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Gaius Kador
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Posted - 2005.10.17 01:47:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Lianhaun
Originally by: Bokudo
"For you're sake never enter the Amarr empire, you would not be well recieved."
I'm never well received in any empire, there is something unnerving about a armed lady without morales smiling brightly at everyone.
Despite your inferior origins, Lady Lianhaun, your smile would be welcome in my company anytime.
That goes for the dry sarcasm of the Discoropration as well..
Strange does not describe it.
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Sic Transit Gloria |
Masu'di
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Posted - 2005.10.17 12:10:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kaeleron
Consider it a search for enlightenment. I would like to know proof of God's Existance from an Amarr, or any other standpoint. I do hope that all the replies are constructive and as objective as can be. Anyone familiar with any previous works of mine should understand that I am not looking to turn this into a battle of egoes.
Thank you.
Kaeleron
proof denies faith and without faith God would be nothing
POS Drug Refinery |
Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.17 13:00:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Maul Ghoul on 17/10/2005 13:12:23
Lord Kealeron,
Because you are out side the Empire and cannot be properly trained, I will just offer you some knowledge for you to follow up on.
Faith-
Is simply defined as ôbelieving in something that you have not personally seenö.
Now let me make this clear; Faith in God is NOT a ôblind faithö. God will build up your faith. He will give you the reasons to believe, as we say in seminary ôGod will reveal Himself to those who seek himö
Truth-
The Biblical and Scientific way to establish truth is ôThe Witnessö
In science a hypotheses (guess) is made and a result is predicted, a test is applied to see if it results in the predicted out come (it is witnessed). The test will be done again and again (to establish many witnesses) and the guess will move from theory, to one-day law.
If someone comes up to you and tells you of an ôeventö, you may or may not believe them. But if many witnesses come to you (especially if some are know by you to already be credible) then the ôeventö becomes established as truth.
Evidence for Faith and God-
God Himself will testify that He and His scriptures are true. We call it ômiraclesö
The stopping of time, the parting of seas, sending plagues, healing the sick, telling us of things to come, raising the dead and the many other miracles from God are not done to ôshow offö. They are done to testify that His words are true.
Again I say to you that we do not believe in a ôblind faithö. God tells us in His word through the prophets to ôCome (to Him), let us reason with one another.ö
He is a living and personal God and he will do miracles in your personal life to give you the faith and to testify that His word is true.
The prophets where not men and woman of great power who did amazing things. Quite the contrary, they where weak and frail. These prophet where preaching to the people something God told them to say. The miracles God preformed through them and around them was to testify that the prophetÆs words were true.
All creation pointes to its creator, science bares witness to God. Do not be fool by heathen high priests with their PhDÆs who invent theories that point away from God. In time all lies are show for what they are.
Remember Lord Kealeron; if you seek Him you will find Him.
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Ollie Rundle
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Posted - 2005.10.20 06:30:00 -
[34]
Ok. My CAS days involving research and experimental proofs were a while back - apologies if I make a conceptual error in the following.
Someone once told me you can't prove that something exists, you can only prove that a null hypothesis does or doesn't hold true.
ie, null hypothesis: god does not exist
What you do then is try and see whether you can gather enough proof to support that statement to a satisfactory outcome. And if your satisfaction interval (I think they called it a 'p' value) isn't significant than you've err ... gone about proving the opposite.
So would that work do you think? :)
PS: I tend to agree with those who have stated that faith and proof should never be something you try to mix
-= Diplomatic Liason =-
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raVn666
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Posted - 2005.10.20 08:35:00 -
[35]
There is no proof of God , because he dont exsist.
And I feel so sorry for the Amarr people . Without the faith of theyr god they would have been so disillutioned and weak.
