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Lusty Wench
Nox Incurro
12
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Posted - 2013.06.06 05:15:00 -
[31] - Quote
QT McWhiskers wrote:This is true. Before hand it would take someone between 4-8 seconds to find the new sig. Now, they have A WHOLE 4 SECONDS to react to the new sig and locate it. And as The Doctor has said. You can do a lot in 4 seconds.
I honestly dont see what the fuss is all about. Its literally 4-8 seconds of early warning. I dont care how good you are, You are not going to find site runners, get your fleet ready on in the hole, AND warp on top of them in 8 seconds. Its just not possible. If they are paying attention, then you have almost exactly the same chance to find and kill them as before. If they arent, then you get the kill anyways.
And if its caps in a site, then you have exactly the same amount of time as you had before. Their siege or triage timer.
No....they have MUCH more time.
The sig spawns in the destination system as you initiate warp to your side of it. The new sig is now on their screen. You're in warp to the hole, on your side. You jump through the hole. Session change. New hole loads. Scanner runs.
They've been POS'd up for about a minute already. |
Lusty Wench
Nox Incurro
12
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Posted - 2013.06.06 05:19:00 -
[32] - Quote
Durzel wrote:Nix Anteris wrote:Now they are able to be notified automatically, much the same as you see a new ship landing by way of your overview, they see new signatures appear on the scanner. If you have already ignored all signatures in a system, it's still very easy to notice the UI change out of the corner of your eye even if you're not paying attention directly to your scanner window. There's a very good chance they won't even see it most of the time. They would have to be looking in the right direction when it spawns, which optimistically is 180 degrees but more like a cone of about 90. I would suspect that anyone relying on the overlay to identify new sigs instead of having probes out as before will be living under a false sense of security.
You don't need probes man, or be looking in the right direction. Just have your probe scanner window open. |
Lusty Wench
Nox Incurro
12
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Posted - 2013.06.06 05:27:00 -
[33] - Quote
It's worse than local, in that you're notified about incoming ships before they even hit the system.
Local + 1 jump range.
It's also easily scriptable with even the most rudimentary pixel watch script. Oh this window has changed colours, I better play a sound...
It's probably not even against the EULA if you don't input to the client. |
Euthanasia Anneto
Embers Children TOHA Conglomerate
10
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Posted - 2013.06.06 05:30:00 -
[34] - Quote
Lusty Wench wrote:Just have your probe scanner window open. That's all need, just keeping the scanner window open and when a new red flashy rectangle gets on screen, only refresh the filter or opt-in/out the anomalies filter. You don't have to refresh dscan. Also, you don't need probe scanner fitted. |
Svodola Darkfury
Heaven's End League of Infamy
190
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Posted - 2013.06.06 06:47:00 -
[35] - Quote
Nathan Jameson wrote:I dislike the change as well, but not because it amounts to an even-easier early-warning system. It's because it's even easier to program farming bots around it now. New sig = new face in local.
Excellent point Nathan.
I've still been able to catch a few kills though because there seem to be more people than ever farming with K162s already open in their wormhole. And to be honest, the people who are smart enough to use the overlay/sig list as a deterrent were probably the ones already with probes out watching for new sigs. I'm not a fan of it being completely automatic, but I don't think it's the end of the world either.
Svo. CEO of Heaven's End; Seller of Wormholes. |
Rek Seven
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
731
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Posted - 2013.06.06 10:55:00 -
[36] - Quote
Of course it's not the end of the world, we're talking about a video game but should people have put a little effort into gathering intel?! Jesus feature?! what Jesus? How about you just give us 'a' new feature CCP. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
125
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Posted - 2013.06.06 21:58:00 -
[37] - Quote
I think that the current system is fairly well balanced.
Miners have basically lost the ability to solo mine with a hole open, which was always kind of suicidal before anyway--telling yourself you'd be guaranteed to catch probes on dscan was just asking for trouble. This kills solo mining as a major source of income in C1s unless you've got alts (due to the annoyance of collapsing C1 holes). It possibly reduces targets for gankers to find, due to fewer people mining with holes open.
The main risk to miners is that if they stop paying attention for even a minute (and it's very easy to stop paying attention while you're mining) anyone can find and kill them even without probes.
