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Minnie Dread players stuck with Citadel Torp Skills

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Kayemeh Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 2	Posted - 2013.05.23 22:08:00 - [1] - Quote I am annoyed that I have 574k sp trained in Citadel Torpedos that I can no longer use. These will not be refunded. That is all.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 228	Posted - 2013.05.24 07:09:00 - [2] - Quote they will be useful on chimeras when they are rebalanced soon(tm)
iskflakes 461	Posted - 2013.05.24 07:48:00 - [3] - Quote Deal with it. Above poster means phoenix, not chimera. -
OfBalance Caldari State 505	Posted - 2013.05.24 08:17:00 - [4] - Quote Here to confirm that the Phoenix is awful.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 228	Posted - 2013.05.24 08:22:00 - [5] - Quote iskflakes wrote: Deal with it. Above poster means phoenix, not chimera. that I do
Max Wager Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 9	Posted - 2013.05.24 15:09:00 - [6] - Quote Don't pretend like they weren't wasted before.
Kayemeh Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 2	Posted - 2013.05.24 22:13:00 - [7] - Quote Max Wager wrote: Don't pretend like they weren't wasted before. Haha, Indeed. But it was me wasting those skill points, not CCP. Makes a huge difference. I can't think of any similar situation for a precedent. I've had plenty of skills and mods changed to where I no longer use them, but never before have I had them taken away from me. With the upcoming ship changes the Devs have said that if you can fly it before then you can fly it after the patch. Why can I no longer put Cit Torps on the Naglfar? I still have the skills.
Kayemeh Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 2	Posted - 2013.06.14 10:34:00 - [8] - Quote I would like the devs to consider refunding the SP invested in Citadel Torps by myself and other players who have trained the Naglfar. Minmatar dread pilots had to invest extra skill points to fly their ships due to the split weapon system. It was always a bit of a disadvantage to us. Now, with the recent changes to this ship, I no longer can fit Cit Torps on anything I fly and these SP are completely wasted. It was suggested by customer service that I keep this thread active.
RavenPaine raven alliance 415	Posted - 2013.06.14 14:38:00 - [9] - Quote Kayemeh wrote: I would like the devs to consider refunding the SP invested in Citadel Torps by myself and other players who have trained the Naglfar. It was suggested by customer service that I keep this thread active. Was probably their way of saying "Let me put you on hold".
Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 10125	Posted - 2013.06.14 15:23:00 - [10] - Quote Kayemeh wrote: I am annoyed that I have 574k sp trained in Citadel Torpedos that I can no longer use. These will not be refunded. That is all. You'll have a headstart when it's the Pheonix's turn to be the best dread. 1 Kings 12:11

Malcanis Vanishing Point. The Initiative. 10125	Posted - 2013.06.14 15:24:00 - [11] - Quote Kayemeh wrote: I would like the devs to consider refunding the SP invested in Citadel Torps by myself and other players who have trained the Naglfar. Skillpoints are only refunded when the skill no longer has any function in the game. Citadel Torps still exist and in fact capital missiles recently got a nice little buff. You're not getting a refund. 1 Kings 12:11
Angelique Duchemin Serenity Prime Kraken. 583	Posted - 2013.06.14 17:25:00 - [12] - Quote iskflakes wrote: Deal with it. Above poster means phoenix, not chimera. Aw darn. I read that and I was like "holy crap, Citadel torpedo Carrier? Skill U turn!! SKILL U TURN!!! Besides. If CCP had to refund skillpoints to players because the points are related to things that suck then they would have to refund the entire minmatar capital skill tree. We miss you Saede. In-depth guide on how to safely mine in High Sec
Gizznitt Malikite Agony Unleashed Agony Empire 2208	Posted - 2013.06.14 17:30:00 - [13] - Quote Kayemeh wrote: I am annoyed that I have 574k sp trained in Citadel Torpedos that I can no longer use. These will not be refunded. That is all. And if you can already Fly a Naglfar with decent skills, it will take you: 10 hours to Caldari Frig 3 + 10 hours to Caldari Dessie 3 + 25 hours to Caldari Cruiser 3 + 30 hours to Caldari BC 3 + 40 hours to Caldari BS 3: Which is 4d 19h until you can train Caldari Dread (and I bet you have a bunch of these skills already). It will take you 14d to get Dread IV, and you'll be a average Pheonix Pilot as well as a decent Naglfar Pilot. You don't "deserve" a refund, and 574k SP is only 9 days of training. How many SP did your character get with the Dessie and BC change: 2m, 4m, 6m?
