| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Stavros
   |
Posted - 2003.08.04 02:44:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Stavros on 04/08/2003 02:53:24
I am hearing a large amount of speculation and comment about the upcoming changes in this next patch.
So WHAT is the big deal about this next patch?
Well basically for those who dont know there will now be a delay on jumping and docking at stations for the initiator of any agressive actions.
Some people have said that this will result in far more pirates getting caught and/or killed. I think however that this is a rather large error on their part.
As an example let us assume that there are 4 pirates camping a gate and in warp 20 battleships intent on killing them. Will the 4 pirates stay and open fire? I doubt it they will just jump and laugh about it on the other side. This will be made even better if the attacking 20 ships actually take agressive action against the 4 pirates before they jump, as the much larger force won't now be able to pursue. So this is a win for pirates.
Now assume that those same pirates are back at a gate, except this time they have just killed a ship when the 20 ship anti-pirate fleet warps in. Unable to jump what will they do, will they be caught and killed? This is highly unlikely as the attacking fleet has a 10 second delay before they can even start to lock the pirates. This gives the pirates ample time to warp AWAY from the gate to safety. Oh dear the anti-pirates just spent all that time for nothing. Another win for pirates.
Both the above scenarios also apply to station combat although this is less common with pirates.
Now let us look at two equally sized fleets, a and b. Fleet a is outside a station, when suddenly in warps fleet b 30km away from the station, intent on the destruction of the fleet a. But who fires first? If fleet a fires they loose their advantage and can't dock, if fleet b fires they loose nothing as they are too far out to dock anyway. However they will probably want to move in closer to the station in order that they can dock if the fight goes badly. Net result? A Boring stalemate with both sides afraid to fire and loose their docking priveleges.
Is this really what is good for eve? Less pvp and more boring stalement, slaggin fests where two parties duel each other using only the weapons of 'foul language' and insulting each others mothers?
The basic point of what I am saying is, this patch will do nothing to help anti-pirates infact with the removal of microwarping straight out of warp it is likely to hurt honest people more as they can no longer speed past camped gates.
What it IS going to do is make pvp even more boring and tedious.
In difference to my normal ending statements, if you have a logical arguement against any of the things I have said, pls feel free to disagree.
Stav
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Derek
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 02:57:00 -
[2]
I think if anyone fires a shot then all stations and gates should be shut down to all ships in the system for a peroid of time.
This would make it much more interesting.
The only Problem with this is that Traders could NEVER run a blockade if he was shot at. I imagine this is what the devs were trying to avoid.
_______________________________________________2005.05.02 03:56:57combatYour Mega Pulse Laser II perfectly strikes Sansha's Battletower, wrecking for 1190.5 damage._ |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 02:58:00 -
[3]
Which is exactly why the time penalty on gate usage for killing someone should be at least 10 minutes.
Besides, why would you warp in with 20 battleships all at once? If you were smart you'd warp in an indy or something, then the fleet once the pirates have opened fire.
|
Stavros
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:01:00 -
[4]
Ok xelios at least read my post pls.
I said that about the indy being warped in first. EVEN if the pirates are unable to jump dock for an hour. They will ALWAYS get AT LEAST 10 seconds of free warp time when the enemy fleet warps to the gate/station they are camping. So its just a simple matter of moving to a moon and waiting for the timer to run out, then just leave the system. Easy...
Stav
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Tyrion Nydaerin
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:11:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Tyrion Nydaerin on 04/08/2003 03:12:08
As much as it pains me to admit it, Stavr0s makes a lot of sense here.
My only point would be that if one is actually going to engage a pirate fleet with a mind to destroying it, warping to where they are camping does not work, howevever if you are simply trying to break up a blockade then warping your fleet there might have the intended effect.
In this case, making it so that the pirate's cant jump or dock doesnt make much difference, the can always just go to some moon and either wait it our or log in space and come back later. The only real way to use the new system to your advantage would be to have a fleet at every single location in the system, and even then if they have a bookmark in the middle of space you've lost them.