As evidenced by people still getting kills in the last few days, there will still be targets who fail to understand the system and end up dying anyway. Attentive miners will be able to get out before getting attacked.
The problem with removing the instant intel and keeping grav sites as anomalies is that mining really will die in WHs then--the risk will be too high, since there will be absolutely zero warning for miners. Sure, there will still be fools who do it anyway and die, but those same fools are still going to screw up the current system and die. |
Anti-social Tendencies
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
28
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Posted - 2013.06.06 23:37:00 -
[38] - Quote
Nix Anteris wrote:I'm sure the carebears are loving their new early warning system.
How have other peoples experiences been so far? Finding less people in space than usual?
It feels like this is going to be a pain for people who farm their static for tears and corpses.
Unless you collapse all wh's before running sites or mining (not always practical), you still have to put out a combat probe and monitor it, plus spamming ds constantly. So it really doesn't make it that much easier.
The biggest problem is the nerf to WH mining by moving the grav sites to the new ore anomalies. It makes wh mining a dead profession. "Patience: n, a minor form of despair, disguised as a virtue." - AMBROSE PIERCE |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
125
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Posted - 2013.06.07 01:47:00 -
[39] - Quote
Anti-social Tendencies wrote: Unless you collapse all wh's before running sites or mining (not always practical), you still have to put out a combat probe and monitor it, plus spamming ds constantly. So it really doesn't make it that much easier.
The biggest problem is the nerf to WH mining by moving the grav sites to the new ore anomalies. It makes wh mining a dead profession.
WH mining is only dead if you're solo in a C1. All other wormholes can easily collapse their static and keep and eye out for new sigs while mining in relative safety. |
Nix Anteris
Bite Me inc Bitten.
46
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Posted - 2013.06.07 08:51:00 -
[40] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:I think that the current system is fairly well balanced. We'll have to agree to disagree.
Wormholes are supposed to theoretically be the most dangerous space, right? Even the least difficult wormholes are flagged as -1.0 security, no gates, no local, no stations. Can we agree on that, the fact they are supposed to be the most hostile places to operate in?
The tears of the solo miner revolve around the fact that in most cases it is not feasible for them to secure a system before beginning their operation, the fact that they "cannot be safe in wormholes". I'd say that is empirically part of the design and that groups of people who organise proper operations will invest the time to secure a system beforehand to limit their risk.
This boils down to "It's hard to solo in the most hostile place in EVE", and to be honest I have little sympathy for the anti-social wormholer or opportunistic daytripper if they do not take the appropriate amount of precaution. The risk to a solo miner who does not take these precautions is high, and the reward is the ability to get the high end nullsec quality ores (with their Odyssey recomposition) a single jump from highsec if they choose, and the ability to escape back to relatively risk free space within a single jump whenever they want.
Anti-social Tendencies wrote:The biggest problem is the nerf to WH mining by moving the grav sites to the new ore anomalies. It makes wh mining a dead profession.
May I remind you that people who solo combat anomalies in low class wormholes have been dealing with the same issue for the last 4 years. They take the same risk as the miners, but they haven't ever really complained about it on a large scale, that's because it has always been that way.
Its natural to be resistant to change when you are set in a certain way of doing things (you could even accuse me of doing the same thing right now), however I consider this change fundamentally game-breaking for PVP focused groups who hunt in the class of wormholes where people do secure their systems before beginning an operation. These groups rely on the element of surprise and the complacancy or laziness of their targets not hitting the scanners often enough. This element of surprise has literally been taken away.
One of the big discussions between wormhole communities at fanfest this year was "What can we do to create more conflict drivers in wormholes?", what can we do to encourage more combat. This does the exact opposite and makes it easier for people to avoid combat, I feel it is completely against the spirit of the environment. |
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Vicentino
Frozen Dawn Inc Arctic Light
0
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Posted - 2013.06.07 17:23:00 -
[41] - Quote
The fact that you can see WH sig appearing in your overlay immediately is game breaking design. In fact it is sort of silly you see same stuff regardless of ship you are in. I'm sure e.g. dreads were not designed for exploration.
The whole design to show the signatures the way they are shown was justified by the statement that it brings exploration visible to the players. I fully disagree with this design reasoning. I do not get what it has to do with exploration that you see all the exploration options once you enter the system
I'm pretty sure Mr. Columbus did not see North American continent in his overlay view.
