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Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
16
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ciao,
I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears: http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/
Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD.
___
On a different matter: minigame with scattered loot in anomalies, to "push" people to fly together. CCP, please, acknowledge once and forever that some of us (actually *a LOT* of us in this game) just like the solo stile. We don't want (you don't need) to be "pushed" toward the coop. game, we made a choice to fly solo, we like it this way. We'll keep doing it this way, no matter how hard you push... The space for the solo player is already thin in this game, no need to make it thinner. You can't force us to do something we don't like, so please don't get to the point where you force us to quit the game. |
Ravnik
Choke-Hold
7160
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN?
Applies to a number a things i imagine The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.......... |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
296
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Removing tedium is not even in the same ballpark as removing difficulty. Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice. |
Niyon Miromme
2751
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ravnik wrote:sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN? Applies to a number a things i imagine
BOOM, MIND EXPLODED Don't hate me for beeing scottish, hate yourself for not beeing scottishGäó |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1720
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
They removed the deep space probe. So actually they made it harder. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Darth Kilth
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
81
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
It would be more fun if it wasn't so bloody repetetive, heck, just adding the ability to pre set formations would have made me happy.
But difficutly being fun? depends on who you aks.
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Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
16
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ravnik wrote:sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN? Applies to a number a things i imagine What I said is: there are things that are fun because are hard. Hunting/probing/searching is among them.
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John DaiSho
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
110
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote: Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD.
Edit: Forum ate my post: TL:DR version: Lots of clicking doesn-¦t make anything more difficult. PI isn-¦t, invention isn-¦t and it-¦s not the reason scanning is hard. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:Ciao,
On a different matter: minigame with scattered loot in anomalies, to "push" people to fly together. CCP, please, acknowledge once and forever that some of us (actually *a LOT* of us in this game) just like the solo stile. We don't want (you don't need) to be "pushed" toward the coop. game, we made a choice to fly solo, we like it this way. We'll keep doing it this way, no matter how hard you push... The space for the solo player is already thin in this game, no need to make it thinner. You can't force us to do something we don't like, so please don't get to the point where you force us to quit the game.
Mini-games, hate those that's a sign of turning a game into a theme park.
Part of the reason I got fed-up with GW2 was the addition of retro mini-games and their so called living story.
Agreed games companies should not force players to interact it leads to a false feeling environment, there should be room for solo players even though it is an MMO.
But CCP has tried to get people to do things in the past and it usually fails.
I always say, you can't make people do something that they don't want to do (certainly in a game). If you leave them no room to manoeuvre they will simply unsub. |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
795
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:Ciao, I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears: http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD.
Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing.
Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however.
yk
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Lt Kelson
Howling Stones Mining Corporation
0
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
There was a bit of a learning curve especially with knowing about dsp signatures and quick & optimal probe formations, it seems that is all done for you now with the new scanner in pre set formations.
Wouldnt say it was difficult before but then its the same with most things in eve like learning what angular velocity is and how it effect turrets but not missiles & why, knowing is half the battle. |
Vega Umbranox
Eternal Darkness. Fatal Ascension
3
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Posted - 2013.05.14 12:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
I agree if it was a click and insta win then it would diminish the fun. but i dont think its fun BECAUSE its hard even makes sense. not directly at least.
if that was the case you wouldnt be playing eve but instead doing slave labor or digging through a brick wall with a tooth pick. both of them are very hard....
people keep worrying they are "dumbing down the game" and other nonesense which is untrue. even if it were true the game has such a high learning curve small optimizations would barely dent it.. it has room to spare.. plenty |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1429
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Gil Roland wrote:Ciao, I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears: http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD. Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing. Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however. yk
Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 sets of predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
Improving NPE |
Seven Koskanaiken
Nothing Is True Everything Is Permitted
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Well I never found it hard, at first it's hard but it's like driving, after a while you stop thinking about it. If they wanted to get rid of repetitive stupid tasks how about a BULK INSTALL OF INVENT JOB |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
I've tried the new scanning system on the test server, my conclusion its it going to be way more fun, and way less annoying, you have no idea how close I've came to punching my monitor due to the current ******** scanning UI... I do a lot of exploration, and the thing that always annoyed me is the time consuming task of fiddling with probe formation constantly each time I must reduce the range of the probes and there is always **** that gets in the way.
Yes it will make it easier but only because it will be less stressful which makes it more fun, op must be one of these people who like to make things as awkward as possible even though its going to annoy the **** out of most others... |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
45
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:YuuKnow wrote:Gil Roland wrote:Ciao, I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears: http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD. Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing. Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however. yk Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
Yeah man lets all clean our houses with a toothbrush, cut the lawn with a pair of scissors, drive our cars backwards and....
No.
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Ravnik
Choke-Hold
7163
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:Ravnik wrote:sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN? Applies to a number a things i imagine What I said is: there are things that are fun because are hard. Hunting/probing/searching is among them.
some people...
The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.......... |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:Ravnik wrote:sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN? Applies to a number a things i imagine What I said is: there are things that are fun because are hard. Hunting/probing/searching is among them.
Dude... It was never HARD, it was just annoying and noone is going to be at an advantage when the new changes come, it will just be less frustrating. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
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Posted - 2013.05.14 13:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:[quote=YuuKnow][quote=Gil Roland]Ciao,
[quote=Brooks Puuntai]
Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
I wouldn't think brain surgery is easy even for an expert as still carries its risks. But I do agree with the rest of what you've said, especially about the optimized predefined formations. |
ISquishWorms
205
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote:Removing tedium is not even in the same ballpark as removing difficulty.
Yet this is arguement does not hold up if you take into consideration the new mini hacking game which is more of a click fest than the way the existing probe system works. . |
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Julius Priscus
105
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
you know what else is hard and fun??
give you a clue...
master
and bations. -»\_(pâä)_/-»-á Sup cracka ! |
ISquishWorms
205
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Julius Priscus wrote:you know what else is hard and fun??
give you a clue...
master
and bations.
Looking at your corp title I guess you would know all about that? . |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
301
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
ISquishWorms wrote:Grey Azorria wrote:Removing tedium is not even in the same ballpark as removing difficulty. Yet this is arguement does not hold up if you take into consideration the new mini hacking game which is more of a click fest than the way the existing probe system works. Removing tedium (as you call it) yet whilst adding more? Is setting out your probes that tedious really? I mean it takes what probably under a second maybe two tops for someone who is experienced and had good practice at scanning to do. Also having laid them out to do the initial scan do you need to change the formation much if at all to do follow up scans? I know having laid out the probes once I keep the formation the way it is for subsequent scans so the only real saving is on the initial scan itself which like I said takes seconds with practice. Under a second... Right... I'll just gloss over that particular inaccuracy for the moment.
About the new hacking minigame, firstly it has absolutely nothing to do with how the probing system works, secondly it requires more skill than putting some cubes in a circle, and thirdly it is infinitely better than the previous hacking system which was quite possibly the most tedious and 'dumbest' mechanic in all of EVE. Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice. |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
676
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ravnik wrote:sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN? Applies to a number a things i imagine if it needs some WORK it makes some difference between players. Remove it and you lost something.
Like in case of scanning: there was EFFORT to place probes right way, there was skills to do it right and fast. Some people could do it faster and better than others. It's no more. Something is lost. |
ISquishWorms
205
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote:ISquishWorms wrote:Grey Azorria wrote:Removing tedium is not even in the same ballpark as removing difficulty. Yet this is arguement does not hold up if you take into consideration the new mini hacking game which is more of a click fest than the way the existing probe system works. Removing tedium (as you call it) yet whilst adding more? Is setting out your probes that tedious really? I mean it takes what probably under a second maybe two tops for someone who is experienced and had good practice at scanning to do. Also having laid them out to do the initial scan do you need to change the formation much if at all to do follow up scans? I know having laid out the probes once I keep the formation the way it is for subsequent scans so the only real saving is on the initial scan itself which like I said takes seconds with practice. Under a second... Right... I'll just gloss over that particular inaccuracy for the moment. About the new hacking minigame, firstly it has absolutely nothing to do with how the probing system works, secondly it requires more skill than putting some cubes in a circle, and thirdly it is infinitely better than the previous hacking system which was quite possibly the most tedious and 'dumbest' mechanic in all of EVE.
Nothing to do with the probing changes please? You need to probe to find the hacking sites the changes listed to the hacking sites are under the probing/exploration change list within the same thread. I guess we will have to agree to disagree that these two changes are completely unrelated.
I accept under a second to lay out probes was a little bit of an exageration but really at best we are talking about a few seconds of time saved at most for the experienced scanners.
. |
PerrinAybarra
Hedron Industries Hegemonous Pandorum
1
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Posted - 2013.05.14 14:47:00 -
[26] - Quote
honestly they should bring back probing to the way it was when first introduced and skill in scanner use actually mattered. I remember a guy hat used to scan people out before pobes with just doing the math. |
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
846
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
The only things that annoys me is the "loot" blowing up all over the place thing and the stupid clickfest, if I wanted to play something like that I can do it for free in the 20.000+ Java games targeted for mothers at home, with much shinier colors and better sounds. So NO ty ...
I havent tried the new formations but after a while I have learned a set formation that is my favorite and in a sense allows me to scan quicker, I will probably have to relearn a bit, but thats ok, i-¦ll adapt, but forcing me to explore with others to gather the loot is just dumb. I have been here for 8 years and honestly, despite some beginning forays into corps and a shadow stint in an alliance, I dont really like much being with people due to my irregular sudden afk playing habits.
I can group up and bunch up with people, but honestly, I enjoy eve more at my extremely morbid and slow place.
Clicking all over when the cans ejected looked extremely annoying, at least from what I gleaned from the Fanfest video. Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
I love tiger ears. Everybody read her blog |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
799
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:15:00 -
[29] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
Nah, scanning is probably one of the least complex in terms of player skill involved of any other activity of Eve. Just takes one youtube and you've got it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8n8KamI0Ag.
That is all.
Its nice to have personal styles and to have opprotunities to improve technique however. I'm in favor of being able to save formation for customized scan techniques.
yk |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1436
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Nah, scanning is probably one of the least complex in terms of player skill involved of any other activity of Eve. Just takes one youtube and you've got it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8n8KamI0Ag.That is all. Its nice to have personal styles and to have opprotunities to improve technique however. I'm in favor of being able to save formation for customized scan techniques. yk
Yet they are not changing how scanning works overall, they are only making it easier. Pretty much removing what little skill is needed. Makes it pretty pointless at this point. People talk about things being repetitive, without realizing that Eve as a whole is repetitive by design. Improving NPE |
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