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HippoKing	Posted - 2005.10.28 19:02:00 - [1] i am a caldari i fly a raven for a long time, the raven was uber. now it is not. many caldari are whining big time. i understand the problem, but whining is just really damn annoying for gallente and amarr, times are good. they have no reason to whine, and thus aren't however, as far as i can tell, minmatar aren't uber by any stretch of the imagination - in many ways theyre less good than the caldari. but consider this: how many minmatar whines have you seen? i'm sure it hasn't been very many, and has been totally dwarfed by the number of caldari whines. so here it is: props to the minmatar for not complaining cos the times aren't great atm -- This Zig. For great justice!
Randay	Posted - 2005.10.28 19:09:00 - [2] there was a minnie thread around here somewhere, hopefully it dies but it probly wont. it was a pretty bad whine. but i agree whining is just really damn annoying. and i think raven is still uber, im training my missile and shield skills up atm just for raven. ------------------------------------------- "Det hõr kan betyda krig!"
Sarmaul	Posted - 2005.10.28 19:20:00 - [3] Originally by: HippoKing i am a caldari i fly a raven for a long time, the raven was uber. now it is not. many caldari are whining big time. i understand the problem, but whining is just really damn annoying for gallente and amarr, times are good. they have no reason to whine, and thus aren't however, as far as i can tell, minmatar aren't uber by any stretch of the imagination - in many ways theyre less good than the caldari. but consider this: how many minmatar whines have you seen? i'm sure it hasn't been very many, and has been totally dwarfed by the number of caldari whines. so here it is: props to the minmatar for not complaining cos the times aren't great atm o We have the biggest alpha strike guns in the game o We have one of the few ships that (with skills) can fit a full rack of it's best guns (1400mm IIs) and a full rack of gyrostabs without any powercore or cpu upgrades, and still have room for sensor boosters, tracking computers and all manner of EW gizmos o Our guns have the longest range o Our ships (bar like 3) have the best speed. combined with the point above that means a good pilot will control the battle o Fastest lock times of all races o Some of the most versatile ships in the entire game (compare the amount of setups you can fit on a geddon/apoc to a tempest/typhoon) o All damage types o Our large guns use 3 cap per shot o Our ships aren't stingy on the high slots (i.e. scorp/domi) o Missile slots in abundance (yes they can be useful if the right launchers are used) o Lots of mid slots for EW/shield tanking o 2 of the best interceptors in the game o The Wolf assault ship, which can down nigh-on any ceptor with 2 volleys o The only T2 ships that laugh when a full gank zealot starts shooting them The only real whine minmatar have is that the tracking on all long-range and BS-close range is utter crap. I can handle that if it means we get all the cool stuff listed above. The reason minmatar don't whine is because we like our ships being understated and for people not to know how good they are - keeps the prices down and the nerf-bat away :) Originally by: Chowdown We camp a lot
danneh	Posted - 2005.10.28 19:21:00 - [4] Ever fought against a 30m sp minmatar specilist?.
Hampstah	Posted - 2005.10.28 19:29:00 - [5] Sarmaul is lying, he is obviously an Amarr spy. Minmatar suck at everything, it's true. Duct tape, glue and string was probably not the best choice for starship construction. p.s. Nerf Caldari more ----- Beware Rodentz with Gunz
Grimpak	Posted - 2005.10.28 20:05:00 - [6] Originally by: danneh Ever fought against a 30m sp minmatar specilist?. I never fought one, but from my experience, I know that I don't want to fight one ------------------- Celestial Horizon: we go zerg on you
Ras Blumin	Posted - 2005.10.28 20:37:00 - [7] Originally by: Sarmaul o Our guns have the longest range I don't think that is true. p - l - u - r
JoeSomebody	Posted - 2005.10.28 21:34:00 - [8] Originally by: Sarmaul o We have the biggest alpha strike guns in the game but crappy dps Quote: o We have one of the few ships that (with skills) can fit a full rack of it's best guns (1400mm IIs) and a full rack of gyrostabs without any powercore or cpu upgrades, and still have room for sensor boosters, tracking computers and all manner of EW gizmos what skills are you talking about? I have adv. weapon upgrades lvl4 and I cant fit that. Besides it is not like Tempest has 7-8 turret hardpoints anyway... Quote: o Fastest lock times of all races and shortest range and lowest sensor strength... Quote: o Some of the most versatile ships in the entire game (compare the amount of setups you can fit on a geddon/apoc to a tempest/typhoon) yet in most cases totaly outclassed by specialised ships Quote: o Our large guns use 3 cap per shot it is not like we could trade much of it for tanking anyway everything else is arguable as well. Im not going to say that minmatar ships are crap... not now anyway - we will see after MK2 and HP boost. ____ Petition: Nerf alts!