The Diplomatic Biatch
raVn666
yeah yeah |
Fontez Gallinigher
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Posted - 2005.10.20 08:50:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Fontez Gallinigher on 20/10/2005 08:56:21
I thought id let you know that, I am God and would like all your people to conquer everything you see and kill anyone who dosent agree with you and enslave those whome are diffrent. I forbid you from free thought, I forbid you to have a say or choice in worshipping me. I am the God of the Amarr and will be hurt if all arent forced to worship me.
Come on folks the Amarr religion is crap and all Amarrians who beleive this crap are just as naive and brainwashed as the people who think MR, Blaque will make a better president.
You cant convince an Amarr anything so why bother. let them live in there repressive society and worship there god who supposedly speaks through a have dead rotting corpse of an Emperor.
All I can say is when your wives sneak out at night to share some alone time with the Minmitar slaveboy, it shows how moral these heathens are. They speak of morals yet nothing about there culture is moral. The Amarr are chosen by noone, noone wants them.
P.S. If any slave heres this grab a gun and blast an Amarrian priest and show them what righteousness is. Go kill them all and let them burn in hell for there sins against humanity. They will all get what they deserve one day.
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Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.20 15:11:00 -
[37]
Mr. Rundle,
Actually, the ancient philosopher Rene Descarts tackled your argument. At one time he was required reading in the Universities. Obviously education standards were much higher back when I attended.
If you search, even your brutish Gallente federation should have his works. I would suggest to you that he would be a far better reference then your ôSomeoneö (your brother maybe? Or maybe one of your ôdrinking buddiesö)
You will find that you donÆt like his answers and you will be unable to over come his positions. So like most heathens, you simply will not read it.
Maul
The fact is this û God exists and all the ôproofö you seek is easily found.
I ask you all---
Can you prove the God does NOT exist?
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Elsebeth Rhiannon
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Posted - 2005.10.21 10:39:00 -
[38]
More interesting to me than whether God exist is the question that if the Amarr God exists, does he deserve our devotion and worship?
I will not bow down before someone who wants to take me a slave, threatens me with torture, and seeks to oppress me based on his superior power alone. It does not matter if he is a man, or a god, that tries this.
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Haitchi Allamut
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Posted - 2005.10.23 22:09:00 -
[39]
You can stop this now, Im right here!
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Kesslar Znel
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Posted - 2005.10.24 02:58:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Jes Salvatore
surely St. Thomas Aquinas was a wise man for thinking of such a clever proof of God, but this is where his logic fails, movement is subjected to being percieved by ones senses, and our senses often feeds us incorrect information. i can surely dream a dream within a dream, and my sense would not even be aware. So question is how to prove anything is truely real while relying on the senses. the answer is you cannot....
Even if reality were to be a dream, something would have had to set that dream in motion. The mere existance of time (or the *illusion* of time) is sufficient to prove the existance of a prime-mover.
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Azael Lightshade
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Posted - 2005.10.24 06:54:00 -
[41]
Azael Lightshade smirks at the voices
Only the suffering seek faith in a word they could never understand.
XXX |
ScoRpS
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Posted - 2005.10.24 12:19:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Azael Lightshade
Azael Lightshade smirks at the voices
Only the suffering seek faith in a word they could never understand.
Beautifully sums it all up, a great quote indeed. 
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Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.24 20:55:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Maul Ghoul on 24/10/2005 20:57:31
Originally by: Azael Lightshade
Only the suffering seek faith
Yes, very good point.
Originally by: Azael Lightshade
in a wor(l)d they could never understand.
No I donÆt agree. Those that suffer usually see the world for what is really is.
I find that the spoiled child is the one incapable of understanding the world around them.
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Achak Hinto
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Posted - 2005.10.25 05:01:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Maul Ghoul
No I donÆt agree. Those that suffer usually see the world for what is really is.
I find that the spoiled child is the one incapable of understanding the world around them.
... and I think few will disagree that we, the Matari, have suffered. Thank you for clarifying that we know the Truth.
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Beringe
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Posted - 2005.10.25 05:14:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Beringe on 25/10/2005 05:15:34
Any real scientist will tell you that you cannot prove anything (edit: without assumptions. We're not discussing mathematics here). All you can do is provide evidence to support something.
