Oh please, i hope you are smarter than this, because if this is how you work on the CSM...
EDIT: i see your trolled there a bit hm? ;) i take this issue very serous though, i have seen the good and bad times, and i don't like the "easy going" mentality at all that has become 0.0 life.

Easy logistics do 1 thing, and 1 thing only: make 0.0 small scale markets superfluous as you import EVERYTHING end export EVERYTHING to highsec to buy/sell high-volume.

For some time, a short time, we had at least some in-space logistics coming out of this, thus giving opportunity for PvP. That doesnt exist anymore, if you are no moron nobody will EVER catch you.

Risk/Reward, yes? Isn't that what we cry out for....

@baltec
good, do that if you like freighter logistics, but THEN you will have to deal with freigher runs. More PvP opportunity right there.

The problem NOW is that you get your cake and can eat it too. It doesnt really matter what you do, there is no drawback anymore.

It worked before, it would work now. PPL adapt.

but it worked BEFORE.

@baltec1

you talked about living behind enemy lines and not beeing able to without JFs (or carriers before). Now, i told you that smaller entities lived near highsec BECAUSE of that problem. See the solution right there?

If you really think you live behind enemy lines because you have a JF or 2, think again. The enemy lets you live there, he can stomp you any day.

Really beeing patient here, but what makes you think that this discussion revolves around your personal EGO of living in Venal? I don't really care. I don't even care if you think i know or don't anything about EvE, if i would have wanted to i would have posted with my MAIN no?

Its not about EGOs....try looking past that and coming back to interesting disussions.

@baltec1

really dude calm down now, always remember: "you don't know who you are talking to on a forum...". Don't throw around accusations.

And you would need to defend these items in transport, and people would wish to attack them.

And interesting game play in born.

You said you fully lived in the middle of someones space with out JF, and a good industry system and constantly got fights?

Compared to now?

You first. Let us know how that works out for you, though.

I too, hunger for node death and blueballs.

Perhaps you are right or perhaps not. One thing that is certain is that you can never say it'll never happen in EvE. We've had devs say things will never happen and they have despite that. Remember the Yulai superhighway? We very well might see some form of convoys flitting about null and low in the future without the super-safe supercapital superhighway that is bridging :) That would be super.

If and when such a changed happened it would not be todays EvE so that wouldnt be a problem.

That wouldnt be the case if moving caps around was so easy to do. One would assume that if moving goods around was a little harder then moving caps would be at least as difficult.

Firstly, it would only be so long before you couldn't field fleets of suicide dreadnoughts and Maelstroms, since you would have to build stuff locally, which requires resources diverted away from your defense budget.

Secondly, not everybody is a carebear that thinks loading up a freighter with valuables and piloting it willy nilly through unsecured space is a great idea. There are ways to move a freighter more quickly and ways to keep it out of harms way. There are ways to increase the security of the space around you. There are ways to diminish the likelihood of a traitorous act. There are ways of mitigating the results of a traitorous act, and, most importanly, there are ways of dealing with traitors.

You are thinking of a line of Obelisks full of space gold with 10 Rifters escorting them, but the one "convoy" I ever laid eyes on was 1 freighter and at least 30 escorts, battleship and battlecruiser heavy, and probably with capitals on standby. The one freighter escort op I was on was through well-known blue space. There was 1 freighter and 9 scouts. If any of our scouts had contacted you, we would have interdicted you and the freighter would have logged off.

If the logistics team that puts together a convoy makes it as easy as Jump -> Lock freighters -> Blap freighters, then they probably deserve to lose those freighters. But, not everybody is incompetent. And if they are, oh whelp.

Thirdly, mobile on-grid cyno jammer? Why not?

Fourthly, you guys love killing freighters? WTF?

Malcanis you never did answer my question on how you think a stealth bomber can cloak while in dock range. Come on man, everyone would love to know how to do that.

And all the "sky is falling" headless-chicken-running in the world isn't going to make convoys a deathtrap. You'll just have to spend a few people-hours scouting and defending, just like you keep telling folks to do in hisec.

You all are solving so much with blatant personal attacks.

Just another reminder for Devs to run like hell from all player "balancing" advice.

I was actually thinking you should just make yourself a boilerplate copy/paste covering the main facts and usual objections, and save yourself all manner of suffering.

Please show me in recruitment sub forum a single post where Goonswarm, Test, Initiative, PL, Nulli, TNT, NC.,FA, FC, Tribal or any other 0.0 sov holding entity is asking for experienced miners or manufacturers to join their alliance.

