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Hawk needs 2 more launcher hardpoints.

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Rells	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:03:00 - [1] In all races there are bassically 2 assault frigates. One speced in one type of racial specialty and anothzer favoring the other type. For example, the gallente have the Enyo, a hybrid favoring ship, and the Ishkur, a drone ship. Caldari should have a hybrid favoring assault ship (the harpy) and the missile favoring assault ship (the Hawk). The problem is that the Hawk does not have enough launcher harpoints to spec 100% missile usage. This leads it into a sort of weird situation where it has to fly two different kinds of maneuvering (missile work versus hybrid work) at the same time. In addition it just seems backward that caldari cant sport a fulltime missile assault ship. Giving the hawk 2 more launcher hardpoints wouldnt affect current hawk setups, would allow people to spec missiles totally on the hawk and would allow the Hawk to become more viable in pvp. It would be a simple cahnge that I, as a caldari pilot, and Im sure others, would love.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:12:00 - [2] Yes! +2 Launchers and -3 Turret Hard points. (Possibly leave just one turret hardpoint for show) Remove +10% Turret Optimal Range bonus Add +10% Missile Velocity bonus wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I'm off to bed
BirdBleed	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:15:00 - [3] whislt you are at it, take away 1 hi slot from the retri and give it a medium. Boost the venge and the jag a bit. :)
Black Lotus	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:17:00 - [4] Edited by: Black Lotus on 13/10/2005 11:18:41 /signed Main reason i havnt bothered with caldari assualt frigs, is the lack of a missile boat. Cal Hac's get the cerb, Frig's kestrel, cruiser caracal, bs Raven. Why does every ship class for caldari have a missile boat except the assault frigs? edit BC - ferox ( i think anyways, never bothered with the bc's, so cant remember if it can be a missile boat or not.)
Rex Martell	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:23:00 - [5] Make the Hawk a missle only boat and make the Raptor a turret only boat Thanks "The object of war is not to die for your corp, but to make the other b@##@#d die for his"
Sorja	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:26:00 - [6] I recently flew a Hawk again to try some close range fittings, and, tbh, I don't see the ship being worth flying with such a sluggish behaviour. MWD TII or AB TII, all the same: the ship doesn't reach is top speed (if we can call his speed 'top') fast enough, I barely see any difference with my Eagle. TBH, even with 4 launchers I don't see the ship being very good. Light missiles don't do enough damage, they are no threat to interceptors and against larger targets (where hitting or missing is irrelevant) small rails do more damage over time. The Hawk, if it went all missiles, should have some serious damage bonus and explosion signature radius bonus (like the Manticore) to be effective, on top of a weight reduction. On market: Harpy 25mill, Hawk 8mill. There must be a reson. Kill mails
Bazman	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:33:00 - [7] The Rate of fire of the Hawks missles, assuming you have rapid launch 5 and Standard missle spec to a high level, will be bloody insane. You will be able to slaughter most other assaults. But the point against ceptors is valid, you just wont kill them without the guns.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:35:00 - [8] Originally by: Sorja I recently flew a Hawk again to try some close range fittings, and, tbh, I don't see the ship being worth flying with such a sluggish behaviour. MWD TII or AB TII, all the same: the ship doesn't reach is top speed (if we can call his speed 'top') fast enough, I barely see any difference with my Eagle. TBH, even with 4 launchers I don't see the ship being very good. Light missiles don't do enough damage, they are no threat to interceptors and against larger targets (where hitting or missing is irrelevant) small rails do more damage over time. The Hawk, if it went all missiles, should have some serious damage bonus and explosion signature radius bonus (like the Manticore) to be effective, on top of a weight reduction. On market: Harpy 25mill, Hawk 8mill. There must be a reson. Giving the Hawk a single weapon system instead of double weapon system works great towards increasing it's damage as a single damage mod is sufficient most of the time where two were required previously. Further, light missiles are good against larger ships due to range. You can more easily stay out of deadly nosferatu range if you use missiles as there are only a very few turrets that can shoot past 20km. Not to mention that at 20km light missiles does a lot more damage than any frigate turret in game! Also, after giving it a uniform weapon system, I believe there's a need to evaluate it on SiSi whether it is still inferior. Sometimes the smallest things does all the difference. Apparently merely reducing pulse laser range was enough (to bring out the whining ) wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I'm off to bed
Mangus Thermopyle	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:47:00 - [9] Seems thread like this pops up every now and then. But I agree, the hawk should be made into a missile boat with 4 missile hardpoints, and a change in assault frigate bonus (10% missile velocity instead of 10% turret range). The hawk would still do far less damage than the harpy or enyo (or for that matter, less damage than most ceptors) but atleast it would give missile users a nice ship to play around with.
