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Phobeus Primae
EVIL ONES
0
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Posted - 2013.05.21 13:33:00 -
[31] - Quote
Shimrod Ombreflamme wrote:Physic says no.
Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.
So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers. Actually physics say yes.
According to famous E = mc2, mechanics and a fact, that super-massive blackholes bend the light (or even trap it inside due to significant gravity), the photons while carrying energy should have the mass. And having a mass plus velocity means kinetic energy. Now all we need is uber-advanced device which increases mass of photons. |

Xeros Black
Forced Penetration Here Be Dragons
5
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 15:22:00 -
[32] - Quote
No to lasers having different damage types
Maybe to lasers having Therm/EM crystals instead of just EM/Therm crystals |

RoAnnon
Strategic Acquisitions Group Tactical Research Lab
70
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 17:06:00 -
[33] - Quote
Shimrod Ombreflamme wrote:Physic says no.
Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.
So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers.
If you're going to bring physics into it, let's look at the explosive damage type. Explosions are fiery, cause a shockwave and throw bits of debris about. Considering space is a vacuum, the shockwave is not going to be a factor. Which leaves us with essentially a combination of thermal damage from the blast, plus kinetic damage from the bits of shrapnel or whatever that are thrown out.
Explosive damage isn't really viable at all as a separate type.
So, you're a bounty hunter. No, that ain't it at all. Then what are you? I'm a bounty hunter. |

Grunnax Aurelius
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Nightingales of Hades
129
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 21:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
Doddy wrote:Lets give the already frighteningly op pulse lasers choice of damage (which they can instantly change) as well, what can possibly go wrong?
Truth is lmited damage types only matters at all if your enemy knows what you are going to be fielding, and if your enemy knows what you will be fielding you have worse problems than damage types. Normal fits are all omni tanked so whether you have em/therm lasers or kin/therm hybrids is largely irrelevant. The damage adaptability of projectiles is massively overestmated (it doesn't exist on t2 ammo and even with t1 ammo it only allows for partial coverage often with 3 damage types meaning you are always doing one of the worst damage types as well). Only missiles allow for true damage type choice and they are limited in plenty other ways.
Just to reinforce what your saying. Missiles and Projectiles also have 10 second reload times, whereas Hybrids have a 5 second reload time and Lasers 1 second. Reasoning, Missiles and Projectiles have selectable damage types and are cap less weapons. 10 second reload Hybrids are a fixed damage type, but because both damage types are good against both types of tank and have moderate cap usage. 5 second reload Lasers have a damage type more towards fighting shield tankers, but have good ranges, good damage and high cap usage. 1 second reload Two Teir Carriers-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=207604&find=unread |

Grunnax Aurelius
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Nightingales of Hades
129
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
0wl wrote:Grunnax Aurelius wrote:0wl wrote:I'm a huge Amarr fan, but giving them variable dmg types would be the weapon system far to powerful imo. I do think however some the Mattari T2 EM resists are some what extreme. You can easily say the same about T2 Amarr Resists, a Vengeance with a damage control, one adaptive nano plating and level 5 assault ship skill has, 74.2% EM, 66.5% Thermal, 80.7% Kinetic and 89.7% Explovive resistance. So if Minmatar T2 have high EM and Thermal resistance I think it is completely balanced. They dont start with 90% resists though.
You wana go down this road, fine!!!
Retribution: 80% Explosive and 62.5% Kinetic Resistance (Armour) All 5 no mods Vengeance: 85% Explosive and 71.9% Kinetic Resistance (Armour) All 5 no mods Jaguar: 75% EM and 60% Thermal Resistance (Shield) All 5 no mods Wolf: 90% EM and 67.5% Thermal Resistance (Armour) All 5 no mods
Seems fair to me!!! Two Teir Carriers-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=207604&find=unread |

