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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Andouus La
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Posted - 2005.10.26 14:29:00 -
[1]
I've been checking up on the test server some of the new changes to the can jettisons that is made.
This is extremely positive to tha bone!!!
This new system as is it proposed is sooooo sweet.
First, the loots that npc pirates drops are named from your tker. Good deal.
If someone take from your loot he's flagged. Good deal.
All good up to now no comments to be made to that.
Where I saw some stuff to be tweaked is on the fact that you can still dock if you are flagged and this goes for the gates also I assume.
This would need a change. If you have a criminal flag from a theft, you shoud'nt be either to dock or use a gate during the time of your criminal flag.
Could be the same notice you have when you play with a corp mate and the station refuses for 15 secs to let you dock because of your recent agression.
Second, I was talking to peeps about this 15 minutes criminal theft flagging. Everybody seems to appreciate the idea.
Someone told me this thaugh. If you are in a barge, 15 min is enoth to go in a station and pick up another ship to go after a thief.
The criminal flagging should be extended to 30 minutes at least to be really be deterrent.
no whining i reapeat no whining - end of transmission lol.
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Sarina Talglit
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Posted - 2005.10.28 06:15:00 -
[2]
It seems to me that this "criminal flagging" is a big mistake about to happen.
First of all, why do you have to jet can mine? There is actually no need for it, especially if you are in a group there should be no chance for anyone to steal anything, unless, of course, you are macromining or afk mining and are not there to watch local events. Btw, afk miners can't move stuff to a can, anyways... If you do jet can mining in a miner group you are there to watch the can and can grab your own stuff if someone is closing in for a steal.
It seems to be that jet can miners are just plain lazy, not willing to pop in to a station to unload. Which really does not take more than minutes for a round trip if you even bother to set up any instamarks... A claim that 15 minutes is too long to visit a station and get back to the roid field is just plain silly. I can do it in two minutes with a Barge! Even faster with a mining cruiser. Use those instamarks!
Jet can mining is a choice which includes the risk of losing the ore. Why jet can miners should be especially protected, I cannot comprehend.
But all this does not matter to me. I don't steal ore. Nor do I do jet can mining.
I sure don't mind if my kill loots are protected. But that should be on a timer, say 5-10 minutes after the mission is done or 1-2 hours max in other cases. Otherwise the systems will be full of refused or ignored loot cans. And what that would do to server loads, well, would be interesting to see. Like 10.000 uncollected cans in Oursulaert, for example. Lol.
What bothers me however, is the possibility of killer teams in high security space especially hunting noobs. Spew some jet cans around noob areas and wait till some less aware character comes looking. Then *blammo*. Dead noob. Admit it, some of the more evil characters just plain enjoy killing noobs. Legalizing it could be very bad. Or do you plan on banning regulars from the noob systems altogether?
What about the other option? Nerf the jet cans. Make them the size of the smallest of available cans or the biggest droppable loot items. Have a rat kill drop several small cans. Problem solved as then there would be no need to jet can mine anymore...
We have been listening the whine of the jet canners  for months. Thus the "no whining" order is very, very welcome, indeed. Thank you. |
kveldulfson
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Posted - 2005.10.28 07:45:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Sarina Talglit
What bothers me however, is the possibility of killer teams in high security space especially hunting noobs. Spew some jet cans around noob areas and wait till some less aware character comes looking. Then *blammo*. Dead noob. Admit it, some of the more evil characters just plain enjoy killing noobs. Legalizing it could be very bad. Or do you plan on banning regulars from the noob systems altogether?
I have to agree there are elements to this that do cause concern. I did suggest in another post that the J cans droped by a player are only tagged whilst a player is within 4K and uncloaked which would stop the kill a noob plans..
I like the idea of a timer on possesion of the containers too hopefully further testing on singularity will help work out these issues.
I have to say I do get fed up with players hanging around the edge of a rat fight in the belts only to rush in and collect the loot when its over. At least this will give us the option of opening fire on them.
just my 2 cents
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Elfaen Ethenwe
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Posted - 2005.10.28 08:10:00 -
[4]
does the flagging effect jet cans then ?
I thought it was goign to be rat drops and loot drops from destroyed ships.
Also I thought there was going to be a timer, so after a period of time you will no longer be flagged for looting a can.
So after 15 minutes the can is anybodies.
