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Armanoob
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Posted - 2005.10.19 12:54:00 -
[61]
Reading this topic reminds me of someone who's gone from camping the hostages/bomb site to camping behind a door with a shotgun in CS. Ahh the evolution of EVE follows something 
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Dianabolic
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Posted - 2005.10.19 13:06:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Kara Kaprica
Edited by: Kara Kaprica on 19/10/2005 00:57:06
Originally by: Dianabolic
Orree, let's just go along with your suggestion that BoB and [5] are really the only two comparable groups, in terms of size, wealth, tech, leadership (etc) in the current climate (I would personally add [g] to that group, in the euro tz) and we one day do decide to say "to hell with it, we've fought everyone else, we've even fought the empires, let's have at it" - we would have to pause pretty much every week to deal with all the bandwagon jumpers and retards that think they can get in on some cheap kills.
As fun as fighting is for fighting stake what IS 80% of the thrill of combat in eve, for me, is knowing that it actually ACHIEVES something. I've never fought a war just for the sake of it, there has always been a reason - I know that's how BoB see it, I know that's how [5] see it.
Give us a reason and we'll surely have it out, otherwise we'd effectively be giving up 80% of the enjoyment of this game because we've failed to get any any other way. We've got alot of options to exhaust before the powers that be would even consider it.
I dont think thats what he ment Dianabolic. He was merely pointing out that your alliances are very efficient at fighting, and using them as an "upper tier" in his example. It does not mean you have to fight or even should fight each other, it was pointing out that any other pvp organisation is going to struggle if they try and play you at your own game. Hence people are not bringing big fleets to fight bob because bob are highly effective at such combat and the losses inflicted could be horrible, etc etc, but are trying to find other ways to combat people better than them, rather than trying to get better at what the good guys do than the good guys :0)
Ah ok, lol, sorry, got the wrong end of that stick then :P
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Awen
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Posted - 2005.10.19 13:12:00 -
[63]
Rather than removing BM's why not make them degrade.
If we say that 'things in space move', then the BM you take N weeks ago will become useless over time.
If the general speed of asteroids is higher then collisions are more frequent and perhaps the resultant minerals in the belts get rarer. So the systems with the best roids are the ones where your BM's become useless quicker.
The empire systems can be slow moving ones to prevent noobs getting frustrated.
General markers/beacons which follow the belts, stations, gates would always let you warp to 15km off the back of some signal.
It would probably make it that to defend the highest value 0.0 space would be more work. Making sure you got the BM's right.
But attackers would have to rely on scouts/spies for useful BM's when planning any fleet movements.
I'm thinking that this is bringing a problem in to the idea of anchoring. I guess the definition has to change so that you can only anchor in relation to a nearby object.
I'll not comment on POS's etc... not been in corp life long enough to know much about it.
Anyhow, just thoughts...
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Masta Killa
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Posted - 2005.10.19 13:54:00 -
[64]
Originally by: jamesw
I think its your region tbh.
Stain (and I am speaking from my own experience here) is such an attractive region for the aforementioned activities due to two reasons:
1) High NPC Station count. Self explanatory. Its very easy for your enemies to dock, manufacture, and keep supplies.
2) The "active area" of Stain is huge in comparison to some other areas. This means low pilot concentrations. Its easy to roam pretty freely looking for the lone NPC hunters, and mostly avoid high concentration systems and any actual force. that might be sent after you.
As for avoiding even fights, well thats not my personal preference, but its pretty easy to do that too in the above environment.
Yes you're absolutely right, I never even knew about the gazillion stations in Stain until a few weeks ago and all that other stuff. But I'm trying not to focus my arguments towards myself but towards the whole of the new ganking trend.
I can't really say that much more without tiring out my original arguments 
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Hail Stian Allaince and the emperor who can't spell. ;]
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NoNameNewbie
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Posted - 2005.10.19 14:46:00 -
[65]
well EvE was so much better before Exodus ...
Gemini or early Castor EvE was ftw :/
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EvilDoomer
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Posted - 2005.10.19 15:51:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Masta Killa
A long time ago in a galaxy quite close by, the might of warring corps was measured by just how hard their brass balls were and what kind of cool things they had done.
Those days are long since dead and all that's left are self proclaimed guerilla kings.
Being in an alliance is a joke now, all it gives you is more corps camping the local bottlenecks and more people flying around your regions with cloakers, scouts, instas, safespots, pos's and balls the size of gr ape seeds.