And if you can't conduct an experiment to test something, there is no way of procuring evidence.
Thus, whether or not god exists is unprovable.
Stop confusing theology with science.
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Sometimes, I wake up but keep on dreaming. |
Branco
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Posted - 2005.10.25 08:53:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Beringe
Stop confusing theology with science.
Dangerous indeed... and to darker paths it may lead us all.
Recruiting. |
Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.10.25 09:33:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Branco
Originally by: Beringe
Stop confusing theology with science.
Dangerous indeed... and to darker paths it may lead us all.
Theology is the philosophical study of faith. In Philosophy one supports thier arguements with philosophical "proofs". Therefore the question is not to whether god does or does not exist scientifically, since by definition an omnipotent being would easily transcend any scientific confines put before it, but for beleives and not beleivers to put forth logically constructed philosophical arguments for or against the views of one another. The difference between one faithful to their ideals and the zealot is that the faithful will seek to enlighten through knowledge and defend through knowledge using violence to defend against such, whereas the zealot brings pain and death to serve their beleifs. It seems those who are against my endevours and see them as dangerous an blasphmous fear only that they may in fact understand their percieved enemy in ways they did not wish to or lack the competancy to place thier beleifs through a true conflict of wills. Regardless Fear has no place here.
--Because it cannot be seen does not mean it cannot exist. MJXII-- |
Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.25 14:50:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Maul Ghoul on 25/10/2005 14:50:59
Originally by: Achak Hinto
... and I think few will disagree that we, the Matari, have suffered. Thank you for clarifying that we know the Truth.
Mr. Hinto,
If you know the truth way do you cling to a lie?
Let us look at the core believes of two competing societies.
The Amarr û ôMan is capable of good, but his nature is sinfulö.
The Gallente û ôMan is basically goodö
What have you seen?
What does history show to be true?
Here is another example-
The Amarr û ôThe highest calling of man is to serve one anotherö
The Gallente û ôThe highest calling of man is to be freeö
I have seen several of your transmissions, and I believe that you and those around you have suffered. You have a reason to hate us, but donÆt let your hate of the Amarr blind you to what you know to be true.
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Jalenar Frost
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Posted - 2005.10.26 04:47:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Jalenar Frost on 26/10/2005 04:48:38
Edited by: Jalenar Frost on 26/10/2005 04:48:19
Delusions... to be sure.
We are here and then we aren't. There is no life after death, nor a place we came from before here. When you die (truely), you are lost to the world and go no where else. Religion and it's accompanying "god(s)" were created to keep people in line by those who would rule them or their way of life.
You say that because you have faith you know that god exists. But I would pose this question... would you have faith in this "divine" being if no one had first "instructed" you in his existence, and told you of the ways you should act and how one should worship? Do you honestly think you would have come to believe that an omnipotent being watches over you day and night for all your life, along with all others... all on your own? I think not.
pfft....
Merely a tool of the ancients to enable to few to control the many. A long outdated tool that should have gone out of style with the age it was founded.
Faith is for the weak.
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Nothing is predictable except the stupidity of the masses.
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Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.26 14:06:00 -
[50]
Lady Frost,
You have made great claims, but by what proof do you base your belief system on? What evidence do you possess that leads to your outlandish conclusions?
The community of faith has offered you solid philosophical arguments to substantiate our claims (or at least to point you in the right direction). We have also offered common ground statements on the finding and establishing truth. And in return we receive a diatribe of hate.
By what point do you refute our claims? If you would offer an example, I promise that someone would be able to point out the ôflawö in your thinking.
Your only ôproofö that you seem to offer is that men have used religion to hurt other men.
I must inform you that man is a sinful, fallen, and wicked creature. If you study human history you will find that men have used every ôismö at his disposal to control and destroy. Communism, Darwinism, fascism, fundamentalism, liberalism, and many more have been used over and over again.
