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Delirium Cordia
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 21:03:00 -
[1] - Quote
Amarr race always suffered due to restriction to EM/Thermal damage. Well, Amarr can use rockets with all varieties of damage as well, but do they have lots of dedicated ships for this? Usuwally the enemy thinks: "let's tank EM / thermal and we should be fine." Damage type restriction on laser weapons makes some difficulties with missions too.
Introducing new line of frequency crystals would be a good move, for example 50% Kin / 40% Therm / 10% EM
Why not explosive damage? Well, laser may interfere with shields by exploding (any fans of Frank Herbert's Dune series?), but it's hard to explain why beam explodes on impact with armor Kinetic damage sounds much more reliably (heavily focused beam which projects some kinetic energy as a result). Anyway CCP are wise guys, they could manage to make a whole story about inventing new frequency crystals.
So, any thoughts? |

Ruze
Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries
277
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 21:09:00 -
[2] - Quote
I would argue YES, but I don't. Here's why:
Through recent changes and advancements, only about 60% of Amarr ships are incapable of doing other damage types. Why 60%? Because the other 40% have been given large drone bays, launcher hardpoints, and in many cases, simply no weapon bonus at all, making the use of autocannons and artillery far better an option.
We've been granted the ability to diversify quite well. Adding more versatility in our damage capabilities at this point would almost completely throw the developer reasoning for converting so many Amarr assets into amalgamations of Gallente or Caldari ships, that it would create fire and brimstone on a threadpocalypse level. If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that? |

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
671
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 21:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
Damage types are sorted as per "what he said".
What we need is tracking .. lots and lots of tracking. All crystals should have a tracking bonus so that we have the option of sacrificing dps for the ability to actually apply dps (ie. same as is done with projectile ammo) .. we are screwed for cap anyway so might as well get rid of the never-used reduction on crystals while we are at it (all calcs are made using MF/Scorch which have no reduction so zero loss on the whole). |

Delirium Cordia
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.05.20 21:21:00 -
[4] - Quote
Interesting point of view, Ruze. Especially the second part.
But there should be something done about laser weaponry and I fear that suggested changes for Odyssey simply wont make it. |

Iudicium Vastus
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
19
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 21:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
I think Kin/Exp damaging crystals would be a bit out of place. It's sucks energy turrets are limited to Em/Therm types, but also looking at Gallente, they're limited to Kin/Therm in the hybrid turrets, with a few T2 ships granting bonuses to missiles.
What Amarr do need while maintaining sense is a Thermal heavy crystal. Some of the damage ratios of crystals are roughly 50/50 in Em/Therm and then just skew quite heavy into the Em side of the scale beyond that, with none having a Therm leaning at all. A crystal that does a huge amount of thermal damage of a close range/high damage variety would be nice.
We Amarr pilots have EM heavy options to shoot at shields, but what about a Thermal heavy version for hitting armor? |

Delirium Cordia
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 21:30:00 -
[6] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
What we need is tracking .. lots and lots of tracking. All crystals should have a tracking bonus so that we have the option of sacrificing dps for the ability to actually apply dps (ie. same as is done with projectile ammo) ..
I must admit that you have a point.
|

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
274
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 22:07:00 -
[7] - Quote
The main thing to happen with crystals is give us a choice between EM heavy or Thermal heavy. While the T2 Crystals can (& I think are) semi balanced between the two.
This can be done easily by removing the 25% range steps. Which I've found not so many people make use of, simply due to the micro management involved and the fact reloading crystals is not instant due to server ticks. Normally stopping guns costs you a second as the server realises you have actually stopped. Then the click time to change, & the server tick to recognise that before you can actually resume firing. It's still faster than other guns, but the reality is 2-3 seconds normally.
This then gives us 6 kinds of T1 Ammo, 2 at +50%/0/-50% which lets us choose EM or Therm heavy damage. Giving us a little flexibility, especially at long range where Amarr only do EM damage pretty much on the T1 crystals.
CCP have said a Laser Rebalance is somewhere on their list, though not at the top. So maybe a year or two. |

Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
1271
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 22:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Why should projectiles and missiles lose an advantage? And would you extend this buff to hybrids too, or just make it effectively a nerf to them? |

Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant Tribal Band
435
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 22:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ruze wrote:I would argue YES, but I don't. Here's why:
Through recent changes and advancements, only about 60% of Amarr ships are incapable of doing other damage types. Why 60%? Because the other 40% have been given large drone bays, launcher hardpoints, and in many cases, simply no weapon bonus at all, making the use of autocannons and artillery far better an option.
We've been granted the ability to diversify quite well. Adding more versatility in our damage capabilities at this point would almost completely throw the developer reasoning for converting so many Amarr assets into amalgamations of Gallente or Caldari ships, that it would create fire and brimstone on a threadpocalypse level.
/thread I Endorse this Product and/or Service EVE Online Battle Recorder When I press F1 I get ISK |

0wl
Pocket Pirates
33
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 23:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
I'm a huge Amarr fan, but giving them variable dmg types would be the weapon system far to powerful imo. I do think however some the Mattari T2 EM resists are some what extreme. |

Grunnax Aurelius
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Nightingales of Hades
129
|
Posted - 2013.05.20 23:54:00 -
[11] - Quote
0wl wrote:I'm a huge Amarr fan, but giving them variable dmg types would be the weapon system far to powerful imo. I do think however some the Mattari T2 EM resists are some what extreme.
You can easily say the same about T2 Amarr Resists, a Vengeance with a damage control, one adaptive nano plating and level 5 assault ship skill has, 74.2% EM, 66.5% Thermal, 80.7% Kinetic and 89.7% Explovive resistance. So if Minmatar T2 have high EM and Thermal resistance I think it is completely balanced. Two Teir Carriers-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=207604&find=unread |

Aglais
Liberation Army Li3 Federation
280
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 00:20:00 -
[12] - Quote
While we're at it, let's give blasters and railguns ammo types that do different kinds of damage. Let's cut the DPS of blasters a bit, give them really, really good falloff too, and then call them "Autocannons".
Also, we should consider giving Railguns a massive increase in volley damage while basically throwing their rate of fire into the toilet, and also cutting down their range somewhat.
I think this new and incredibly powerful weapon system should be christened "Artillery". |

sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
1101
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 00:31:00 -
[13] - Quote
Lasers are already the 2nd best weapon system in game overall. And exp lasers are harder to explain lore wise.
Hybrids should be the ones getting dmg variations. They could use a boost, and not only would it be easy to explain lore wise, it's hard to explain why different element hybrid ammos don't already do different dmg types. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |

Ruze
Next Stage Initiative Trans-Stellar Industries
282
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 00:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Lasers are already the 2nd best weapon system in game overall. And exp lasers are harder to explain lore wise.
Hybrids should be the ones getting dmg variations. They could use a boost, and not only would it be easy to explain lore wise, it's hard to explain why different element hybrid ammos don't already do different dmg types.
A great weapon system on paper, which significantly penalizes the usefulness of the ship when used, and cannot be reasonably be fitted on ships that don't receive specific bonuses to do so.
Hybrids are used by two races which each have options for completing their damage portfolio. They aren't exactly hindered, especially since hybrid damage types specifically address shields and armor in turn, and caldari missiles and gallente drones receive far more boosts within their race than, say, Amarr.
All in all, I'm feeling it's kind of balanced around here, though I predict an equally large threadnought if Amarr were left as the only two-damage primary weapon system. If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality.-á That 'griefer/thief' is probably more sane than you are.-á How screwed up is that? |