---
-=Fountain Alliance High Council Member=- |
Femme Fatal
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:14:00 -
[6]
Basically.. true. It will end up with two sides looking at each other trying to get the other side to start firing.
In the first few weeks this will result in ppl warping in, targetting each other and activating all their ECM (until the Devs emergency fix this to make ECM a hostile act) or any other non offensive module, till one side has the clear advantage, at which the other side if smart will run/dock either before the fight starts or after returning a few shots.
|
j0sephine
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:19:00 -
[7]
Edited by: j0sephine on 04/08/2003 03:20:08
"(until the Devs emergency fix this to make ECM a hostile act)"
They already did. :s
... as far as i can tell the content of this thread has been beaten to death already in the Patch Review section, with no visible result...
|
Muaddid
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:19:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Muaddid on 04/08/2003 03:19:47
ok who's impersonating stavros ? hes making sense, cant be him... theres no "<Stavr0s> omg omg omg" in his post either... something's wrong here... did hell freeze over ?
ahhhhh no it makes sense... the person who posted is "Stavros" and not "Stavr0s"
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:19:00 -
[9]
Sorry Stav, was in a hurry to read that. You're right about the warping out advantage, but really the victims of gate camps have that same advantage. Not allowing gate pirates to jump will level the playing field. I don't think the intent of this was to doom gate campers to certain death the minute a fleet shows up, but to give attackers a level playing field, one in which warp scrambling a target will prevent him from escaping. period. Unless he's carrying a stabilizer ;)
|
Stavros
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:33:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Stavros on 04/08/2003 03:34:02
I would really like for this to get some attention though. The fundemental problem with combat in eve is it is too hard to get into and too easy to get out of.
This will not fix the problem and will imho just exascerbate it :-(
In reply to your second post xelios the patch miserably fails to achieve that goal as well, as there is a 10 second period when the attackers can do nothing but sit there and watch the pirates simply warp away.
PS: I only use Stavr0s with a zero on irc as some GIMP already had stavros with a o.
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
Endureth
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:41:00 -
[11]
Here's another scenario.
Stavros is sitting at a gate. Stavros is a well know griefer. That or he role-plays a heartless, cold-blooded killer really well. In warps a frigate. Pretty crappy little frigate, must be a newb. Stavros locks on and fires on the little guy. Then suddenly a fleet warps in. Uh-oh, Stavros is in trouble. He better warp to a moon quickly so he doesn't get caught.
Some smack talk goes back and forth until Stavros decides his time has expired and warps to the other gate to find a new spot for the night. He warps to the gate in the system. Uh-oh, the forces of good are camped there waiting for him. He once again tries the first gate. No way! Stavros is trapped.
Looks like Stavros has a new skill to learn, gate-crashing. Well, since he doesn't have that skill trained it looks like Stavros is going to be the mouse in a cat and mouse chase throughout the system while he tries to evade the forces of good hunting parties.
Sounds like fun :)
-E
|
Muaddid
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:45:00 -
[12]
or he just warp to one of the middle-of-nowhere-bookmark he has, stop his ship and go to sleep to login a few hours later when everyone is gone out of boredom... 
On vacations (need a new sig too) |
Stavros
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:46:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Stavros on 04/08/2003 03:47:17
Cheers muadid for yet again convincing me that not everyone that plays this game is a moron.
Heheh...
Stav
--
"Keep On Flaming Lamers, Like Your Ships Did When We Ended You" |
la'Rei
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:48:00 -
[14]
Edited by: la'Rei on 04/08/2003 03:51:20
Muaddid - it's the one and only Stavr0s. Same one. no diffrent.
Stavros - let me show you how you get people to say it's bad.
