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Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:09:00 -
[1] - Quote
Ciao,
I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears: http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/
Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD.
___
On a different matter: minigame with scattered loot in anomalies, to "push" people to fly together. CCP, please, acknowledge once and forever that some of us (actually *a LOT* of us in this game) just like the solo stile. We don't want (you don't need) to be "pushed" toward the coop. game, we made a choice to fly solo, we like it this way. We'll keep doing it this way, no matter how hard you push... The space for the solo player is already thin in this game, no need to make it thinner. You can't force us to do something we don't like, so please don't get to the point where you force us to quit the game. |
Ravnik
Choke-Hold
7160
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:19:00 -
[2] - Quote
sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN?
Applies to a number a things i imagine The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.......... |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
296
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:20:00 -
[3] - Quote
Removing tedium is not even in the same ballpark as removing difficulty. Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice. |
Niyon Miromme
2751
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Ravnik wrote:sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN? Applies to a number a things i imagine
BOOM, MIND EXPLODED Don't hate me for beeing scottish, hate yourself for not beeing scottishGäó |
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
1720
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:22:00 -
[5] - Quote
They removed the deep space probe. So actually they made it harder. Sovereignty and Population New Mining Mechanics |
Darth Kilth
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
81
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
It would be more fun if it wasn't so bloody repetetive, heck, just adding the ability to pre set formations would have made me happy.
But difficutly being fun? depends on who you aks.
|
Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Ravnik wrote:sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN? Applies to a number a things i imagine What I said is: there are things that are fun because are hard. Hunting/probing/searching is among them.
|
John DaiSho
Applied Creations The Fendahlian Collective
110
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:28:00 -
[8] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote: Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD.
Edit: Forum ate my post: TL:DR version: Lots of clicking doesn-¦t make anything more difficult. PI isn-¦t, invention isn-¦t and it-¦s not the reason scanning is hard. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:Ciao,
On a different matter: minigame with scattered loot in anomalies, to "push" people to fly together. CCP, please, acknowledge once and forever that some of us (actually *a LOT* of us in this game) just like the solo stile. We don't want (you don't need) to be "pushed" toward the coop. game, we made a choice to fly solo, we like it this way. We'll keep doing it this way, no matter how hard you push... The space for the solo player is already thin in this game, no need to make it thinner. You can't force us to do something we don't like, so please don't get to the point where you force us to quit the game.
Mini-games, hate those that's a sign of turning a game into a theme park.
Part of the reason I got fed-up with GW2 was the addition of retro mini-games and their so called living story.
Agreed games companies should not force players to interact it leads to a false feeling environment, there should be room for solo players even though it is an MMO.
But CCP has tried to get people to do things in the past and it usually fails.
I always say, you can't make people do something that they don't want to do (certainly in a game). If you leave them no room to manoeuvre they will simply unsub. |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
795
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:34:00 -
[10] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:Ciao, I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears: http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD.
Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing.
Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however.
yk
|
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Lt Kelson
Howling Stones Mining Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:36:00 -
[11] - Quote
There was a bit of a learning curve especially with knowing about dsp signatures and quick & optimal probe formations, it seems that is all done for you now with the new scanner in pre set formations.
Wouldnt say it was difficult before but then its the same with most things in eve like learning what angular velocity is and how it effect turrets but not missiles & why, knowing is half the battle. |
Vega Umbranox
Eternal Darkness. Fatal Ascension
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:38:00 -
[12] - Quote
I agree if it was a click and insta win then it would diminish the fun. but i dont think its fun BECAUSE its hard even makes sense. not directly at least.
if that was the case you wouldnt be playing eve but instead doing slave labor or digging through a brick wall with a tooth pick. both of them are very hard....
people keep worrying they are "dumbing down the game" and other nonesense which is untrue. even if it were true the game has such a high learning curve small optimizations would barely dent it.. it has room to spare.. plenty |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1429
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:45:00 -
[13] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Gil Roland wrote:Ciao, I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears: http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD. Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing. Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however. yk
Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 sets of predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
Improving NPE |
Seven Koskanaiken
Nothing Is True Everything Is Permitted
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 12:45:00 -
[14] - Quote
Well I never found it hard, at first it's hard but it's like driving, after a while you stop thinking about it. If they wanted to get rid of repetitive stupid tasks how about a BULK INSTALL OF INVENT JOB |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
I've tried the new scanning system on the test server, my conclusion its it going to be way more fun, and way less annoying, you have no idea how close I've came to punching my monitor due to the current ******** scanning UI... I do a lot of exploration, and the thing that always annoyed me is the time consuming task of fiddling with probe formation constantly each time I must reduce the range of the probes and there is always **** that gets in the way.
