| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Vishnej
   |
Posted - 2005.11.08 19:45:00 -
[1]
With:
A) the stacking changes that make tanking easier
B) the new resist skills
C) the invuln field boost
D) the 25% HP boost
E) the stacking changes that make damagemod stacking harder
Compounded, these mean that the benefits of burst damage are getting removed. This was the minmatar's major suit after autocannons - their compensation for getting mixed weapons which are so hard to train, which need two damagemods instead of one, and which are often difficult to use effectively together on the battlefield.
What will replace the alpha strike to keep minmatar viable, that would feel... matari?
Ideas:
Increased falloff on artillery - and/or a falloff increasing module
A simple damage boost to all artillery
A high missile velocity shipbonus - on the order of +25% to +40% per level, which would make missiles capable at the long ranges which artillery needs due to tracking.
A blanket +200% structure to all Matari ships :)
T2 Destroyers: a proposal
Requested Changes: An alphabet's worth |
patteSatan
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 19:48:00 -
[2]
You're not used to nerfing, are you?? Just wait, they will nerf you more...as they nerfed caldari....
;)
|
SengH
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 19:48:00 -
[3]
Edited by: SengH on 08/11/2005 19:48:11
hmm this would be very controversial, how about instead of 5% dmg per level... 5% reduction to signature resolution of guns per level.
|
danneh
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 19:49:00 -
[4]
What is the point of a defense boost if your gonna increase the dmg?.
|
Vishnej
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 19:55:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Vishnej on 08/11/2005 19:56:20
Personally? I'm Amarr, I don't need to worry about nerfing, CCP loves us. It's not personal.
Seng: that does basically the almost the exact same thing as a tracking bonus, except a slightly higher benefit - (1/0.75) > 1.25.
T2 Destroyers: a proposal
Requested Changes: An alphabet's worth |
Arimai
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 19:58:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Arimai on 08/11/2005 19:59:01
a general largish tracking boost on the arties would counter it imho..
Still.. just expect the nerfbat to hit minmatar.
|
Sarmaul
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 20:02:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: danneh
What is the point of a defense boost if your gonna increase the dmg?.
The problem is that the race that can survive the least amount of time in combat also has the weakest guns in a long-battle. By boosting the damage mod of a 1400mm even further it would help to offset this.
To be honest I feel CCP have got this the wrong way around - either you give a race the best ability to tank, or you give them the best damage over time. NOT BOTH!!!
Originally by: Chowdown
We camp a lot
|
Forsch
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 20:07:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Forsch on 08/11/2005 20:09:53
It's funny how everything that has to do with minmatar, suddenly because their 'defining' and most important advantage the second someone talks about changes.
First it was the speed, now it's the alpha strike. Next up will be the ability to choose dmg type, then low signature radius, followed by unpredictable setups, etc.. 
I don't think anyone can tell yet what impact the coming changes have on the balance. Just wait and see how it works out. I am sure if it's really fatal for the minmatar, CPP won't hesitate to improve something for you guys again.
P.S. Imagine what happens if you give the race that tanks best the best strike dmg.. high volley dmg laser on weak minmatar armor? Not a good idea.
|
Shirei
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 20:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vishnej
What will replace the alpha strike to keep minmatar viable, that would feel... matari?
With the damage mod changes, the Tempest will catch up to some of the other ships in damage over time (since the Tempest currently fits less damage mods than most other fleet-setup ships and consequently loses less).
That means, the Tempest will be fairly equal in damage over time to the competing ships (except of course the Arma, which will still retain ~40% more dps than the closest non-Amarr competition).
|
Krulla
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 20:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: patteSatan
You're not used to nerfing, are you?? Just wait, they will nerf you more...as they nerfed caldari....
;)
Wait, when did they nerf Caldari? Did I miss something?
They revamped missiles, sure, they even made them better... (though heavy missiles need love)
Did I miss something?
Respect the Domi. Or else. |
Vishnej
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 20:32:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Vishnej on 08/11/2005 20:36:02
After thinking about it for a while, I like the combination of: Increasing artillery falloff by 50% and tripling Matari ship structure.
Giving you a weapon with long range, but much longer falloff(and capability to use EMP more often for varying ranges)- and an unconventional defensive edge that fits with Minmatar philosophy + ship design.
Simply increasing damage doesn't differentiate from the other races enough. If you're going to balance ships constantly with nerf/boost cycles, if you don't seek out things like racial differences and themes, you end up with a bleah playstyle that's the same for any race.