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Stuu
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Posted - 2005.10.28 11:21:00 -
[5]
Ok, I love this idea of flagging all jet cans even miner cans. The miners like me (sometimes) mine solo and put 27k into the can and then go get the hauler. In this time you can get the swines that come in and pinch the stuff!
But the real question is does it flag you as a criminal if you are in a group? As this should not be the case.
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Kaaii
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Posted - 2005.10.28 14:09:00 -
[6]
Maybe a conformation box, like low sec space, to address the newbe-opening-can-blown-up scenairo..
"..Id rather fall beside 10 lions, then stand with One thousand sheep.."
http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php
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Gwenvahar
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Posted - 2005.10.28 22:14:00 -
[7]
The flagging element is not the typical criminal flagging.. It is a retaliatory flagging so that the canister owner can shoot you, no one else. This eliminated the concord involvement, and is why you can dock while flagged for a can theft. Im all good with this.
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Meowtis Commander
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Posted - 2005.10.28 22:33:00 -
[8]
I predict the next step will be to warp into a belt with cans with a few ganker buddies, snag loot from a can, and wait for them to aggress the gang.... 
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Gwenvahar
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Posted - 2005.10.28 22:47:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Meowtis Commander
I predict the next step will be to warp into a belt with cans with a few ganker buddies, snag loot from a can, and wait for them to aggress the gang....
Id say not because the flagging is only saposed to be between the theif and the owner, if gang mates get invovled in secure space condord will blast them. Anyone else who gets invoved on either side of the conflict is under standard agression rules.
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kveldulfson
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Posted - 2005.10.31 08:59:00 -
[10]
From what I have seen on the test server it allows corp mates and gang members to act against the thief also.
Trouble is on the test server that most people are in the same corp..
If I have time I will try and test this out further and ask questions of the devs on the singularity server
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Jenna Malone
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Posted - 2005.11.02 16:40:00 -
[11]
If I was flagged and the can owner took a shot at me, can I at least shoot back?
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Gwenvahar
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Posted - 2005.11.02 23:04:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jenna Malone
If I was flagged and the can owner took a shot at me, can I at least shoot back?
My origional understanding was that in the case of can thievery the flagging was just between the thief and owner of the can. Such that they could engage each other but no one else.. However other posts make my unsure about it now and i have no time to screw around with the test server.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.11.03 04:35:00 -
[13]
sounds good jumping on shortly to have a look im in a non PF corp so if amnyone wants to test me out ill play the bad guy
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Grey Area
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Posted - 2005.11.04 15:18:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Grey Area on 04/11/2005 15:19:00
I justdon't get this criminal flagging idea. It sounds horrible complex, open to exploitation and (in the end) a terrible overreaction to someone nicking a bit of ore.
Here (IMHO) is a better system.
All jettisoned cans are given the jettisoning player as owner (exception - cans jettisoned as a result of ship destruction would have the person who laid the final blow as owner)
Add a new item to the right click menu for cargo cans, called "claim". You can only claim cans that you own. You can claim a can that is within 100km of your location. If you log off or leave the system, all claimed cans become unclaimed.
If any other person takes loot from a claimed can, that loot gets a contraband flag (i.e. it's marked as stolen goods). Stations in 0.5+ space will not trade or refine stolen goods. Stolen goods that are detected by customs agents at gates (under the existing contraband rules) are subject to a fine, confiscation and security loss as is currently the case.
Once a contraband item has been sold or recycled in a station in 0.4 or less space, the item (or minerals) loses the contraband flag (it has effectively been "fenced"). If a contraband item is somehow returned to it's original owner, the flag would also be lost (stops people being a pain in the arse by taking the goods and putting them straight back, but as contraband)
Why I prefer this system;
1. It's a more reasonable response to theft than blowing somebody out of the sky.
2. It would allow ore/loot thieves to still carry out their trade...but they have to put some effort into it, smuggling the stuff out of secure space.
3. It won't stop people salvaging junk...I know some anal retentives will claim all cans even if they don't intend to collect it...but I'm sure most wouldn't be so mean. Plus once they have logged off/left system the goods are free for all again.
4. It's not as open to abuse as the criminal flagging system, as carrying contraband is NOT an excuse for other players to shoot at you.
I can't think of any situation that this system would not handle. Feel free to comment if you think there are any potential problems.