Yes it will make it easier but only because it will be less stressful which makes it more fun, op must be one of these people who like to make things as awkward as possible even though its going to annoy the **** out of most others... |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:23:00 -
[16] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:YuuKnow wrote:Gil Roland wrote:Ciao, I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears: http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD. Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing. Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however. yk Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
Yeah man lets all clean our houses with a toothbrush, cut the lawn with a pair of scissors, drive our cars backwards and....
No.
|
Ravnik
Choke-Hold
7163
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:28:00 -
[17] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:Ravnik wrote:sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN? Applies to a number a things i imagine What I said is: there are things that are fun because are hard. Hunting/probing/searching is among them.
some people...
The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long - and you have burned so very, very brightly.......... |
LittleTerror
Illuminated Foundation Trust
45
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:31:00 -
[18] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:Ravnik wrote:sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN? Applies to a number a things i imagine What I said is: there are things that are fun because are hard. Hunting/probing/searching is among them.
Dude... It was never HARD, it was just annoying and noone is going to be at an advantage when the new changes come, it will just be less frustrating. |
Six Six Six
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 13:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:[quote=YuuKnow][quote=Gil Roland]Ciao,
[quote=Brooks Puuntai]
Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
I wouldn't think brain surgery is easy even for an expert as still carries its risks. But I do agree with the rest of what you've said, especially about the optimized predefined formations. |
ISquishWorms
205
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:01:00 -
[20] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote:Removing tedium is not even in the same ballpark as removing difficulty.
Yet this is arguement does not hold up if you take into consideration the new mini hacking game which is more of a click fest than the way the existing probe system works. . |
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Julius Priscus
105
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:05:00 -
[21] - Quote
you know what else is hard and fun??
give you a clue...
master
and bations. -»\_(pâä)_/-»-á Sup cracka ! |
ISquishWorms
205
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:15:00 -
[22] - Quote
Julius Priscus wrote:you know what else is hard and fun??
give you a clue...
master
and bations.
Looking at your corp title I guess you would know all about that? . |
Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
301
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:17:00 -
[23] - Quote
ISquishWorms wrote:Grey Azorria wrote:Removing tedium is not even in the same ballpark as removing difficulty. Yet this is arguement does not hold up if you take into consideration the new mini hacking game which is more of a click fest than the way the existing probe system works. Removing tedium (as you call it) yet whilst adding more? Is setting out your probes that tedious really? I mean it takes what probably under a second maybe two tops for someone who is experienced and had good practice at scanning to do. Also having laid them out to do the initial scan do you need to change the formation much if at all to do follow up scans? I know having laid out the probes once I keep the formation the way it is for subsequent scans so the only real saving is on the initial scan itself which like I said takes seconds with practice. Under a second... Right... I'll just gloss over that particular inaccuracy for the moment.
About the new hacking minigame, firstly it has absolutely nothing to do with how the probing system works, secondly it requires more skill than putting some cubes in a circle, and thirdly it is infinitely better than the previous hacking system which was quite possibly the most tedious and 'dumbest' mechanic in all of EVE. Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.
Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice. |
March rabbit
epTa Team Inc.
676
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:20:00 -
[24] - Quote
Ravnik wrote:sooooooo..what you are saying is if its HARD then its FUN? Applies to a number a things i imagine if it needs some WORK it makes some difference between players. Remove it and you lost something.
Like in case of scanning: there was EFFORT to place probes right way, there was skills to do it right and fast. Some people could do it faster and better than others. It's no more. Something is lost. |
ISquishWorms
205
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:29:00 -
[25] - Quote
Grey Azorria wrote:ISquishWorms wrote:Grey Azorria wrote:Removing tedium is not even in the same ballpark as removing difficulty. Yet this is arguement does not hold up if you take into consideration the new mini hacking game which is more of a click fest than the way the existing probe system works. Removing tedium (as you call it) yet whilst adding more? Is setting out your probes that tedious really? I mean it takes what probably under a second maybe two tops for someone who is experienced and had good practice at scanning to do. Also having laid them out to do the initial scan do you need to change the formation much if at all to do follow up scans? I know having laid out the probes once I keep the formation the way it is for subsequent scans so the only real saving is on the initial scan itself which like I said takes seconds with practice. Under a second... Right... I'll just gloss over that particular inaccuracy for the moment. About the new hacking minigame, firstly it has absolutely nothing to do with how the probing system works, secondly it requires more skill than putting some cubes in a circle, and thirdly it is infinitely better than the previous hacking system which was quite possibly the most tedious and 'dumbest' mechanic in all of EVE.