I like this! This is such a great idea! It makes gate camping so much easier, and it will make killing people at the gates so much eaiser too! I LOVE this patch!!! COME PEOPLE! Come to my GATE! you cant use MWD now!!! COME DIE!!! did I mention... DIE! becasue of this patch!!! BUAHAHHA.
Serisouly tho. this patch does nothing agianst us pirates. it only helps us. jeez poping frigates in 1 volley aint as fun as you would think. 
-Rei
_________________________
Trolling is bad. Please dont do it.
-rei |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 03:53:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Xelios on 04/08/2003 03:55:33
Yeah Stav, good point, but how do we stop people from warping out right away without making it impossible for someone warping into, say, a gatecamp to escape? If the 10 second inveunerability period was taken out it would be almost impossible to avoid a gate camp, and it will be impossible now that you can't activate a MWD in warp anymore.
Tracking systems should go a long way in helping pvp combat, that way if your target warps out you can at least follow him.
Basically any changes made to make pvp easier to get into will also make gate camping more foolproof, not that I have anything against gate camping but it should be hard to do considering the impact it has on normal travellers.
-edit- You could still easily avoid a gate camp by simply not warping to the gate, but there should be an option to at least try and run the blockade, even if it's at a great risk. Without a 10 sec inveunerability time, and without the ability to activate MWD in warp, the chances of getting through a gate camp would slim to none.
|
Tyrion Nydaerin
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 04:02:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Tyrion Nydaerin on 04/08/2003 04:03:30
 Quote:
You could still easily avoid a gate camp by simply not warping to the gate
So you're saying we should just... not... travel?
---
-=Fountain Alliance High Council Member=- |
la'Rei
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 04:04:00 -
[17]
Edited by: la'Rei on 04/08/2003 04:06:41
Xelios here is an example of the chances of a cruiser to run a gate with 4 b-ships built for gate camping.
You have 3 Huge heavy tanks with huge .50 cal machine guns on each tank pointing at you at a gate into town. You also have a "super tar" truck laying down tar you cant walk over because it's too sticky.
You are a marine! You get your little machine gun. and you want to get to that gate... alive and well.
enough said. it wont happen, unless the 3 tanks and tar truck mess up.
Basically 4 b-ships at a gate camping, should be uhh...
Breakable... yes.
Runnable... no.
Think about it.
it should also be the same for a pirate who warps into a web of bounty hunters like that. But pirates are smart, and cautious of that and normally dont fall for it :)
-Rei
_________________________
Trolling is bad. Please dont do it.
-rei |
orrin
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 04:07:00 -
[18]
I think stavros is partly right. If a defending fleet decides to run immidiately, it always can. The following is the situation where this upcoming patch is going to cause ppl to die (which may be a good thing).
2 relatively even fleets engage in combat(therefore both sides decide to engage). If the defenders fire first and it turns out they are going to lose now comes the trouble. They can't jump out and since they decided to fight some of them may be in warp jamming range and be jammed. Now what? In the past all ships could escape, now it seems some members of the defending fleet will die.
This is a good thing I think. May cause the pirates to lose an occasional ship more frequently. If that ship is a Battleship it could get expensive replacing constant losses.
Orrin
|
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 04:14:00 -
[19]
la'Rei, you are forgetting about MWD. It doesn't matter how big your guns are if you can't track something and don't have time to lock onto it before it is able to get away. Try hitting a supersonic jet with a battleship cannon and you'll get the idea.
Tyrion, not at all, but warping into a gate camp by yourself if you know you can't make it with a MWD is just dumb. Sometimes it's best to accept it and wait it out, or find a route around it, or pay a toll.
|
la'Rei
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 04:16:00 -
[20]
Quote:
la'Rei, you are forgetting about MWD. It doesn't matter how big your guns are if you can't track something and don't have time to lock onto it before it is able to get away. Try hitting a supersonic jet with a battleship cannon and you'll get the idea.