If you think about it you will see that these historical facts only reinforces our belief; ôman is sinful and needs to be savedö.
If your going to base your whole life and the ôafterlifeö on your belief that there is no ôafter lifeö. Then I suggest that you put vitocÆs inhaler down and find some evidence to support your claim.
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Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.26 14:41:00 -
[51]
I just wanted to address an inferred argument against God that IÆve seen repeated several times.
ôAmarr and slavery Vs Godö
We Amarr say we are superior, but not like the Darwinist who attempted to exterminate entire races because of their faith in evolution. We are superior because we know the truth. Knowledge of God and devotion to Him sets us apart; genetically we are very much the same as you. (Granted, a true Amarr is blessed because God gave the revelation of Himself to the Amarr first.) But God wants to save all people and make them His children. Meaning that you can be superior also.
ôYou can be like usö is the promise we make to all people. A slave race will one day be full citizens of the Empire with the entire blessing that it brings. We do not damn an entire race to forever be slaves as you have seen in other cultures. Do not judge us according to some heathen history. Judge us on our own.
Most importantly ---- Do not dismiss a belief in God because your society has demonized the Amarr Empire
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Jalenar Frost
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Posted - 2005.10.27 04:40:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Maul Ghoul
Edited by: Maul Ghoul on 26/10/2005 14:45:35
Lady Frost,
You have made great claims, but by what proof do you base your belief system on? What evidence do you possess that leads to your outlandish conclusions?
No... no hate intended. Merely a statement of my own beliefs... that your's are false. Your premise is true though. Man is capable of good, but is usually not when in practice.
Quote:
The community of faith has offered you solid philosophical arguments to substantiate our claims (or at least to point you in the right direction). We have also offered common ground statements on the finding and establishing truth. And in return we receive a diatribe of hate.
The belief of many isn't a substantiated argument. People on the old homeworld thought it was flat until they were eventually proven wrong.
Quote:
By what point do you refute our claims? If you would offer an example, I promise that someone would be able to point out the ôflawö in your thinking.
Your only ôproofö that you seem to offer is that men have used religion to hurt other men.
Man uses religion to Hurt or control other men. He has done so for as long as History can remember. He continues today. I give you the Amarr. Even barring the present, and only looking at ancient times, it is quite easy to accept the possibility and likelyhood that it was created as a tool as I have described. I believe the term that summed up what I'm saying is... "Divine right to Rule". Any times where it was not used to batter, and keep the common man in place can easily be explained by "man has the ability to do good" even though he usually does not do so.
Quote:
I must inform you that man is a sinful, fallen, and wicked creature. If you study human history you will find that men have used every ôismö at his disposal to control and destroy. Communism, Darwinism, fascism, fundamentalism, liberalism, and many more have been used over and over again.
I would like to remind you that Man also created all those "ism's", just as he did Religion. A tool like so many others you've listed.
Quote:
If you think about it you will see that these historical facts only reinforces our belief; ôman is sinful and needs to be savedö.
Assuming all that is true, and man does indeed need to be saved, why and how does that necessitate the exsistense of your... or any... god.
Quote:
If your going to base your whole life and the ôafterlifeö on your belief that there is no ôafter lifeö. Then I suggest that you put your vitocÆs inhaler down and find some evidence to support your claim.
Just as I believe Faith is for the weak, I believe Boosters are also, for the week. Keep your ad hominems to yourself.
I am not trying to prove anything. Simply sharing my ideas on the matter. However, I repeat, just because a majority chooses to have this belief, doesn't mean it's true. Many things that the common and uncommon man alike have believed through the ages and knew to be true as sure as he knew he existed, turned out to be false.
You ask me for proof but I have yet to see any proof contrary to my own beliefs. Fact is, neither of us have proof. You only have reasons to believe and have faith. No "proof". And it will remain this way for both you and me, as there can be no proof when speaking of something intangible and/or imaginary.