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* I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. *
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Grey Area
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Posted - 2005.11.04 15:21:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Gwenvahar
The flagging element is not the typical criminal flagging.. It is a retaliatory flagging so that the canister owner can shoot you, no one else. This eliminated the concord involvement, and is why you can dock while flagged for a can theft. Im all good with this.
So now can thieves will turn up in a BS, that's all. Most miners are not heavily armed. This patch should be called the "Dead Miner Patch", because that is what it will result in.
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* I'm ALLOWED to cheat. I'm a STARSHIP. *
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Gwenvahar
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Posted - 2005.11.05 07:09:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Grey Area
Originally by: Gwenvahar
The flagging element is not the typical criminal flagging.. It is a retaliatory flagging so that the canister owner can shoot you, no one else. This eliminated the concord involvement, and is why you can dock while flagged for a can theft. Im all good with this.
So now can thieves will turn up in a BS, that's all. Most miners are not heavily armed. This patch should be called the "Dead Miner Patch", because that is what it will result in.
If a BS pilot thinks they are making more ISK thieving can over anything else more power to them. The primary point is to reduce thievery in secure space, with miners who are just starting out, using unsecure cans. Also to reduce thievery of loot cans... It's the little fish in little ships which comprise the majority of can theft.
All in all any efort in this drection is better than none, and I believe future evolution of the system will be even more dynamic and intuitive.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.11.05 11:06:00 -
[17]
small problem how can u guys know about this yet CCP still havetn got the lateat build working on SISI its still running the TQ client. Please explain do u have choas server access or something ?
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j0sephine
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Posted - 2005.11.05 18:13:00 -
[18]
"If a BS pilot thinks they are making more ISK thieving can over anything else more power to them. The primary point is to reduce thievery in secure space, with miners who are just starting out, using unsecure cans."
The point you're missing though is, if the flagged thief can shoot back after being attacked, you will see people going to belts in battleships not to steal ore to make isk, but to steal ore so they can blow up the miners right under the nose of CONCORD.
Done this way it won't reduce thievery but if anything encourages it *and* cause miners die left and right on top of that. How's that improvement for the miners..?
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Gwenvahar
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Posted - 2005.11.05 20:14:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Gwenvahar on 05/11/2005 20:14:47
Originally by: j0sephine
"If a BS pilot thinks they are making more ISK thieving can over anything else more power to them. The primary point is to reduce thievery in secure space, with miners who are just starting out, using unsecure cans."
The point you're missing though is, if the flagged thief can shoot back after being attacked, you will see people going to belts in battleships not to steal ore to make isk, but to steal ore so they can blow up the miners right under the nose of CONCORD.
Done this way it won't reduce thievery but if anything encourages it *and* cause miners die left and right on top of that. How's that improvement for the miners..?
Aye I sapose this could be a new issue but if a BS stole ore from a can to provoke a fight, would any but the most foolish take that bait? I do not believe that this system will allow griefers to get themselves flaged just so that they can blast a miner.. I'd hope such an exploit of a system intended to reduce grief would never be so open to abuse. My belief is that the system allows the thief to be flaged such that the victem can shoot them if they want to and not get attcked by concord themselves. If the system allows thieves with superior firepower to get flaged to avoid concord for their true intent, to grief, then I think it will require more refinement before introduction..
Again I regret not having the time to investigate it myself on the test server. Has anyone been looking into it?
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Karrihn
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Posted - 2005.11.05 20:37:00 -
[20]
Originally by: j0sephine
"If a BS pilot thinks they are making more ISK thieving can over anything else more power to them. The primary point is to reduce thievery in secure space, with miners who are just starting out, using unsecure cans."
The point you're missing though is, if the flagged thief can shoot back after being attacked, you will see people going to belts in battleships not to steal ore to make isk, but to steal ore so they can blow up the miners right under the nose of CONCORD.
Done this way it won't reduce thievery but if anything encourages it *and* cause miners die left and right on top of that. How's that improvement for the miners..?
In a twisted demented and cruel way it will fetch a better price for mins? On the other hand it also would allow miners to set traps for the would-be theives.
The Destruction of your ship is usually preceeded by the thought,"I think I will try somthing a little different this time...." |
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Riley Craven
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Posted - 2005.11.06 17:11:00 -
[21]
As a semi carebare an past jet can miner I think this plan is way stupid and is taking more resources to fix than needed. Theiving should not be allowed plain and simple. Why? Because in real life you can put locks on anything you want. Why is it so hard to lock cans to everyone but that player or that gang? Because ccp likes this crap where people can effect each other. Why with all the tech in eve cant jet cans have locks, I will never know. So many things in this game make no since.