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Indo Nira
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Polarized.
76
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Posted - 2013.06.07 17:34:00 -
[42] - Quote
Well.... all i see is ganking being a little bit harder. I wanna see the dreads / archons / t3s warp out of the anoms their running while scrammed / in siege. Or maybe the end of rolling the static for pew... might have to scan the enemies' static and jumping into it and ganking from there...
VoC lost 44 bil worth of ships that way yesterday. http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=34552
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Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1275
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 00:24:00 -
[43] - Quote
Terrorfrodo wrote:Nathan Jameson wrote:I dislike the change as well, but not because it amounts to an even-easier early-warning system. It's because it's even easier to program farming bots around it now. New sig = new face in local. Although if we could somehow identify people using such a bot, I'd be willing to log out in their system... Anyway I don't think botting is viable in w-space combat sites, only for mining. I've never seen someone in w-space who acted like it was a bot.
W-space is not ideal for botting....that is true. But with instant intel (discovery scanner), it is possible now because it's range is infinite and if you know what sigs you have and you only have one static, it's not hard to close it. With the static closed, any new sig can be assumed to be a wh, instant warp to pos.
I saw some russians....very late US TZ moving moving multiple toons in/out of our hole from a C4. The idea that they might be botting was keen on my mind as 7 at a time would simultaneously jump the wh from the c4 to our system and simultaneously warp to our hs jump. Prolly just multiboxers. But with the discovery scanner....who knows? Maybe they gave it a shot and couldn't make it hands off enough to make it work. *shrugs* HTFU!...for the children! |
Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2089
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 02:28:00 -
[44] - Quote
i hate it. that said, I did have a good chuckle when i found a miner in a system with only 1 ore site. (that's still a stupid change too.) |
Nix Anteris
Bite Me inc Bitten.
69
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Posted - 2013.07.05 06:46:00 -
[45] - Quote
Mr Kidd wrote:With the static closed, any new sig can be assumed to be a wh No it can't.
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Van Kuzco
Stryker Industries Ocularis Inferno
70
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Posted - 2013.07.05 07:18:00 -
[46] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I have told CCP that it is big issue for wormhole people.
They should just stop auto update in wormholes or put a 30-60 minute delay on all new signatures in wormholes. This should be trivially easy for them to implement. |
Van Kuzco
Stryker Industries Ocularis Inferno
70
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 07:25:00 -
[47] - Quote
Nix Anteris wrote:Mr Kidd wrote:With the static closed, any new sig can be assumed to be a wh No it can't.
No, but you treat it as such until it is actually scanned down. |
Nathan Jameson
Grumpy Bastards Mass Overload
1393
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 08:35:00 -
[48] - Quote
There have been recorded cases of wormholes not immediately appearing on the discovery cheaty mccheat scanner, giving gankers a period of time to pick off targets, but these have been nowhere often enough.
I'd prefer new wormholes not showing up even on probe results for at least ten minutes. http://www.wormholes.info |
Random Woman
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
51
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Posted - 2013.07.05 09:15:00 -
[49] - Quote
Chris Winter wrote:Chitsa Jason wrote:I have told CCP that it is big issue for wormhole people. It's balanced the way it is. Hunters get faster probing and no need to probe for grav sites. Potential victims get warning, if they know what they're doing. Give it a few months to see how things shake out. Without the early warning, mining in WHs will be truly dead.
I think most ppl could care less about mining in WHs it's always been **** and always will be **** as long as CCP doenst improves the refining arrays with some common sense(tm).
Knowing CCP, this wont never happen. Lets face it, they are plain incompetent with everything even remotly conected to the POS system, or common sense(tm) .
The stupid systemscanner makes it almost impossible to jump cap escalation farming fleets unless you are rage rolling with a 30+ ppl fleet. So you can smash in there right away.
The system Scanner destroyed the entire watch/hide game for WHs.
It was good before, ppl were able to spot new signatures, like now, but they had to put effort into it, now they get that information for free, rubbed into their face.
While the sneak up faction had time to asses the sitiuation before and plan. Now its just about being fast and have a lot of brute force at your disposal. Destroyed the entire, hopefully nobody has seen me game.
