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Elthia
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Posted - 2005.10.28 17:32:00 -
[61]
Hm... No, I don't believe it's a human construct, so much as a human trait. Religion, science, exploration, these are all attempts to learn things, satisfy curiosity. Human beings are curious by nature. We're driven to seek answers.
Religion and Science are both natural extensions of that, as different ways to seek the same goal.
________________________________________________
Everyone has the right to be ignorant, if they should so choose.
But they should at least be given the choice. |
Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.28 17:51:00 -
[62]
Mr. Kaeleron and Lady Elthia,
Something for you to consider ----.
Religion and God-
God ordains religion but men create it. What God requires is for us to know and obey Him on a daily and personal level. He also knows that men need intuitions and accountability in order to form societies.
Religion can help facilitate a relationship with God and meet the need of a community.
BUT
Religion can also replace God and cause the devastation of that same society.
Remember that a religion is made up of sinful men trying to live up to a perfect standard (The Law of God). Thus when they fail; they acknowledge the sin and repent. So the church remains healthy and ôin GodsÆ wordö.
Now we all know that man in his sinfulness does not like to admit to his mistakes. So when a church or religion (its leaders) refuses to repent and devastates itself and those around it, we must remember that the church did not live up to God word.
Instead of blaming the church leaders.
ôThey should have obeyed God.ö
People blame God.
ôSee what that church did; there is no God.ö
I love The Amarr Empire. To me there is not a more beautiful sight in this universe then the light of a star reflecting off our golden fleets. I count myself truly blessed to be apart of Amarr history and culture. My emotions run deep and I am often moved to tears when I hear our heroic songs or our anthem being played. I would gladly lay down my life and all the wealth and honor of my house to defend the Empire.
With all that being said. It is God and His word that is my greatest treasure
Maul
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Kit Duchane
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Posted - 2005.10.28 18:05:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Kit Duchane on 28/10/2005 18:05:50
Kael, do you always think such deep thoughts?
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Elthia
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Posted - 2005.10.28 18:17:00 -
[64]
Indeed, Mr. Ghoul, on that we can agree. A religion should drive people to become greater than they are, not to justify themselves as they stand. Just as science should drive people to greater heights.
I do not share your religion, but I can appreciate its place in society, and in the minds and hearts of the people who live it.
________________________________________________
Everyone has the right to be ignorant, if they should so choose.
But they should at least be given the choice. |
Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.28 18:18:00 -
[65]
Good Kaeleron, I would like to ask you a question about your theists on the 3 blind men.
Why do you care about the thoughts of the blind men when the Turret is the one with all the answers?
Your statements seem to imply a cold and aloof deity.
What if the Divine actively cares for you and wants to interact with you?
Please donÆt take me the wrong way; IÆm instead in why you believe what you do?
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Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.28 18:27:00 -
[66]
Lady Elthia, I very glad that we can find some common ground between us. Science and religion can be a blessing or a curse, depending on what men do with it.
I hope that we can also agree that both science and religion should be based on the truth.
Humbly,
Maul
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.10.28 19:56:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Kaeleron on 28/10/2005 19:57:40
No I fully agree divinity is not A human contruct. It is in my beleif the core of humanity itself. The personification of God is in fact a human construct. An attempt for the human mind to grasp what it knows to be true, but does not know why it is true. In response to further points it is not "He" who knows that men need institutions. It is in fact "We" who know this. Who know we must work together, Combine our inner strengths if you will, to make things better. Regardless of the outcome, this is the basic drive of soceities.
As for the turret it does not represent a cold an aloof deity it is a metaphor for concepts beyond the faculty of those perceiving the facts at hand. The turret does indeed have all the answers and does everything within its ability to represent itself in true form, but the blind men lack the ability to perceive the whole truth. A deity can be active and trying to communicate but there are things that are still far beyond the understanding of whom he communicates with. If that rift between the two entities did not exist then they would be of the same manner and therefore God would have a very different meaning. Instead some recieve different part of the same message. Only when the parts are combined can a true meaning be gained. With this paradox comes the conclusion. For humanity to understand the message they must already have within themselves the ability to learn or understand the message. Therefore they must have the divinity born within themselves to begin with. The blind men had the ability to learn and understand but not the will or enlightnment to listen to what was being presented to them. They created constructs to best explain what they perceived with their limited information on the true nature of the subject. The blind men underestimated one another's talents and veiws. Therefore each one was correct according to what they knew but far from the reality of truth. The turret inspired the one blind man, but caused great faer and pain in the other. Such is the divine duality of humanity. Humanity bring suffering to protect what it deems "better". Unfortunately with the blindness to not still their own passions and seek the truth. Humanity bring great blessing to that which is seen as "better". Without putting the pieces together "better" is an illusion that is only destined to cause tribulations and turmoil.
And yes I always think this deeply Kit.
--He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression.-- |
Elthia
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Posted - 2005.10.28 21:28:00 -
[68]
 Originally by: Maul Ghoul
I hope that we can also agree that both science and religion should be based on the truth.
Absolutely. If one is seeking the truth, one shouldn't simply walk away when one gets a tiny piece of it. And any assumptions that are made, whether they seem accurate or not, could be steps away from that. While we need those assumptions to live (going through life without them would be impossible), it is necessary to acknowledge them for what they are.
And yes, I definitely agree that both science and religion can be blessing or curse, depending on what's done with them.
________________________________________________
Everyone has the right to be ignorant, if they should so choose.
But they should at least be given the choice. |
Maul Ghoul
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Posted - 2005.10.28 21:32:00 -
[69]
Kaeleron,
Good sir, again you offer a very well though out thesis. I do enjoy your writings, so please do not misinterpret my rebuttal.
The Divine is with in him, or if I may to put is in more of a crude manner, ôMan is godö.
Is this not the logical conclusion of you statements? Is this not, in your view, what we are trying to achieve --- to be gods?
You are extremely intelligent and you seem to have a noble spirit, but I have heard your words before. These are the words that the fallen used on us. ôYou can be like godö. It was the offer that caused us to doubt our Lords word and brought sickness and death to the race of man. It was the offer that lead us to lose paradise.
ôI can do it, I donÆt need Godö is the battle cry of every addict that remains out of recovery.
ôWe can create the perfect societyö is the sweet words of those that murder millions.
A beautiful lie that has been whispered in the dark since the beginning of time --ôWe/I can do it.ö
Is it not madness for a fish to say, ôI am a catö or a dog to say, ôI am a whaleö
Thus it is madness for a man to say, ôI am a Godö or öI can be like Godö
Leave being god to God.
In our view man is sinful so he cannot be trusted. That is why the ôWord of Godö is so important. We need something to measure everything we do by. Since our church leaders (although wise) are also sinful, we simply cannot just trust their personal word on the matter there needs, to be accountability. Thus a leaders ôwordsö has to be ôweighedö by the Word of God. Again I tell you this to point out that man cannot be trusted. Man can never be god.
I understand that unbelievers will claim that the Holy Scriptures were just written by men. But that my friend, is a debate for another time.
Maul
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.10.28 22:56:00 -
[70]
I, of course, am not saying for man to be God. I am saying for humanity to fufill their humanity. I am not saying man to be like God but to be like man. I am not saying abandon your beleifs in God. For your beleifs define how you understand the universe around you. You need to believe God is key as others hold other beleifs in higher value. The logical conclusion of my statements is to become more human than we currently are and begin to gain true insight into ourselves and abilities. You beleive man is sinful and misguided. It is true that they many do not know how to be more than they are, but sin is a limitation set from a limited understanding. Your holy scriptures were in fact penned by human hand most likely, but indeed the message was through divine manner of this I am certain. Those who penned your scriptures sensed the message and penned what they could understand. This however does not mean the whole picture is clear. It is but one piece of the truth interpreted by those who were able to understand what little they could. We cannot create a perfect society because perfection is an illusion. There is always infinite growth. I do not beleive in God in the way you see god. But I do beleive in the guidence and wisdom that force represents. I do beleive that humanity can feel that power omnipresent if they choose to listen. I do beleive that this force is not meant to make us "gods" as you say. But I do beleive that in order to feel this there must be something divine about humanity to begin with. Becoming sensitive to our inner strenthgs will only allow us to grow.
--He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression.-- |
Trevedian
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Posted - 2005.10.29 14:06:00 -
[71]
Do Amarrians believe Virgins can have babies too?
Ahhh the opiate of the simple-minded Amarrian masses...
Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.10.30 03:00:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Kaeleron on 30/10/2005 03:00:00
Originally by: Trevedian
Do Amarrians believe Virgins can have babies too?
Ahhh the opiate of the simple-minded Amarrian masses...
I am not sure who you are talking to or about?
--He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression.-- |
Kraven Dragonis
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Posted - 2005.10.30 11:27:00 -
[73]
As a wise Minmatar once said God is what you make it to be. Is god an entity that helps you throe your life or is it something that we use to explain why were hear and how we became to be. Is it god that helps you past the pirate blockade or is it luck, for me i say to find the answer that can never be answered is foolish if you live you life the way you deem to be the right course then you may meet god at the end if not then hell at lest you lived your life.