Eve doesn't have the slightest hint of a cold war, this is the middle east and you can take one guess at which party us alliances are.
Overusing things is dumb so I'm not going to say I wish SA/CA was back, since it's 90% nostalgia that makes ppl say "Those were the days".
I don't know how but I do know why this game needs changes, any changes to push players away from this "sitting in a hole until some poor sob walks by" sh*t that's ruling Eve.
If Eve keeps becoming more and more of an Al Quaeda guerilla training game then I don't think many people will be playing it in the coming years.
This argument of mine isn't intended for any special corp or alliance, in case anyone's wondering (logging in less than once a week leaves little room for being ganked).
I hope this argument of mine can bring up a discussion of why the current status of Eve is heading in the wrong direction and ofc for arguments against mine.
I have to agree SA/CA days was the greatest all time fun I had in this game.
I still play. but 1 or 2 times a week and not for really long.
Boring. Most of the time and the ever long training sux. Everytime I get close to something NERF BAT.
and back to retraining. I hate that part of EVE.
And the cost of everything is nutz.
Fun LEVEL 1 of 10.
Just my feelings.
Thanks
EvilDoomer
Chicago Mobsters
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EvilDoomer
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Posted - 2005.10.19 15:52:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Kaeten
If CCP would stop adding new stuff, I would quit.
yes they add new stuff.
BUT !! only the billionares can afford them.
And im not one of them.
Only the Gigantic Carebear corps can.
pvpers stay broke most of the time.
Thanks
EvilDoomer
Chicago Mobsters
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Kamel
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Posted - 2005.10.19 18:06:00 -
[68]
Imo the pvp needs first the changes what ccp talked about more hp in ships and skills with more armor resistances, that would give a few seconds of more fun in batle at least.
In 0.0 i think there are too many npc station, that only makes the 0.0 space to be incontrolable by alliances.
In 0.0 rewards need to be incresased, its simply retarded to do level 4 misions in 0.0, you get less bountyes, and you risk yourself lots more than in empire.
Rebalance the dreads, a team of 5 dreads should be able to kill or at least tank the fire of any pos.
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scorchio
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Posted - 2005.10.19 18:55:00 -
[69]
I don't see why you think that the guerilla squads are such a problem. The tools are there for any alliance to attempt to stop this from happening, it just takes a bit of a organisation and dedication from the alliance in question. If you want to hold a region you should be able to organise a force to defend it. Some alliances are very good at doing so. If it's too easy for guerilla squads to inflict damage on your alliance, then you are making it too easy. Most of the time the numbers will be on your side. But prying the members of some alliance members away from high end ores will always pose a problem. If you are having too many problems in 0.0 maybe you don't really belong there.
The game is a better beast since the days when a frigate or cruiser were only stepping stones till you could afford a battleship. The range of ships and setups is staggering and that suits mixed fleets, which is probably why you have noticed an increase. For the better in my opinion. More variety makes for a more stimulating experience. Can't really comment on the industry side of things, but I have heard it's very.. Erm.. Interesting.
The game is about variety though and it would be a sad day if major, long term, fleet battles took a backseat. Sort the lag out and you open up that side of the game to more use.
Just my opinion.
Oh yeah.. And death to BoB! 
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Gort
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Posted - 2005.10.19 20:24:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Heinky
There are some things that would definently fix eve alot.
1. Move lvl 4 agents to 0.0 or low sec only(might make empire piracy more interesting)
[snip]
3. put more conquareable stations in 0.0 and remove the stupied sovernty rule so people can take the stations without having a force of carebears to setup and fuel pos,s, i think u would get alot more fighting and dedication to defend and atteck.
Signed!
Gort
Makeup artist for the dead |
pringprang
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Posted - 2005.10.19 20:47:00 -
[71]
I really like the changes that have been made to this game recently. I'm excited about the upcomming ones as well. This game has turned away from trying to balance pvp and industry and instead it is focusing on making people work together in all aspects of the game.
Guerilla warfare in EVE is annoying as a member of an alliance in 0.0. I think that the promised player built sentry guns will really cut down on it though. Frigate gangs wont be able to kill one or two BSes at a gate in hostile space just because they are too slow to get away. If smaller gangs in mobile ships wish to go into hostile space and kill stuff they will have to pick their targets a lot more carefully.
