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Amarr Dreadnaught vs POS

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Blueshell	Posted - 2005.10.19 19:54:00 - [1] I read the EON magazine. Nice plans about large ships and carriers etc... However, after reading the in game specs of the revelation i can't help but wonder what the point of this ship is. Besides being very good looking there should be a practical use for it right? So supose i want to shoot a pos. I ask my CEO for funding and buy a revelation. My corpmates come along in shuttles to watch the show (we are a poor corp). I start blasing away at the pos. Now if i read the spec sheet correctly i wonder if the following holds true: 1 revelation equals about 20 apocalypses (isk wise), if i neglegt range and use the same type of lens the apoc would use i have about 2-3 times the amount of damage per laser compared to a T2 tacheon. But since i have only three slots and roughly the same ROF i do about equal damage. So my corp mates would get very bored and start mining and building apocs. The pos would still be alive by the time they all have apocs and deside to come and help. Now the pos would be in trouble because damage out would increase with 20x8=160 tacheon II lasers. I think i would feel a little silly. So i have the following sugestions: I increase damage out by a factor 10 II invent a capital smartbom with a range of 50 km and damage out of about 2000 hp III allow a dread in empire or allow repacage and make it fit it in a transport VI increase sensor strenght to pos levels (1000)
Y'Berion	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:02:00 - [2] Um can a Apoc fit 8 tachs??? I realy don't have a clue on what you are talking about. specialy about the 50 km range smart bomb. That would suck man :P slap few of them on and they would take out most targets (bs to frigates) in one volly.
Douglas McCracken	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:03:00 - [3] Siege Mode my friend. Adds 500% damage, makes you hard as nails, but gimps your tracking, perfect for laying into a starbase though, as they dont move much
Blueshell	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:18:00 - [4] Hmm i didn't know about the siege mode, and our corp had two operational posses at one time. Shame on me. That gives me a little hope. I am training for the large guns now. I would be fun to buy one and look at my apoc in the hanger with the gun on it. as for the smartbom, its intended for drones and frigates. That's the point. If the range would be smaller chances are you get warp scrambled and end up phoning ccp for a transfer to a hanger nearby because the frig could hold you indefinitely. But hey a frig would not be capable to warp scramble such a large ship. That would make sense. Allow only bs's to warp scramble with a 'capital' scrambler. (Only scrambles at low speed of course)
Killiker	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:23:00 - [5] Edited by: Killiker on 19/10/2005 20:23:51 Afaik an apoc couldnt fit 8 tach II's and if you can what do you do about tanking the pos guns? if your shooting at a large pos your gonna pop pritty fast in that apoc and look pritty silly ;). Even a small pos will pop your apoc. But hmm lets see dreads cost over a 1bn and a pos costs 200k? maybe that should be changed to even it out a little more. like raising the price of a pos.
djenghis jan	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:28:00 - [6] I can fit 8 tacheon II lasers on my apoc. OK, you use two low slots for grid upgrades and need a little training in the engineering department but you are in business. Add two T2 heat sinks, some armor stuff and two tracking compu's in med and throw in a painter for good measure. works well on most lvl4 missions if you are not the tank. I take down cruisers in two volleys and can hit frigs at 40-60 km range. so all you need is a deck of cards :-)
Zungen	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:30:00 - [7] right now a dread pretty much sucks, a well setup small pos cant even be taken down by a group of dreads you have to either increased the tanking ability of a dread in siege mode or increased the number of guns it can use or increase dmg output when in siege mode 1000m sig guns aganist 150m sig isnt going to be very effective, even if an object is stationary
blikorar	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:36:00 - [8] A dread can tank a pos in seig mode the only problem is you use a several billion isk ship to kill a 200k pos and it takes and 4-5hours to do it of sitting there gett board. So yes it is not much worth killing the pos.
Killiker	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:37:00 - [9] That was me and yes a dread can tank a bloody small pos if you cant your doing somthing rong.
Reiisha	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:37:00 - [10] Originally by: Blueshell Hmm i didn't know about the siege mode, and our corp had two operational posses at one time. Shame on me. That gives me a little hope. I am training for the large guns now. I would be fun to buy one and look at my apoc in the hanger with the gun on it. as for the smartbom, its intended for drones and frigates. That's the point. If the range would be smaller chances are you get warp scrambled and end up phoning ccp for a transfer to a hanger nearby because the frig could hold you indefinitely. But hey a frig would not be capable to warp scramble such a large ship. That would make sense. Allow only bs's to warp scramble with a 'capital' scrambler. (Only scrambles at low speed of course) Warp scrambling doesn't prevent you from using the jump drive :) Just have 2 friends standing ready to initiate cynosural fields in systems nearby (jump from 1 to the next to get as much distance as possible). Save Darwinia!

