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I've seen a lot of rants about faction turrets...

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Felsusguy SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 267	Posted - 2013.06.01 09:44:00 - [1] - Quote And I don't see the point. Faction Turrets loaded with Faction Ammunition have better tracking, use less powergrid, are less capacitor intensive and have similar damage. The following are with max skills. Federation Navy Light Neutron Blaster loaded with Guardian Antimatter S: -Range: Around 4km -DPS: 36.8 DPS -Tracking Speed: 0.475 rads per second -Powergrid Usage: 7.2 megawatts -Capacitor Usage: 0.329 gigajoules per second Light Neutron Blaster II loaded with Void S: -Range: Around 3km (-1km) -DPS: 41.6 DPS (+4.8) -Tracking Speed: 0.356 rads per second (-25%) -Powergrid Usage: 8.1 megawatts (+0.9 megawatts) -Capacitor Usage: 0.514 gigajoules per second (+0.185) If you ask me, faction turrets seem fairly decent. They use less powergrid and capacitor, which leaves room for more tank and utility, and they also have better tracking, which is useful against smaller targets. If you take away Tech II ammo from the equation, the same still applies, to a slightly lesser extent. For projectile turrets, which don't use capacitor, faction turrets still have an advantage because they can use faction ammo to its fullest potential, whereas T2 turrets are entirely inferior when not using T2 ammo, thus limiting effective usage of different damage types. So, tell me, what is the real reason why people complain about T2 turrets being so superior, begging to use T2 ammo with faction turrets? Is it because of the cost of faction turrets, or is it because of the misfounded belief that faction should be better than T2 in every way? The first can be solved by lowering the cost of faction items to keep them in line with how effective they are, and the second can be solved through education, but I must say that I am annoyed whenever someone talks about how faction turrets are completely inferior. How droll.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 256	Posted - 2013.06.01 09:54:00 - [2] - Quote Because people don't use void on blasters they use null or anti. Because people use scorch on lasers and not conflagration. You have to understand that damage application, or range is a stat that is severely underestimated by many people.
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet 5112	Posted - 2013.06.01 10:04:00 - [3] - Quote Why don't you do an actual comparison of the weapons? Use all the different faction weapons of the same category with the same ammo and do comparisons. Then analyze what you think of their inability of using T2 ammo and how it affects their usage. Don't do this half-assed fail comparison where you compared these two weapons with completely different ammo and then ignore, that much of the positives you attribute to the faction guns actually come from the negatives caused by the ammo you chose for the comparison gun. Do it properly or don't do it at all.
Alticus C Bear University of Caille Gallente Federation 154	Posted - 2013.06.01 10:21:00 - [4] - Quote Exactly as stated above with the same ammo fed navy blasters have worse range and damage, rarely does the fitting difference give any value. Perhaps if you dropped the tag requirements and made them dirt cheap they would be good for new players.
Felsusguy SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 268	Posted - 2013.06.01 10:40:00 - [5] - Quote Destination SkillQueue wrote: that much of the positives you attribute to the faction guns actually come from the negatives caused by the ammo you chose for the comparison gun. Not really. Faction turrets have very similar damage and use much less capacitor. Alticus C Bear wrote: Exactly as stated above with the same ammo fed navy blasters have worse range and damage, rarely does the fitting difference give any value. As I have said, the capacitor difference, even when using the same ammo, is incredible, and the damage difference is negligible. Tsukino Stareine wrote: Because people don't use void on blasters they use null or anti. Because people use scorch on lasers and not conflagration. You have to understand that damage application, or range is a stat that is severely underestimated by many people. I use void all the time and it works better than Antimatter for me. Aside from that, I did the comparisons, and it is quite clear to me that with the same ammunition, faction turrets are superior to tech II turrets. Thus, I did a second comparison that held both in their most favorable lights. How droll.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 256	Posted - 2013.06.01 10:42:00 - [6] - Quote Better for what? Pos bashing?
Cable Udan The Tuskers 222	Posted - 2013.06.01 13:33:00 - [7] - Quote lolz, I didn't know people still just looked at the big number in EFT and took that as the truth. Void is not better than CN AM unless you're shooting something bigger and slower than you. Oh and webs. http://chasingtheblueflash.blogspot.com/ My Pirate Blog
Kasutra Tailor Company Hashashin Cartel 201	Posted - 2013.06.01 14:09:00 - [8] - Quote Felsusguy wrote: As I have said, the capacitor difference, even when using the same ammo, is incredible, and the damage difference is negligible. To be fair, this does lead to faction guns sometimes being used in favor of T2, when the T2 ammo isn't good/required. I think the Nightmare (with faction tachs) is the only example I've seen in real space, but sure, it's an advantage. Just not one that's relevant enough.
Grandma Squirel Squirel Enterprises 2	Posted - 2013.06.01 15:19:00 - [9] - Quote First, there is an insufficient quantity of top end ammo on market at any price, so you don't get to use Dread Guristas or Guardian ammo as a bench mark. Second, most people using blasters are using large ones, so lets look at them. Max skilled Rokh, 8 blasters, 3 magstabs, shooting another Rokh at max transversal Tech II Guns with Void - 42M isk Range 2.5 - 600 dps Range 5 - 900 dps Range 10.5 - 983 dps Range 15 - 550 dps Range 20 - 125 dps Cap stable for 5m 27s Tank on, MWD off Tech II Guns with CN Antimatter - 42M isk Range 2.5 - 690 dps Range 5 - 850dps Range 10 - 835 dps Range 15 - 581 dps Range 20 - 315 dps Cap stable for 7m 17s Tank on, MWD off Faction Guns with CN Antimatter - 936M isk Range 2.5 - 650 dps Range 5 - 803 dps Range 10 - 760 dps Range 15 - 508 dps Range 20 - 264 dps Cap stable for 10m 7s Tank on, MWD off -- The only place where the faction guns are superior is cap stability. 900 million isk, for another 3 minutes of cap does not seem like a good trade off to me.
Sergeant Acht Scultz School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 771	Posted - 2013.06.01 16:00:00 - [10] - Quote + Op is forgetting the +2% dmg increase from T2 Guns specialization, T2 long and short range ammo that cover 90% of needs for pvp in range and performance requirements terms. (Faction AM being vital for rails as EMP/Hail is for autos/arty or scorch/Faction multi for lasers) If this is about PVE then forget my comment, even thou T2 guns with faction ammo is still much better as it should be. Faction guns are good enough for players not willing to spend time training T2 specs. I think I still got 8 800mm RF autos in some hangar somewhere from a couple years, not ready to ever use them even on a pimpy faction ship over T2 ones, no way. removed inappropriate ASCII art signature - CCP Eterne
Throktar Deep Core Mining Inc. 20	Posted - 2013.06.01 17:26:00 - [11] - Quote The only time I prefer faction guns is when using Imperial navy tachs on a Paladin. You lose about 40 dps if I remember but gain so much in cap that you free up another slot. I use 2 tracking computers and a target painter in the mids, and that ship will kill anything at any range except frigs under 15k.
MeBiatch Republic University Minmatar Republic 1054	Posted - 2013.06.01 17:57:00 - [12] - Quote it would be really cool if you could use invention to make tech II faction guns... Ok, so you've corrected my spelling,do you care to make a valid point? -áThere are no stupid Questions... just stupid people...
Destination SkillQueue Are We There Yet 5112	Posted - 2013.06.01 18:29:00 - [13] - Quote MeBiatch wrote: it would be really cool if you could use invention to make tech II faction guns... +æothing against that, but it still leaves the problem of less then stellar faction weapon systems. The module system in general could use some tiericide love from the devs, so their desirability wouldn't be limited to a few fringe cases once you've got T2 trained.
Felsusguy SVER True Blood Unclaimed. 268	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:05:00 - [14] - Quote Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Op is forgetting the +2% dmg increase from T2 Guns specialization No, I'm not. Faction turrets have a larger damage modifier, so it almost evens out. Cable Udan wrote: lolz, I didn't know people still just looked at the big number in EFT and took that as the truth. Void is not better than CN AM unless you're shooting something bigger and slower than you. Oh and webs. Void has better range in some circumstances. I use it with my Ishkur. And, let me clear this up, I'm not saying faction turrets are better than tech II turrets entirely, I'm saying it is fairly well balanced and that people should stop whining about it. How droll.
Tsukino Stareine EVE University Ivy League 261	Posted - 2013.06.01 19:31:00 - [15] - Quote I don't think any faction weapons are worth using apart from IN tachyons and in very few circumstances: CN launchers.
Alticus C Bear University of Caille Gallente Federation 155	Posted - 2013.06.01 21:12:00 - [16] - Quote Felsusguy wrote: Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Op is forgetting the +2% dmg increase from T2 Guns specialization No, I'm not. Faction turrets have a larger damage modifier, so it almost evens out. Cable Udan wrote: lolz, I didn't know people still just looked at the big number in EFT and took that as the truth. Void is not better than CN AM unless you're shooting something bigger and slower than you. Oh and webs. Void has better range in some circumstances. I use it with my Ishkur. And, let me clear this up, I'm not saying faction turrets are better than tech II turrets entirely, I'm saying it is fairly well balanced and that people should stop whining about it. Have you compared them to meta 4 weapons? Modal blasters have the same cap draw but use even less CPU and have better optimal range meaning past a few km the damage is almost the same.