Sorja	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:54:00 - [10] Originally by: Ithildin light missiles are good against larger ships due to range.... at 20km light missiles does a lot more damage than any frigate turret in game! Even 125's on my Harpy do more damage than light missiles at 20km. And at any range a gunship can kill interceptors while light missiles can't (unless the inty is drunk). On top of that, range is actually a problem for most Caldari ships since they don't have the agility to work out their optimal range, so it's pretty pointless judgeing of a ship efficiency from it's theoretical range. There are cruisers than can dictate their range to the Caldari AFs. Kill mails
Alex Harumichi	Posted - 2005.10.13 11:59:00 - [11] A missile-based AF would be a nice addition to the game, and Hawk fits the bill quite nicely. Make it so.
Ithildin	Posted - 2005.10.13 13:05:00 - [12] Originally by: Sorja Originally by: Ithildin light missiles are good against larger ships due to range.... at 20km light missiles does a lot more damage than any frigate turret in game! Even 125's on my Harpy do more damage than light missiles at 20km. And at any range a gunship can kill interceptors while light missiles can't (unless the inty is drunk). On top of that, range is actually a problem for most Caldari ships since they don't have the agility to work out their optimal range, so it's pretty pointless judgeing of a ship efficiency from it's theoretical range. There are cruisers than can dictate their range to the Caldari AFs. Ok, the Harpy is the exception from the 20km thingy. My point is that at those ranges you need to start loading lesser ammo into turrets to keep up, while missiles keep their ammo loaded. And it's not an agility problem. Really! If anything it's a speed problem. Also, Caldari AFs aren't the only ones with a little bit of a speed/agility problem, and that's not even taking the Vagabond into account! I've never had a problem dictating range with any assault frig (except maybe the minnie ones) when I was in... well... any ship but assault frigs. Now... to give all AF their deserved second hull bonus (because the resistance bonus should be counted as a class bonus)... wheat barley kill anything? are you oats of your mind? I corn belive you just said that, rice I'm off to bed
TuRtLe HeAd	Posted - 2005.10.13 13:10:00 - [13] Edited by: TuRtLe HeAd on 13/10/2005 13:11:04 /NOT SIGNED Another Win ship suggestion. Its already got 2 Missile bays 1 Extra would be ok, (if it got penalized to its Sheild bonus) What next ? 1 less slot for stealth bombers and another one for the manticore . I Love my Hawk Just how it is ! Its not a missile boat, and nor should it be one !
xJESTERx	Posted - 2005.10.13 13:14:00 - [14] if im not mistaken its minnie ships that split their slots 1/2 missile 1/2 turret, not caldari. indeed hawk should become a missile boat. but its other slots + bonuses need switching.
Plasmatique	Posted - 2005.10.13 13:20:00 - [15] Originally by: Rex Martell Make the Hawk a missle only boat and make the Raptor a turret only boat /Signed and to Bazman's concerns, give the hawk a missile range bonus then..or something, missile speed, whatever ..................................... Proud Owner of a Navy Issue Raven
FlameHell	Posted - 2005.10.13 13:34:00 - [16] so... you want all caldari ships can be fitted with turrets or missiles, having both full turrets and missiles hardpoints?!! why other races can't?!! a non-caldari pilot have to skill caldari if he wants to use missiles why a caldari should not do the same?
