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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
roBurky
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Posted - 2005.11.08 09:15:00 -
[31]
I think the thoughts about non-sustainable tanks are valid concerns. Already at the moment, most people will only fit for sustainable cap rather than one that will simply last long enough. With battles lasting longer, this trend will increase.
I think maybe that cap batteries should get a boost along with this. Make outliving the other guys' cap continue to be a valid tactic after the change.
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Arshes Nei
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Posted - 2005.11.08 09:23:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: Testy Mctest
This is not a balanced change. A good idea, but not balanced. Only one person in this thread so far has pointed out and seems to understand that +25% hp ship with higher resistances is better than +25% hp on a normal ship. A T2 ship, or a heavy tanked ship, benefits a lot more from this change than others.
**Minmatar Whine Alert**
This is a massive Minmatar nerf; having the lowest DoT was already an issue, now it's just become (at least) 25% more of an issue. In addition to the fact, we're the race least capable of running a decent battleship tank, so we gain the least in terms of survivability. Combine with the upcoming Vigil and Rifter nerfs.....rearrange "a kicking down man he's when" into a commonly known phrase.
Yes it is true that tech 2 ships with high resistances get more out of a flat HP increase than ships with less resistances, but as thoses tech 1 ships already get some love with MK2 project i think thats ok.
Besides i and maybe some other people like to run sustainable tanks on our HACs/AFs(its just to embarassing to die cause you run out of cap for your booster/rep), so i for one will get nothing out of this(well a tiny boost to passive shield recharge ...). This particular change really seems to be more about Alpha strike survivability than about prolonging combats(which usually end cause of cap, atleast for me).
Minmatar though might need some sort of attention, their artys dont really deserve any kind of even indirect nerf ... Its not like they have much going for them, apart from a nice alpha strike.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.08 09:56:00 -
[33]
Originally by: DigitalCommunist
Edited by: DigitalCommunist on 08/11/2005 01:34:21
One wonders with you finding flaws in everything CCP do, why you even tolerate playing such a blasphemously incorrect game.
A flat 25% hp boost is just going to make you last a little bit longer. It doesn't change anything.
Its the same as CCP taking every weapon in the game and nerfing the damage output by 25%.. except, less whiny.
DC dont tell people that again, cause its wrong.
Let me do some math for you, quite simple you will understand:
Lets take an Apoc:
after the patch it has:
6000 Armor
4969 Shield
7437.5 Structure
Total: 18406.5 HP
With skills:
7500 Armor
6211 Shield
9296 Structure
Total: 23007 HP
before the patch it had:
4800 Armor
3975 Shield
5950 Structure
Total: 14725 HP
With skills: 18406.5 HP
HP gain:
without skills: 3681.5
with skills: 4600.5
Tempest:
after patch:
5563 shield
4969 armor
7437.5 structure
Total: 17969.5
with skills:
6954 Shield
6211 Armor
9296 structure
Total: 22461 HP
before patch:
4450 Shield
3950 Armor
5950 Structure
Total:
without skills: 14350
with skills: 17969.5
Before the patch the difference was only 437 HP including skills, now it will be 546. Not much, but dont forget the Apoc gains a lot in tankable HP!
Now my point, if you would reduce the DPS from a 600 DPS ship like the Tempest down to 75%, you would loose 150 DPS.
If you would do the same with the geddon and its 1200 DPS you would loose 300 DPS. The difference between the ships would become smaller then its not 600 anymore its 450 now!
So basicly you can say, the winner from a DPS decrease would be the raven and the tempest, since thy arent that far behind the other ships anymore, the winner from an HP increase are the HP heavy ships, like Apoc/Raven.
Sadly for this game people cant the the diffence between absolut numbers and relative numbers. Relative increases help the strong, absolut numbers help the weak.
In RL you could say to someone with 2 million $$ that he would get 5% of his money as a present, he would earn 100k %%, somone with only 5k $$ would get whooping 250 $$. Thats just not the same 
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.08 09:59:00 -
[34]
ohh and alpha strike will become more and more useless, since you cant insta kill shields and armor anymore on a untanked BS, before you could kill a geddon in 4 volley when your lucky, that were 35.52 seconds, not it wont be possible anymore and you have to do about 6 volleys, thats 52.8 seconds.
So basicly the geddons wins 17.28 seconds where he can use his supperios DPS to vaporize the Tempest (damage in this time is about 10368 in favour of the geddon)
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Oveur
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Posted - 2005.11.08 09:59:00 -
[35]
Originally by: O'Sirius
I don't like it cause they're boosing NPC hp cause of it. Making missions and complexes take longer.
No, certain NPC's are getting a HP boost because there are fewer of them in each group. Fewer, but harder.