Liltha Lost My Way Enterprises 13	Posted - 2013.06.01 21:24:00 - [17] - Quote Something must be off in my math then, because with the same ammo at full skills I get better damage and range with tech2 guns (some of the most important stats on weapons) in trade for a bit higher cap usage and powergrid fitting. If void is used the range goes up for optimal and drops off for falloff, loses some tracking but gains even more dps, so more tradeoffs there but still arguements could be made for it being "better" still. If we go with tech 2 ammo vs Faction ammo lets go to the far end of the spectrum, where null yeilds more range and around twice the damage in exchange for tracking and a larger increase in cap usage. Now those may be breaking points for some people but it does highlight a good reason people like tech 2 guns over the faction ones. (Note the differences between faction iron in the two guns is quite small, nowhere near as large as the difference between faction antimatter for short) All this for the low low price of 54mil per Fed Navy Light Neutron Blaster vs around 1mil per Tech 2 light neutron blaster. Which is where the breaking point would be for me I think, do I really want to drop that much on frigate guns to basically pull even at best?
Zhilia Mann Tide Way Out Productions 1248	Posted - 2013.06.01 22:10:00 - [18] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: I don't think any faction weapons are worth using apart from IN tachyons and in very few circumstances: CN launchers. You can eke out slightly better performance from a beam Slicer using IN guns -- but that winds up being so insanely fringe it's probably not worth discussing. Short range faction weapons are pretty much never worthwhile. Pulses need Scorch, ACs need Barrage, HAMs and torpedos need Javelin. Whether you want to use blasters without Void or Null seems dubious, and there are certainly times you'd very much want Javelin rockets as well. So right there you can eliminate half of all faction weapons. On the long range side you have to look at what you're trading off. For artillery you get -5% rate or fire. Which... isn't as good as the spec skill under any circumstances unless you actually want lower alpha for some ridiculous reason? I mean, why are you fitting artillery in the first place? Slightly lower fitting, so I guess that's good for RF/Domination. But honestly, artillery just isn't as hard to fit as it used to be. Rails are interesting because at least CN/DG rails do something that T2 just don't: they have every so slightly longer range (8.3% more to be exact). But CN/DG are stuck with the same damage mod as meta 4. FN/SS get the same range as T2 but have a crappy damage increase instead, meaning spec-trained T2 is always better. Again, faction guns get a slight fitting advantage (up to 14% with CN/DG) so there's that. FN/SS don't look so good at with a 4.8% fitting advantage though. Both versions also get a 20% break on cap consumption compared to T2. So maybe, just maybe, there's a mediumish range sniper fit that doesn't need to take advantage of Spike's insane range that could benefit from CN/DG rails to bump its range and maybe fit a bit more tank. It might exist. I'm not sure I'd say the same for FN/SS rails. So that leaves beams and long range missiles. As noted, CN launchers have two benefits: higher RoF (and hence DPS) regardless of spec level and higher capacity. If you're not going to use anything but faction ammo these are actually nice to have. Beams are a bit ambiguous still, but in the case of very high cap draw tachs, the 25% reduction for faction guns can make a difference. But honestly, why weren't you fitting a cap booster in the first place? Still, combined with the reduced CPU (where Amarr ships tend to be short anyhow), tachs can be worthwhile, as can smaller beams under the right circumstances. Overall, I'd say there's plenty left to be desired in faction weapons. Short range guns and missiles will never pull even with T2 without being able to use T2 ammo. That's an absolute deal-breaker. However, just allowing T2 ammo would actually significantly break T2 short (and long) range launchers, making them absolute monsters with their inherent RoF bonus, so that might need some tweaking. If the best benefits of CN/DG and FN/SS rails were combined, they might make an interesting alternative to T2 even without access to T2 ammo. Faction artillery would need some serious help in any case.
Bleichrodt Broken Wheel Mercantile and Trading Company Illusion of Solitude 8	Posted - 2013.06.02 12:58:00 - [19] - Quote Tsukino Stareine wrote: Because people don't use void on blasters they use null or anti. Lawl..go back to 2008
Frostys Virpio Lame Corp Name 421	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:11:00 - [20] - Quote Make faction better than T2 and require a T2 piece to buy insetad of the T1 one. Then at least the ******** cost will have a reason to exist...