I would really like to believe there is some omnipotent omnisent being watching over the galaxy as it changes and manipulates itself, but I just can't let myself be so naive.
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Nothing is predictable except the stupidity of the masses.
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Azael Lightshade
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Posted - 2005.10.27 05:07:00 -
[53]
Ah superior are we? I donÆt recall giving you permission to speak on behalf of me. It is not wise to pretend to know what GOD wants. Sure you have plagued yourself in many writings and thought about the faith but your vision is flawed if you think you can speak for GOD. ItÆs a sin to spew such words without the holy light commanding. It doesnÆt negate the fact that your statement is true. ItÆs the fact that you yourself do not know if it is true today. Maybe it has changed or maybe it has stayed the same. Either way you shouldnÆt speak as if you know truly what GOD wants now. You surly would be stoned for that in my grasps.
Azael Lightshade chuckles loudly
All those who oppose the light will suffer in the long run. Your weakness as a soul will pay when your life comes to an end. I think itÆs rather funny people donÆt give it a chance. ItÆs like they rather devote their life to not trying because of one flawed inspiration. If you died tomorrow and everything the faithful Amarr believed in was true what then? Will you still deny the faith? The point is not to confuse your selves with facts and what is true and what isnÆt. No one truly knows and that is why it is faith but there is no reason to deny it. I would rather give something a chance before I die rather than make a mistake of not believing. ThatÆs if I was in your place. It could mean sufferable consequences in the long run. Which you would have made all for not thinking outside the box but what do you expect from such simple minds as mortals. Ignorance is not a gift you should hold high on your shoulders. Take a chance on something. Roll the diceà
XXX |
Azael Lightshade
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Posted - 2005.10.27 05:11:00 -
[54]
Quote:
Just as I believe Faith is for the weak
You know whatÆs weak? Going into battle un-prepared. ThatÆs what you do when you under estimate your opponent. You open up a weakness for them to exploit and defeat you. When you die you will see this. You chose not to give it a chance therefore you chose to under estimate the faith in opening up an exploit to your defeat. ItÆs your choice and no one is forcing you. You only hurt yourself if youÆre wrong. If someone has faith and they find out theyÆre wrong. Then they have a better chance on the other side than you would have. All because you chose to deny something you couldnÆt prove.
XXX |
Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.27 13:14:00 -
[55]
A young Ammarrian boy and his father walked together in a field on their plantation one warm summers day.
The boy looks up at his beloved father and asks in an unsure voice ôDad, how do you know that there is a God?ö
The father smiles warmly at his son and gently asks, ôHow do you know that there is wind?ö
The Boy stops and thinks for a moment, then stares back at his father with a confused look.
The Father again smiles at his son and answers his own question, ô You can not see, weigh, or measure the wind its self, but when you look to the trees you can see the effect of the wind upon them. You measure the effect of the wind on the world around you and it is the same with God.ö
Dear Lady Frost,
Faith is very personal. I can offer you philosophical arguments, and personal testimonies. I can point you to awesome writings by men and women of great intellect who sought to prove or disprove our Lord God. But in the end, I cannot build up your faith.
I challenged you because I feared for you. People make conclusions based upon little or no person study. So I hope that the question of all of eternity would be worth a little of your valuable time to investigate.
I will confidently tell you that of all the belief systems that man bases his life and sciencesÆ on, that ours is the only one to remain consistent and logical.
BUT WHO AM I ---- I am no one to you. You have no reason to believe my word or personal studies.
That is why you must look for yourself. The promise if God is this; ôIf you seek me, you will find me.ö
One good place to start is the scriptures, read their claims for yourself. I can see in your statements to me that you have some incorrect information.
For example-
ôThe world is flatö was not biblical teaching. In fact God revealed to one of His prophets the world was a sphere when His people were still a nomad culture living in tents.
The flat world belief came from the same culture that taught that our planet was the center of the solar system and that dead matter spontaneously generated into living matter (i.e. spoiled meat magically ôspontaneouslyö generates maggots).