Grunnax Aurelius
luna Oscura Clandestina Armada The Nightingales of Hades
129
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 22:10:00 -
[36] - Quote
Caljiav Ocanon wrote:There probably should be EM/Therm and Therm/EM crystals. Makes sense to me anyway.
The other one is rail guns. Rail guns should do immense kinetic damage, more than any other ammo/gun system by far. The extreme velocity of a rail gun charge means it penetrates armor better than a larger, slower arty round. They should have higher alpha than arty.
Artillery comes in two forms, shot and shell. Depending on type it will either have a payload or be kinetic only. This payload can be anything from toxic gas to a small atomic weapon and only your imagination is the limit here.
What I would like to see is a rebalance of all the gun/ammo/missile types in game. Right now it's a mess. I know people don't like change but the way it's setup now is very unimaginative for a futuristic space game.
Of this I approve, Railguns should do more RAW Kinetic Damage, either deal more damage than Artillery because of Physics, or some damage below them and add a Armour Penetration chance to bypass some armour and deal hull damage, because of Physics. Two Teir Carriers-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=207604&find=unread |

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
276
|
Posted - 2013.05.21 23:34:00 -
[37] - Quote
Shimrod Ombreflamme wrote:Physic says no.
Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.
So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers. Actually, like you just said, Light is made of a particle. That does actually have a physical impact. Hence why solar sails are possible, since the kinetic motion of the photon is transferable to the ship the solar sail is on. So, Physics actually says yes. They have found with RL laser weapons that a pulse of a laser often has a kinetic impact on the target also. Resulting in exactly the same result as a bullet would have done. Depends on the exact frequencies used obviously. But light is both a wave & a particle at the same time. However, RL Physics is irrelevant to Eve, regardless, since we don't use RL physics. |

Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
303
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 00:52:00 -
[38] - Quote
If drones were balanced so that all damage types were viable choices, this would not be an issue.
The EM/Th and TH/EM ammo design is excellent though. Crystals are already designed around this idea- unfortunately, some idiot spread the change out by range as well, and the long range damage penalty trumps any damage type selection. We really don't need 8 different range brackets, so doubling them up into 4 brackets with 2 EM/Th profiles is a great idea. - Mission Overhaul - Bridging the PVP / PVE Gap - -áIf the game stops teaching people to fear lowsec, maybe people will start going there? |

Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
95
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 07:04:00 -
[39] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Shimrod Ombreflamme wrote:Physic says no.
Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.
So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers. Actually, like you just said, Light is made of a particle. That does actually have a physical impact. Hence why solar sails are possible, since the kinetic motion of the photon is transferable to the ship the solar sail is on. So, Physics actually says yes. They have found with RL laser weapons that a pulse of a laser often has a kinetic impact on the target also. Resulting in exactly the same result as a bullet would have done. Depends on the exact frequencies used obviously. But light is both a wave & a particle at the same time. However, RL Physics is irrelevant to Eve, regardless, since we don't use RL physics.
This. Short wavelength lasers in a burst can very rapidly ionize only a thin outer layer of a target surface into plasma, which immediately blasts back off the target, applying a kinetic impact. |

Lai HasCake
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
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Posted - 2013.05.22 07:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
Rented wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:Shimrod Ombreflamme wrote:Physic says no.
Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.
So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers. Actually, like you just said, Light is made of a particle. That does actually have a physical impact. Hence why solar sails are possible, since the kinetic motion of the photon is transferable to the ship the solar sail is on. So, Physics actually says yes. They have found with RL laser weapons that a pulse of a laser often has a kinetic impact on the target also. Resulting in exactly the same result as a bullet would have done. Depends on the exact frequencies used obviously. But light is both a wave & a particle at the same time. However, RL Physics is irrelevant to Eve, regardless, since we don't use RL physics. Lasers applied in a burst can very rapidly ionize only a thin outer layer of a target surface into plasma, which immediately blasts back off the target, applying a kinetic impact.
This isn't what happens in a vacuum and you can't state what would happen when they are absorbed by shields either.
Lasers don't need adjustment. Sure they have strengths and weaknesses but so does every system. If you want to be able to deal different damage types you will have to put up with a 10 second reload time like missiles and projectiles.
And quit complaining you have Scorch. |

TheGunslinger42
All Web Investigations
1314
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 07:45:00 -
[41] - Quote
The limited damage type is a trade off for other things, it's not a big deal considering how many amarr ships are now backed up by drones and even missiles |

Ashriban Kador
Viziam Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 10:35:00 -
[42] - Quote
They way I see crystals should work is
Radio - Standard: EM damage, gradually moving towards Therm. Radio = 100% EM/ 0% Therm Microwave = 80% EM/ 20% Therm Infared = 75% EM/ 25% Therm Standard = 60% EM/ 40% Therm
Ultraviolet - Multifrequency: Therm damage, gradually moving towards EM. Ultraviolet = 40% EM/60% Therm X Ray = 25% EM/ 75% Therm Gamma = 20% EM/ 80% Therm Multifrequency = 0% EM/ 100% Therm
Have the 'LR' crystals do mostly shield damage, the 'SR' crystals doing mostly armor damage.
Then Conflag and Gleam are heavy close range Thermal/Armor damage crystals and Scorch and Aurora are both long range EM/Shield damage crystals.
There. Damage type selection. The numbers can be messed with of course, as they are meerly suggestions.
Also: I wouldn't be opposed to removing one of the short range crystals and adjusting things so Standard is a straight 50/50 split. And if people think damage selection on lasers is 'too powerful' I don't mind having even T1 crystals break on occasion, provided that CCP find a way to make a full rack of grouped guns all crack their crystals at once. :/ Having to regroup guns in the middle of a fight on those rare occasions when you suddenly find your on your last 8 Scorch is a pain in the ass! Your goals may align with some ... and with others, collide with the force of suns. |

Kagura Nikon
Mentally Assured Destruction Whores in space
337
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 11:07:00 -
[43] - Quote
0wl wrote:I'm a huge Amarr fan, but giving them variable dmg types would be the weapon system far to powerful imo. I do think however some the Mattari T2 EM resists are some what extreme.
Amarr have same bonus but against explosive. All races have same bonus to t2 resists.
On the other comments. some a LOL. Scorch without trackign penalty woudl be overpowered and the apoc woudl simply burn frigates left and right at 60 km. That will not happen.
What need to be done is an overall overhaul on tacklin in even so that the engagement range of 20-40 km becomes more valuable.. |

Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
427
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 11:21:00 -
[44] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:And exp lasers are harder to explain lore wise.
Not at all, Kinetic lasers would be. Explosive lasers should be limited to pulse lasers.
Shimrod Ombreflamme wrote:Physic says no.
Laser are made of light, light is made of photons, photons do not explode and have kinetic impact.
So, EM and Thermal only for Lasers.
So many people on EVE fail at physics.
http://panoptesv.com/SciFi/LaserDeathRay/DamageFromLaser.php
Quote:For a sufficiently low power flux the thin surface layer will be heated to the fluid state but will stay beyond the evaporation temperature, while the solid-fluid interface will slowly progress into the bulk material by heat conduction. In iron the typical progress rate is about 10-2 cm ms-1, and the power flux for this situation may be around 106 W cm-2. [...] At a somewhat higher power flux, between 106 to 108 Wcm2 [sic], the thin absorbing surface layer is heated up to its evaporation temperature before the solid-fluid interface has progressed appreciably into the material by heat conduction. Thus, with continuing laser power, a less than ++-thick layer of material will continually evaporate, with the material-air interface progressing into the material. Typically a gas jet develops [...]. The gas jet ejects also part of the molten material, thus that the progress rate of the hole is faster than with evaporation of all the material. [...]
At a still higher flux of 109 to 1010 Wcm-2, after initial evaporation of the surface layer, the gas jet is thermally ionized and absorbs most of the incident radiation, which is such blocked away from the material. The surface layer explodes with an ultrasonic jet, its temperature may rise beyond 10 105 -¦ K [sic], its pressure beyond 103 at.[ ... A thin layer of target material is flashed to plasma, and the plasma absorbs the rest of the pulse. At this point, the plasma is at extremely high pressure, much greater pressure than the strength of the target material. The expanding plasma launches a blast wave. A shell of hot vapor blasts out into the air, while a shell of super-hot, highly compressed material propagates into the target. Pressures are so high the target material flows like a fluid. ... Eventually, the blast wave has done so much work pushing through the target material and has spread out so much that the pressure is no longer far in excess of the material strength.
Or you can use this calculator here: http://www.5596.org/cgi-bin/laser.php Note after doing the calculation (fire lasers), one of the catagories is "impulse shock" with a yes/no value. Click on impulse shock, and the description states:
Quote:mpulse shock indicates that the armor is vaporized at a rate exceeding the speed of sound, tearing and damaging the surrounding hull. You can pretty much consider the compartment utterly destroyed.
This isn't even lore, its hard science/real physics.
Basically, if your laser blast is sufficiently powerful, the surface of the target explodes from the sudden heating creating an expanding gas (a literal explosion) |