Frankly it is ridiculous you are attempting to sell this idea how above mentioned want industrialist to join them, but industrialist themselves refuse to do it.

I must say that is not entirely true.

While that is likely true, or close to be true, IGÇÖll bet that even those few slots are mostly unused.

Space communism causes shortage of manufacturing slots.

Why would that be so hard?

The mechanics already exist to allow industry to happen in 0.0. It's just that there are also many mechanics in play that make the alternative of "make stuff in hisec, jump freighter it to null" more profitable. Then there's the issue of alliance leadership proclaiming that industrialists are only allowed in certain systems if at all, refusing to reimburse for losses to blues, treating industrialists as objects instead of people, demanding that products be listed in nullsec markets at Jita prices, ad nauseum.

The greatest problem with null sec is the people in null sec.

My suggestions are to make industry player-driven in all areas of the game, with NPC services available as a crutch or boot-strapping exercise (for the hypothetical situation of the game being started from scratch). By pushing industry into POSes, nullsec gets the "farms and field" style of play that various people were ever so keen on during CSM6, and wardecs start to become more meaningful. That line of thought doesn't seem to have been carried on by recent nullsec advocates though.

I wonder what happened to the fascination with farms and fields? I wonder if someone grew a brain and realised that having farms and fields means not only do you get stuff to shoot at to hurt your enemy, but they get stuff of yours to shoot in order to hurt you.

newbie production.

Strangely enough, nullsec denizens are equally guilty of contributing to the problem they complain about. Over and over that has been explained unfortunately =(

You do so have the ability to change the number of industry slots in nullsec. It's just that POSes are too costly to set up when you have the easy option of just freighting stuff down from Jita. So you choose not to. The economic and social pressures guiding your decision are irrelevant when discussing whether or not nullsec has the ability to do industry.

The economic pressures include the cost of running POSes over using NPC manufacturing slots, the inefficiency of POS refineries, and the risk of losing the POS to enemies (but then that's what "farms and fields" is all about).

What you want, to manufacture locally for the nullsec wars/event whatever you call it (AHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH), or manufacture in null using superior industry and then unload everything in jita for the hs market using ungankable jf? Null should never be self-sufficient like wspace should never be self-sufficient, it's a bad design.
Tho, I agree people should be able to do some local manufacturing, CCP is already buffing the null industry with the next patch so stop crying.
By the way have fun mining ice in null, I'll be there with my mighty purifier.

Wow a whiteboard from 2011

ungankable jf

so what's your point?

1 out of 200 jf is getting killed I bet they are the smartest jf pilots

Learn to read, CCP want null to be 99% self sufficient in volume.
After checking the first eve kill pages for last month you are obviously pulling that 45% number out of your ass, they are more like 10% and none of them are in npc corp, also most of them are getting reimbursed.

I know that the CFC for some time has been reputed to have a more generous SRP than the rest of us, so it might be true that your JF's get reimbursed, but I have yet to hear of anyone else who, on alliance or coalition levels, would reimburse JF's unless they were used for strategic purposes.
I've seen the question of whether to reimburse grey freigher alts dying on blue POS's during major ops...
Point being, reimbursing even the hull is not a given.

Page three =

0 JF killed in null. So it's 0% so jf can't die.

Over the entire month its 10%.

Wow cargo aren't reimbursed? I think I'll cry.
Your logic bro.

Low sec is irrelevant

Ask yourself what are they doing in lowsec and how relevant it is to the discussion about nullsec.
JF aren't invincible but a normally (or even below) constituted person flying a jf is ungankable, can you understand the difference or you want me to make it simpler.
Because I have no problem explaining basic stuff to you guys.

People actually losing jfs are a minority for the jf population, besides how many billions isk were scammed this year?
You should never lose a jf if you're not massively bad at this game.

Feel free to explain why an alliance with tons of resources would not reimburse jf hulls, crippling their own economy and losing profits.
If you can actually read my post this time of course.

completely irrelevant

Except that they are not claims just my opinion/suppositions on JF reimbursements, because in this particular case it's impossible to gather enough legit data to tell if most JFs are getting reimbursed, you can't either.

That's a cute claim but where are the api keys? I need to check it for myself and I'll then confirm or not that what you are saying is true.
Can't wait to have every guy who lost a jf api key.

But you link a KB full of random none affiliated alliance scrubs, these are they same people that end up as stupid dead carrier's and other dumb ****.

As soon as you provide a acceptable list of Logistic alts from your alliance, showing clear API losses of JF, in use in low sec or null sec, that are CLEARLY members of your Logistic wing( we know its there its the same people that haul the loads of alliance moon poo to high sec)

But you cant do that can you, because they have no losses of any notable amount, because they NEVER DIE during there runs.