Nothing to do with the probing changes please? You need to probe to find the hacking sites the changes listed to the hacking sites are under the probing/exploration change list within the same thread. I guess we will have to agree to disagree that these two changes are completely unrelated.
I accept under a second to lay out probes was a little bit of an exageration but really at best we are talking about a few seconds of time saved at most for the experienced scanners.
. |
PerrinAybarra
Hedron Industries Hegemonous Pandorum
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 14:47:00 -
[26] - Quote
honestly they should bring back probing to the way it was when first introduced and skill in scanner use actually mattered. I remember a guy hat used to scan people out before pobes with just doing the math. |
Brujo Loco
Brujeria Teologica
846
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 15:57:00 -
[27] - Quote
The only things that annoys me is the "loot" blowing up all over the place thing and the stupid clickfest, if I wanted to play something like that I can do it for free in the 20.000+ Java games targeted for mothers at home, with much shinier colors and better sounds. So NO ty ...
I havent tried the new formations but after a while I have learned a set formation that is my favorite and in a sense allows me to scan quicker, I will probably have to relearn a bit, but thats ok, i-¦ll adapt, but forcing me to explore with others to gather the loot is just dumb. I have been here for 8 years and honestly, despite some beginning forays into corps and a shadow stint in an alliance, I dont really like much being with people due to my irregular sudden afk playing habits.
I can group up and bunch up with people, but honestly, I enjoy eve more at my extremely morbid and slow place.
Clicking all over when the cans ejected looked extremely annoying, at least from what I gleaned from the Fanfest video. Inner Sayings of BrujoLoco: http://eve-files.com/sig/brujoloco |
Karsa Egivand
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
165
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 16:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
I love tiger ears. Everybody read her blog |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
799
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 19:15:00 -
[29] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
Nah, scanning is probably one of the least complex in terms of player skill involved of any other activity of Eve. Just takes one youtube and you've got it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8n8KamI0Ag.
That is all.
Its nice to have personal styles and to have opprotunities to improve technique however. I'm in favor of being able to save formation for customized scan techniques.
yk |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1436
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:04:00 -
[30] - Quote
YuuKnow wrote:Nah, scanning is probably one of the least complex in terms of player skill involved of any other activity of Eve. Just takes one youtube and you've got it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8n8KamI0Ag.That is all. Its nice to have personal styles and to have opprotunities to improve technique however. I'm in favor of being able to save formation for customized scan techniques. yk
Yet they are not changing how scanning works overall, they are only making it easier. Pretty much removing what little skill is needed. Makes it pretty pointless at this point. People talk about things being repetitive, without realizing that Eve as a whole is repetitive by design. Improving NPE |
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Lt Kelson
Howling Stones Mining Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:28:00 -
[31] - Quote
I should add that if you found the current scanning mechanics tedious but the new ones ok then you may of been doing it wrong.
Only thing really changed was the initial multiple probe launch and probe formation which if you were quick enough could combine making it ten seconds if you did it perfect, maybe 20 if you messed up a bit.
hardly tedious unless you have a short attention span.
The rest of the scanning can get tedious I agree, especially if you don't have a dsp to cut out most of the unnecessary signatures *cough* |
Rayzilla Zaraki
Tandokuno
27
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:33:00 -
[32] - Quote
If a civilization can build big spaceships that go from star to star to blow each other up, I think they'd be capable of writing a macro that automatically puts probes into the proper formation.
Moving each individual probe to put it in the proper place as your resolution gets finer and finer isn't difficulty, its tedium.
As for mini-games - I'm in a love-hate wait-and-see mode there. They could be interesting and add to the game. If nothing blew up, no one would buy your stuff. |
floating in space
University of Caille Gallente Federation
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:46:00 -
[33] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote: Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing.