Omnathious Deninard The Scope Gallente Federation 1123	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:15:00 - [21] - Quote I for one have always seen the functionality of faction weapons is just fine. The cost on the other hand is way out of balance and needs to be adjusted IMO they should cost 4~5 times what it takes to make T2 Ideas for Drone Improvement-á
Dato Koppla Rage of Inferno Malefic Motives 220	Posted - 2013.06.03 14:46:00 - [22] - Quote Yeah it can fit a niche sometimes but the cost is just so high for not too much benefit and significant drawbacks (no t2 ammo) that it's almost never warranted except for the uninformed or in some very specific cases like the Nightmare with factions Tachs as it helps free up slots that would be used for cap mods with T2 thus making it potentially better, also T2 beam ammo sucks, however it costs so much that I ran T2 Tachs with my Nightmare as I simply didn't want to spent that much.
mama guru Thundercats The Initiative. 128	Posted - 2013.06.03 16:37:00 - [23] - Quote Bleichrodt wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: Because people don't use void on blasters they use null or anti. Lawl..go back to 2008 Aww. Null or faction antimatter. If you don't know why you have no buisness flying a blaster frig. Keep some void in cargo for the AFK cruiser you might run into, but otherwise it's a waste. ______ EVE online is the fishermans friend of MMO's. If it's too hard you are too weak.
SilentStryder Aliastra Gallente Federation 6	Posted - 2013.06.04 01:04:00 - [24] - Quote mama guru wrote: Bleichrodt wrote: Tsukino Stareine wrote: Because people don't use void on blasters they use null or anti. Lawl..go back to 2008 Aww. Null or faction antimatter. If you don't know why you have no buisness flying a blaster frig. Keep some void in cargo for the AFK cruiser you might run into, but otherwise it's a waste. Yeah I thought Void would work better on Daigan, but I ended up doing better damage with Antimatter, I thought for sure Void would do better damage, Daigan being in a NPC Gnosis and me being in a Enyo but it wasn't to be... Player: EVE Online, Capsuleer, hunger games enthusiast.
Josilin du Guesclin University of Caille Gallente Federation 73	Posted - 2013.06.04 06:11:00 - [25] - Quote Felsusguy wrote: Aside from that, I did the comparisons, and it is quite clear to me that with the same ammunition, faction turrets are superior to tech II turrets. Thus, I did a second comparison that held both in their most favorable lights. Faction has easier fitting and better damage, but worse range, assuming identical ammo - when looking at blasters. Consider that blasters have terrible range, and thus inferior range is likely to wipe out the DPS advantage because of inability to apply the 'paper DPS'. Amusingly, you selected the weapon system where faction weapons have the worst stats, comparatively - for most weapons the faction ones simply have better damage/RoF, better fittings, and no drawbacks in their stats. The big thing is that faction weapons are very expensive and can't use T2 ammo. For pulse lasers, in particular, this is a show-stopper.
Barrogh Habalu Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire 467	Posted - 2013.06.04 06:16:00 - [26] - Quote Kasutra wrote: To be fair, this does lead to faction guns sometimes being used in favor of T2, when the T2 ammo isn't good/required. I think the Nightmare (with faction tachs) is the only example I've seen in real space, but sure, it's an advantage. Just not one that's relevant enough. Important factor is that Nightmare only has 4 turret slots to fill, otherwise the cost of faction guns would make it pretty unreasonable, especially now that cap consumption of all tachs has been dropped by 20% and isn't that taxing anymore.
Ultim8Evil Stargate SG-1 Fatal Ascension 55	Posted - 2013.06.04 07:58:00 - [27] - Quote Felsusguy wrote: Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: Op is forgetting the +2% dmg increase from T2 Guns specialization No, I'm not. Faction turrets have a larger damage modifier, so it almost evens out. Once you have [insert weapon type] Specialisation at or greater than level 3, T2 turrets do more damage than Faction. And who keeps a Weapon Specialisation skill at 1 or 2? EDIT: Didn't see the post already explaining this
Leper ofBacon HELP GRANDMA SMASH HER LEGS IN 20	Posted - 2013.06.04 08:04:00 - [28] - Quote The argument is completely null because it doesn't make any sense at all to buy faction guns for pvp due to the price. For PVE who cares.
Ultim8Evil Stargate SG-1 Fatal Ascension 55	Posted - 2013.06.04 13:29:00 - [29] - Quote Leper ofBacon wrote: The argument is completely null because it doesn't make any sense at all to buy faction guns for pvp due to the price. For PVE who cares. An active-tanked PvP Nightmare would like a word with you about your (incorrect) statement.

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