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Kraven Dragonis
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Posted - 2005.10.30 11:27:00 -
[74]
As a wise Minmatar once said God is what you make it to be. Is god an entity that helps you throe your life or is it something that we use to explain why were hear and how we became to be. Is it god that helps you past the pirate blockade or is it luck, for me i say to find the answer that can never be answered is foolish if you live you life the way you deem to be the right course then you may meet god at the end if not then hell at lest you lived your life.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.01 04:37:00 -
[75]
Quite Poetic. |
Lluthiunne Atalaron
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Posted - 2005.11.02 14:22:00 -
[76]
i have read half the posts in this topic heres my 5p worth.
God is our creation and cannot exist without us. He is a belief that brings hope and order to our lifes.
I have read replies to this topic such as - 'the world is not perfect' 'god is perfect' etc.
The only realm the word perfect can be used is within a scientific capacity. 'The sphere is perfectly spherical'
It has no use in any other capacity. You cannot state that god is perfect for many reasons.
1:
My own sig, is this very true saying.
The mind is its own place and in itself can create a heaven of hell and a hell of heaven.
perfection can only be quantified by a scientific measurement otherwise it is open to interpretation one mans god is another mans devil.
2:
Omnipresence; god is everwhere and everything.
then god is also evil, has 'imperfect attributes'
I could go on and bore you all to death by giving a run through of why god doesnt exist but its besides the point. If you want to believe in god then all that is required is faith. You cannot disprove a mans faith in an almighty diety through logic and reason.
Its a simple question of faith. Do you believe?
I do not, but millions do. Such is the power of faith
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2005.11.02 17:22:00 -
[77]
God? Bah... humbug!!! The only G-O-D for me is the almighty ISKs. I can show you what you can do with the almighty ISKs. With loads and loads of ISKs, I can literally never die and I have the total power to do almost anything at my will.   
Praise the ISKs!
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.02 23:15:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
God? Bah... humbug!!! The only G-O-D for me is the almighty ISKs. I can show you what you can do with the almighty ISKs. With loads and loads of ISKs, I can literally never die and I have the total power to do almost anything at my will.
Praise the ISKs!
That is one way of looking at things I suppose.
--These views are not representative or indicative of any official policy or statement of any organizations I am party to.-- |
Gaven Lok'ri
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Posted - 2005.11.02 23:36:00 -
[79]
This is a fine example of how Gallente/Caldari Liberalism constantly proves itself to be evil.
God is with us. |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2005.11.03 00:30:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Gaven Lok'ri
This is a fine example of how Gallente/Caldari Liberalism constantly proves itself to be evil.
Hear ye, hear ye. I can show you the mighty power of the ISK. Tell me where is the almighty "Lord" when I am being warp scrambled with 5 x 250mm blasters tech 2 pointing at my pod! Can the almighty help me? I guess, the answer is NO! But the almighty ISKs may save me, a few millions ISKs will definitely safe my life. Can anyone vouch who is mightier, the God or the ISK?   
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Trevedian
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Posted - 2005.11.03 02:44:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Trevedian on 03/11/2005 02:44:14
Gawd has no iskies Jenny, SHE couldn't even afford the reasonable ransom I offered HER... In addition to pwnin' HER, I was forced by Amarrian RPers to believe HER as well...
Gawd is a no0b!
To quote Schopenhauer;
How very paltry and limited the normal human intellect is, and how little lucidity there is in the human consciousness, may be judged from the fact that, despite the ephemeral brevity of human life, the uncertainty of our existence and the countless enigmas which press upon us from all sides, everyone does not continually and ceaselessly philosophize, but that only the rarest of exceptions do so. The rest live their lives away in this dream not very differently from the animals, from which they are in the end distinguished only by their ability to provide for a few years ahead. If they should ever feel any metaphysical need, it is taken care of from above and in advance by the various religions; and these, whatever they may be like, suffice.
Gawd is a Myth... PWNED!
Sex0r > you're bounty turns me on.. you seem like the kind of amarrian to dominate me
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2005.11.03 03:11:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 03/11/2005 03:13:15
Originally by: Trevedian
Edited by: Trevedian on 03/11/2005 02:44:14
Gawd has no iskies Jenny, SHE couldn't even afford the reasonable ransom I offered HER... In addition to pwnin' HER, I was forced by Amarrian RPers to believe HER as well...