That seems like it's actually pretty hard.
At least compared to moving little probes around in a video game. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1436
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 20:47:00 -
[34] - Quote
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:If a civilization can build big spaceships that go from star to star to blow each other up, I think they'd be capable of writing a macro that automatically puts probes into the proper formation.
Moving each individual probe to put it in the proper place as your resolution gets finer and finer isn't difficulty, its tedium.
As for mini-games - I'm in a love-hate wait-and-see mode there. They could be interesting and add to the game.
It's a game. You could also say in a civilization that can build big spaceships could also create a AI that automatically does triangulation, or do everything else for you. However that would be a pretty boring game.
The new system doesn't change the tedium of probing by design, it only makes it easier. It being difficult is up to perspective. Being able to set up formations in a proper and timely fashion was pretty much the only thing made it "difficult". Personally I never found probing to be tedious outside of having to click the probe launcher 4-8 times to get the probes out. To each his own I guess.
floating in space wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote: Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing.
That seems like it's actually pretty hard. At least compared to moving little probes around in a video game.
Yes it was a bad analogy, I know. Also it wasn't a direct comparison. Improving NPE |
Obvious Cyno
The Scope Gallente Federation
56
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
Joins a massively multiplayer online game, famed for its single shards universe with huge battles involving thousands of players..
Moaned that he wants to play solo. |
Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 21:36:00 -
[36] - Quote
Obvious Cyno wrote:Joins a massively multiplayer online game, famed for its single shards universe with huge battles involving thousands of players..
Moaned that he wants to play solo.
I like the game, you like the lag: de gustibus non disputandum est.
On a side note, MMORPG doesn't mean "MMORPG in Corporations", it only means that you engage (or "can" engage) humans on the other side of the screen. I like that part of the MMORPG, but on my side of the barricades I prefere to be by myself, or with a maximum of one or two colleagues (if necessary). The point is though, that this game *need* both the solo player AND the big corporations. My post is not against big corps, but in favor of solo players. |
M'ktakh
Republic University Minmatar Republic
8
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 22:06:00 -
[37] - Quote
Difficulty coming from a bad UI is not difficulty, its a chore. A drudge you have to slog through to get to anything good.
I know the EVE userbase has a legendary tolerance, nay, perverse love for bad UI design, but removing tedium is a good thing.
Scanning will still be as hard or as easy as it was before, removing the moving of probes will not change that. |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1436
|
Posted - 2013.05.14 22:45:00 -
[38] - Quote
M'ktakh wrote:Difficulty coming from a bad UI is not difficulty, its a chore. A drudge you have to slog through to get to anything good.
I know the EVE userbase has a legendary tolerance, nay, perverse love for bad UI design, but removing tedium is a good thing.
Scanning will still be as hard or as easy as it was before, removing the moving of probes will not change that.
This would imply the changes where UI based, which they are not. Adding in predefined "clusters", removing DSP, and limiting advanced probing techniques is a mechanic change not UI. The UI is still relatively the same.
Improving NPE |
Lt Kelson
Howling Stones Mining Corporation
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 09:17:00 -
[39] - Quote
Rayzilla Zaraki wrote:
Moving each individual probe to put it in the proper place as your resolution gets finer and finer isn't difficulty, its tedium.
Do people really not know about shift clicking to move all the probes at once? you know you can also change the all the probe sizes at once too?
I like the insta launch probes I guess but the preset formations really are for lazy people who couldn't even be bothered to look at the short-cuts tab or do the tutorial, why should they be rewarded?
On the plus side im sure d-scan+1 combat probe scan may be more deadly as you will get little warning. |
Octoven
Phoenix Productions Headshot Gaming
128
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 12:00:00 -
[40] - Quote
Not another anti-odyssey thread >.> I am glad they are fixing and addressing some of the concerns with the new probing system, but it does have the potential to be more efficient then the current one. It never really made sense to hold shift, move probe ranges, hold alt, adjust probes toward the center. Now you can do both those functions and dont even need to press shift/alt which to me does NOT take from the difficulty of it, just makes it a more streamlined and efficient design.
I will admit though, I think the base signals can be dialed down some. With DSPs being removed, it really isn't necessary to adjust to little deviation as possible before skills come into play.