Drake Doe
SVER True Blood Unclaimed.
210
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 12:16:00 -
[45] - Quote
Ashriban Kador wrote:They way I see crystals should work is
Radio - Standard: EM damage, gradually moving towards Therm. Radio = 100% EM/ 0% Therm Microwave = 80% EM/ 20% Therm Infared = 75% EM/ 25% Therm Standard = 60% EM/ 40% Therm
Ultraviolet - Multifrequency: Therm damage, gradually moving towards EM. Ultraviolet = 40% EM/60% Therm X Ray = 25% EM/ 75% Therm Gamma = 20% EM/ 80% Therm Multifrequency = 0% EM/ 100% Therm
Have the 'LR' crystals do mostly shield damage, the 'SR' crystals doing mostly armor damage.
Then Conflag and Gleam are heavy close range Thermal/Armor damage crystals and Scorch and Aurora are both long range EM/Shield damage crystals.
There. Damage type selection. The numbers can be messed with of course, as they are meerly suggestions.
Also: I wouldn't be opposed to removing one of the short range crystals and adjusting things so Standard is a straight 50/50 split. And if people think damage selection on lasers is 'too powerful' I don't mind having even T1 crystals break on occasion, provided that CCP find a way to make a full rack of grouped guns all crack their crystals at once. :/ Having to regroup guns in the middle of a fight on those rare occasions when you suddenly find your on your last 8 Scorch is a pain in the ass!
I see this as a decent way to map hybrid damage, with thermal being short range since blasters are supposed to be gallente based and kinetic for long range. Starting with antimatter doing the highest thermal and lead doing the highest kinetic. "The homogenization of EVE began when Gallente and Caldari started sharing a weapon system."-Vermaak Doe"Ohh squabbles ohh I love my dust trolls like watching an episode of Maury with less " Is he my Dad " but more of " My Neighbor took a dump on my lawn " good episode! *pops more corn*" -Evernub |

Lai HasCake
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.22 14:08:00 -
[46] - Quote
This topic is ridiculous CCP are never going to change the damage type of a weapon because it would mean rebalancing every damage resist on every ship. The amount of time and money they would have to waste implementing this idea is stupid and I'm sure I can speak for pretty much every player when I say I would rather development time and budget was spent on content that actually requires attention. |

Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
95
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 02:11:00 -
[47] - Quote
Lai HasCake wrote: This isn't what happens in a vacuum and you can't state what would happen when they are absorbed by shields either.
Lasers don't need adjustment. Sure they have strengths and weaknesses but so does every system. If you want to be able to deal different damage types you will have to put up with a 10 second reload time like missiles and projectiles.
And quit complaining you have Scorch.
A vacuum wouldn't change the situation, and you can't state what happens when a bullet hits shields either for that matter(or even what the shields actually are).
I was neither complaining or agreeing with the OP, I merely felt like jumping on the tangent wagon. |

Brent Anderson
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
0
|
Posted - 2013.05.23 04:01:00 -
[48] - Quote
I know by physics my Idea should work it is based on the simple fact that the laser is "melting" the core and pushing via photon small bits of the core along with it in the laser stream. The atoms travel in the stream and when the laser strikes it target the atoms strike as well causing more damage.
those that say that is a Rail gun I beg to differ as this is a steam of atoms inside the laser beam not a larger mass of metal being accelerated via magnetic of gravity means.
Many of you have already seen this idea if you ever watched star trek this is what a "Phaser" is a laser with a particle accelerator component in its design.
|

Ashriban Kador
Viziam Amarr Empire
14
|
Posted - 2013.05.24 09:27:00 -
[49] - Quote
Drake Doe wrote:I see this as a decent way to map hybrid damage, with thermal being short range since blasters are supposed to be gallente based and kinetic for long range. Starting with antimatter doing the highest thermal and lead doing the highest kinetic.
I don't see why it can't be the same for projectiles as well, long range being mostly kinetic short range being mostly explosive.
But that's just me being kind of OCD I think. Your goals may align with some ... and with others, collide with the force of suns. |

Johann Rascali
Crunchy Crunchy Peregrine Nation
20
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Posted - 2013.05.24 11:16:00 -
[50] - Quote
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned that EVE already has explosivecrystals. Could've sworn there were kinetic ones too, but I don't see them. |
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