Kayemeh Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 3	Posted - 2013.06.14 22:50:00 - [14] - Quote Gizznitt Malikite wrote: Kayemeh wrote: I am annoyed that I have 574k sp trained in Citadel Torpedos that I can no longer use. These will not be refunded. That is all. And if you can already Fly a Naglfar with decent skills, it will take you: 10 hours to Caldari Frig 3 + 10 hours to Caldari Dessie 3 + 25 hours to Caldari Cruiser 3 + 30 hours to Caldari BC 3 + 40 hours to Caldari BS 3: Which is 4d 19h until you can train Caldari Dread (and I bet you have a bunch of these skills already). It will take you 14d to get Dread IV, and you'll be a average Pheonix Pilot as well as a decent Naglfar Pilot. You don't "deserve" a refund, and 574k SP is only 9 days of training. How many SP did your character get with the Dessie and BC change: 2m, 4m, 6m? I have minmatar dreadnoughts trained to 5. It would take 52 days to get Phoenix to that level, so forget about it. But why would I ever train it even to level 4 (11 days)? They are roughly the same ship - shield tanked, capless weapon systems and mediocre. It is a certainty that due to the latest dread changes I will never use Cit Torps again and cannot fit them on any ship I fly. My dread of choice required me to train them, but this has changed. I don't think it's unreasonable to politely ask for a dev to review if a refund is appropriate. I'm not going to get emotional about it. Interesting that no Naglfar pilots have posted as far as I can tell. Doubt many folks fly this ship at all.
Kayemeh Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 3	Posted - 2013.06.14 23:48:00 - [15] - Quote Malcanis wrote: Kayemeh wrote: I would like the devs to consider refunding the SP invested in Citadel Torps by myself and other players who have trained the Naglfar. Skillpoints are only refunded when the skill no longer has any function in the game. Citadel Torps still exist and in fact capital missiles recently got a nice little buff. You're not getting a refund. You are almost certainly 100% correct on all points. Great about the Capital missile buff - too bad I'll only ever have them used against me though Has there ever been a comparable situation where a top tier weapon was deleted from a top tier ship? I don't see any harm in reviewing it, it's probably a unique situation.
Angelique Duchemin Serenity Prime Kraken. 589	Posted - 2013.06.15 08:13:00 - [16] - Quote Since the starting of this thread you have trained about 1,2 million SP. Is the status quo restored yet? We miss you Saede. In-depth guide on how to safely mine in High Sec
Kayemeh Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 3	Posted - 2013.06.15 16:52:00 - [17] - Quote Angelique Duchemin wrote: Since the starting of this thread you have trained about 1,2 million SP. Is the status quo restored yet? It's not the amount of skill points that matters in Eve, it's how players allocate them. My argument is that I have SP that I can no longer use due to game design changes. How is that not clear to you?
Chris Winter Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T. 136	Posted - 2013.06.15 22:54:00 - [18] - Quote You can still use it, you just choose not to.