As for the hacking mini-game. I love it, going to radar and mag sites is really a two step process. Unless you have a T3, you are condemned to scan down a site with a buzzard or something, bookmark the structure, go back and dock, grab your combat ship (that you have to drag with you), fly out and shoot ****, re-dock and grab your buzzard again, fly back out, and sit with a module turned on doing nothing but waiting for a chance of success for you to open the can, loot, and fly away. That doesn't really seem like exploring, its more like a simplistic mission.
However, the mini-game gives you an interactive interface that provides more of an exploratory feel to it. Each node you click you don't know if its a defense system or a utility slot. Either way, I prefer something that I can do to just sitting there and running a module over and over until a can unlocks.
The even nicer part about the probing interface is hiding all the probes that arent at the center. If I am using a pinpoint formation and only need to adjust one probe to move them all...why do I need to even see the others? However, you can over-ride this and show them by pressing shift. |
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Wacktopia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
510
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 13:31:00 -
[41] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:Scanning is fun because is HARD
I agree with this, however, placing probes is more annoying and repetitive than outright hard. The proposed changes take away an annoying and repetitive step. Once you know how to place probes in the correct way, it just becomes annoying to have to re-do it.
The hard/fun part for me is zero-ing in on a target before they move. Hiding the probes at the right time, etc.
Personally I would like to see a system where you can save your own deployment configurations rather than the default that is proposed. Looks like the yellow quafe shirt is more popular than I thought ;) |
YuuKnow
Terra-Formers
802
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 17:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:YuuKnow wrote:Nah, scanning is probably one of the least complex in terms of player skill involved of any other activity of Eve. Just takes one youtube and you've got it. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8n8KamI0Ag.That is all. Its nice to have personal styles and to have opprotunities to improve technique however. I'm in favor of being able to save formation for customized scan techniques. yk Yet they are not changing how scanning works overall, they are only making it easier. Pretty much removing what little skill is needed. Makes it pretty pointless at this point. People talk about things being repetitive, without realizing that Eve as a whole is repetitive by design.
If you call having to hit F3 8 times and then drag the probes to the formation you want for each system 'skill' then your sense of challenge is strange. Better would be to hit 'launchprobe formation' and then use your skill in interpreting what you see.
yk |
Haulie Berry
723
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 17:37:00 -
[43] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:
Scanning is fun because is HARD.
Save me some time, here.
Do all of the conclusions follow from this faulty premise? Because I don't remember the last time I felt remotely challenged by the scanning system. |
Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 18:58:00 -
[44] - Quote
Haulie Berry wrote:Gil Roland wrote:
Scanning is fun because is HARD.
Save me some time, here. Do all of the conclusions follow from this faulty premise? Because I don't remember the last time I felt remotely challenged by the scanning system.
When posting in a 3 pages thread, you shouldn't jump to the last page and rush a reply. Other people before your time-saving response, have explained what "hard" means in this context. Proper formation of probes in space can (will) save you time in resolving the signature. The way you do it is something personal, is something you learn with time, patience and dedication, is something you're proud of, is something that can make the difference especially if you are hunting someone, is something hard that you don't learn the first day you lunch your probes.
We can go on forever, at this point is clear that there are (at least) two different point of views between players on this matter. There is a way to fix this and make all happy: the DEVs could just leave the choice to the player. They could implement the new scanning system, and leave the option to do things the old way. Kind of "manual" probes control system and "automated" probes control system. Like with autopilot.
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Hungry Eyes
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
444
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 19:11:00 -
[45] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote: Scanning is fun because is HARD..
uh, nope. stopped reading here. scanning is fun because u get to look for your target and interact with it. id rather be spending more time interacting. |
Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 19:36:00 -
[46] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote: We can go on forever, at this point is clear that there are (at least) two different point of views between players on this matter. There is a way to fix this and make all happy: the DEVs could just leave the choice to the player. They could implement the new scanning system, and leave the option to do things the old way. Kind of "manual" probes control system and "automated" probes control system. Like with autopilot.
Of course, if DEVs go down this path, the automated probes pattern shouldn't be optimized for the best/fast possible resolution on the target. The player doing it in manual mode should always have an advantage on the player who is using the automated process. Like with autopilot: you can use it if you want, but it's not gonna warp you at zero on the gate.