Grunnax Aurelius
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Nightingales of Hades
129
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 01:00:00 -
[15] - Quote
Ruze wrote:sabre906 wrote:Lasers are already the 2nd best weapon system in game overall. And exp lasers are harder to explain lore wise.
Hybrids should be the ones getting dmg variations. They could use a boost, and not only would it be easy to explain lore wise, it's hard to explain why different element hybrid ammos don't already do different dmg types. A great weapon system on paper, which significantly penalizes the usefulness of the ship when used, and cannot be reasonably be fitted on ships that don't receive specific bonuses to do so. Hybrids are used by two races which each have options for completing their damage portfolio. They aren't exactly hindered, especially since hybrid damage types specifically address shields and armor in turn, and caldari missiles and gallente drones receive far more boosts within their race than, say, Amarr. All in all, I'm feeling it's kind of balanced around here, though I predict an equally large threadnought if Amarr were left as the only two-damage primary weapon system.
Seeing as Hybrids address shield and armour, make lasers EM/Explosive instead of EM/Thermal, however I dont experience any problems with the damage of lasers against armour ships when I use them and dont feel their damage type needs to change to be honest. Two Teir Carriers-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=207604&find=unread |

Brent Anderson
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 01:38:00 -
[16] - Quote
I have a Idea to Address the lack of damage variation to the laser weapons.
Mining lasers use a tunneling laser to bore into rock and a tractor system that draws in the raw materials.
reverse this Idea, make laser crystals with metal cores that when the laser is fired it strips the core material and strikes the target with alternate forms of damage (I.E. Lead, Iron and Tungsten do Kinetic. Uranium,plutonium do explosive) allowing variation to which weapon damage type works best against the target.
Also these Metal cored crystals have a limited Lifespan of shots as with each shot they strip more and more of the core material with each shot. Thus making them "Ammo" limited weapons.
Such "Core" crystals could be easily added to the game as blueprints that us crystals and the needed rail/blaster ammo to manufacture them. Display wise adding off color motes into the laser stream should make note that this is a "Core" crystal in use. |

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
146
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 02:48:00 -
[17] - Quote
Brent Anderson wrote:I have a Idea to Address the lack of damage variation to the laser weapons.
Mining lasers use a tunneling laser to bore into rock and a tractor system that draws in the raw materials.
reverse this Idea, make laser crystals with metal cores that when the laser is fired it strips the core material and strikes the target with alternate forms of damage (I.E. Lead, Iron and Tungsten do Kinetic. Uranium,plutonium do explosive) allowing variation to which weapon damage type works best against the target.
Also these Metal cored crystals have a limited Lifespan of shots as with each shot they strip more and more of the core material with each shot. Thus making them "Ammo" limited weapons.
Such "Core" crystals could be easily added to the game as blueprints that us crystals and the needed rail/blaster ammo to manufacture them. Display wise adding off color motes into the laser stream should make note that this is a "Core" crystal in use.
This weapon system is in game already. They are hybrids, but for some reason only do Kinetic and Thermal damage. |

Psychoactive Stimulant
TinklePee
6
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 03:16:00 -
[18] - Quote
Aglais wrote:While we're at it, let's give blasters and railguns ammo types that do different kinds of damage. Let's cut the DPS of blasters a bit, give them really, really good falloff too, and then call them "Autocannons".
Also, we should consider giving Railguns a massive increase in volley damage while basically throwing their rate of fire into the toilet, and also cutting down their range somewhat.
I think this new and incredibly powerful weapon system should be christened "Artillery".
I think they already have those. |

Paikis
Vapour Holdings
824
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 09:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
Better idea: Projectiles are currently the only gun type that has selectable damage. Return them to expl/kin only and call it done. Minmatar boats have drones and missiles too. Also, while we're at it, make them use a small amount of cap so that neuts have an effect on them. Doesn't have to be a huge amount of cap, just enough so you can't fire them while being neuted. |

Doddy
Dark-Rising
838
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 10:31:00 -
[20] - Quote
Lets give the already frighteningly op pulse lasers choice of damage (which they can instantly change) as well, what can possibly go wrong?
Truth is lmited damage types only matters at all if your enemy knows what you are going to be fielding, and if your enemy knows what you will be fielding you have worse problems than damage types. Normal fits are all omni tanked so whether you have em/therm lasers or kin/therm hybrids is largely irrelevant. The damage adaptability of projectiles is massively overestmated (it doesn't exist on t2 ammo and even with t1 ammo it only allows for partial coverage often with 3 damage types meaning you are always doing one of the worst damage types as well). Only missiles allow for true damage type choice and they are limited in plenty other ways. |