djenghis jan	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:38:00 - [11] I agree with that. The problem with lasers is tracking. So if you can't use your dread to take down a pos then what else do you do with it? take on another dread? In that role the amarr ship would be at a disadvantage if you ask me. A few tracking disruptors and would would not hit anything. So in the end the drone or missile ship would be a better choice. A posibility would be to increase the output angle of the laser with a wide angle lense and take down ships that are in the field of the beam. decrease damage as a function of the output angle and forget about tracking Also add a feature that you could burn off stuff of ships, like masts and lights on caldari ships. Maybe a hole in the minmatar sail?
Killiker	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:42:00 - [12] I was only saying cost wise to kill the pos its not worth it but thats what there made for to kill them. I just say that you need to make a pos cost more so it is worth the 4-5 hours of sitting there waiting for it to pop.
Reiisha	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:42:00 - [13] Originally by: blikorar A dread can tank a pos in seig mode the only problem is you use a several billion isk ship to kill a 200k pos and it takes and 4-5hours to do it of sitting there gett board. So yes it is not much worth killing the pos. Even a small POS costs at least 25m for the small tower... LEt alone the rest of the equipment and the fuel needed to keep powering it. Reinforced mode adds to that..... POS's are not THAT cheap. Also, their main use is as some sort of a safespot (you cant target stuff inside a pos's shield), temporary (but HUGE) cargohold to store ore etc to transport later, and to claim systems, maybe to build an outpost (and i understand you get a few other benefits from claiming). Again, POS's aren't that cheap, or even that dispensable... Finding a good moon takes a while, if youre planning to use it for mining. Also, it takes quite a few hours to set one up properly (onlining). Even if it's set at a random moon for safespots, destroying it has value so the enemy can't rely on his pos as an absolute safespot anymore, as was the case before dreads were introduced. Also, don't mess with a 35 heavy drone moros..... That's the firepower of a battlecruiser/batleship (maybe more) or so all in itself. Save Darwinia!
Killiker	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:44:00 - [14] Edited by: Killiker on 19/10/2005 20:47:37 sry i ment 200mill not 200k im an idiot my mind got sidetracked :\|. But yeh remember that the dread also requiers fule and it means you also have to have people in a system for 10mins or what setting up the feild with no moduels running leaving them defensless for the dread to jump.
Blueshell	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:48:00 - [15] Yeah posses are not really cheap. But we could own two with a corp of about 5-6 active players. Mining ice was a ***** but we kept it running for a number of weeks. So its not an overly expensive venture isk wise. The cost is in the time investment. The posses did not pay in the end
Killiker	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:50:00 - [16] From what ino atm pos arnt making that much isk but as you say a 5-6man corp set 2 up and kept them running that shows somthing should be changed to make them have more value in killing them.
Joerd Toastius	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:51:00 - [17] Originally by: Killiker I was only saying cost wise to kill the pos its not worth it but thats what there made for to kill them. I just say that you need to make a pos cost more so it is worth the 4-5 hours of sitting there waiting for it to pop. One POS, no. But wait! You can use a dread more than once...
JoCool	Posted - 2005.10.19 20:59:00 - [18] What about the Caldari Dreadnought, can the Phoenix tank that long? Any practical experiences? _______________________________________________________________________ Trey Azagthoth > Youre my idol Jocool. I wanna be like Jocool jr. or Jocool the sequel! Oveur > ohnoes jocool
Tovarishch	Posted - 2005.10.19 21:02:00 - [19] Edited by: Tovarishch on 19/10/2005 21:05:43 The cost of a POS is utterly trivial. Those saying that 75m or even 200m is substantial seem to be voluntarily forgetting how much money that POS is going to be raking in once it is online at a decent moon. Any mediocre POS can pay for itself very, very quickly. The costs involved in fielding a Dread is enormous... not to mention the huge sacrifice in training skills that are entirely useless outside of the Dread itself. There is currently an enormous inequality between the costs involved in operating a POS, the profits/benefits involved, and the costs and sacrifice in operating a Dread capable of taking them down.
KingsGambit	Posted - 2005.10.19 22:03:00 - [20] What difference should it make if the PoS costs 1 isk or 100 million? The isk cost of a dreadnaught has nothing to do with the cost of buying, setting up or running a PoS. The point of using a dreadnaught is not to cost your opponents 200m isk, but to take away their PoS. Whether it be a money earner, a refiner, a safe spot, a claim to a system....that is what you are hitting them for. The value is of taking away an enemies refitting/reloading/rearming point, their income generator or their claim over a system whose sovreignty you are contesting. If you don't want to spent 2b on destroying one, get as many Apocs as you want and enough pilots to fly them, and it will eventually get the job done...but losses might be higher, and it'll take a lot more people to do it. ------------- My T2 Shop

Tovarishch	Posted - 2005.10.19 22:30:00 - [21] Originally by: KingsGambit What difference should it make if the PoS costs 1 isk or 100 million? The isk cost of a dreadnaught has nothing to do with the cost of buying, setting up or running a PoS. The point of using a dreadnaught is not to cost your opponents 200m isk, but to take away their PoS. Whether it be a money earner, a refiner, a safe spot, a claim to a system....that is what you are hitting them for. The value is of taking away an enemies refitting/reloading/rearming point, their income generator or their claim over a system whose sovreignty you are contesting. If you don't want to spent 2b on destroying one, get as many Apocs as you want and enough pilots to fly them, and it will eventually get the job done...but losses might be higher, and it'll take a lot more people to do it. This post could only be made by someone who has never gone up against multiple large POS turrets. A wrecking shot from a single large POS turret can one-shot a plated battleship. Your analogy is akin to saying that it would be fine if a single cruiser costing >10m isk could one shot a battleship that costs over 100m. The cost of a POS and the cost of ships designed to take them down have everything to do with each other.