Kayemeh Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 3	Posted - 2013.06.16 02:13:00 - [19] - Quote Chris Winter wrote: You can still use it, you just choose not to. Correct, I choose not to train Caldari Dreads and buy a Phoenix in order to exercise my ability to fire Citadel Torps. No thanks. CCP did a pretty nice job with the changes to Minnie split weapon systems this year, but unfortunately the Naglfar had to lose it's missile hardpoints. If all CCP were able to do for this ship was to re-balance the skill point requirements so that it is the same as the other dreads, then I want those extra skill points that I had to waste back.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 1932	Posted - 2013.06.16 02:23:00 - [20] - Quote Sell it and buy another character. It has only been 3 months. "... I have it on good authority that if you type "Google" into Google, you can break the Internet.-á So please, no one try it, even for a joke!-á It's not a laughing matter!-á You can break the Internet!" - Jen Barber

Chris Winter Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T. 137	Posted - 2013.06.16 03:14:00 - [21] - Quote Kayemeh wrote: Chris Winter wrote: You can still use it, you just choose not to. Correct, I choose not to train Caldari Dreads and buy a Phoenix in order to exercise my ability to fire Citadel Torps. No thanks. CCP did a pretty nice job with the changes to Minnie split weapon systems this year, but unfortunately the Naglfar had to lose it's missile hardpoints. If all CCP were able to do for this ship was to re-balance the skill point requirements so that it is the same as the other dreads, then I want those extra skill points that I had to waste back. CCP only refunds skillpoints when the skill is no longer usable in the game, like the learning skills. Citadel missiles are still in the game. Just because you choose not to fly any ships that can use them doesn't mean you should get the skill points back.
Kayemeh Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 3	Posted - 2013.06.16 03:16:00 - [22] - Quote Tau Cabalander wrote: Sell it and buy another character. It has only been 3 months. True, but irrelevant. You might also want to add that I'm not really an active player currently. I'm keeping this account active and skilling in the hope that I will one day get regular time to play. I love this guy and Minmatar ships. I have not suffered one little bit due to the Naglfar changes. I have previously flown Revelation and Moros on other characters. and think dreads are boring, but useful tools. I liked the Naglar as it had a bit of personality before the change, but that's not part of my complaint/request. However, I feel that the application of the changes to the Naglfar is incomplete without the refund of the skill points minmatar players used to train citadel torps. As I said before, I would love to know if there is any similar game change that could be used as a precedent. If there's nothing similar, I hope that a Dev might take note of this thread and consider the issue.
Kayemeh Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 3	Posted - 2013.06.16 03:48:00 - [23] - Quote Chris Winter wrote: CCP only refunds skillpoints when the skill is no longer usable in the game, like the learning skills. It is true, I have agreed with this - those are the only times CCP has previously refunded skill points. I expect my request will probably be denied or ignored. I stated as much in the OP. However, I am not sure if CCP is actually that dogmatic about it: I can't see any precedent that covers a design change that removes a module from the very top tier of a race's ships. Devs have often encouraged specialization and I am sure they did not intend to cost a player time in skill points or force anyone to train another race's capital ships. I believe it is unprecedented and am awaiting correction on this point. CCP have recently granted 100,000 skillpoints to all players for recent server issues that might have impacted training if any customers were unable to log on for skill changes. We used to get dinged for this all the time, especially before the 24 hour skill queue. Compensating players for this is very new and may indicate a change of philosophy regarding customer expectations. Devs have posted that we would be able to fly anything after the latest rebalances that we could previously even if we did not have the latest skill requirements. It's a bit of a stretch, but I don't think they intended to strand anyone with extra skills due to these design changes.
Angelique Duchemin Serenity Prime Kraken. 589	Posted - 2013.06.16 07:25:00 - [24] - Quote Kayemeh wrote: Angelique Duchemin wrote: Since the starting of this thread you have trained about 1,2 million SP. Is the status quo restored yet? It's not the amount of skill points that matters in Eve, it's how players allocate them. My argument is that I have SP that I can no longer use due to game design changes. How is that not clear to you? You would be hard pressed to find a player that was happy with where all their SP are. I'm 3 months old and I have about a million SP that I wish I'd put somewhere else. We miss you Saede. In-depth guide on how to safely mine in High Sec
Joan Greywind I Moan ALOT We Moan ALOT 10	Posted - 2013.06.16 07:51:00 - [25] - Quote The problem is, if they refund your sp they will have to refund it in many other cases, which will make it unrealistic. If the basis of the argument is if due to design changes I stopped using a particular module or ship and hence I should be reimbursed applies to a lot of changes. For example you can argue that the specific shield resistances that used to add a passive resistances to the active shield hardners when you are capped out, stopped doing so. So the skillpoints you used are now useless (who the ** uses passive hardeners, except care bear tengus in wh's). Another example could be the changes to the Armageddon hull. Maybe you trained lasorz to fly the Armageddon, but now it is not required, should you reimbursed. Granted you can use lazors for other ships but so can you with citadel torps. As you can see they are many more examples where the grounds for this argument doesn't make it feasible. Should they also reimburse you for the battleship 5 skill also, if you only skilled it up to use caps? As you see the rabbit hole goes very deep if you cross that line. I think you should ask yourself the question, did the changes improve the ship you fly notwithstanding the skill cost or not? the question here is obviously yes. Before the changes you were willing to put 542k extra skill points in a worse ship. Now you have a better ship for less skill cost and you should have an increase in overall utility. The people moaning should be the people that were affected by the shield resistance skill changes for example (i have all to 5 ** me please), as it made the skills completely obsolete (2m down the drain) with absolutely no added benefit, unlike the naglfar changes.