Senior Producer
EVE Online |
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Oveur
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Posted - 2005.11.08 10:09:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Nafri
ohh and alpha strike will become more and more useless, since you cant insta kill shields and armor anymore on a untanked BS, before you could kill a geddon in 4 volley when your lucky, that were 35.52 seconds, not it wont be possible anymore and you have to do about 6 volleys, thats 52.8 seconds.
So basicly the geddons wins 17.28 seconds where he can use his supperios DPS to vaporize the Tempest (damage in this time is about 10368 in favour of the geddon)
Wait, did I get your calculation right, an alpha strike now takes 52.8 seconds to take out a Battleship instead of 35.52 second? Looks like we're right on track 
It's also unusual for you to over-simplify a combat situation like that. There is no such thing as two ships, equally fitted, with equal skills, both being at optimal/transversal of each other and both having their optimal tank.
I'd like to see more factors into this, like ... how would you position and fit a tempest for an alpha strike capability?
Senior Producer
EVE Online |
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LWMaverick
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Posted - 2005.11.08 10:15:00 -
[37]
Longer fights YAY... i like it!
/Mav
With great power, comes great responsibility. |
Juan Andalusian
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Posted - 2005.11.08 10:35:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Nafri
Sadly for this game people cant the the diffence between absolut numbers and relative numbers. Relative increases help the strong, absolut numbers help the weak.
Sadly for this game some people can't see the difference between numbers and actual game application.
**Pain is meant to be felt** |
Gronsak
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Posted - 2005.11.08 10:37:00 -
[39]
yay more time for me to gloat while im killing my enermys
fights are too short atm, with new boost to tanking (the new skills) and a hp increase hopefully we will see fights lasting longer.
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The Wizz117
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Posted - 2005.11.08 10:39:00 -
[40]
more hp less to kill longer battles
  dramaticly increase of the bounty needed!
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Denrace
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Posted - 2005.11.08 14:25:00 -
[41]
The other day I was ganked in my Sacrilege by a 2 Apocs and a Deimos.
The battle lasted about 10 seconds.
Was it fun? Not in the least. It sucked.
Longer combat is ace. Thanks CCP.
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Sub'Zero
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Posted - 2005.11.08 14:55:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Denrace
The other day I was ganked in my Sacrilege by a 2 Apocs and a Deimos.
The battle lasted about 10 seconds.
Was it fun? Not in the least. It sucked.
Longer combat is ace. Thanks CCP.
after patch if would have taken 12secs, yay for long battles
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.11.08 15:15:00 -
[43]
I like the changes.
It changes balance somewhat, but in a direction that I think is an improvement.
If you've more HPs, then there's more advantage to fitting resistance modifiers over damage modifiers.
It somewhat devalues extenders and plates (relatively) but in absolute terms they remain the same. 1000 hps, is still 1000hps. (leaving aside that I seem to recall that plates and extenders were up for 'adjustment' in their fitting reqs)
As it stands at the moment, in my opinion, far too many PvP fits rely on gank or oversized plates.
Wouldn't want to see them go entirely, but I _like_ my fights to last a bit longer. PvP is fun, but not when it's 'fly 20 hops. gankageddon fires at you. Fly back 20 hops for spare ship'.
OK, so if they're better then they'll probably still win, but at least you'll have a chance to lock them, fire back, get an armour repairer cycle, and maybe do _some_ damage to their gank rig.
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Remedial
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Posted - 2005.11.08 15:19:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Sub'Zero
after patch if would have taken 12secs, yay for long battles
No, he would have more time to:
1) Activate hardeners
2) Take EW countermeasures
3) Cycle his armor rep
4) Align for warp
5) Fire at and destroy a tackler
He might actually have lived had the circumstances been slightly different or he managed to EW the two apocs in those extra seconds.
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Sirokko
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Posted - 2005.11.08 15:19:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Sobeseki Pawi
Maya is just mad that 10 million isk ships wont be able to solo 120 million isk ships as easy. That is about the only thing I can gather.
Please, please tell me how to do this. 
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Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.11.08 15:28:00 -
[46]
I'm sorry is there some unwritten rule where 1400mm are supposed to 1 volley people to death or something?
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If Captain James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock embracing one another, in a bath tube, nude, in space, is wrong, I don't want to be right. |
Leneerra
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Posted - 2005.11.08 15:30:00 -
[47]
this if implemented will change the ballance between ships as not only cap death, but also positioning is a part of combat. Ships that rely heavely on positioning to kill will have more opertunity to get into that needed position.
As for ganking, where in the past for instance 4 ships took out a same size vessel in secconds, you now need 5.