Kaeten	Posted - 2005.10.13 13:40:00 - [17] Give the ares another turrut slot and a weapon bonus.
Linavin	Posted - 2005.10.13 13:47:00 - [18] If your using your Hawk as a turret boat you seriously need to consider your overall strategy. If you love turrets you may as well invest in a harpy. and Signed/ Quote: OMG. Dev's that talk to their subscribers? Up with Eve down with WoW!
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.10.13 13:54:00 - [19] Originally by: Sorja I recently flew a Hawk again to try some close range fittings, and, tbh, I don't see the ship being worth flying with such a sluggish behaviour. MWD TII or AB TII, all the same: the ship doesn't reach is top speed (if we can call his speed 'top') fast enough, I barely see any difference with my Eagle. TBH, even with 4 launchers I don't see the ship being very good. Light missiles don't do enough damage, they are no threat to interceptors and against larger targets (where hitting or missing is irrelevant) small rails do more damage over time. The Hawk, if it went all missiles, should have some serious damage bonus and explosion signature radius bonus (like the Manticore) to be effective, on top of a weight reduction. On market: Harpy 25mill, Hawk 8mill. There must be a reson. hawk atm is like a souped up merlin: damage is not that much better, althou the durability and the sensor resistances are good. Think the best shield tanker in the AF world, as good as, or even better than, the jaguar. so yes, a good change to the hawk would be to make him pure missile boat, decrease mass of the ship and/or increase cap by 10%. why the +10%? Why not a Afrig that can double as a missile shield tanker or a ECM Afrig? ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Kai Lae	Posted - 2005.10.13 14:04:00 - [20] Edited by: Kai Lae on 13/10/2005 14:05:21 How to fix the hawk: +1 launcher hardpoint, +1 mid slot. You don't want no turret points because this gives no flexibility in setups. The 10% missile speed vs 10% gun range would also be nice. Also change it so that it uses the MK2 bonuses, meaning resistance increases per level to shields and ditch the shield boost bonus. Other stuff in this thread: Retribution: Just fine the way it is thank you very much. Retribution's problems are based on the fact that the vengeance is a another poor AF and therefore there's not much choice in the matter. Solution fix the vengeance so it has +1 low slot. Raptor: +1 turret hardpoint, change so it has the same grid and CPU as a crow. Ares: Change so it has the same grid and CPU as a claw or crusader.
Johnny Johnny	Posted - 2005.10.13 14:22:00 - [21] If this idea does make it to testing, I believe the bonus should be a ROF bonus, instead of a velocity bonus. My ROF on any of the missile boats, 'cept the rocket kessie, still sucks, compared to the small hybrids. ------------- Johnny Johnny Originally by: Deja Thoris I'm not doubting you. I'll go further and call you a liar.
Simon Illian	Posted - 2005.10.13 15:06:00 - [22] Harpy / hawk : same slot distribution ... 1 less hig for harpy harpy bigger than the hawk in regard of PG/CPU Harp : 4 Gun, 1 Missles Hawl : 3 Gun , 2 Missle make the hawk : 2 Gun, 3 Missiles =>keep his better tank ability (shidl bonus or resistance) =>keep the ROF bonus =>Keep the optimal bonus for gun, he has 2 slot. so you have a different ship than the harpy, he can do other stuff ... just rever -1turret +1missiles ---- Originally by: ►Skellibjalla◄ I em onnly sefen yers old...