Eve Online Odyssey - successully removing the exploration bits from exploration. |
Van Kuzco
Stryker Industries Ocularis Inferno
70
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 11:11:00 -
[50] - Quote
Nathan Jameson wrote:There have been recorded cases of wormholes not immediately appearing on the discovery cheaty mccheat scanner, giving gankers a period of time to pick off targets, but these have been nowhere often enough.
I'd prefer new wormholes not showing up even on probe results for at least ten minutes.
I'm glad a lot of us are on the same page. Although they should bring back deep space probes so we can actually check for new sigs manually if we choose. |
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Jack Miton
Semper Ubi Sub Ubi
2092
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 11:20:00 -
[51] - Quote
Van Kuzco wrote:I'm glad a lot of us are on the same page. Although they should bring back deep space probes so we can actually check for new sigs manually if we choose. omfg would you people get over dsps? they do NOTHING combat probes dont do, move the fk on to real issues. |
Ellariona
Bite Me inc Bitten.
131
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Posted - 2013.07.05 16:00:00 -
[52] - Quote
Lusty Wench wrote:QT McWhiskers wrote:This is true. Before hand it would take someone between 4-8 seconds to find the new sig. Now, they have A WHOLE 4 SECONDS to react to the new sig and locate it. And as The Doctor has said. You can do a lot in 4 seconds.
I honestly dont see what the fuss is all about. Its literally 4-8 seconds of early warning. I dont care how good you are, You are not going to find site runners, get your fleet ready on in the hole, AND warp on top of them in 8 seconds. Its just not possible. If they are paying attention, then you have almost exactly the same chance to find and kill them as before. If they arent, then you get the kill anyways.
And if its caps in a site, then you have exactly the same amount of time as you had before. Their siege or triage timer. No....they have MUCH more time. The sig spawns in the destination system as you initiate warp to your side of it. The new sig is now on their screen. You're in warp to the hole, on your side. You jump through the hole. Session change. New hole loads. Scanner runs. They've been POS'd up for about a minute already.
^THIS
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Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
153
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Posted - 2013.07.05 16:01:00 -
[53] - Quote
Having it on a delay, combined with ore sites being anoms, will turn miners into free food for anyone who comes along. There's nothing the miner can do to protect themselves. At least before Odyssey, constant use of dscan gave you the opportunity to see probes out looking for you.
Mining in WHs will slowly cease to exist with this change as people discover that they can be ganked with little effort by any and all.
Random Woman wrote: I think most ppl could care less about mining in WHs it's always been **** and always will be **** as long as CCP doenst improves the refining arrays with some common sense(tm).
Knowing CCP, this will never happen. Lets face it, they are plain incompetent with everything even remotly conected to the POS system, or common sense(tm) .
Mining in WHs is actually quite lucrative, especially for larger groups. Serious mining groups will build a rorq to skip the **** POS refine; more casual groups still make a decent profit even with a 30% hit. |
Yokomaki
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2013.07.05 17:25:00 -
[54] - Quote
Chitsa Jason wrote:I have told CCP that it is big issue for wormhole people.
-1
Whoa whoa, you mean its a big issue for large PvP alliance WH people right? Aren't large PvP alliances still the minority in WH space? Even if you don't like carebears aren't they still the majority and wouldn't they likely have a different opinion than the large pvp alliances that want to sneak in and kill them?
I voted for you but I don't agree with this. I don't carebear much but I enjoy being able to see all the sigs when I enter the system because when you are a small corp and trying to scan down a chain with only 1 or 2 people this is a time saver. Most corps don't have 20 people working to scan down all the chains.
I also LIKE the ability to see new sigs pop up in my scanner when I'm in my home system.
Please make sure you take all WH dwellers into account instead of blanketing everyone with you and your buddies opinions. |
Yokomaki
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2013.07.05 17:31:00 -
[55] - Quote
Random Woman wrote: The stupid systemscanner makes it almost impossible to jump cap escalation farming fleets unless you are rage rolling with a 30+ ppl fleet. So you can smash in there right away.
Holy tears. If someone wasn't constantly probing while in their escalation gangs and you had time to form a fleet and then warp in on them, they likely aren't going to be on the ball with the new system either. So a new sig pops up, if they are as bad as the people that don't constantly probe you have the same chance of catching them as before. Now you can even point your dscan at the anoms in system view and find them super fast. On top of that they aren't going anywhere while in Siege/Triage so you have roughly the same time period as before.