Kayemeh Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 3	Posted - 2013.06.16 08:12:00 - [26] - Quote Angelique Duchemin wrote: Kayemeh wrote: Angelique Duchemin wrote: Since the starting of this thread you have trained about 1,2 million SP. Is the status quo restored yet? It's not the amount of skill points that matters in Eve, it's how players allocate them. My argument is that I have SP that I can no longer use due to game design changes. How is that not clear to you? You would be hard pressed to find a player that was happy with where all their SP are. I'm 3 months old and I have about a million SP that I wish I'd put somewhere else. Yeah, we all do that. There are a few skills for ships I'll never fly in Kayemeh that I wish weren't plugged in. Can't blame CCP for those, but it isn't the same thing as losing access to 600k sp in a design change.
Lucine Delacourt The Covenant of Blood 5	Posted - 2013.06.16 08:15:00 - [27] - Quote Kayemeh wrote: Angelique Duchemin wrote: Kayemeh wrote: Angelique Duchemin wrote: Since the starting of this thread you have trained about 1,2 million SP. Is the status quo restored yet? It's not the amount of skill points that matters in Eve, it's how players allocate them. My argument is that I have SP that I can no longer use due to game design changes. How is that not clear to you? You would be hard pressed to find a player that was happy with where all their SP are. I'm 3 months old and I have about a million SP that I wish I'd put somewhere else. Yeah, we all do that. There are a few skills for ships I'll never fly in Kayemeh that I wish weren't plugged in. Can't blame CCP for those, but it isn't the same thing as losing access to 600k sp in a design change. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean you lost access to it.
Kayemeh Shockwave Innovations Surely You're Joking 3	Posted - 2013.06.16 08:27:00 - [28] - Quote Lucine Delacourt wrote: Kayemeh wrote: Angelique Duchemin wrote: Kayemeh wrote: Angelique Duchemin wrote: Since the starting of this thread you have trained about 1,2 million SP. Is the status quo restored yet? It's not the amount of skill points that matters in Eve, it's how players allocate them. My argument is that I have SP that I can no longer use due to game design changes. How is that not clear to you? You would be hard pressed to find a player that was happy with where all their SP are. I'm 3 months old and I have about a million SP that I wish I'd put somewhere else. Yeah, we all do that. There are a few skills for ships I'll never fly in Kayemeh that I wish weren't plugged in. Can't blame CCP for those, but it isn't the same thing as losing access to 600k sp in a design change. Just because you don't use it doesn't mean you lost access to it. Wow, again. Didn't feel like reading more than the last post in this thread? I have lost access, at least temporarily. I will need to train and buy a Caldari Dread. I have Minnie Dread at lvl 5, so that's 52 days and a few billion isk on a dread I don't want - all just use these 600k sp again. It's not going to happen. Would you choose to do that?
Hamatitio Aperture Harmonics K162 112	Posted - 2013.06.16 21:21:00 - [29] - Quote They should remove capital class missiles from the game, give the phoenix bonus to hybrids, and be done with it.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 376	Posted - 2013.06.16 21:29:00 - [30] - Quote Hamatitio wrote: They should remove capital class missiles from the game, give the phoenix bonus to hybrids, and be done with it. wouldnt that just turn it into a moros



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