Nafri	Posted - 2005.10.28 21:36:00 - [9] gallente have as many mids as we have, mostly more ^^ -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
Troezar	Posted - 2005.10.28 21:54:00 - [10] Most people think Minmatar ships are crap because they are if you don't have the skills. We need good skills in all areas to make the most of our ships...I'm still working on it
Sarmaul	Posted - 2005.10.28 22:48:00 - [11] Originally by: JoeSomebody Originally by: Sarmaul o We have one of the few ships that (with skills) can fit a full rack of it's best guns (1400mm IIs) and a full rack of gyrostabs without any powercore or cpu upgrades, and still have room for sensor boosters, tracking computers and all manner of EW gizmos what skills are you talking about? I have adv. weapon upgrades lvl4 and I cant fit that. Jesus have you actually trained any engineering skills? As for the gun range, I meant to add when including falloff (added to the original post). Originally by: Chowdown We camp a lot
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.10.28 23:14:00 - [12] Edited by: DrunkenOne on 28/10/2005 23:15:19 Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: JoeSomebody Originally by: Sarmaul o We have one of the few ships that (with skills) can fit a full rack of it's best guns (1400mm IIs) and a full rack of gyrostabs without any powercore or cpu upgrades, and still have room for sensor boosters, tracking computers and all manner of EW gizmos what skills are you talking about? I have adv. weapon upgrades lvl4 and I cant fit that. Jesus have you actually trained any engineering skills? As for the gun range, I meant to add when including falloff (added to the original post). you can only fit 6 1400 IIs 6 damage mods with advanced weapon upgrades 5, and fitting 6 damage mods will suck after the patch. BTW minmatar have the worst dps, the worst optimal, the worst tracking, our short range ammo does 10% less base damage (44 compared to 48), we have the worst tanks, our t2 ships have 2 low resists, we have the worst caps, the lowest targetting range, and the worst BS in the game. Cosmic Fusion KB
Meridius	Posted - 2005.10.28 23:20:00 - [13] Edited by: Meridius on 28/10/2005 23:20:41 Originally by: HippoKing so here it is: props to the minmatar for not complaining cos the times aren't great atm Minmatar have a lot of good going for them, no clue what you're talking about tbh. Some advantages that stick out to me: + Tech 1 frigates people actually use + Damage types + Less vulnerability to tracking disruptors + Speed (1000m/s Vagabond with AB 4tw) + Little to no cap use for offense + Flexible slot arrangements + Free active EM hardner on inties + Racial resists that do there job + AC's are easy as **** to fit Some negatives: - Weak tanking - Mediocre DPS (countered by either EW potential or speed) - Low tracking - Typhoon - Nafri ________________________________________________________
Meridius	Posted - 2005.10.28 23:23:00 - [14] Originally by: DrunkenOne our short range ammo does 10% less base damage (44 compared to 48) You know the projectile boost you guys got a while back? What if they removed it and upped dmg from 44 to 48? Get my drift ________________________________________________________
Nafri	Posted - 2005.10.28 23:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 28/10/2005 23:20:41 Originally by: HippoKing so here it is: props to the minmatar for not complaining cos the times aren't great atm Minmatar have a lot of good going for them, no clue what you're talking about tbh. Some advantages that stick out to me: + Tech 1 frigates people actually use + Damage types + Less vulnerability to tracking disruptors + Speed (1000m/s Vagabond with AB 4tw) + Little to no cap use for offense + Flexible slot arrangements + Free active EM hardner on inties + Racial resists that do there job + AC's are easy as **** to fit Some negatives: - Weak tanking - Mediocre DPS (countered by either EW potential or speed) - Low tracking - Typhoon - Nafri ohh :D, but Im Caldari Deteis, just fighting for the weak, and expressing my internal hate for the l33t amarr ships -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