Stop QQing and change your tactics holy smokes. |
Nix Anteris
Bite Me inc Bitten.
74
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Posted - 2013.07.05 17:49:00 -
[56] - Quote
This is the security status of the system you want to live in.
Yokomaki wrote:I also LIKE the ability to see new sigs pop up in my scanner when I'm in my home system. This is you trying to be safe in what is supposed to be the most hostile and unforgiving space in game.
Yokomaki wrote:Please make sure you take all WH dwellers into account instead of blanketing everyone with you and your buddies opinions. Actually it's taking into account the spirit of wormholes as they were when they were introduced, not the carebear haven they have become. |
Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
17
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Posted - 2013.07.05 18:00:00 -
[57] - Quote
Yokomaki wrote:Chitsa Jason wrote:I have told CCP that it is big issue for wormhole people. -1 Whoa whoa, you mean its a big issue for large PvP alliance WH people right? Aren't large PvP alliances still the minority in WH space? Even if you don't like carebears aren't they still the majority and wouldn't they likely have a different opinion than the large pvp alliances that want to sneak in and kill them? I voted for you but I don't agree with this. I don't carebear much but I enjoy being able to see all the sigs when I enter the system because when you are a small corp and trying to scan down a chain with only 1 or 2 people this is a time saver. Most corps don't have 20 people working to scan down all the chains. I also LIKE the ability to see new sigs pop up in my scanner when I'm in my home system. Please make sure you take all WH dwellers into account instead of blanketing everyone with you and your buddies opinions.
I am in a minute WH corp and I still strongly dislike the new changes. Even when I am running sites in our hole. It's too damn safe! Sec status -1 should be dangerous, not a printing-press for ISK. And you can bet your ass that will be next. "Why should w-space be so lucrative when it's so safe?"
For me w-space have always (since my fourth day in Eve) been the great unknown. The danger lurking just under the surface. I say this both as a receiver and giver of unsuspected attacks.
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Bjurn Akely
Knights of Nii The 20 Minuters
17
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Posted - 2013.07.05 18:03:00 -
[58] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Van Kuzco wrote:I'm glad a lot of us are on the same page. Although they should bring back deep space probes so we can actually check for new sigs manually if we choose. omfg would you people get over dsps? they do NOTHING combat probes dont do, move the fk on to real issues.
I don't think you realized how good DSP's where in some regards. With their huge scanning volume it was very easy to have them out far far far away from any point withing the solar system they monitored. This is a huge bonus in systems that are large, say around 140 AU as my current home.
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Yokomaki
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
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Posted - 2013.07.05 18:12:00 -
[59] - Quote
I'm definitely not trying to be safe. We moved into wormholes because of the risk involved not the ISK. We are bad at making money. We are new dudes but we DO go looking for non-suicide fights all the time. We have roughly a 4 hour primetime and at least an hour of it is spent scanning the chain. WIth your mega-alliance you could scan the same chain down in probably 10 minutes. Your argument is basically "join the blob or stay within a few jumps of your system or expand your playtime".
The system scanner and sig changes make traversing through the chain easier for the little people. Since we can't put a cloaky in every system in our chain or have 5 people constantly up and down the chain looking for targets, having the sigs instantly appear (and roughly what planets they are at) shaves a few minutes off the process for each system. It also means when we come back through the system we can quickly check siggy against the system scanner to see if any new sigs appeared while we warp to the next hole.
To some old vets that have done it this way for years this may suck, but this is polish to an archaic system to some of us. Trying to catch players in escalation sites is a EXTREME minority of WH population. |
Yokomaki
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
11
|
Posted - 2013.07.05 18:16:00 -
[60] - Quote
Indo Nira wrote:Well.... all i see is ganking being a little bit harder. I wanna see the dreads / archons / t3s warp out of the anoms their running while scrammed / in siege. Or maybe the end of rolling the static for pew... might have to scan the enemies' static and jumping into it and ganking from there... VoC lost 44 bil worth of ships that way yesterday. http://kb.vergeofcollapse.com/?a=kill_related&kll_id=34552
Exactly. Siege and Triage modules didn't get a reduced cooldown and the sleepers didn't stop scramming. |
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