If they want to allow thieving then it should also be a sec status hit, its wrong just like shooting someone is.
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Gwenvahar
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Posted - 2005.11.07 05:42:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Riley Craven
As a semi carebare an past jet can miner I think this plan is way stupid and is taking more resources to fix than needed. Theiving should not be allowed plain and simple. Why? Because in real life you can put locks on anything you want. Why is it so hard to lock cans to everyone but that player or that gang? Because ccp likes this crap where people can effect each other. Why with all the tech in eve cant jet cans have locks, I will never know. So many things in this game make no since.
If they want to allow thieving then it should also be a sec status hit, its wrong just like shooting someone is.
The other side of this has to do with loot can theft and the missioning system.. Missions at gates or nearby populated ares attract thieves to the loot cans droped. This is especially true when its the larger ship classes, cruisers and BS's, as they can easily drop basic loot which at BS size can fetch 500k per item.
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lickspittle
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Posted - 2005.11.07 11:00:00 -
[23]
When you are criminal flagged for stealing from containers belonging to other people, you get criminal flagged to the player corporation of the person who owns the container, to the gang of the person that owns the container as well as directly to the owner of the container.
If the container is owned by a player corporation, then you get flagged to that corporation for stealing from it.
-- Richard
CCP Programmer. Anything said above is not the official line, but my own take or opinion. |
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.11.07 11:03:00 -
[24]
ok so can we use the new SISI build isntead of the TQ one that was running yet i really wanna try this out
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Anna IsI
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Posted - 2005.11.07 14:25:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jenna Malone
If I was flagged and the can owner took a shot at me, can I at least shoot back?
No and u you should die if you do, 'cousae you will have concord blasting you as well.
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StOrM ViPeR
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Posted - 2005.11.07 17:47:00 -
[26]
If you shoot the person that steals They can shoot back!
Great
I dont see an exploitable thing here at all.
I mean come on, A Battle Ship warps in , your hardly going to engage it when your in a belt.
no one does Ore theft in a battleship. These Changes are welcome, its what people have been screaming for.
Its really quite simple, The miner Jets his can, Ore theif comes in and steals ore, miner opens fire on Badger (BattleBadger) and either loses or dies.
Thats the nature of the game, The miner used to have to sit back and watch his ore vanish.
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2005.11.07 18:45:00 -
[27]
ROFL
i have a very good idea
after the patch im going with some friends to jita and sayon we give away free stuf on the local, jetison all cind of cans, they look in the can and grep the 1 unit of veldspar and then we gank em 
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Gwenvahar
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Posted - 2005.11.07 23:13:00 -
[28]
Originally by: lickspittle
When you are criminal flagged for stealing from containers belonging to other people, you get criminal flagged to the player corporation of the person who owns the container, to the gang of the person that owns the container as well as directly to the owner of the container.
If the container is owned by a player corporation, then you get flagged to that corporation for stealing from it.
Thank you for clearing up some questions
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Gwenvahar
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Posted - 2005.11.07 23:14:00 -
[29]
Originally by: The Wizz117
Edited by: The Wizz117 on 07/11/2005 18:49:50
ROFL
i have a very good idea
after the patch im going with some friends to jita and sayon we give away free stuf on the local, jetison all cind of cans, they look in the can and grep the 1 unit of veldspar and then we gank em
u do need more thinking for that then sitting behind a gate with a gang and shooting evryting that comes by!
Im sure the learning curve will be painful for some, fun for others, and a big yawn for the majority in the middle.
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sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.11.08 00:00:00 -
[30]
well basically the newbies that fall for it will soon be forum whining and will be told about the changes and not to trust anyone offering free loot that they havd dropped without having a) well armed ship b) covert ops c) big ship with cloaker so if the can is abandoned they can loot it cloak get out of range in case anyone is around and then back to station
Also u will need to check anyone in local that owns the can if not u can take it and then worry bou the risks
Still the macroers will find themselves losing more ships unless they update their programs to not take ore out of anyone elses can. - and of course all of that is against the EULA and if they are reported and found to be doing it - bye bye accountholder
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