Harry Voyager	Posted - 2005.10.29 02:06:00 - [16] Edited by: Harry Voyager on 29/10/2005 02:07:23 Originally by: Meridius Originally by: DrunkenOne our short range ammo does 10% less base damage (44 compared to 48) You know the projectile boost you guys got a while back? What if they removed it and upped dmg from 44 to 48? Get my drift The projectile boost was so that projectiles had a pre-ammo dps that was at least compairable to other weapon classes. Back when 1400mm's only had a 5x damage mod, a Tempest with lvl 5 battleship could only manage a 2.1164x effective mod, while the Apoc with Mega Beams had a base damage mod of 2.67 from the start. The Arma with Mega Beams had a lvl 5 damage mod of 3.11. The Megathron at lvl 5 had a 425mm damage mod of 2.51625. Once you threw in the 10% loss in ammo damage, the old Tempest simply wasn't worth the trit it was made of. Now with the 15% boost in projectile dps, we have reached at least parity, with a lvl 5 dps of 2.43386, compaired to the Mega's 2.5 and the Arma's 3.11 Remember, even with the boosts, a lvl 5 Tempest is only doing, at most 107.09 gross dps, while the Mega and Arma are grossing in at 120.778 and 149.333 respectively. Even if Projectile ammo were boosted to true 48 gross, we'd still only be dealing 116.825 dps I think the reasons people aren't complaining much about the Tempest are because it has been in this state for so long that it has become accepted, and the only people left who use it are the one who love it, and have decided to specialize in it, reguardless of how well it performs compaired to similare ships. If any of you remember the way Amarr ships were a couple years ago, they were in the same state, and last year it was the Gallente battleships. In six-seven months, it will be the Caldari battleships. Doesn't mean that they aren't underpowered, it just means nobody cares anymore. Harry Voyager
dust monkey	Posted - 2005.10.29 10:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Meridius Edited by: Meridius on 28/10/2005 - Typhoon may i say something, uber tanking flying rubbish dumpster :D ever since the SOTG vid i seen i was amazed tanking on 4 otheer bs ( maybe more ) and winning
Fredbob	Posted - 2005.10.29 10:46:00 - [18] We've got our issues, but people don't spec minnie without reason ___________ ~Fredbob~
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.10.29 11:57:00 - [19] Originally by: Meridius Some advantages that stick out to me: + Tech 1 frigates people actually use unlike the kestrel, the tristan, the incursus, the punisher ? Quote: + Damage types unlike Caldari or galleante who do the same dmg types (galleante - explosive)? Quote: + Less vulnerability to tracking disruptors eh why is that ? Our tracking is bad as it is wont get better by 1-2 disruptors added or ? Quote: + Speed (1000m/s Vagabond with AB 4tw) Yes the incredible speed, 242 basespeed compared to 215 on a zealot. Those 30 basespeed safed me a thousand times, honestly. (not saying the vaggie is bad, its prolly our best ship) Quote: + Little to no cap use for offense Thats right, to cover up for that we have the worst cap of all races not to mention the actual gun problems. tho its "good". Quote: + Flexible slot arrangements This is not an advantage or a disadvantage really. It can be helpfull or end in a total desaster if u face someone utterly going "all out" due to his slot layou and last but not least we have the ships which have the lowest skills applying to highslot of all races (tempest = 6 of 8 -same as the raven-, typhoon 4 of 8) Quote: + Free active EM hardner on inties + Racial resists that do there job + AC's are easy as **** to fit all ceptors have ~90% resistance spread out over all armor dmg types So minnies are better against amarr but weaker against other dmg types compared to amarr i.e. All resists do their job tho :p AC's are also the weakest dps weapons in the game and dont have any burst dmg either. your negatives however are spot on ;) but we dont wanna whine, im sure the devs have stuff for us in the backhand after our dread rocked so hard and our freighter was incredible. P.s. our problem is not that we are all over worse off then other races, we are just medicore in everything where it matters.