Vishnej	Posted - 2005.10.19 22:31:00 - [22] Edited by: Vishnej on 19/10/2005 22:33:33 Edited by: Vishnej on 19/10/2005 22:31:50 The main asset of a dread seems to be its tankability - nothing else can really withstand a wrecking shot from a large artillery battery(burst), and continuously tank multiple large guns(DoT). In a current worse case scenario, where you have to set your dread up for tanking a large tower with the wrong resists and many large guns(varying damagetypes), you simply cannot do enough damage to kill it easily. After many hours of running numbers on one particular scenario I had to work out an optimal approach to, I concluded that the tower regens somewhere between 540 and 225 DPS depending on how much shield is left, has 45mil shield, and the Revelation I pitted against it with T2 mods (with the number of slots I would need to tank the towers' full damage output) would be doing 840 DPS - meaning with continuous fire we could take down the tower in somewhere between 21 and 47 hours IIRC. Also, an industrial suicided into the line of fire every hour or so is needed to resupply siege mode. They need lots of slots for tanking(esp cap regen), and the capital turrets simply don't do enough damage. IMO, if they want to make a dread a reasonably powerful siege weapon, dreads deserve a 50% boost to total cap and a -25% boost to capital weapons' rate of fire. ----------------- T2 Destroyers: a proposal
Grut	Posted - 2005.10.19 22:43:00 - [23] Moros - lots of neuts and vola 3 bil SupaVampaDomi apart from that they make for cool screenies i think its common knowledge dreads have arrived prenerf, wait till they get denerf (some time soon(tm) ) and they should be ok at doing.... something Mostly harmless
Vishnej	Posted - 2005.10.19 22:48:00 - [24] Edited by: Vishnej on 19/10/2005 22:48:01 Originally by: Grut i think its common knowledge dreads have arrived prenerf, wait till they get denerf (some time soon(tm) ) and they should be ok at doing.... something This thread is the type of feedback they ask for on how much something needs to be denerfed. ----------------- T2 Destroyers: a proposal
Amrotis	Posted - 2005.10.19 22:50:00 - [25] As mentioned, the problem with all dreads atm is their dot output. Its not much more (if more at all) than a gank BS when not in siege mode. Even then, its no where near worth the isk for the dot. I would have preferred to see dreads output 15/20 times the amount of damage than a gankageddon, but be entirely unable to hit BS from any range.
djenghis jan	Posted - 2005.10.19 23:06:00 - [26] I gues i share that point of view. Looks like they are waiting for the carriers to arrive. In the end the pos will remain the focal point of battle for invaders. Otherwise the stargates are still prio and the warp bubble gate camp will never go away. That is the whole point of making jump drives. So i gues the carrier will be offensive taking in lots of frigs, the dread will escort a carrier and shoot other dreads and the pos will still soak up enough hits to draw out the battle long enough for commanders to commit reinforcements. I think this could get interesting after all.
Falzone	Posted - 2005.10.20 09:59:00 - [27] Reiisha: your wrong, a dread cannot jump while warp scrambled, believe me I have tried it with my revelation along with many other tests.
Diana Merris	Posted - 2005.10.21 01:27:00 - [28] Since there's several Dread pilots posting in this thread maybe one can answer a question. Does the normal "Repair Systems" skill reduce the cycle time on capital repairers or does only the Capital repair skill effect them? If both skills apply doesn't that mean that the Armor repairer will put back more HP/sec than the shield booster?
DesertKing	Posted - 2005.10.21 07:55:00 - [29] Originally by: Amrotis As mentioned, the problem with all dreads atm is their dot output. Its not much more (if more at all) than a gank BS when not in siege mode. Even then, its no where near worth the isk for the dot. I would have preferred to see dreads output 15/20 times the amount of damage than a gankageddon, but be entirely unable to hit BS from any range. I found siege module in item database. It says Quote: damage multiplier bonus 50000 % is this true? Because according to my calculations it will make each 1000mm rail of moros to do about 500k of dmg per shot, and it mean 10 min per large tower Can any1 share experience of using siege module?
elFarto	Posted - 2005.10.21 08:42:00 - [30] Originally by: DesertKing Quote: damage multiplier bonus 50000 % is this true? No, the values in the database are stored in a 'special' format. The above value is actually 500%. Regards elFarto



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