T2 Destroyers: a proposal
Requested Changes: An alphabet's worth |
Death Merchant
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 20:39:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Vishnej
With:
A) the stacking changes that make tanking easier
B) the new resist skills
C) the invuln field boost
D) the 25% HP boost
E) the stacking changes that make damagemod stacking harder
These changes affect the damage of all ships not just artillery. What about rails? What about tachs? If they boost artillery then they need to boost everything else. If they do that, why even make changes? Oh yeah thats right, because CCP want longer lasting fights and less one volley primary/secondary ganking anymore.
|
Nyxus
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 20:45:00 -
[13]
8+ Battleships>>>>>>>A+B+C+D+E
Changes won't make a difference in fleet battle. At all. If the overview flashes yellow and you aren't warping out, you will be dead.
And please don't spout that Tempests don't have the cap to tank. Thier weapons take miniscule cap to fire, and while they have lower overall capacity thier recharge rate makes up for it. A Megathron on the other hand, has more overall cap but uses massive amounts of cap to fire weapons with a lower overall recharge rate. It's actually very balanced.
Any armor tank that wants to be sustainable has to use lots of cap recharge mods if it wants to fire weapons and tank continuously. Doesn't matter if it's Amarr, Gallente or Matari.
Nyxus
Oveur> "CUZ I'M EEEXXTTRRREEEEEEEEMME!!" |
HippoKing
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 20:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Death Merchant
Originally by: Vishnej
With:
A) the stacking changes that make tanking easier
B) the new resist skills
C) the invuln field boost
D) the 25% HP boost
E) the stacking changes that make damagemod stacking harder
These changes affect the damage of all ships not just artillery. What about rails? What about tachs? If they boost artillery then they need to boost everything else. If they do that, why even make changes? Oh yeah thats right, because CCP want longer lasting fights and less one volley primary/secondary ganking anymore.
yes, but the reason artilleries have (atm) lower DOT than rails or beams/tachs is simply BECAUSE they excel at a huge alpha strike damage, giving an advantage earlier on in a fight. with these changes, this advantage will be worth much less, and DOT will be king.
thus artillery will become inferior to the other long range guns unless changes are made
|
Vishnej
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 20:47:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Vishnej on 08/11/2005 20:48:50
The vast majority of Minmatar PvP pilots right now rely on this playstyle CCP is trying to eliminate - moreso than lasers, rails, drones, or missile users, artillery users depend on killing their opponents on the first or second blow.
Something has to replace that to keep this class of weapons viable despite its inferior DoT.
T2 Destroyers: a proposal
Requested Changes: An alphabet's worth |
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 20:56:00 -
[16]
Let's see here.
Minmatar have....
The hardest hitting weapons (though not the highest DPS; still best for "teh g4nk").
The fastest ships.
The best scanning resolution.
The most agile (align for warp faster, ect).
The lowest signature radius (missed more, take less from missiles).
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?).
The downside is?
Sometimes less total HP than other races (Caldari is pretty close though so don't too feel bad).
Shortest targeting range (but still plenty for PvP).
Artillery have pretty bad tracking (but hey so do railguns).
Okay but I'm sorry I fail to see how Minmatar completely blow chunks here. I don't think they're the bestest race ever but they're hardly so horrible they aren't worth flying and many of their ships are pretty damn good, every race has some bad eggs of course.
------
If Captain James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock embracing one another, in a bath tube, nude, in space, is wrong, I don't want to be right. |
Nanus Parkite
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 21:24:00 -
[17]
Minmatar have....
The hardest hitting weapons (though not the highest DPS; still best for "teh g4nk")
-- Which if you remember is being phased out by the increased hitpoints and tanking making teh g4nk impossible except with a large number of ships. Funnily enough there is pvp out there that isn't fleet battles.
The fastest ships.
--Fair Point
The best scanning resolution.
--Which we pay for in lock range.
The most agile (align for warp faster, ect).
--Again fair point
The lowest signature radius (missed more, take less from missiles).
--Again fair point
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?).
--Someone recently did the calculations and showed that a full rack of autocannons is actually a fairly significant cap drain considering our worse cap. So while not having to worry as much as Amarr or blasterboats there is still enough of a drain to make the minny's worse cap stand out. Don't forget that the only weapons that are truly cap independant are your missiles but you don't see the Raven being given gimped cap.
|
Thomas Torquemada
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 21:26:00 -
[18]
Nothing will replace it, we will all have slightly altered carbon copy loadouts with no particular ship being any different from any other making eve a very dull girl idd.
UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace?
Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide!
Peace My Brothers... |
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 21:29:00 -
[19]
Quote:
-- Which if you remember is being phased out by the increased hitpoints and tanking making teh g4nk impossible except with a large number of ships. Funnily enough there is pvp out there that isn't fleet battles.
The whole alpha strike thing is basically 10 Tempests opening up on you in a fleet battle and I don't see +25% HP changing that.
Quote:
The best scanning resolution.
--Which we pay for in lock range.
Yeah but honestly in most situations I wouldn't say you are hampered by it. I don't think you would trade for Caldari scanning resolution and targetting range, right?
Quote:
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?).
--Someone recently did the calculations and showed that a full rack of autocannons is actually a fairly significant cap drain considering our worse cap. So while not having to worry as much as Amarr or blasterboats there is still enough of a drain to make the minny's worse cap stand out. Don't forget that the only weapons that are truly cap independant are your missiles but you don't see the Raven being given gimped cap.
Raven, or Tempest, or whatevers cap isn't gimped, it's baseline battleship standard. Every battleship has at least 4250 cap base.
Now if you want to go into other ships, Vagabond and Cerberus both have the worst Capacitors, 850 on each.
------
If Captain James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock embracing one another, in a bath tube, nude, in space, is wrong, I don't want to be right. |
Thomas Torquemada
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 21:29:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Nanus Parkite
Minmatar have....
The hardest hitting weapons (though not the highest DPS; still best for "teh g4nk")
-- Which if you remember is being phased out by the increased hitpoints and tanking making teh g4nk impossible except with a large number of ships. Funnily enough there is pvp out there that isn't fleet battles.
The fastest ships.
--Fair Point
The best scanning resolution.
--Which we pay for in lock range.
The most agile (align for warp faster, ect).
--Again fair point
The lowest signature radius (missed more, take less from missiles).
--Again fair point
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?).
--Someone recently did the calculations and showed that a full rack of autocannons is actually a fairly significant cap drain considering our worse cap. So while not having to worry as much as Amarr or blasterboats there is still enough of a drain to make the minny's worse cap stand out. Don't forget that the only weapons that are truly cap independant are your missiles but you don't see the Raven being given gimped cap.
How many people use autocannons, ill bet its way way less than artillery users.
UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace?
Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide!
Peace My Brothers... |
Helmut 314
|
Posted - 2005.11.08 21:43:00 -
[21]
The OP does have a point. Volley damage is going to be less effective than it is today when the HP boost etc comes to Tranquility. So what will this mean ? As I see it tacklers will be more important if you want to achieve anything in smaller confrontations. In small engagements five seconds or 100 hp can be the difference between escape and death. It will be interesting to see what an Interdictor can add to small unit actions.
Large scale fleet battles with focused fire will probably not be affected as much.
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure
- Homer J Simpson |
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 03:56:00 -
[22]
Artillary Beta Strike?
~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon
Biomass fears me.
Sovereignty 2.0 |
Kldraina
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 04:04:00 -
[23]
Maybe Projectile weapons should have their damage output increased, as well as an increase in reload time. If the Projectile weapons had a high reload time, they could be given high DOT up until reload, then with reload it would drop to a low DOT. This could make them better at the short battle without relying entirely upon the Alpha Strike of artillery. |
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 04:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kldraina
Maybe Projectile weapons should have their damage output increased, as well as an increase in reload time. If the Projectile weapons had a high reload time, they could be given high DOT up until reload, then with reload it would drop to a low DOT. This could make them better at the short battle without relying entirely upon the Alpha Strike of artillery.
Or maybe CCP is trying to make combat last a little longer by increase the defensive capabilities of ships?
What are you guys gonna do when CCP sets diminishing returns on multiple ships striking one target? Where is your "alpha strike" then??
------
If Captain James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock embracing one another, in a bath tube, nude, in space, is wrong, I don't want to be right. |
Menelak Faf
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 04:29:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Kldraina
Maybe Projectile weapons should have their damage output increased, as well as an increase in reload time. If the Projectile weapons had a high reload time, they could be given high DOT up until reload, then with reload it would drop to a low DOT. This could make them better at the short battle without relying entirely upon the Alpha Strike of artillery.
Or maybe CCP is trying to make combat last a little longer by increase the defensive capabilities of ships?
What are you guys gonna do when CCP sets diminishing returns on multiple ships striking one target? Where is your "alpha strike" then??