Tul 'Kas	Posted - 2005.10.13 16:24:00 - [23] I agree with the idea of making the hawk a more focused missile platform. Even though I don't fly Caldari assaults, I think I'm safe agreeing that: Mixed ship bonuses and split slot layout tend to make for an inferior ship. Harpy looks far better on paper, and is far more popular - atm there doesn't appear to be a role for the hawk that isn't better filled by a different ship. Caldari have a missile boat in every other ship class, a missile AF would be in keeping with their racial design. That said, the OP's opening argument is flawed, stuff like this gets under my skin: Originally by: Rells In all races there are bassically 2 assault frigates. One speced in one type of racial specialty and anothzer favoring the other type. The example you cite of gallente is the ONLY race that fits that statement. Minnie assaults are 4 turret/1 launcher and 3 turret/1 launcher, nothing but projectile bonuses. Amarr assaults are 4 turret/0 launcher and 3 turret/1 launcher, nothing but laser bonuses (except the vengeance's cap recharge rate bonus). Could you please not make broad generalizations without checking ALL your facts? Thanks, I'll now leave you all to discussing the stats of your dream hawk again.
Doomdutch	Posted - 2005.10.13 16:39:00 - [24] Originally by: Rex Martell -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Make the Hawk a missle only boat and make the Raptor a turret only boat -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- /signed
Liza	Posted - 2005.10.13 22:40:00 - [25] /signed
Hanns	Posted - 2005.10.13 22:45:00 - [26] Edited by: Hanns on 13/10/2005 22:45:00 This thread is similar to one i posted a few days ago, from the reactions both threads have had, i see that most people think there should be a missile boat AF, and ive not see nany opposition to the idea.
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.10.13 22:53:00 - [27] the hawk should become a missile ship (based on the kestrel hull preferably, but otherwise just its stats) however, this shouldn't be the only change: all the lower grade AFs (hawk, jag, vengeance, ishkur) should get 11 slots like the higher ones (possible exception of ish due to dronebay) -- This Zig. For great justice!
Weirda	Posted - 2005.10.13 23:24:00 - [28] /signed maybe different reason then others though. as a minmatar specialized pilot, have missile skills very high. would love to climb into a missile assault frig (and would even train Origami Bird Frigate 5 for that), but currently, there isn't one. Weirda is amarr specialized too - but have no hybrid skills and don't want them either. Sure, small hybrid spec is easily achievable, but would prefer to stay in weirda's racial frigs if was going to be flying turret boat (can't be assed to have every different type of ammo lying around). it is really just a playstyle option that isn't available at the assault frig level (frig/cruiser/bs level, yes, interceptor level, yes, hac level, yes - even if many aren't happy with that one). Originally by: Bazman The Rate of fire of the Hawks missles, assuming you have rapid launch 5 and Standard missle spec to a high level, will be bloody insane. You will be able to slaughter most other assaults. But the point against ceptors is valid, you just wont kill them without the guns. well - there are ways to force ceptors into you webber range (even do that with certain turret setup on slow moving ship) - so would approach it the same with Assault Missile Boat. speed is the main reason that ceptors are invulnerable +5 to standards... not sig radius really. Why not just use rockets then? Simple, you only NEED to force the ceptors into webber range, the others you can start killing further out. Sure, standard missile do less damage then rocket, as do Arties vs Autocannons, so don't really see the point. if you want everyone in rocket range then just fly a rocket crow! anyhow - would love to see a missile boat available at the Assault Ship (frigate) level. -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed) <END TRANSMISSION>
Meridius	Posted - 2005.10.13 23:26:00 - [29] Edited by: Meridius on 13/10/2005 23:26:56 Hey at least you guys have the Harpy We have 2 sucky af's That said, 4 launchers on the Hawk sounds cool and fits in with having one gunboat and a missile ship. ________________________________________________________
keepiru	Posted - 2005.10.13 23:30:00 - [30] Edited by: keepiru on 13/10/2005 23:30:09 Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 13/10/2005 23:26:56 Hey at least you guys have the Harpy We have 2 sucky af's That's cause amarr AFs get hit harder than the others by having one fake bonus. The necessary cap use for guns bonus leaves only 2 real bonuses to play with, thats the same amount of bonuses all other races frigs get at t1 level. And, yes to a missile hawk. ------------- WTB: a Faction Micro Smartbomb :P

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