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Haulie Berry
724
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 19:50:00 -
[47] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:
When posting in a 3 pages thread, you shouldn't jump to the last page and rush a reply. Other people before your time-saving response, have explained what "hard" means in this context. Proper formation of probes in space can (will) save you time in resolving the signature. The way you do it is something personal, is something you learn with time, patience and dedication, is something you're proud of, is something that can make the difference especially if you are hunting someone, is something hard that you don't learn the first day you lunch your probes.
Nothing you just described fits any commonly accepted definition of the word "hard", regardless of context, so I'm just going to assume that the answer to my question is, "Yes." |
Sishen Gzi
Hellion Support Services
38
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 20:09:00 -
[48] - Quote
I would suggest that anyone concerned about the new probing mechanics go on the test server and try them. If you go on during Icelandic business hours and participate in the discussion on the singularity channel there are actually developers on there who sometimes respond. Removing tedium does not make it easy, I like being able to deploy all my probes at once, I miss the 8th probe as well as the ability to move them independently, and I would like customizable formations. |
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 20:09:00 -
[49] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:YuuKnow wrote:Gil Roland wrote:Ciao, I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears: http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD. Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing. Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however. yk Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
Rocket Science isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to quickly warp to a safe, launch the exact amount of probes you need (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8), move them away from you, and cloak up signifies "skill." Allowing someone to launch all probes at once may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning (or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to switch between DSP and normal probes manually. This could have been resolved by removing the DSP and adding it's functionality to the onboard scanner, and just letting you keep your preferred probes in the launcher. Instead they removed any challenge by letting you launch 7 probes at once, optimized for best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
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Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 20:14:00 -
[50] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote: Proper formation of probes in space can (will) save you time in resolving the signature. The way you do it is something personal, is something you learn with time, patience and dedication, is something you're proud of, is something that can make the difference especially if you are hunting someone, is something hard that you don't learn the first day you lunch your probes.
We can go on forever, at this point is clear that there are (at least) two different point of views between players on this matter. There is a way to fix this and make all happy: the DEVs could just leave the choice to the player. They could implement the new scanning system, and leave the option to do things the old way. Kind of "manual" probes control system and "automated" probes control system. Like with autopilot.
So it took you a fair amount of time, patience and dedication to . . . . decide that a cross was the best way to organize your probes for scanning down a signature? You developed this method on your own (or just watched one of a kajillion YouTube videos) and now it is "something you're proud of?"
And you're saying that your standard probe formation is "something hard that you don't learn on the first day you launch your probes?" I don't know how you derped so hard right out of the gate, but I had no real need to spend time, patience and dedication picking a formation for my probes.
You ever wonder if maybe you've just really been over thinking scanning?
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Grog Barrel
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
37
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 20:21:00 -
[51] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:YuuKnow wrote:Gil Roland wrote:Ciao, I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears: http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD. Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing. Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however. yk Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning. Rocket Science isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to quickly warp to a safe, launch the exact amount of probes you need (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8), move them away from you, and cloak up signifies "skill." Allowing someone to launch all probes at once may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning (or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to switch between DSP and normal probes manually. This could have been resolved by removing the DSP and adding it's functionality to the onboard scanner, and just letting you keep your preferred probes in the launcher. Instead they removed any challenge by letting you launch 7 probes at once, optimized for best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
Astrophysics isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to quickly warp to a safe, launch the exact amount of probes you need (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8), move them away from you, and cloak up signifies "skill." Allowing someone to launch all probes at once may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning (or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to switch between DSP and normal probes manually. This could have been resolved by removing the DSP and adding it's functionality to the onboard scanner, and just letting you keep your preferred probes in the launcher. Instead they removed any challenge by letting you launch 7 probes at once, optimized for best results. Aka dumbing down scanning. |
Plyn
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