All those theories were also adopted into our church for a short time. But were later show to be unbiblical. (A lesson to early church leaders that the Holy Scriptures are always to be consulted first, even in regards to scientific theories.)
I personally find it very funny that the Gellente and other Darwinist/evolutionist cultures still cling to spontaneous generation.
Anyway, my point to you is this; please be certain that the rock you stand upon will not crumble under your feet when you need it the most.
Respectfully,
Maul
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Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.27 13:54:00 -
[56]
No Azael, I speak in defense of the faithful. I speak TO someone like you.
If you want to know what God wants just read His word. You will find that He clearly states His desire for his people.
If you take the time to study the Holy Scriptures (which all the faithful are required to do) you will find that my word is in line with His teachings.
My mind is held captive by the very word of God, if you seek to claim that I am a heretic then use scripture to reveal my error.
But to do so Lord Lightshade, would mean you need to actually know scripture.
God gave us His word so that we could intimately know Him. I worship and serve what I know; what do you serve?
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.10.27 17:05:00 -
[57]
I thank you all for your sharing of views. It has been a most enlightening discussion and has revealed much on faith and beleifs. Though not religious, I am a rather spiritual and inflective individual. I am pleased that so many decided to share what insight on the subject they had. |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2005.10.27 17:27:00 -
[58]
I believe in the almighty ISKs! 
----------------
RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Elthia
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Posted - 2005.10.28 15:30:00 -
[59]
Religion is something that human beings have had since our beginnings. It's something inherent in the human mind - the ability to look up - at the sky, at the stars, at the universe - and say "Who made that? Where did it come from?"
Religion has the same roots that Science does, and shares many of the same attributes. The desire to explain the universe, to really understand why things are the way they are, is something everyone has to some extent.
Many of the scientific breakthroughs are aligning with much of our ancient religious thought. It does make one wonder if both, perhaps, might share in the ultimate "Truth"...
________________________________________________
Everyone has the right to be ignorant, if they should so choose.
But they should at least be given the choice. |
Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.10.28 17:05:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Kaeleron on 28/10/2005 17:07:36
Elthia,
It seems you are saying that faith and religion is a human construct. It also seems you are saying that religion and science are paths to the same goal. It seems we have some common beleifs. We most likely may not share some also.
Science, Faith, and Philosophy are all paths to the same divine destination. Why then can humanity perceive this almost supernatural force that permeates all? A mystery that counfounds science, is simplified by faith, and is grappled with philosophy. The divinity we seek must be in ourselves already. God being the personification and manifestation of this inner divinity. One may say about the evil in the universe and people making others suffer. Has not God punished? One may say of voyerism, ****ography and moral laxity. Were we not born naturally enjoying our physical selves? One may say a single person has not the ability to do what God can. With our collective efforts can we not perform miracles of humanity or plagues of destruction?
A blind bishop, and blind philosopher, and a blind scientist were feeling for the first time a turret. The scientist felt the cold hard materials of it's construction and deduced that turrets must be cold an inert. The blind philosopher felt the printing of words across the side and realized the it was intricate and complex. The blind bishop felt the heat of the barrel as it fired and lost his hand. He decided it must be a wrathful creation of fire and heat. Three persons with their own iews on the same object beginning to argue over the limited understanding they have of such an object. To convinced they know the entirety to listen to their neighbor. God is much in this way. Many views and percpetions though none are whole. By finding the harmony of the parts intsead of focusing on the discrepancies one may find that the answer is almost too apparent to ignore. Humanity is divine. All have the capacity for suffering and healing. It is the balance that these create that is what I percieve as God. Through this all is possible. Through faith in one's own divinity questions can be answered.
It was only fair I share some of my spiritual veiwpoints in respect to those who shared their's with me. I am sure many do not agree and that is fine by me. Your path being different does not make it wrong. Nor does it make mine any less right. This opinon I feel for all humankind.
--He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression.-- |
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