Tachy	Posted - 2005.10.29 12:11:00 - [20] Our projectile guns got the best sound, we got the best looking ships, not to mention the most pleasant guys and girls in space! Oh, and our skills in whining are only mediocre too.
Weirda	Posted - 2005.10.29 15:18:00 - [21] Edited by: Weirda on 29/10/2005 15:21:06 testify! minmatar pilot just understand that: - pilot skills + fitting skills > max dps + theoretical perfection - cookie cutter setup are stupid because of these two thing, our marginal dps and marginal tanking ability are overcome by our ability to 'do more damage faster' to a 'superior' ship by not relying on cookie cutter setup (that everyone counters) and f1-fx (click) and wait tactics... (wtfdidntwinsploit!!!) caldari actually could learn a lot from minmatar, but it seem that many would rather ** all over and free thinker of you race about how 'you still an idiot, our dps is abysmil, hes just gonna warp out, etc...'. sucessful matari are free thinkers... you can get the job done in any ship... matari know this... many other race just don't. -- Thread Killer (attempt to train verbosity from 4 back down to 1 -- failed**) <END TRANSMISSION>
DrunkenOne	Posted - 2005.10.29 15:28:00 - [22] Originally by: Weirda Edited by: Weirda on 29/10/2005 15:21:06 testify! minmatar pilot just understand that: - pilot skills + fitting skills > max dps + theoretical perfection - cookie cutter setup are stupid because of these two thing, our marginal dps and marginal tanking ability are overcome by our ability to 'do more damage faster' to a 'superior' ship by not relying on cookie cutter setup (that everyone counters) and f1-fx (click) and wait tactics... (wtfdidntwinsploit!!!) caldari actually could learn a lot from minmatar, but it seem that many would rather **** all over and free thinker of you race about how 'you still an idiot, our dps is abysmil, hes just gonna warp out, etc...'. sucessful matari are free thinkers... you can get the job done in any ship... matari know this... many other race just don't. Weirda for teh win. Cosmic Fusion KB
Critta	Posted - 2005.10.29 15:34:00 - [23] Well - haven't tried the BS's yet... but got no whines about pretty much anything below that on the Minnie front... :D
Forsch	Posted - 2005.10.29 15:40:00 - [24] Edited by: Forsch on 29/10/2005 15:41:30 Edited by: Forsch on 29/10/2005 15:40:40 Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: Meridius + Less vulnerability to tracking disruptors eh why is that ? Our tracking is bad as it is wont get better by 1-2 disruptors added or ? He probably means the optimal decrease that tracking disruptors do. Projectiles have low optimal but great falloff. So by cutting some of the optimal they are still doing well. This is something for long ranges mostly when tracking nis not such an issue. Lasers in turn are the other way round. High optimal, almost no falloff. Depending on the situation tracking disruptors can hurt both weapons quite alot. The Auctoritan Syndicate Defenders of the Empire - Curatores Veritatis Alliance
Kara Kaprica	Posted - 2005.10.29 19:38:00 - [25] the lower somethings tracking is to start with the less it is hampered by tracking disruptors. a percentage of a small number is less than the same percentage of a big number.