Fleet battles will drift out into neutral space again like Catch, Pure Blind, and Providence instead of always being at chokepoints. The defenders will know that the hostile fleet will not jump into their bubbles and sentry guns so if they want to fight they will move the 5 or 6 jumps out to meet the attackers. Some groups wont do this but most will.
Everyone complaining about the lag... I hope you forget to set a long skill tonight for the extended downtime which is an effort to fix it.
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Zigadenus
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Posted - 2005.10.19 22:34:00 -
[72]
Guerilla tactics are great, sniping is great, fleet engagements are great - oh wait, no, fleet engagements suck because of lag. No wonder everyone employs gank squads, guerilla tactics, and sniping.
Fix the lag - nuff said. The rest is trivial.
________________________________________________
Kyle > Why do you have to ask me all these complicated questions?
Zerodragon > Dude, IÆm trying to save your setup from complete suckage. |
CopeLand
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Posted - 2005.10.19 23:17:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Kyle Caldrel
Step one in improving eve- cut the number of 0.0 npc stations by half. For example- the Sancuary (corp in SOE) has 1 station. Thats it. And iirc, theres only 2 npc stations in Gem. Thats how it should be.
That is just ****, this would only lead to that other thing that is even more boring than "guerilla tactics" which is gate gamping/jumping to empire whenver a threat presents itself.
As for the game itself; the solutions are simple
1)Remove WCS totally out of the game
2)Make instajumps skillrelated or just remove them(i personally not a fan of this but surely it would impose a serious changes to a dying game)
3) and hopefully with the upcoming changes of hp per ship and finally some seriously upgraded defences and more skills related to defences, followed by nerfing of stacking dmg modules...... should or atleast has a chance of bringing fighting back into the game(after a years absence)
After these 3 changes all is left is the LAG, but ccp dont like to talk about that as we all know, they want more ppl to fill up already out of date server that couldnt even handle "real battles" when the average number on the server was waaaaaaay under 10k
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Luc Boye
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Posted - 2005.10.19 23:19:00 -
[74]
POS spamming is just lame.
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Masta Killa
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Posted - 2005.10.19 23:53:00 -
[75]
Originally by: CopeLand
Edited by: CopeLand on 19/10/2005 23:25:36"guerilla tactics" are not small gangs or small ships imo, it is filling up your ships with wcs and pushing the idea of "no losses no matter what vs whatever kills u can get" to a surreal degree even Salvador Dali could not have pulled out of his ass.
Quoted for being one of the few who are exactly on point with what I'm thinking.
I've done this kind of fighting, believe me; alone in a stabbed out raven with damps and doing insane sht like warping in on big gangs etc. Doing that allowed me to rack up a ton of kills and I loved it for a while. Blowing up under all sorts of situations and flying back home laughing was ofc included.
That's just the children's version of what's done now; as Copeland described in an excellent way, they emphasise on no losses no matter what and kill anything they can kill without having a chance to die.
Being able to do that is horrible because of course more and more people start doing it. Does anyone think it's a coincidence that half of the suckers playing this game are "hardcore mercs"? You'd have to be more ignorant than everything to not notice how it's evolving. And once this has gone on for a while everyone will have become a merc and everyone will emphasise on never ever ever dying.
Removing warp core stabs would be way cool btw, I'm all for that. They're a vicious circle that people become all but addicted to.
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Hail Stian Allaince and the emperor who can't spell. ;]
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Danton Marcellus
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Posted - 2005.10.20 01:37:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Heinky
There are some things that would definently fix eve alot.
1. Move lvl 4 agents to 0.0 or low sec only(might make empire piracy more interesting)
2. only 1-2 npc station per 0.0 region
3. put more conquareable stations in 0.0 and remove the stupied sovernty rule so people can take the stations without having a force of carebears to setup and fuel pos,s, i think u would get alot more fighting and dedication to defend and atteck.
Here's an idea, maybe you weren't supposed to be able to control Stain or Curse. 
I'm Danton Marcellus and I approve of this message. |
Zen Tao
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Posted - 2005.10.25 02:56:00 -
[77]
I am pretty new to eve - but experience in alot of other games has taught me that anytime you get stats - be it kill mails or even worse rankings you get stat *****s and ganking tactics - people love seeing those numbers or reading those mails and in the end the manner of the kill or achievement becomes secondary.
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Haros
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Posted - 2005.10.25 06:25:00 -
[78]
To the guys posting without reading or comprehending the posters text get a clue this is not bout small gang - blob thingie. This is bout how pvp is conducted. 140km of the g8 n aligned to warp off (warp off as soon as u sense the presence of a cov ops) etc is the kind of tactics that have made pvp boring. Yes they do work fine, but then again so did dual mwd setups so y did CCP nerf them n let this **** continue. whats the point of engaging when u know that as soon as ur target gets a hint that he might actually be in for half a ship loss will disapear.
Some good ideas popin up here. I agree with most except the BM removal one. Traveling times are bad enough as it is atm. Btw the upcoming increasing of ship HP will reduce sniping effect but will still give more time to a wcs fitted ship to warp out. Y not apply the mod penalty to wcs. Say no ship can use more than 2. I dont have a solution for other boring tactics ppl are employin nowdays though.
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BuRnEr
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Posted - 2005.10.25 06:34:00 -
[79]
AS long you can avoid PvP by: logging of at jumpin (no timer), safespot, instajump to gate or station this game is¦t going to get any better, no titan or carrrier can fix that.
after all it¦s a PvP game, dont forget that.
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Equinox II
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Posted - 2005.10.25 07:13:00 -
[80]
They should make stabs high-slot, or leave them low-slot and have them disable one high slot for each stabs.. The ability to fit all low stabs, mid ewar and still be able to have a full rack of guns/launchers is just stupid..
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Threx
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Posted - 2005.10.25 08:45:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Threx on 25/10/2005 08:47:34
Edited by: Threx on 25/10/2005 08:47:19
what you would be doing with a majoirty of these changes is removing the fun smaller groups of people would ever be able to have in this game so the Motto would be Assimilate or Mine thats not a game i would want to play and yes lets make stabs high slots and lets make people that tank have 0 highslots so they cant fire when they are able to live longer then any normal person in a battle that will fix everything (last part is obvious sarcasm)
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Threx
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Posted - 2005.10.25 08:51:00 -
[82]
only problem with what we have today is soverinety abuse and cowardly big alliaces that are so plump with carebears no one wants to fight because they are to busy fattening thierselves and not halping the alliance in anyway
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DB Preacher
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Posted - 2005.10.25 09:08:00 -
[83]
Agree with alot of what has been said here.
Personally I enjoy the small scraps that come with guerilla warfare, they can be more fun than anything.
However, I hate the lack of big fleet battles. They are seriously in thier minority these days and that's where I always felt I excelled at in this game. It does mean I dip in and out of the game a lot less these days than if I was assured constant fleet battles as we have previously.
I can wait though :)
dbp
Current RKK Ranking: (CAL5) Kenin
Drop by and say hi in Reikoku Forums.
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RichThugster
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Posted - 2005.10.25 09:23:00 -
[84]
probably already mentioned
Move lvl 4 agents out of oursulaert, jita etc, move them to surrounding systems, put the much better ones into low sec, thus adding the slightest element of danger to it. This alone will drop many lag issues in the packed systems.
the reason less ppl want to be in 0.0 is because there are plenty more ways to earn similar amounts of isk in empire without risk. keep empire good for new players, but make it so older players in BS and hacs, cant really make much more money than a new player. Perhaps make it so you can use just half of your mining lasers whilst in 1.0 if in battleship (ie dominix could use 3) this will make it less appealing to players who would sit afk and mine in high sec all day. Apply similar penalties such as missions tax to concord in high sec
There is too much isk in the game, now despite this, people should be taking part in more huge battles, but choose not to, why i dont know, but when there was lots less isk in the game it was sooo much more exciting, and big battles happened more often
just my few ideas
Originally by: Soren
And it is something that their logs can track.
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.10.25 09:52:00 -
[85]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 25/10/2005 09:55:44
I believe that a proper 'military force' of PvPers need a support mechanism. I _like_ the fact that financing and running a capital ship requires some serious industrial power.
The problem that I see is there's effectively no way to 'project' power. No 'home ground' advantage.
If you don't have the manpower available 23/7 to patrol/blockade, you cannot 'secure' space. On any scale at all.
No, I'm not saying that it should be possible to totally blockade systems/constellations (and I think that is the level to look at, rather than regions) but enough that "guerilla tactics" of BS full of stabs, or frigate raids or whatever become a little easier to deal with.