If there not ACTIVE member's of the group of people that Supply YOUR FLEET SHIPS, YOUR GUNS, YOUR AMMO, POS FUEL, and all the other items it takes to keep your alliance in fighting condition every day of the week, they ARE irrelevant to this conversation.

No there not

You know why they don't matter don't you?

Because there just grunts doing grunt things, if they die no one cares besides them and there friends that lost junk.


If your real logistic guys died, you would have alliance less ships to hand out, less alliance fuel for your POS's, less alliance moon poo would make it to market resulting in less alliance ISK to buy and replace war assets with.

I, Stonecrusher Mortlock, have never said JF where unkillable, i said your supply lines are impossible in interfere with, there's a deference.

Hmm, we should replace cyno-based logistics with structure-shooting based logistics.

Like you have to defend your infrastructure hub, because it provides your logistical infrastructure (rather than the cyno-based system).

If your planning to act like a moron for the foreseeable further i have no reason to continue responding to any thing you post.

---

The argument is invalid for Alphaing freighters/JF, you simply give them a massive HP BUFF, its clearly not imbalanced as they have no guns, and they move about as fast as a small moon. It gives you ample time to defend them, as well.

Did i not all ready GIVE you that answer in the post you quoted?

You do know alliance directors can set an individual's standings correct, witch allow them to dock at and station that is set to allow that standing level to dock. So any alliance that knows what its doing WILL set your hauling alt with the correct standings to do this if you ask and prove YOU are the person doing it, so you can avoid all tho's pesky high sec war decs null alliance pick up.

Please tell me you have something more than that to go on.

HURR DUURR HURRR, if you don't have all of the info but out, if you had looked you would see that person was trying to say O NO ONE USED NPC CORP because then we cant dock at are null stations. I had to point out that YOU CAN use NPC corps and STILL dock at your null station's.

Pure lies, ever word of it, even if they ARE in player corps, you have all the tools at your fingertips to make it safe to keep running the items you need, if your war deced, you leave corp or Move to a none war deced corp, if you don't YOU DIE, The fact i say it takes being Poking your eye out with a pencil stupid, to die in ANY JF.

and, you have been presented a fully working solution, that CCP can do if they so chose to, but you keep saying NO NO NO NO,
and presenting long and complicated reply's that when boiled down all come out to be BUT THE RISK, BUT THE EFFORT.

How? you mean the high sec Freighter ganking community? Most of them only gank because there's no effective way to pin someone with a war dec and make it stick. AND they can still gank everything thing else.

How? You mean by providing them more larger targets moving items around in giant LOOT bag's for them to fight over?
Given a buff to all Freighter HP so they don't die the moment someone looks in there direction.

How? I suggested nothing that they cant actively take part in, be in the new null industry or gaining there supply's from high sec.

If any thing i suggested something that makes the life's of the few major blocks harder, and improved the lives of many a smaller group by providing suggestion's that increase fleet activity's(small and larger), and gate traffic in low sec and null.

Well, concerning most people using that board as some sort of proof can't read, that's one reason. The fact you have people saying "null should be 99% efficient) when the focus is on T2, not T1, and all they do is mention (yourself included) is how null can't manufacture the T1 hulls, or ammo, to support it.

Your precious whitboard doesn't account for that. It quite clearly says to focus on T2 production, which uhm, I thought it already did. Atleast in the areas of null I've lived. I don't see much t1 for sale in open markets but I can quite a few t2 anything within reach.

So yea, that's why.

You do know you you could just go shoo them in low sec? If the change happened.

No, as you still HAVE JF's its just now more dangerous if the changes happened, JUMP - DOCK, now it would be JUMP - WARP TO STATION - DOCK.

No, as seen above, i don't think any null alliance can camp EVERY SYSTEM, at ALL TIMES, they can get supply's Just fine.

Why would your move your hubs near to high sec you can set up industry now and build all your own stuff, you have a New pos system that's was custom built to allow you to build it up how ever you please, JF/cynos/bridges where nurfed in a way as to make supplying harder than just building it your self if you lived that deep.

Your bad at seeing how multiple changes would effect each other change for a compounding effect.

You read 1 line of that section. Keep reading.

"-geared towards t2"

Any expanding on this idea you will just have to ask the devs, because I do not se anything mentioning T1 at all, and only mention of T2.

_edited to add the note that I'm not a dev so can only read what's given to me, not read minds_