Gawd is a no0b!
To quote Schopenhauer;
How very paltry and limited the normal human intellect is, and how little lucidity there is in the human consciousness, may be judged from the fact that, despite the ephemeral brevity of human life, the uncertainty of our existence and the countless enigmas which press upon us from all sides, everyone does not continually and ceaselessly philosophize, but that only the rarest of exceptions do so. The rest live their lives away in this dream not very differently from the animals, from which they are in the end distinguished only by their ability to provide for a few years ahead. If they should ever feel any metaphysical need, it is taken care of from above and in advance by the various religions; and these, whatever they may be like, suffice.
Gawd is a Myth... PWNED!
Oh yes, an Amarr by the name of Trevedian has vouched for me. See, GOD has no ISKies and and therefore GOD is no mightier than the ISK. All hail to the ISK.
You may force me to believe what you want me to believe but I will always believe the might of the Inter-Stellar Kredits! ISKs talk and bullsh!ts walk  
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Right Eyeighty
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Posted - 2005.11.03 04:27:00 -
[83]
Yet, sometimes I think 'Why there should be mosquitos? Whats the deal with flies?'
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Dr Lightwave
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Posted - 2005.11.03 05:01:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Dr Lightwave on 03/11/2005 05:03:28
Even though I'm not a religious man (like most of my kin do). Yet sometimes I ponder about things happening within the universe and our own history of the human race.
Why did our ancestor in ancient terra be the only sentient creature? Evolution it is, but why only human the only one capable of evolving to the higher level? An ancient scientifict record shows similiar creature that also have high intelligent yet unable to do feat what human do, and still dependent on their primal instict (Chimpanzee, dolphin).
If I remember it well from my history lesson about our ancient ancestor, people back then believing in supernatural things as a mean to explain things that they considered 'unnatural' or 'fearful' with limited logic.
Many ages and eras has past, and technology getting more and more improved. Thus with this, we gain more and more knowledge. The old myth broken, replaced by theory and fact. (un)natural things that caused by the work of pixies, spirits, devil, and Gods... now caused by particles, ozones, radiation, etc.
With the discoveries of DNA and splitting atomic particle, man started to discover the secret of God. Did you know that our ancestor first clone was a sheep? I was pretty amazed that they gave it the name of a famous singer at that era -Dolly Parton-. Pretty soon religious belief contradicts.
The more we discover ourself and our sorrounding, the more the faith in God is loosen. Yet above all those. We forgot what made us so complexes in the first place, and why nature is still unpredictable even with our best effort to predict with state-of-the-art tech.
No one did foresaw the collapse of Eve gate that seperated our root with the old universe right? Let alone though the possibility... Maybe the Jovian foresaw it and maybe not at all. In my opinion, God is the universe it self. The unpredictable malviolent nature and creator of stars.
Well looks like my opinion has been boring for some people even tho I still want to add another thing. So I guess I'll stop my theory here...
Ps: I almost forgot, the Jove is our 'God' for a while
-Dr Lightwave, STI Historian and Archeolog.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.03 22:26:00 -
[85]
. . . Nevermind. Not worth responding too.
--These views are not representative or indicative of any official policy or statement of any organizations I am party to.-- |
Jon Xylur
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Posted - 2005.11.05 12:50:00 -
[86]
If the existance of God would be proven, it would no longer be religion but thruth. I do not comment on wheter or not God exists, as proving or disproving it would be impossible. The universe exists and it doesn't matter what made it exists. I do doubt that the creator of the universe would even know that the human race actually exists, btut hat is just hwta I think and I cannot prove it to be true or false. Discussing religion leads to nothing.
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Kaeleron
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Posted - 2005.11.08 07:34:00 -
[87]
If one cannot discuss their beleifs than we have truly lost what it is to be human.
He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his enemy from oppression. |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2005.11.08 09:37:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 08/11/2005 09:38:19
Originally by: Kaeleron
If one cannot discuss their beleifs than we have truly lost what it is to be human.
What is it to be human? Is to be human means to able to kill or to be able to pro-create?
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Jagaroth
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Posted - 2005.11.08 10:51:00 -
[89]
Aww Jen...! What has become of you?! From listening to your ramblings you seem to have lost your path in life. Whatever happened to the sweet young thing I used to know...
------
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Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2005.11.08 14:29:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Jagaroth
Aww Jen...! What has become of you?! From listening to your ramblings you seem to have lost your path in life. Whatever happened to the sweet young thing I used to know...
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
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