59
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 20:30:00 -
[52] - Quote
Sounds like a good change to me. The only place where your "skill" with probing really makes a damn bit of difference is scanning down other players. Making it (ever so slightly)faster to scan other players is going to equate to more scan attempts resulting in PvP, which is only a good thing. Hossenfeffer. |
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
133
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 20:32:00 -
[53] - Quote
Grog Barrel wrote:Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:YuuKnow wrote:Gil Roland wrote:Ciao, I think every explorer (+ every DEV involved in Odyssey scanning mechanics) in EVE should read this blog post from Tiger Ears: http://www.tigerears.org/2013/05/12/one-handed-scanning-comes-with-odyssey/Scanning is fun because is HARD. Hunting someone in a WH/Space Anomaly/Whatever place require using combat probes is fun because is HARD. Searching for a WH, pinpointing an anomaly is fun because is HARD... Please don't fix what is not broken, don't make too easy what should stay HARD. Nah, there's nothing hard about scanning if you know how to do it right. Pretty straightforward. Its only hard for someone that's trying to do it without proper skillz or that doesn't know what they are doing. Having automated formation, just saves a lot of mindless repetition. They do need to make the formations customizable and save-able however. yk Brain surgery isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to set up probes in a efficient and timely fashion, signifies "skill". By allowing preset formations may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning(or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to launch X amount of probes individually. This could have been resolved by allowing the user to set a number of probes to be launched. Instead they removed any challenge of scanning by having 2 predefined formations, that is optimized for the best results. Aka dumbing down scanning. Rocket Science isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to quickly warp to a safe, launch the exact amount of probes you need (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8), move them away from you, and cloak up signifies "skill." Allowing someone to launch all probes at once may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning (or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to switch between DSP and normal probes manually. This could have been resolved by removing the DSP and adding it's functionality to the onboard scanner, and just letting you keep your preferred probes in the launcher. Instead they removed any challenge by letting you launch 7 probes at once, optimized for best results. Aka dumbing down scanning. Astrophysics isn't hard, if you know what you are doing. The fact that you need to learn how to do something properly entails difficulty. Learning how to quickly warp to a safe, launch the exact amount of probes you need (4, 5, 6, 7, or 8), move them away from you, and cloak up signifies "skill." Allowing someone to launch all probes at once may remove some tedium from scanning but it also removes the learning (or skill) factor of setting everything up. The only repetitive action the old scanning system had that was bad was having to switch between DSP and normal probes manually. This could have been resolved by removing the DSP and adding it's functionality to the onboard scanner, and just letting you keep your preferred probes in the launcher. Instead they removed any challenge by letting you launch 7 probes at once, optimized for best results. Aka dumbing down scanning.
You did it wrong.
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Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 21:11:00 -
[54] - Quote
Octoven wrote:Not another anti-odyssey thread >.> I am glad they are fixing and addressing some of the concerns with the new probing system, but it does have the potential to be more efficient then the current one. It never really made sense to hold shift, move probe ranges, hold alt, adjust probes toward the center. Now you can do both those functions and dont even need to press shift/alt which to me does NOT take from the difficulty of it, just makes it a more streamlined and efficient design.
I will admit though, I think the base signals can be dialed down some. With DSPs being removed, it really isn't necessary to adjust to little deviation as possible before skills come into play.
As for the hacking mini-game. I love it, going to radar and mag sites is really a two step process. Unless you have a T3, you are condemned to scan down a site with a buzzard or something, bookmark the structure, go back and dock, grab your combat ship (that you have to drag with you), fly out and shoot ****, re-dock and grab your buzzard again, fly back out, and sit with a module turned on doing nothing but waiting for a chance of success for you to open the can, loot, and fly away. That doesn't really seem like exploring, its more like a simplistic mission.
However, the mini-game gives you an interactive interface that provides more of an exploratory feel to it. Each node you click you don't know if its a defense system or a utility slot. Either way, I prefer something that I can do to just sitting there and running a module over and over until a can unlocks.
The even nicer part about the probing interface is hiding all the probes that arent at the center. If I am using a pinpoint formation and only need to adjust one probe to move them all...why do I need to even see the others? However, you can over-ride this and show them by pressing shift.
Umm, you do things different to some people, you don-¦t have to touch the KB at all at present to explore, you can do it all using just the mouse pointer, many people work that way, just like some like to move probes individually to where they desire as they know that out of two points for a sig one will be correct and confirmable at a smaller radius speeding things up.
The hacking game is a tablet affair or something for WiS, its not in space EvE, this and the overlay brackets and radial menus confirm that CCP is now trying not to be firmly in a unique niche but trying to keep up with the big boys in the pit with shiny, shiny lowest common demoniator drivel with no depth, they forgetting that the EvE niche has a long term place in the market that no one else fills in the same way, it is a shame what greed and arrogance can do.