Sarmaul	Posted - 2005.10.29 19:48:00 - [26] Originally by: DrunkenOne Edited by: DrunkenOne on 28/10/2005 23:15:19 Originally by: Sarmaul Originally by: JoeSomebody Originally by: Sarmaul o We have one of the few ships that (with skills) can fit a full rack of it's best guns (1400mm IIs) and a full rack of gyrostabs without any powercore or cpu upgrades, and still have room for sensor boosters, tracking computers and all manner of EW gizmos what skills are you talking about? I have adv. weapon upgrades lvl4 and I cant fit that. Jesus have you actually trained any engineering skills? As for the gun range, I meant to add when including falloff (added to the original post). you can only fit 6 1400 IIs 6 damage mods with advanced weapon upgrades 5, and fitting 6 damage mods will suck after the patch. I have advanced weapon upgrades 3 and engineering 5 and can (and do) fit 6 1400mm IIs, 6 gyro IIs, 2 assault launchers + sensor boosters/tracking comps. You are teh wrong. Originally by: Chowdown We camp a lot
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.10.29 21:49:00 - [27] Originally by: Sarmaul I have advanced weapon upgrades 3 and engineering 5 and can (and do) fit 6 1400mm IIs, 6 gyro IIs, 2 assault launchers + sensor boosters/tracking comps. You are teh wrong. dude PLEASE use math before posting. 6 1400 t2 with advanced upgrades 3 = 3575 * 6 * 0.94 = 20163 Pg needed Tempest with just engineering 5 and no pg mods: 15500 (base value) * 1.25 = 19375 as 20163 > 19375 it means that NO u are WRONG. with the skill on 5 you can fit 6 1400 t2 and 6 dmg mods otherwise you CANT.
HippoKing	Posted - 2005.10.29 21:58:00 - [28] Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: Sarmaul I have advanced weapon upgrades 3 and engineering 5 and can (and do) fit 6 1400mm IIs, 6 gyro IIs, 2 assault launchers + sensor boosters/tracking comps. You are teh wrong. dude PLEASE use math before posting. 6 1400 t2 with advanced upgrades 3 = 3575 * 6 * 0.94 = 20163 Pg needed Tempest with just engineering 5 and no pg mods: 15500 (base value) * 1.25 = 19375 as 20163 > 19375 it means that NO u are WRONG. with the skill on 5 you can fit 6 1400 t2 and 6 dmg mods otherwise you CANT. while ur maths seems ok (i haven't checked it tho), this guy does claim to have a ship fitted this way. if he does, then one of sorja's quotes applies: "i fly a ship, not a spreadsheet" a screenshot of this fitted would be nice tho -- This Zig. For great justice!
Nafri	Posted - 2005.10.29 21:59:00 - [29] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: Sarmaul I have advanced weapon upgrades 3 and engineering 5 and can (and do) fit 6 1400mm IIs, 6 gyro IIs, 2 assault launchers + sensor boosters/tracking comps. You are teh wrong. dude PLEASE use math before posting. 6 1400 t2 with advanced upgrades 3 = 3575 * 6 * 0.94 = 20163 Pg needed Tempest with just engineering 5 and no pg mods: 15500 (base value) * 1.25 = 19375 as 20163 > 19375 it means that NO u are WRONG. with the skill on 5 you can fit 6 1400 t2 and 6 dmg mods otherwise you CANT. while ur maths seems ok (i haven't checked it tho), this guy does claim to have a ship fitted this way. if he does, then one of sorja's quotes applies: "i fly a ship, not a spreadsheet" a screenshot of this fitted would be nice tho I couldnt fit that :D -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Put your panties on your head!
Kcel Chim	Posted - 2005.10.29 22:11:00 - [30] Originally by: HippoKing Originally by: Kcel Chim Originally by: Sarmaul I have advanced weapon upgrades 3 and engineering 5 and can (and do) fit 6 1400mm IIs, 6 gyro IIs, 2 assault launchers + sensor boosters/tracking comps. You are teh wrong. dude PLEASE use math before posting. 6 1400 t2 with advanced upgrades 3 = 3575 * 6 * 0.94 = 20163 Pg needed Tempest with just engineering 5 and no pg mods: 15500 (base value) * 1.25 = 19375 as 20163 > 19375 it means that NO u are WRONG. with the skill on 5 you can fit 6 1400 t2 and 6 dmg mods otherwise you CANT. while ur maths seems ok (i haven't checked it tho), this guy does claim to have a ship fitted this way. if he does, then one of sorja's quotes applies: "i fly a ship, not a spreadsheet" a screenshot of this fitted would be nice tho unless there is a bug which noone bar him encounters i guess we can all go with the "spreadsheet" as you are not flying a ship either :p you are flying poligons covering informations stored in a database. A database following the rules of math :p

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