To mare
Advanced Technology
193
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 10:55:00 -
[21] - Quote
i would really like to know how a laser can possibly deal KIN damage |

Ziester
No Fixed Abode Mildly Intoxicated
2
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 11:06:00 -
[22] - Quote
Or you could just cross-train, and not too far either. Through the years, as it's already been said every race has been granted what they were missing amongst gunships, missile platforms and drone boats, to the point that now it's fairly easy to cross-train another race.
Say you're Amarr. You have access to lasers and drones, and a couple missile ships. Due to drone boats, you can easily train Gallente ships, and Due to missile platforms, you can train Caldari ships, with a little bit more training though.
Regarding the ship's diversity, races are pretty equal and yet still specialized in their own way. Last thing we need is every races being simiilar with just weapons visual effects being different.
In a more blunt way, if you want the ability to deal various damage types, train Caldari / Minmatar. |

Mole Guy
Xoth Inc Unclaimed.
97
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 11:09:00 -
[23] - Quote
how the hell do u make light, passing through a crystal, do something other than heat and em?
we have the new geddon. it has drones AND torps/cruise. theres your damage selection
now, the only thing we as amarrians can do is change from em/thermal to thermal/em. more thermal damage as opposed to more em. we can adopt the minie ranges and select the damage type. but as far as explosive or kinetic, forget it...we are doomed to em and therm. which, if u think about his, getting thermal cruise and explosive drones makes for a hard time to defend against. trying to tank normal races will not work in this case. so itll be a change.
but we do need to mix up em and thermal. |

Shimrod Ombreflamme
Reclamation Technologies Libertus Coventu Alliance
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 11:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
Physic says no.
Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.
So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers. |

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
671
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 12:05:00 -
[25] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Lets give the already frighteningly op pulse lasers choice of damage (which they can instantly change) as well, what can possibly go wrong?
Truth is limited damage types only matters at all if your enemy knows what you are going to be fielding, and if your enemy knows what you will be fielding you have worse problems than damage types. Normal fits are all omni tanked so whether you have em/therm lasers or kin/therm hybrids is largely irrelevant. The damage adaptability of projectiles is massively overestimated (it doesn't exist on t2 ammo and even with t1 ammo it only allows for partial coverage often with 3 damage types meaning you are always doing one of the worst damage types as well). Only missiles allow for true damage type choice and they are limited in plenty other ways. OP has already uttered doubt as to the value/viability of her initial suggestion so don't fret, we laser wielders got it covered. 
On projectiles: T2 ammo is indeed fairly unforgiving by favouring EXP/Kin but in T1 only two out of eight have a triple damage type, namely EMP and DU so is about as adaptive as can be, especially when lower base damage = range and/or tracking .. to further increase adaptability projectiles were given three high damage/low range options with nearly pure type selection, EMP (75% EM), Fusion (83% EXP) and Phased Plasma (83% Therm). CCP did an uncommonly thorough job when they revised projectile ammo, and if you place a 1-in-4 (the triple types) in the often category then you need to go elsewhere when shopping because you are missing out on what projectiles have to offer.
Did the legwork using current numbers New and improved; T2 crystals as is. Heatsink RoF modifier changed to damage ditto, for T2 make it 22.5% damage which is 0.4% dps decrease .. small (maybe too small) price to pay.
Multifrequency: 36 EM, 12 TH. -50% optimal range. Gamma: 36 TH, 12 EM. -50% optimal range.
Xray: 24 EM, 12 TH. +20% tracking. Ultraviolet: 24 TH, 12 EM. +20% tracking.
Standard: 24 EM, 12 TH. 25% reduced capacitor need (note: This is only half the bonus present on hybrid ammo!) Infrared: 24 TH, 12 EM. 25% reduced capacitor need. (note: This is only half the bonus present on hybrid ammo!)
Microwave: 15 TH, 5 EM. +60% optimal range. +5% tracking. Radio: 15 EM, 5 TH. +60% optimal range. +5% tracking.
Four groups each both EM and Thermal represented, divided into three range bands with the middle having twin flavours of tracking and sustainability.
|

0wl
Pocket Pirates
33
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 12:12:00 -
[26] - Quote
Grunnax Aurelius wrote:0wl wrote:I'm a huge Amarr fan, but giving them variable dmg types would be the weapon system far to powerful imo. I do think however some the Mattari T2 EM resists are some what extreme. You can easily say the same about T2 Amarr Resists, a Vengeance with a damage control, one adaptive nano plating and level 5 assault ship skill has, 74.2% EM, 66.5% Thermal, 80.7% Kinetic and 89.7% Explovive resistance. So if Minmatar T2 have high EM and Thermal resistance I think it is completely balanced.
They dont start with 90% resists though.
|

Ix Method
Porphyrean Genetic Enterprises
26
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 12:18:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:The main thing to happen with crystals is give us a choice between EM heavy or Thermal heavy. While the T2 Crystals can (& I think are) semi balanced between the two.
This can be done easily by removing the 25% range steps... This then gives us 6 kinds of T1 Ammo, 2 at +50%/0/-50% which lets us choose EM or Therm heavy damage. Giving us a little flexibility, especially at long range where Amarr only do EM damage pretty much on the T1 crystals. Yes yes yes yes yes yes yes.
Yes. |

Galinius Valgani
The Nerazim
1
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 12:37:00 -
[28] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote: Did the legwork using current numbers New and improved; T2 crystals as is. Heatsink RoF modifier changed to damage ditto, for T2 make it 22.5% damage which is 0.4% dps decrease .. small (maybe too small) price to pay.
Multifrequency: 36 EM, 12 TH. -50% optimal range. Gamma: 36 TH, 12 EM. -50% optimal range.
Xray: 24 EM, 12 TH. +20% tracking. Ultraviolet: 24 TH, 12 EM. +20% tracking.
Standard: 24 EM, 12 TH. 25% reduced capacitor need (note: This is only half the bonus present on hybrid ammo!) Infrared: 24 TH, 12 EM. 25% reduced capacitor need. (note: This is only half the bonus present on hybrid ammo!)
Microwave: 15 TH, 5 EM. +60% optimal range. +5% tracking. Radio: 15 EM, 5 TH. +60% optimal range. +5% tracking.
Four groups each both EM and Thermal represented, divided into three range bands with the middle having twin flavours of tracking and sustainability.
I do really like this Idea. :) And for T2 there are so much more interesting Ideas than simply more damage( especially when considering that T1 damage is not that bad). You could simply give T2 Ammo the possibility to absorb overheat damage. So its useful and needed in high amounts :D You could choose to do 5% more Damage for using T2 or 20% more for X seconds... |

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
671
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 12:54:00 -
[29] - Quote
Galinius Valgani wrote:...You could simply give T2 Ammo the possibility to absorb overheat damage. So its useful and needed in high amounts :D You could choose to do 5% more Damage for using T2 or 20% more for X seconds... I'd much rather inflict heat damage than reduce my own to be honest .. would be right up Conflags ally judging by its name  |

Caljiav Ocanon
16
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 13:21:00 -
[30] - Quote
There probably should be EM/Therm and Therm/EM crystals. Makes sense to me anyway.
The other one is rail guns. Rail guns should do immense kinetic damage, more than any other ammo/gun system by far. The extreme velocity of a rail gun charge means it penetrates armor better than a larger, slower arty round. They should have higher alpha than arty.
Artillery comes in two forms, shot and shell. Depending on type it will either have a payload or be kinetic only. This payload can be anything from toxic gas to a small atomic weapon and only your imagination is the limit here.
What I would like to see is a rebalance of all the gun/ammo/missile types in game. Right now it's a mess. I know people don't like change but the way it's setup now is very unimaginative for a futuristic space game. Though I fly through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil, for I am aligned to a safespot and warping out. - Me 2013 |
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