Must either have missed the massive amout of whines the pirates posted about this, or could it be they are not that worried? Probeby that even with a 25% increase the frigates and haulers they mostly kill will continue to die to 1 salvo.. So now they will have to reload their 6th howitser as well sometimes, I doubt they care.
On seccond thought, they will have 25% more time to escape if a enemy traps them... I think they will care a lot..
And as it was so nicely stated by the Dev, these perfect conditions are so rare. It will be hard to prove the actuall differences we will get even though they can be so nicely described in general.
Please stop denying that a flat increase will not alter balance because it will. And with this poposed change the less well tankeble ships will receave the short end of this stick.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.08 15:45:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Nafri
ohh and alpha strike will become more and more useless, since you cant insta kill shields and armor anymore on a untanked BS, before you could kill a geddon in 4 volley when your lucky, that were 35.52 seconds, not it wont be possible anymore and you have to do about 6 volleys, thats 52.8 seconds.
So basicly the geddons wins 17.28 seconds where he can use his supperios DPS to vaporize the Tempest (damage in this time is about 10368 in favour of the geddon)
Wait, did I get your calculation right, an alpha strike now takes 52.8 seconds to take out a Battleship instead of 35.52 second? Looks like we're right on track
It's also unusual for you to over-simplify a combat situation like that. There is no such thing as two ships, equally fitted, with equal skills, both being at optimal/transversal of each other and both having their optimal tank.
I'd like to see more factors into this, like ... how would you position and fit a tempest for an alpha strike capability?
Pityfull answer oveur. We were talking about the advantage of volley damage vs constant DPS. The most guys in this forum (at least the one who can do math) can tell you what the advantage of Volley damage is.
1st: Your able to kill some ships before thy can lock you (frigates + cruisers mainly)
2nd: You have an advantage till the constant DPS reaches the damage of the one of your first volleys
Basicly if your improve HP, you move the line towards the ones which use constant DPS. If you cant see that I will make a exel sheet only for you...
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Foulis
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Posted - 2005.11.08 15:46:00 -
[49]
Quote:
and it screws over matari Confused
Remember Nafri, when in doubt a patch always screws over the matari
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.08 15:46:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
I'm sorry is there some unwritten rule where 1400mm are supposed to 1 volley people to death or something?
its just the legend that 1400 insta kill everything cause of the 2600 wreckings some people have in bio. more common is around 1000 damage optimal on unhardened targets. against a tanking target expect 300-400 max
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Kuningatar
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Posted - 2005.11.08 15:56:00 -
[51]
MY alpha strike is GONE and ITS not GOOD.
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Masu'di
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Posted - 2005.11.08 15:57:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Leneerra
this if implemented will change the ballance between ships as not only cap death, but also positioning is a part of combat. Ships that rely heavely on positioning to kill will have more opertunity to get into that needed position.
great point, and this will be the saviour of the Minmatar. More time, means more benefit from our speed advantage and so therefor better positioning. Better positioning with our good projectile fall offs will allow us to move out of the enemies optimal, without drastically decreasing our own damage dealing ability.
POS Drug Refinery |
Sub'Zero
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Posted - 2005.11.08 15:59:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Remedial
Originally by: Sub'Zero
after patch if would have taken 12secs, yay for long battles
No, he would have more time to:
1) Activate hardeners
2) Take EW countermeasures
3) Cycle his armor rep
4) Align for warp
5) Fire at and destroy a tackler
He might actually have lived had the circumstances been slightly different or he managed to EW the two apocs in those extra seconds.
not realy
he gained little ammount of HP, he could actuly have died in 10.01 sec instead, its hard to say as fire in eve aint constant
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.11.08 16:02:00 -
[54]
Oveur: How can developers seriously not understand their own game sometimes? it's a question I've never had an answer to, in any game I've played.
At the moment, you have races (arguably) balanced on a razor like so:
Amarr - Best tanks, Best dot weapons.
Gallente - Railguns fine, tanks fine. Drone changes great.
Caldari - Tanks fine, weapons messed up vs small targets.
Minmatar - Awful DoT, Great short term damage, no good tank.
You already have Minmatar at a stage where Min pilots are *forced* to be totally radical just to have a chance with most of their ships. Sure, they become good in a group situation, but a group of 5 Tempests vs a group of 5 anything else would still lose in a fight to the death.
Let me bold this bit up in case this thread hasnt made it clear.
Increasing tanking abilities benefits only tanking races. Increasing tanking abilities reduces the effectiveness of alpha strikes.
Now, this being said, was your intention with this patch. However, realise that it is a nerf to one race, a race that only has one realistic advantage to start with is now losing that advantage.
In the name of balance, please either change something, or let us know that you're working on something.
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.11.08 16:14:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Sub'Zero
not realy
he gained little ammount of HP, he could actuly have died in 10.01 sec instead, its hard to say as fire in eve aint constant
weirda is confused... nafri/testy/maya are all saying that the sacriledge (in this case) would get a MASSIVE dot advantage because of its superiour tanking and dot...
you are saying that there is only a 1% change in battle...
which is it?... oh neither because they are all amarr ships... 
and btw - a lot of things are coming in too... less 'ganka' (not as many dmg stack), more 'tanka' with passive skills... etc etc... things will change a lot.
weirda think for the better. weirda think smart pilots will win more, and stupid pilot with extreme 'cookie/forum' setup will win less. maybe that is what worries so many of you?
weirda see the math and the numbers and specialize matari.
weirda say BRING IT ON! fitting options will only improve.
the sad thing here is that someone made the leap (don't need a graph thank you nafri) that a becomes < b in this situation or that, and enough ppl jump on that bandwagon. guess what? it is a leap!
as for ppl saying they can't understand ccp not understanding their game, weirda can't understand the superiority complex that go on in some of these post. so many speak in these huge absolutes without 1 iota of evidence or practical application. if you could just plug every ship into a combat simulator - it wouldn't tell you ****... yet that is what everyone is doing to support their opinion! 
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.11.08 16:15:00 -
[56]
testy... you're just plain wrong. 
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Antic
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Posted - 2005.11.08 16:31:00 -
[57]
This longer combat thing is the right way to go imho. But one thing worries me. Shield tanks. Its not possible to make them sustainable the same way it is for armor tanks. So as high burst damage from alphas and the like is being diminished in usefulnes, so is high burst repair like shield tanks.
Anyone have any thoughts on this?
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Sub'Zero
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Posted - 2005.11.08 16:32:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Weirda
Originally by: Sub'Zero
not realy
he gained little ammount of HP, he could actuly have died in 10.01 sec instead, its hard to say as fire in eve aint constant
weirda is confused... nafri/testy/maya are all saying that the sacriledge (in this case) would get a MASSIVE dot advantage because of its superiour tanking and dot...
you are saying that there is only a 1% change in battle...
which is it?... oh neither because they are all amarr ships...
and btw - a lot of things are coming in too... less 'ganka' (not as many dmg stack), more 'tanka' with passive skills... etc etc... things will change a lot.
weirda think for the better. weirda think smart pilots will win more, and stupid pilot with extreme 'cookie/forum' setup will win less. maybe that is what worries so many of you?
weirda see the math and the numbers and specialize matari.
weirda say BRING IT ON! fitting options will only improve.
the sad thing here is that someone made the leap (don't need a graph thank you nafri) that a becomes < b in this situation or that, and enough ppl jump on that bandwagon. guess what? it is a leap!
as for ppl saying they can't understand ccp not understanding their game, weirda can't understand the superiority complex that go on in some of these post. so many speak in these huge absolutes without 1 iota of evidence or practical application. if you could just plug every ship into a combat simulator - it wouldn't tell you ****... yet that is what everyone is doing to support their opinion!
try to read ones more what I said, thx
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Santiac
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Posted - 2005.11.08 16:43:00 -
[59]
Granted, minmatar and smaller ships will not benefit from this change as such as the other races/bigger ships.
But wasn't it only months ago the drama began about sig radius reducing modules, where frigs would be overpowered beyond belief and minmatar ships have an advantage with their already lower sig radius?
I'm sorry, but i have to remain neutral on this one, and agree with both the nay and the yay sayers.
Yes minmatar and smaller ships will not gain as much from this 25% increase in hp, but they will have more then an advantage once the sig rad reduction modules come out. At least thats my view on it :)
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<insert clever/witty comment here>
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Weirda
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Posted - 2005.11.08 16:52:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Sub'Zero
try to read ones more what I said, thx
and...?
actually you said 12 second in one post and 10.01 in another... really wasn't going against what you said so much as how some ppl think it changes everything, and you stated that it doesn't change much.
bottom line is that weirda don't agree with the points that ppl are making. if you are gonna get ganked by superior numbers, you will still get ganked.
there will be more, not less, fitting options after the patch.
if all you do is fly around in a 6xGyrostab tempest with 1400mms (not you sub zero), weirda feel sorry for you... it's not the only option for matari you know... and a 2 gyrostab ac tempest will outdamage you anyways. weirda will actually be happy to see the 6Gyro Sniper FOTMers go away and fly something else.
@nafri... wtf was up with your example anyways? is that tempest just sitting the amarr's optimal? does he want to lose his ship? is it insurance scam? 
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Thread Killer
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