The solution, IMO is constellation soverignty, and the ability to deploy defenses (sentry guns) and intel gathering tools - starbase related, perhaps, but something like a 'remote' system scanner, or 'view who's in local'.
Lets face it, maintaining 'defense' as it stands is pretty boring - especially if you're looking to run an industrial operation, there really is no way to prevent a gank squad 'slipping through'.
I think the 'right' solution is to change the landscape, such that claiming a system/constellation is actually meaningful. At the moment, sovereignty drops fuel costs and makes a blob on the map.
Oh, and is only really important in terms of conquerable stations.
I also think that the 'roving ganker' _shouldn't_ be able to maintain the same amount of hardware as a logistically well organised 'empire'. I think capital ships are changing, and will continue to change the way things go. And that they're the kind of scale of operation that needs decent industrial support.
Oh, and it doesn't help that large swathes of 0.0 is basically worthless, compared to empire. Ore less good than low sec (I'm not saying that every system in 0.0 should have Arkonor and Mercoxit, but I do think a larger proportion need the midrange ores e.g. jaspet, hed, hem, etc.), rats at belts better (marginally in some), but lower mission availability. However that's a different rant for a different day...
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Fred0
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Posted - 2005.10.25 09:59:00 -
[86]
Having further defense mechanisms than actually player controlled ones might be worth looking into. The precedent was set with pos.
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imanaltwhoareyou
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Posted - 2005.10.25 10:16:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Threx
only problem with what we have today is soverinety abuse and cowardly big alliaces that are so plump with carebears no one wants to fight because they are to busy fattening thierselves and not halping the alliance in anyway
Maybe your alliance.
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Shin Ra
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Posted - 2005.10.25 10:26:00 -
[88]
I don't think 0.0 should be easy to defend. It should be difficult as hell. The problem is its not valuable enough as things stand. When the combat boosters things come in, the hopefully this should create more value worth fighting for.
Being invulnerable, or forcing attackers to tank sentries is stupid.
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DeadDuck
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Posted - 2005.10.25 10:52:00 -
[89]
Just my 5 cents in here. I think that a big part of the problem is just the huge cost of the fitouts and ships ... That is the main reason why people just tend to not fight and blob and etc etc etc... you can be the owner of a considerable fortune but at war you may find yourself poor in less then a week ... The huge amount of money required to fit the ships with tec2 items ( Cap Recahergers at 12-14m , the huge cost of tec2 ships (look at the prices of the HAC's rounding 100m each ) just make people afraid to fight ... and loose their priceless ship ...
2 solutions, drop the general prices or increase the hability of making money ... I think that the right move will be the 1st one.
I can understand a owner of a HAC that costs about 100 m and with a fit out of 30-40m, and with, a ridiculous insurance, would think 2 or 3 times before go to battle and risk loose 140m in less then 30s ...
Thats why people run away, thats why people dont help the corp m8's ... thats why they only think in mining and make money ... thats why alliances collapse in the first serious shooting ...
It's all very expensive
Drop the prices and you will see PVP growing ... and that would be wonderfull .
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NumBerGuy
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Posted - 2005.10.25 11:16:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Masta Killa
A long time ago in a galaxy quite close by, the might of warring corps was measured by just how hard their brass balls were and what kind of cool things they had done.
Those days are long since dead and all that's left are self proclaimed guerilla kings.
Being in an alliance is a joke now, all it gives you is more corps camping the local bottlenecks and more people flying around your regions with cloakers, scouts, instas, safespots, pos's and balls the size of gr ape seeds.
Eve doesn't have the slightest hint of a cold war, this is the middle east and you can take one guess at which party us alliances are.
Overusing things is dumb so I'm not going to say I wish SA/CA was back, since it's 90% nostalgia that makes ppl say "Those were the days".
I don't know how but I do know why this game needs changes, any changes to push players away from this "sitting in a hole until some poor sob walks by" sh*t that's ruling Eve.
If Eve keeps becoming more and more of an Al Quaeda guerilla training game then I don't think many people will be playing it in the coming years.
This argument of mine isn't intended for any special corp or alliance, in case anyone's wondering (logging in less than once a week leaves little room for being ganked).
I hope this argument of mine can bring up a discussion of why the current status of Eve is heading in the wrong direction and ofc for arguments against mine.
I never thought I would see the day where I agreed with Masta.....but I do 100%
sigh what next......
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