Hiding all the probes may be good, but it may as well have been one super probe, as that what you are movingwhen all is said and done, where is the skill and game play?, its gone, poof, it is no more, its a dead parrot.
yeah niche, skill, gameplay, all things that are missing with Ody expansion, shame they cannot see it, but were hooked we-¦ll adapt, after shooting staues, because the overlay spam was not thought out as sigs are all on the same plane 90%+ of the time and the overlaps will be its killer.
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Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
46
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 21:20:00 -
[55] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:Gil Roland wrote: We can go on forever, at this point is clear that there are (at least) two different point of views between players on this matter. There is a way to fix this and make all happy: the DEVs could just leave the choice to the player. They could implement the new scanning system, and leave the option to do things the old way. Kind of "manual" probes control system and "automated" probes control system. Like with autopilot.
Of course, if DEVs go down this path, the automated probes pattern shouldn't be optimized for the best/fast possible resolution on the target. The player doing it in manual mode should always have an advantage on the player who is using the automated process. Like with autopilot: you can use it if you want, but it's not gonna warp you at zero on the gate.
i-¦d agree CCP will keep the Super Probe (because that what it is when all is said and done) a.k.a. "Formations" because its lowest common denominator and usable with an IQ of 30, yeah you could train a chimp to do it. However it is basically an automated system without real human intervention with all the skill and built up knowledge that goes in to it, so like auto pilot there should be a penalty |
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
459
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:31:00 -
[56] - Quote
Meh. As someone who has lived in a wormhole for a few months and regularly used combat probes in lowsec, I find this change to be a good thing. Not just because Eve causes enough RSI as it is. Probes have a lifetime of an hour and in this time you can switch ships at will. The change will only remove several minutes for a noob, several seconds for a pro, of their effective probing time. Oh, and it might minimize the amounts of times he screws up by accidentally ruining the formation. Not that big a deal gameplay wise, very big deal for my wrist and fingers. |
Smokay
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
3
|
Posted - 2013.05.15 22:36:00 -
[57] - Quote
Brujo Loco wrote:The only things that annoys me is the "loot" blowing up all over the place thing and the stupid clickfest, if I wanted to play something like that I can do it for free in the 20.000+ Java games targeted for mothers at home, with much shinier colors and better sounds. So NO ty ...
Newsflash.
This entire game is a clickfest. |
Gil Roland
Roma Aeterna
20
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 01:24:00 -
[58] - Quote
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
You ever wonder if maybe you've just really been over thinking scanning?
LOL. This is a RPG, I (as a player) could be right thinking I'm speeding up the process of resolving a target with my superskill power, or I could be wrong, that really doesn't change the fact that I feel that way, and the all system should be designed to make the player feel that way. Now I have a DEV that tell me: "Hey! What the hell are you doing? You can do the same thing just pushing a button on your screen, all your effort is for nothing!"... Well done dear DEV, why don't you give me a script that save me the tedium (am I learning your logic?) of pushing the button, so I can just seat back and watch how the game play itself? |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
1478
|
Posted - 2013.05.16 01:52:00 -
[59] - Quote
New scanning system in a nutshell. The day CCP codes together a bot program that slaps 30 day forum bans on anyone who says "can I have your stuff?" the overall average IQ of the EvE forums will quintuple overnight. |
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
135
|
Posted - 2013.05.17 13:53:00 -
[60] - Quote
Gil Roland wrote:Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog wrote:
You ever wonder if maybe you've just really been over thinking scanning?
LOL. This is a RPG, I (as a player) could be right thinking I'm speeding up the process of resolving a target with my superskill power, or I could be wrong, that really doesn't change the fact that I feel that way, and the all system should be designed to make the player feel that way. Now I have a DEV that tell me: "Hey! What the hell are you doing? You can do the same thing just pushing a button on your screen, all your effort is for nothing!"... Well done dear DEV, why don't you give me a script that save me the tedium (am I learning your logic?) of pushing the button, so I can just seat back and watch how the game play itself?
And that's the one argument I can't really rebut; how it subjectively makes you feel.
But bigger picture, I think far more players (myself included) are pretty pleased with not having to do needlessly repetitive tasks like carefully boxing up our probes every time we launch them (I always do 8 probes in a cube, sounds like I'm about to lose that option), because that is a part of scanning that is not "fun" to me - just busywork.
But again, nobody can honestly say that you're "wrong" for wanting to feel better about your scanning (or rping as a scanner - i mean, we're all rpers in some respect, flying our internet spaceships and wishing it were real) by manually doing more tasks. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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