Tyrion, not at all, but warping into a gate camp by yourself if you know you can't make it with a MWD is just dumb. Sometimes it's best to accept it and wait it out, or find a route around it, or pay a toll.
yes/no
you are right, but your also wrong.
Their changeing MWD
You have to come to a "full and complete" stop before you can fire it up.
it will take about 5-10 secodns to stop.
by then the scorpion sitting at the spawn site, has you insta locked and you have 6 webs on you and dont forget 2 warp jammers.
You are now going 81m/s with your MWD on at max speed.
-Rei
_________________________
Trolling is bad. Please dont do it.
-rei |
Cymoril
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 04:21:00 -
[21]
The changes to gateing/docking certainly don't make the game any worse, and that it the most important part about the change. If you don't think they will make it any better, fine. But, it's not going to make it worse.
Who knows what changes will come AFTER this one, but at least this one will already be in place when the next one DOES come. |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 04:28:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Xelios on 04/08/2003 04:29:04
Yeah, and that will be the root of the problem. Sure a battleship fleet at a gate can be chased off, but by making the MWD useless for running blockades there is very simply no way for a person to avoid a gate camp. The victim has 0 chance of making it through, forcing him to either pay or log until the campers leave. It shouldn't be like this at all.
I don't think gate camps should be 100% effective, it makes travel impossible to entire regions (camps like HED-GP or PF-346 that block off a vital route). As for paying a toll, I don't bother, it's way too easy for a pirate to take a toll then blow you up anyway.
-edit again- as a side note, I just had a run in with tekforce, his laser beam was almost as big as my Rupture, but before you get too worried... I'm ok.
|
la'Rei
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 04:30:00 -
[23]
Xelios - What were you doing so close to Tek's lasers? *grins*
_________________________
Trolling is bad. Please dont do it.
-rei |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 04:32:00 -
[24]
Actually I jumped into PF-346 about the same time he did, and saw him grill some guy at the jump in point as I autopiloted to the stargate, so I waited for him there and when he showed up he stripped my sheilds to half in one volley from about 35km away, then I jumped =P
|
la'Rei
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 04:35:00 -
[25]
I'm gonna get a ship like that soon too :)
Makes me a proud amarr, that our ships stomp all over them slave minitar junk piles, they call ships.
-Rei
_________________________
Trolling is bad. Please dont do it.
-rei |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 05:03:00 -
[26]
Yeah I'm getting myself an Apoc in 5 days once my skill is done, simply cause I'm sick of flying trash bins through the galaxy =P
|
la'Rei
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 05:32:00 -
[27]
a... slave... flying the most... prestigous... of all... ships... NEVER! YOU MUST DIE!
-Rei
_________________________
Trolling is bad. Please dont do it.
-rei |
Xelios
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 05:38:00 -
[28]
The rebellion has begun!
|
Jojin
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 05:54:00 -
[29]
I vote the gates should be shut down and docking prohibited if you are the initiator or the recipient of aggressive actions.
This makes more sense from a realism standpoint. The goal is to protect the stations and gates from damage and the best way to do this is to keep them neutral. I mean just because two (2) individuals arrived at a gate and one shoots first at another, it doesnĘt mean the one who shot first is the ębad guyĘ. Heck he could be a bounty hunter who is in a chase trying to catch the guy who just blew up 20 passenger transports.
I do realize this will mean blockade running will become a thing of the past, because blockades will have to be removed prior to getting through. This sounds to me like a great way to spice things up, where pirate hunters and those whishing to take on a good guy role will have a job.
For those who do commit a crime and are being chased by the local navy or Concorde will not have the option to just run to the nearest station and dock or jump gate and jump. Those who wish to setup a blockade will also then have to realize they might not be able to flee should a group decide to come in a bust the blockade.
|
Lieserl
|
Posted - 2003.08.04 06:15:00 -
[30]
Thank you Stavros, I attempted to get these points across in another thread and now even a pirate says the same thing 
|
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |