Necrologic
P.S. Nerf Nos.
Why? Been pawned by a few T2 crusiers and BS?
NOS is fine, it needs no nerf. It is the only decent counter to ceptors
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Cael
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Posted - 2005.10.13 02:43:00 -
[9]
I'm glad CCP don't listen to most of what's posted in these forums :)
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B0rn2KiLL
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Posted - 2005.10.13 02:47:00 -
[10]
missle\raven nerf BLAME AMARRIANS!
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When It Absolutely Positively Has To Be Desotroyed. |
theRaptor
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Posted - 2005.10.13 03:05:00 -
[11]
You think CCP listens to the community?
At best the community can get CCP's attention. But CCP often do very little or go insane (Minmatar and Caldari nerfs). For example people where complaining that Stealth Bombers where lacklustre before they even hit Tranq, and CCP are yet to fix them, and its been five months or so.
Oh and blaming other races pilots for racial nerfs is stupid. Very few people stick to one race. Missiles needed changing but CCP as usual went to far (Anyone remember how long the minnies got nerfed for?), and the changes combined with the crappiness of shield tanking pushed Caldari ships over the edge.
The devs have a vision of what they want EVE to be, but ultimately they have to please enough players to pay the bills.
And I heard the noise of thunder. And I looked and behold: a pale horse. And his name, that sat on him, was Death. And Hell followed with him |
Necrologic
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Posted - 2005.10.13 03:08:00 -
[12]
Originally by: infused
Originally by: Necrologic
P.S. Nerf Nos.
Why? Been pawned by a few T2 crusiers and BS?
NOS is fine, it needs no nerf. It is the only decent counter to ceptors
No, i want it nerfed for a large amount of good reasons based off logic, that nobody has been able to counter yet. But this thread is not about nos, so let's not take it off topic anymore. If you want my views dig up that huge nos thread.
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.10.13 03:14:00 -
[13]
Originally by: infused
Originally by: Necrologic
P.S. Nerf Nos.
Why? Been pawned by a few T2 crusiers and BS?
NOS is fine, it needs no nerf. It is the only decent counter to ceptors
Except webs, drones and your OWN interceptors or AF's, you're absolutely right. Wait...
Nos are, I feel, somewhat overpowered against smaller ships and (as stated before) I'd scale the larger ones effect against targets with smaller sig radius that their arget size, in a non-linear fashion (so a BS 100-energy Nos would hit cruisers for 75, frigates for 50 and interceptors for 35-40. 2 would swiftly cripple a ceptors cap, but 1 might not suffice...)
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.10.13 03:22:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Necrologic
In general there are alot of people trying to influence the game who really don't have a clue of how things should be or what's best for the game, but they arn't as bad as the crowds who shout down the people who do have a clue just because they don't like the proposed changes.
P.S. Nerf Nos.
^^ I think CCP do listen, but make changes at their own pace (glacial)
I especially dislike people who oppose changes that are clearly needed. (Thorax is a case in point) (and please dotn turn this into a thorax discussion )
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Manny Tanato
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Posted - 2005.10.13 03:37:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
^^ I think CCP do listen, but make changes at their own pace (glacial)
What you expect? It's Iceland afterall. That where all the icebergs are made...
-=[ I huff and I puff and nothing falls... ]=- |
Slithereen
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Posted - 2005.10.13 04:56:00 -
[16]
My impression is that CCP is responsive to some changes while dragging their foot on another. I think they have done a swell job introducing stuff that used to be the player submitted ideas forums including:
-player created stations
-player flyable faction ships
-Faction ship BPCs droppable inside loot
improving missions
-made small ships viable in PvP through signature reduction mechanisms and tech 2 improvements
-Introduce intermediete ships like destroyers and battlecruisers
-Introduce covert ships and stealth ships
-introduce alliances and sovereignties
-Introduce a new Amarr freighter aside from the Bestower
-Introduce blockade runners
-Introduce Dreadnaughts
-Introduce conquerable stations
On the other hand they also either f*cked up or are very slow in fixing:
-The overpowered Thorax
-the near useless Logistic cruisers
-the cost of maintaining a POS
-the sad state of Stealth fighters
-No fixes against cargo stealing
among other things.
They also messed up on-
-missiles overnerfed
-shield tanking overnerfed
They now appear receptive to other player demanded content such as
-Tier 3 battleships
-Tier 2 battlecruisers
-Tier 2 destroyers
-need to lengthen the time of combat
If this is a report card, I would give them an A+ one or two, a few As, lots of B+s and Bs, lots of Cs, quite a few Ds and a few solid Fs. That will be a long long list.
_______________________________________________
"Is it me or the bad guys just getting totally pathetic?"---Clover, Totally Spies,
"Hope is wasted on the Hopeless."---Mandy, The Grim Adventures of Billy and Mandy.
"Stars are holes in the sky from which the light of the Infinite shine through."---Confucius.
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Gwenvahar
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Posted - 2005.10.13 05:03:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Megadon
Thought this might be an interesting topic. The people that have the most accurate vision of what Eve will develop into over the long term are the developers and CCP. Their vision is influenced/shaped by the player community.
Do you feel that this vision (whatever it may be) is disproportionally influenced by players that do not understand what the long term vision of Eve may be?
Do you feel that sometimes CCP is influenced by the noise of the community more that they should be?
...or you may think things are perfect the way they are, this is just soliciting an opinion, not offering one.
What do you think?
I think that if there is a clear agenda for development in EVE directed by CCP, it gets planned out only months in advance. Clearly players have the influence to direct developments in certain directions. If CCP has "plans" beyond what we see under the DEV blogs and patch notes, I'd love to hear about it. For what I've see so far, everything (more or less) in the DEV blogs and patch notes was inspired by the community more so than the company. Is this bad? Absolutely not. Players know the game best. They see the needs for things even if they can not clearly relate it or understand the full complexity of bringing their vision into the game world. Lack of experience creates an unfair impatience in players on many points related to game development, I know all too well. We see the needs for the game, we report our findings, the DEV's acknowledge it, and then we wait.. and wait.. and wait some more.
Eventually the best stuff seems to be getting in,
changes occur, we whine and then get used to a new reality.
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Alberto
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Posted - 2005.10.13 05:59:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Gwenvahar
Originally by: Megadon
Thought this might be an interesting topic. The people that have the most accurate vision of what Eve will develop into over the long term are the developers and CCP. Their vision is influenced/shaped by the player community.
Do you feel that this vision (whatever it may be) is disproportionally influenced by players that do not understand what the long term vision of Eve may be?
Do you feel that sometimes CCP is influenced by the noise of the community more that they should be?
...or you may think things are perfect the way they are, this is just soliciting an opinion, not offering one.
What do you think?
I think that if there is a clear agenda for development in EVE directed by CCP, it gets planned out only months in advance. Clearly players have the influence to direct developments in certain directions. If CCP has "plans" beyond what we see under the DEV blogs and patch notes, I'd love to hear about it. For what I've see so far, everything (more or less) in the DEV blogs and patch notes was inspired by the community more so than the company. Is this bad? Absolutely not. Players know the game best. They see the needs for things even if they can not clearly relate it or understand the full complexity of bringing their vision into the game world. Lack of experience creates an unfair impatience in players on many points related to game development, I know all too well. We see the needs for the game, we report our findings, the DEV's acknowledge it, and then we wait.. and wait.. and wait some more.
Eventually the best stuff seems to be getting in,
changes occur, we whine and then get used to a new reality.
CouldnÆt agree more
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Derron Bel
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Posted - 2005.10.13 06:09:00 -
[19]
The most direct way players have to affect the game is to give feedback on features in testing.
-==-
Holy-Jim> as you know, surprise is the key to victory.....surprise!
LooseCannoN> ahh!
LooseCannoN> my plans have been foiled! |
Steven Dynahir
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Posted - 2005.10.13 06:31:00 -
[20]
I have seen that suggestions witch give out a generic idea which can be worked by the devs will usually get their attention. With this I mean that someone suggests a general idea, which is then refined by the playerbase. A too "complete" suggestion seems not to be workable.
After the devs get the attention, the outcome seems to be something like 1% of direct modification and 4% of altered modifications, and another 5% of ideas get onto the "maybe" list. The rest gets dumped.
But the important thing is, that we keep inventing those ideas. There's a diamons once in a while, and the devs shape those up to EVE standards.
---
SigPl/HQ&Log Coy/MNB(C)/KFOR |
Edhel
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Posted - 2005.10.13 09:21:00 -
[21]
i used to have hair!
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.10.13 09:25:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Derron Bel
The most direct way players have to affect the game is to give feedback on features in testing.
This is a very important point. If you see some new feature or change coming up that you don't like, then catch it on Sisi and give it a good going over. Arguments based on actual testing results are going to carry more weight than wild speculation or an "OMG you hate caldari/minmatar/miners/pirates..." rant.
The Devs seem pretty good at responding to and taking onboard clearly argued and backed-up points, and ignoring pointless whining. Of course, that doesn't always mean they agree with you, and it doesn't mean they will always implement the change.
Originally by: Deja Thoris
I think CCP do listen, but make changes at their own pace (glacial)
Unfortunately it is a lot easier to think up good ideas than it is to implement them. Couple that with the fact we have far more players thinking up ideas than we have Devs to implement them, and it's no real surprise things can take some time to get done.
There's also the issue that the Devs have to consider a change in much more detail than player suggestions generally go into. For example, most combat suggestions tend to focus on specific module/ship combinations, or certain scenarios. However, the Devs have to consider how the change would effect the whole range of ships, fittings and scenarios, which is a much bigger job and can take some time.
You can do anything. But you can't do everything. |
Sirial Soulfly
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Posted - 2005.10.13 10:45:00 -
[23]
Missile nerf,
From the moment the nerf was implemented on the test server it was clear what it was going to be and although lots of players have tested and made constructive comments in a huge heavily moderated thread the influence players had was close to zero.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.10.13 11:11:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 13/10/2005 11:11:58
CCP picks ideas from forums all the time.
They hardly ever do so without changing the ideas to suit their needs and the limitations that must be observed, but nonetheless alot of todays and tomorrows features first saw the light in player posts.
As to balance, there is most certainly an influence going out from the players. But like said, things mov slowly in Reykjavik.
The megapulse adjustment was in itself a logical adjustment that would probably have happened wihtout players pressuring CCP just as well. But I do think that the priorities when it comes to content and balancing are most certainly influenced by players voicing their opinions.
_______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know.
Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online
Solutions to your issues. |
Muthsera
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Posted - 2005.10.13 11:13:00 -
[25]
On the other hand they also either f*cked up or are very slow in fixing:
-The overpowered Thorax
Not so overpowered, it came, it shot, it died. All in the attitude.
-the near useless Logistic cruisers
agree whit you here
-the cost of maintaining a POS
as the cost of taking it out isn't hight enough. Have you tried the dread? the pos is fine.
-the sad state of Stealth fighters
agree
-No fixes against cargo stealing
don't dropp it. ccp will never fix this. It's up to your own moral to do something about this. They won't sacrifise trust over security in this. So unless you got a very smart idea how this could be done, I think you should forget about it.
among other things.
They also messed up on-
-missiles overnerfed
why? now you can't hit everyship whit torps? poor you. you need greater skills now to use this well. Instead of the insta win button that was 1 year ago.
-shield tanking overnerfed
well. agree. should do something about this. (I seem to recall that it's comming)
They now appear receptive to other player demanded content such as
-Tier 3 battleships
-Tier 2 battlecruisers
-Tier 2 destroyers
-need to lengthen the time of combat
agree whit all that.
As long as the changes are balanced I don't really mind them. But what you see as balanced isn't what I see as balanced. Espesially about those posses. I can't stand to think that it's close to impossible to take out a well defended large pos.
SoonÖ
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Nero Scuro
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Posted - 2005.10.13 11:28:00 -
[26]
Quote:
If you get enough carebears together and have them start to all whine about the same thing. CCP eventually gives in to the carebear. Usually the way things get changed are by the numbers, math class finally comes in handy.
CYVOK tried the biggest whine in EVE history and it didn't get him what he wanted.
Oh no, wait, it did. 
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forum whoring -  |
Bhaal
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Posted - 2005.10.13 11:33:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Bhaal on 13/10/2005 11:34:30
Originally by: Rod Blaine
Edited by: Rod Blaine on 13/10/2005 11:11:58
CCP picks ideas from forums all the time.
They hardly ever do so without changing the ideas to suit their needs and the limitations that must be observed, but nonetheless alot of todays and tomorrows features first saw the light in player posts.
As to balance, there is most certainly an influence going out from the players. But like said, things mov slowly in Reykjavik.
The megapulse adjustment was in itself a logical adjustment that would probably have happened wihtout players pressuring CCP just as well. But I do think that the priorities when it comes to content and balancing are most certainly influenced by players voicing their opinions.
I agree.
But in the end, they will do what THEY feel is best for the game.
When a change is made, and everyone likes and dislikes things about the change, then you know balance has been met. If one "camp" really likes the change, and the other "camp" see's it as a direct nerf to their play style, then we have problems...
No one should be afraid to post their ideas on the froums!
Even if you are getting flamed, just keep posting your ideas, who knows, with collaboration from all of us, the idea could become workable, and part of the game that will benefit the majority.
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Current Hobby other than EVE |
Shemaul
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Posted - 2005.10.13 13:36:00 -
[28]
The answer is YES, of course they affected changes in EVE.
By the way, it always happen in almost all the games, MMOG expecially.
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Kalixa Hihro
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Posted - 2005.10.13 14:29:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Megadon
Thought this might be an interesting topic. The people that have the most accurate vision of what Eve will develop into over the long term are the developers and CCP. Their vision is influenced/shaped by the player community.
Do you feel that this vision (whatever it may be) is disproportionally influenced by players that do not understand what the long term vision of Eve may be?
Do you feel that sometimes CCP is influenced by the noise of the community more that they should be?
...or you may think things are perfect the way they are, this is just soliciting an opinion, not offering one.
What do you think?
I think that all to often, the people that don't like a particular part of the game, make the most noise, when the majority of players think it works fine. Since this minority is very vocal, the devs mistakenly assume that there is a real issue and bust out the nerf bat. Meanwhile the people that think the game is fine (99% of the people fit this category) don't use the forums, because they are busy enjoying Eve.
I firmly believe that when an issue is raised by one of these players, a poll should go out to all players, in game, so the majority gets to be heard on the issue. Put nerfs to vote.
I think the game gets changed for the worse because of a few very loud individuals, when in reality they need to adjust their playing style. They want the game to play their way. It's not really fair to anyone but the minority.
l8,
Kal
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.10.13 15:12:00 -
[30]
Player feedback is both the best and worst thing to listen to.
Best because it's the players who can point out where things are going wrong.
Worst because 95% of the time, the player in question is whinging about their own personal situation.
"I lost a battleship, fitted with 8 damage controls and 150mm railguns, therefore these things suck" - type logic.
Or that they just lost a fight, and clearly they're they the best PvPer ever, therefore whatever the other guy was using must be broken.
Like it or not, the 'average' player focusses on the bad, rather than the good.
Sometimes they've a point, but if you leave a game to the 'average' player, then it gets easier and easier. This is definitely not a good thing, and it's even worse if there's player vs. player situation, and boosting one nerfs the other, and vice versa. (And of course, egos are at stake)
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