Nowhere, and we wont get a bloody thing to compensate for it.
SoonÖ is relative. |
Jim Raynor
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 04:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Menelak Faf
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Kldraina
Maybe Projectile weapons should have their damage output increased, as well as an increase in reload time. If the Projectile weapons had a high reload time, they could be given high DOT up until reload, then with reload it would drop to a low DOT. This could make them better at the short battle without relying entirely upon the Alpha Strike of artillery.
Or maybe CCP is trying to make combat last a little longer by increase the defensive capabilities of ships?
What are you guys gonna do when CCP sets diminishing returns on multiple ships striking one target? Where is your "alpha strike" then??
Nowhere, and we wont get a bloody thing to compensate for it.
Let's put our thinking caps on a second.
CCP is trying to make defensive setups be viable for PvP, and make combat last longer.
If that is the goal, why do you feel you are entitled to be compensated to get your weapons boosted to kill things faster? Isn't that just a tad self defeating?
------
If Captain James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock embracing one another, in a bath tube, nude, in space, is wrong, I don't want to be right. |
Sobeseki Pawi
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 04:56:00 -
[27]
Between the hp buff and the dmg mod stacking balance, even fleet survivability improves alot.
~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon
Biomass fears me.
Sovereignty 2.0 |
Slink Grinsdikild
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 05:14:00 -
[28]
Its not rocket science - if you increase the duration of a fight, burst damage is going to have less of an impact. I saw a graph the other day that showed an Enyo beats a Wolf's Alpha Strike damage using 280s within 4 volleys. Obviously if you start adding extra HP to both of those ships without adjusting the projectiles too, it means the railguns will continue to widen the DPS gap as the fight goes on.
But hey, Minmatar are ghetto.. and I wouldn't have it any other way. I wear the rust on my ship with pride. 
|
Wrayeth
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 05:15:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 09/11/2005 05:16:18
The thing to remember here is that DPS has more of an effect as the length of the fight increases. The difference in total amount of damage inflicted between a low DPS ship such as the tempest and a high DPS ship such as a 'geddon, mega, or apoc mounts the longer a fight drags on.
I'm just going to make up some numbers here to show the effects of DPS as the fight lengthens. I'll list comparative total damage inflicted in intervals of ten seconds for ease of comprehension.
Ship 1 inflicts 500 DPS.
Ship 2 inflicts 800 DPS.
Fight starts...
10 seconds in:
Ship 1: 5000 damage
Ship 2: 8000 damage
20 seconds:
Ship 1: 10,000 damage
Ship 2: 16,000 damage
30 seconds:
Ship 1: 15,000 damage
Ship 2: 24,000 damage
40 seconds:
Ship 1: 20,000 damage
Ship 2: 32,000 damage
50 seconds:
Ship 1: 25,000 damage
Ship 2: 40,000 damage
1 minute:
Ship 1: 30,000 damage
Ship 2: 48,000 damage
As you can see, the difference in total damage inflicted becomes more and more noticeable as the duration of the fight increases. Currently, the DPS amounts for low-DPS/damage-switching ships such as the tempest are fairly balanced as far as damage over time is concerned, but this will no longer be the case post-patch. The DPS differential will be much more noticeable at that point, with all ships having 25% more hit points to shield, armor, and structure, meaning longer fight duration.
To counteract this, ships and weapons that are, comparatively, low-DPS should be adjusted to be more powerful. I'd suggest a preliminary 12.5% more powerful (half the ship hitpoint increase), to be adjusted upwards further if a need for more is shown in testing.
-Wrayeth
|
Moominer
|
Posted - 2005.11.09 08:48:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
The whole alpha strike thing is basically 10 Tempests opening up on you in a fleet battle and I don't see +25% HP changing that.
Jim speaks the truth.
The alpha-strike weapons shine in situations where the target is not going to be alive more than 10 seconds or so (which frankly, is pretty often) -- one or two volleys.
The 25% HP change is not going to change the fact that the tempest still has the highest alpha-strike damage in the game, and that is a very useful asset to have at your disposal, 25% HP increase or not.
Adding "12.5%" damage to "low DPS" weapons is pointless until this is fully tested - in a live situation, and if and only if your wild claims that arties become usless turn out to be fact, then consider beefing them somewhat. (I like the way 12.5% is dug out as a figure to increase damage by because it's "half of the HP increase" without actually having half an idea of the math behind the numbers)
Eve Fitting Manager |
| |
|
| Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page |
| First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |