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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.11.08 19:45:00 -
[1]
With:
A) the stacking changes that make tanking easier
B) the new resist skills
C) the invuln field boost
D) the 25% HP boost
E) the stacking changes that make damagemod stacking harder
Compounded, these mean that the benefits of burst damage are getting removed. This was the minmatar's major suit after autocannons - their compensation for getting mixed weapons which are so hard to train, which need two damagemods instead of one, and which are often difficult to use effectively together on the battlefield.
What will replace the alpha strike to keep minmatar viable, that would feel... matari?
Ideas:
Increased falloff on artillery - and/or a falloff increasing module
A simple damage boost to all artillery
A high missile velocity shipbonus - on the order of +25% to +40% per level, which would make missiles capable at the long ranges which artillery needs due to tracking.
A blanket +200% structure to all Matari ships :)
T2 Destroyers: a proposal
Requested Changes: An alphabet's worth |
patteSatan
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Posted - 2005.11.08 19:48:00 -
[2]
You're not used to nerfing, are you?? Just wait, they will nerf you more...as they nerfed caldari....
;)
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SengH
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Posted - 2005.11.08 19:48:00 -
[3]
Edited by: SengH on 08/11/2005 19:48:11
hmm this would be very controversial, how about instead of 5% dmg per level... 5% reduction to signature resolution of guns per level.
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danneh
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Posted - 2005.11.08 19:49:00 -
[4]
What is the point of a defense boost if your gonna increase the dmg?.
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.11.08 19:55:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Vishnej on 08/11/2005 19:56:20
Personally? I'm Amarr, I don't need to worry about nerfing, CCP loves us. It's not personal.
Seng: that does basically the almost the exact same thing as a tracking bonus, except a slightly higher benefit - (1/0.75) > 1.25.
T2 Destroyers: a proposal
Requested Changes: An alphabet's worth |
Arimai
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Posted - 2005.11.08 19:58:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Arimai on 08/11/2005 19:59:01
a general largish tracking boost on the arties would counter it imho..
Still.. just expect the nerfbat to hit minmatar.
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Sarmaul
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Posted - 2005.11.08 20:02:00 -
[7]
 Originally by: danneh
What is the point of a defense boost if your gonna increase the dmg?.
The problem is that the race that can survive the least amount of time in combat also has the weakest guns in a long-battle. By boosting the damage mod of a 1400mm even further it would help to offset this.
To be honest I feel CCP have got this the wrong way around - either you give a race the best ability to tank, or you give them the best damage over time. NOT BOTH!!!
Originally by: Chowdown
We camp a lot
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Forsch
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Posted - 2005.11.08 20:07:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Forsch on 08/11/2005 20:09:53
It's funny how everything that has to do with minmatar, suddenly because their 'defining' and most important advantage the second someone talks about changes.
First it was the speed, now it's the alpha strike. Next up will be the ability to choose dmg type, then low signature radius, followed by unpredictable setups, etc.. 
I don't think anyone can tell yet what impact the coming changes have on the balance. Just wait and see how it works out. I am sure if it's really fatal for the minmatar, CPP won't hesitate to improve something for you guys again.
P.S. Imagine what happens if you give the race that tanks best the best strike dmg.. high volley dmg laser on weak minmatar armor? Not a good idea.
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Shirei
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Posted - 2005.11.08 20:08:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Vishnej
What will replace the alpha strike to keep minmatar viable, that would feel... matari?
With the damage mod changes, the Tempest will catch up to some of the other ships in damage over time (since the Tempest currently fits less damage mods than most other fleet-setup ships and consequently loses less).
That means, the Tempest will be fairly equal in damage over time to the competing ships (except of course the Arma, which will still retain ~40% more dps than the closest non-Amarr competition).
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Krulla
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Posted - 2005.11.08 20:16:00 -
[10]
Originally by: patteSatan
You're not used to nerfing, are you?? Just wait, they will nerf you more...as they nerfed caldari....
;)
Wait, when did they nerf Caldari? Did I miss something?
They revamped missiles, sure, they even made them better... (though heavy missiles need love)
Did I miss something?
Respect the Domi. Or else. |
Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.11.08 20:32:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Vishnej on 08/11/2005 20:36:02
After thinking about it for a while, I like the combination of: Increasing artillery falloff by 50% and tripling Matari ship structure.
Giving you a weapon with long range, but much longer falloff(and capability to use EMP more often for varying ranges)- and an unconventional defensive edge that fits with Minmatar philosophy + ship design.
Simply increasing damage doesn't differentiate from the other races enough. If you're going to balance ships constantly with nerf/boost cycles, if you don't seek out things like racial differences and themes, you end up with a bleah playstyle that's the same for any race.
T2 Destroyers: a proposal
Requested Changes: An alphabet's worth |
Death Merchant
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Posted - 2005.11.08 20:39:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Vishnej
With:
A) the stacking changes that make tanking easier
B) the new resist skills
C) the invuln field boost
D) the 25% HP boost
E) the stacking changes that make damagemod stacking harder
These changes affect the damage of all ships not just artillery. What about rails? What about tachs? If they boost artillery then they need to boost everything else. If they do that, why even make changes? Oh yeah thats right, because CCP want longer lasting fights and less one volley primary/secondary ganking anymore.
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Nyxus
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Posted - 2005.11.08 20:45:00 -
[13]
8+ Battleships>>>>>>>A+B+C+D+E
Changes won't make a difference in fleet battle. At all. If the overview flashes yellow and you aren't warping out, you will be dead.
And please don't spout that Tempests don't have the cap to tank. Thier weapons take miniscule cap to fire, and while they have lower overall capacity thier recharge rate makes up for it. A Megathron on the other hand, has more overall cap but uses massive amounts of cap to fire weapons with a lower overall recharge rate. It's actually very balanced.
Any armor tank that wants to be sustainable has to use lots of cap recharge mods if it wants to fire weapons and tank continuously. Doesn't matter if it's Amarr, Gallente or Matari.
Nyxus
Oveur> "CUZ I'M EEEXXTTRRREEEEEEEEMME!!" |
HippoKing
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Posted - 2005.11.08 20:46:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Death Merchant
Originally by: Vishnej
With:
A) the stacking changes that make tanking easier
B) the new resist skills
C) the invuln field boost
D) the 25% HP boost
E) the stacking changes that make damagemod stacking harder
These changes affect the damage of all ships not just artillery. What about rails? What about tachs? If they boost artillery then they need to boost everything else. If they do that, why even make changes? Oh yeah thats right, because CCP want longer lasting fights and less one volley primary/secondary ganking anymore.
yes, but the reason artilleries have (atm) lower DOT than rails or beams/tachs is simply BECAUSE they excel at a huge alpha strike damage, giving an advantage earlier on in a fight. with these changes, this advantage will be worth much less, and DOT will be king.
thus artillery will become inferior to the other long range guns unless changes are made
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Vishnej
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Posted - 2005.11.08 20:47:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Vishnej on 08/11/2005 20:48:50
The vast majority of Minmatar PvP pilots right now rely on this playstyle CCP is trying to eliminate - moreso than lasers, rails, drones, or missile users, artillery users depend on killing their opponents on the first or second blow.
Something has to replace that to keep this class of weapons viable despite its inferior DoT.
T2 Destroyers: a proposal
Requested Changes: An alphabet's worth |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.11.08 20:56:00 -
[16]
Let's see here.
Minmatar have....
The hardest hitting weapons (though not the highest DPS; still best for "teh g4nk").
The fastest ships.
The best scanning resolution.
The most agile (align for warp faster, ect).
The lowest signature radius (missed more, take less from missiles).
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?).
The downside is?
Sometimes less total HP than other races (Caldari is pretty close though so don't too feel bad).
Shortest targeting range (but still plenty for PvP).
Artillery have pretty bad tracking (but hey so do railguns).
Okay but I'm sorry I fail to see how Minmatar completely blow chunks here. I don't think they're the bestest race ever but they're hardly so horrible they aren't worth flying and many of their ships are pretty damn good, every race has some bad eggs of course.
------
If Captain James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock embracing one another, in a bath tube, nude, in space, is wrong, I don't want to be right. |
Nanus Parkite
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Posted - 2005.11.08 21:24:00 -
[17]
Minmatar have....
The hardest hitting weapons (though not the highest DPS; still best for "teh g4nk")
-- Which if you remember is being phased out by the increased hitpoints and tanking making teh g4nk impossible except with a large number of ships. Funnily enough there is pvp out there that isn't fleet battles.
The fastest ships.
--Fair Point
The best scanning resolution.
--Which we pay for in lock range.
The most agile (align for warp faster, ect).
--Again fair point
The lowest signature radius (missed more, take less from missiles).
--Again fair point
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?).
--Someone recently did the calculations and showed that a full rack of autocannons is actually a fairly significant cap drain considering our worse cap. So while not having to worry as much as Amarr or blasterboats there is still enough of a drain to make the minny's worse cap stand out. Don't forget that the only weapons that are truly cap independant are your missiles but you don't see the Raven being given gimped cap.
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Thomas Torquemada
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Posted - 2005.11.08 21:26:00 -
[18]
Nothing will replace it, we will all have slightly altered carbon copy loadouts with no particular ship being any different from any other making eve a very dull girl idd.
UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace?
Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide!
Peace My Brothers... |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.11.08 21:29:00 -
[19]
Quote:
-- Which if you remember is being phased out by the increased hitpoints and tanking making teh g4nk impossible except with a large number of ships. Funnily enough there is pvp out there that isn't fleet battles.
The whole alpha strike thing is basically 10 Tempests opening up on you in a fleet battle and I don't see +25% HP changing that.
Quote:
The best scanning resolution.
--Which we pay for in lock range.
Yeah but honestly in most situations I wouldn't say you are hampered by it. I don't think you would trade for Caldari scanning resolution and targetting range, right?
Quote:
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?).
--Someone recently did the calculations and showed that a full rack of autocannons is actually a fairly significant cap drain considering our worse cap. So while not having to worry as much as Amarr or blasterboats there is still enough of a drain to make the minny's worse cap stand out. Don't forget that the only weapons that are truly cap independant are your missiles but you don't see the Raven being given gimped cap.
Raven, or Tempest, or whatevers cap isn't gimped, it's baseline battleship standard. Every battleship has at least 4250 cap base.
Now if you want to go into other ships, Vagabond and Cerberus both have the worst Capacitors, 850 on each.
------
If Captain James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock embracing one another, in a bath tube, nude, in space, is wrong, I don't want to be right. |
Thomas Torquemada
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Posted - 2005.11.08 21:29:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Nanus Parkite
Minmatar have....
The hardest hitting weapons (though not the highest DPS; still best for "teh g4nk")
-- Which if you remember is being phased out by the increased hitpoints and tanking making teh g4nk impossible except with a large number of ships. Funnily enough there is pvp out there that isn't fleet battles.
The fastest ships.
--Fair Point
The best scanning resolution.
--Which we pay for in lock range.
The most agile (align for warp faster, ect).
--Again fair point
The lowest signature radius (missed more, take less from missiles).
--Again fair point
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?).
--Someone recently did the calculations and showed that a full rack of autocannons is actually a fairly significant cap drain considering our worse cap. So while not having to worry as much as Amarr or blasterboats there is still enough of a drain to make the minny's worse cap stand out. Don't forget that the only weapons that are truly cap independant are your missiles but you don't see the Raven being given gimped cap.
How many people use autocannons, ill bet its way way less than artillery users.
UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace?
Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide!
Peace My Brothers... |
Helmut 314
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Posted - 2005.11.08 21:43:00 -
[21]
The OP does have a point. Volley damage is going to be less effective than it is today when the HP boost etc comes to Tranquility. So what will this mean ? As I see it tacklers will be more important if you want to achieve anything in smaller confrontations. In small engagements five seconds or 100 hp can be the difference between escape and death. It will be interesting to see what an Interdictor can add to small unit actions.
Large scale fleet battles with focused fire will probably not be affected as much.
___________________________________
Trying is the first step of failure
- Homer J Simpson |
Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.11.09 03:56:00 -
[22]
Artillary Beta Strike?
~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon
Biomass fears me.
Sovereignty 2.0 |
Kldraina
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Posted - 2005.11.09 04:04:00 -
[23]
Maybe Projectile weapons should have their damage output increased, as well as an increase in reload time. If the Projectile weapons had a high reload time, they could be given high DOT up until reload, then with reload it would drop to a low DOT. This could make them better at the short battle without relying entirely upon the Alpha Strike of artillery. |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.11.09 04:07:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Kldraina
Maybe Projectile weapons should have their damage output increased, as well as an increase in reload time. If the Projectile weapons had a high reload time, they could be given high DOT up until reload, then with reload it would drop to a low DOT. This could make them better at the short battle without relying entirely upon the Alpha Strike of artillery.
Or maybe CCP is trying to make combat last a little longer by increase the defensive capabilities of ships?
What are you guys gonna do when CCP sets diminishing returns on multiple ships striking one target? Where is your "alpha strike" then??
------
If Captain James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock embracing one another, in a bath tube, nude, in space, is wrong, I don't want to be right. |
Menelak Faf
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Posted - 2005.11.09 04:29:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Kldraina
Maybe Projectile weapons should have their damage output increased, as well as an increase in reload time. If the Projectile weapons had a high reload time, they could be given high DOT up until reload, then with reload it would drop to a low DOT. This could make them better at the short battle without relying entirely upon the Alpha Strike of artillery.
Or maybe CCP is trying to make combat last a little longer by increase the defensive capabilities of ships?
What are you guys gonna do when CCP sets diminishing returns on multiple ships striking one target? Where is your "alpha strike" then??
Nowhere, and we wont get a bloody thing to compensate for it.
SoonÖ is relative. |
Jim Raynor
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Posted - 2005.11.09 04:42:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Menelak Faf
Originally by: Jim Raynor
Originally by: Kldraina
Maybe Projectile weapons should have their damage output increased, as well as an increase in reload time. If the Projectile weapons had a high reload time, they could be given high DOT up until reload, then with reload it would drop to a low DOT. This could make them better at the short battle without relying entirely upon the Alpha Strike of artillery.
Or maybe CCP is trying to make combat last a little longer by increase the defensive capabilities of ships?
What are you guys gonna do when CCP sets diminishing returns on multiple ships striking one target? Where is your "alpha strike" then??
Nowhere, and we wont get a bloody thing to compensate for it.
Let's put our thinking caps on a second.
CCP is trying to make defensive setups be viable for PvP, and make combat last longer.
If that is the goal, why do you feel you are entitled to be compensated to get your weapons boosted to kill things faster? Isn't that just a tad self defeating?
------
If Captain James T. Kirk and Mr. Spock embracing one another, in a bath tube, nude, in space, is wrong, I don't want to be right. |
Sobeseki Pawi
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Posted - 2005.11.09 04:56:00 -
[27]
Between the hp buff and the dmg mod stacking balance, even fleet survivability improves alot.
~Captain Cutie, HFS Event Horizon
Biomass fears me.
Sovereignty 2.0 |
Slink Grinsdikild
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Posted - 2005.11.09 05:14:00 -
[28]
Its not rocket science - if you increase the duration of a fight, burst damage is going to have less of an impact. I saw a graph the other day that showed an Enyo beats a Wolf's Alpha Strike damage using 280s within 4 volleys. Obviously if you start adding extra HP to both of those ships without adjusting the projectiles too, it means the railguns will continue to widen the DPS gap as the fight goes on.
But hey, Minmatar are ghetto.. and I wouldn't have it any other way. I wear the rust on my ship with pride. 
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Wrayeth
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Posted - 2005.11.09 05:15:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Wrayeth on 09/11/2005 05:16:18
The thing to remember here is that DPS has more of an effect as the length of the fight increases. The difference in total amount of damage inflicted between a low DPS ship such as the tempest and a high DPS ship such as a 'geddon, mega, or apoc mounts the longer a fight drags on.
I'm just going to make up some numbers here to show the effects of DPS as the fight lengthens. I'll list comparative total damage inflicted in intervals of ten seconds for ease of comprehension.
Ship 1 inflicts 500 DPS.
Ship 2 inflicts 800 DPS.
Fight starts...
10 seconds in:
Ship 1: 5000 damage
Ship 2: 8000 damage
20 seconds:
Ship 1: 10,000 damage
Ship 2: 16,000 damage
30 seconds:
Ship 1: 15,000 damage
Ship 2: 24,000 damage
40 seconds:
Ship 1: 20,000 damage
Ship 2: 32,000 damage
50 seconds:
Ship 1: 25,000 damage
Ship 2: 40,000 damage
1 minute:
Ship 1: 30,000 damage
Ship 2: 48,000 damage
As you can see, the difference in total damage inflicted becomes more and more noticeable as the duration of the fight increases. Currently, the DPS amounts for low-DPS/damage-switching ships such as the tempest are fairly balanced as far as damage over time is concerned, but this will no longer be the case post-patch. The DPS differential will be much more noticeable at that point, with all ships having 25% more hit points to shield, armor, and structure, meaning longer fight duration.
To counteract this, ships and weapons that are, comparatively, low-DPS should be adjusted to be more powerful. I'd suggest a preliminary 12.5% more powerful (half the ship hitpoint increase), to be adjusted upwards further if a need for more is shown in testing.
-Wrayeth
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Moominer
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Posted - 2005.11.09 08:48:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jim Raynor
The whole alpha strike thing is basically 10 Tempests opening up on you in a fleet battle and I don't see +25% HP changing that.
Jim speaks the truth.
The alpha-strike weapons shine in situations where the target is not going to be alive more than 10 seconds or so (which frankly, is pretty often) -- one or two volleys.
The 25% HP change is not going to change the fact that the tempest still has the highest alpha-strike damage in the game, and that is a very useful asset to have at your disposal, 25% HP increase or not.
Adding "12.5%" damage to "low DPS" weapons is pointless until this is fully tested - in a live situation, and if and only if your wild claims that arties become usless turn out to be fact, then consider beefing them somewhat. (I like the way 12.5% is dug out as a figure to increase damage by because it's "half of the HP increase" without actually having half an idea of the math behind the numbers)
Eve Fitting Manager |
Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.11.09 09:16:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 09/11/2005 09:16:34
This is an argument going on in two threads now. And I'll quite happily argue in both.
Let's clarify who's ships do what right now in terms of damage.
Amarr and Gallente have good constant DPS.
Caldari also have decent DPS on their battleships, but missiles are nerfed to all hell.
Minmatar are maybe a little subpar, but for many people (including me) they're good enough.
After this change:
Amarr and Gallente have good constant DPS, but take a little longer to kill.
Caldari are still nerfed to all hell, but at least their general DPS is fine except when shooting at fast targets.
Minmatar are now stuck at the bottom of the DPS pile with a less effective alpha strike to pull them out, in addition to gaining the least from the increased hitpoints (both relatively and absolutely) since they have the least to start with and also are generally the least capable of mounting a real tank.
So essentially...this change is just going to add one more race to the 'dont play me' pile, and have little-no effect on the two golden child races. Amarr being more golden than Gallente. Literally as well as figuratively.
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Forsch
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Posted - 2005.11.09 09:25:00 -
[32]
You can preach all you want about Amarr being Golden. And for the ship color I agree. Still, if you are up against Amarr you only need to tank em and thermal whereas against Minmatar you have to tank everything. This IS a very significant point in pvp, but something all you freedom fighters seem to play down.
But who could blame you. Everyone wants the best for their race naturally.
Minmatar will still have enough going for them.
And as I said in another thread already.. wait and see how things are when the changes are in. This is way too complex to fix in advance. CCP Is going to fix up artillery if it turns out that it utterly sucks.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.11.09 09:30:00 -
[33]
I agree with most of what you say Forsch, except there is a flaw in your argument.
The fact that against Amarr you only have to tank EM and thermal is irrelevent, since you can never usually know what you are going to fight.
If I wander out into 0.0 for a random bit of pvp, I can't take my ship out and just fit EM/Therm hardeners to it because that will own Amarr. If I come up against a Gallente ship, a ship with non EM/Therm drones, a Caldari ship, or even another Minmatar ship, I'm unhardened.
So saying that we have multiple ammo types is really not that much of an advantage except for when we come up against tech 2 ships and we know where the large resistances lie. Even then, most ships cover their resist holes and will have a fairly even spread of resistances. We may gain a little from being able to swap our ammo out. But all in all, and considering the 10 second load time, it's a minimal advantage at best.
This is where I could insert a moan about how Amarr also gain an advantage from their crystal changing time being so fast. But I wont, since I'm going to try and stick to the point :)
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.11.09 09:56:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Forsch
CCP Is going to fix up artillery if it turns out that it utterly sucks.
CCP is not infallible, they make mistakes and sometimes it takes them a fair while to fix them.
I was in this game for 8 months before projectiles were fixed by Hammerhead.
-
Just a simple warrior.
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Forsch
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Posted - 2005.11.09 10:08:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
The fact that against Amarr you only have to tank EM and thermal is irrelevent, since you can never usually know what you are going to fight.
If I wander out into 0.0 for a random bit of pvp, I can't take my ship out and just fit EM/Therm hardeners to it because that will own Amarr.
That's true. Guess I am too used to our Amarr-Minmatar conflict where the majority of CVA (some corps exclusively) fly Amarrian ships and our enemies *often* fly Minmatar (with t2 ships being extremely resistant against em/thermal).
While this seems more balanced in the big view, it's quite harsh in our Amarr-Minmatar war.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.11.09 10:59:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Testy Mctest
The fact that against Amarr you only have to tank EM and thermal is irrelevent, since you can never usually know what you are going to fight.
If I wander out into 0.0 for a random bit of pvp, I can't take my ship out and just fit EM/Therm hardeners to it because that will own Amarr.
That's true. Guess I am too used to our Amarr-Minmatar conflict where the majority of CVA (some corps exclusively) fly Amarrian ships and our enemies *often* fly Minmatar (with t2 ships being extremely resistant against em/thermal).
While this seems more balanced in the big view, it's quite harsh in our Amarr-Minmatar war.
You cant apply this to the whole playerbase though, its a roleplay choice we make. And we used to get our arse handed to us regulary by you guys back in the day.
I could say the same about the amarrian tanking and damage output, and also, we fight a wide wide range of ships nowadays, so its kinda a null argument. Anyway, this is not a discussion for these threads :)
-
Just a simple warrior.
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Arleonenis
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Posted - 2005.11.09 12:43:00 -
[37]
i agree that arts dot would be a problem but from other hand my idea is not to increase alfa strike but to increase dot... and it will be easily done even without messing with ship bonuses guns damage mod or even rof, just increase 4x projectiles clips please and everything will be ok
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Masu'di
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:06:00 -
[38]
Originally by: patteSatan
You're not used to nerfing, are you?? Just wait, they will nerf you more...as they nerfed caldari....
;)
the Caldari "nerf" was also a nerf for Minmatars as we use missiles a lot too. If you'd been around longer you'd realise that Caldari were probably the last to get the nerf baton..
but anyway that's a bit off topic and a pointless arguement of my race got nerfed more than yours, better to talk about something more constructive. so..
i think more speed, with perhaps mwd bonus. longer fights means more time for speed to matter. Minmatar with their nice falloffs will have more time to move out of thier enemies optimum ranges.
POS Drug Refinery |
Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:14:00 -
[39]
the best would be to increase arty ROF, and make 1200 actually a gun usable in PvP
Tempest will be betwenn 100 and 200 DPS behind the other ships after the changes (Tempest about 450, Megathron 540 and geddon about 620)
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Subscription canceled |
Ampoliros
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Nanus Parkite
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?).
--Someone recently did the calculations and showed that a full rack of autocannons is actually a fairly significant cap drain considering our worse cap. So while not having to worry as much as Amarr or blasterboats there is still enough of a drain to make the minny's worse cap stand out. Don't forget that the only weapons that are truly cap independant are your missiles but you don't see the Raven being given gimped cap.
I'm fairly confused as to where this idea of 'lower cap' on the tempest, at least, came about. A tempest is tied for cap with the raven (same recharge, cap amount), and is only slightly less than a megathron (250 base). The only real competitor, then, is the Apoc, with its 4800 base cap and 5% bonus per level. So, the idea that minmatar cap is somehow 'worse' is pretty much unfounded unless you're comparing directly to amarr.
That said, cap use on autocannons can add to a mild drain (6 guns, 3cap/shot, 4-5sec fire time - about 5 cap/sec or so), but its no more than a couple hardeners. Nothing catastrophic.
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Humbug ! |
Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:19:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ampoliros
Originally by: Nanus Parkite
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?).
--Someone recently did the calculations and showed that a full rack of autocannons is actually a fairly significant cap drain considering our worse cap. So while not having to worry as much as Amarr or blasterboats there is still enough of a drain to make the minny's worse cap stand out. Don't forget that the only weapons that are truly cap independant are your missiles but you don't see the Raven being given gimped cap.
I'm fairly confused as to where this idea of 'lower cap' on the tempest, at least, came about. A tempest is tied for cap with the raven (same recharge, cap amount), and is only slightly less than a megathron (250 base). The only real competitor, then, is the Apoc, with its 4800 base cap and 5% bonus per level. So, the idea that minmatar cap is somehow 'worse' is pretty much unfounded unless you're comparing directly to amarr.
That said, cap use on autocannons can add to a mild drain (6 guns, 3cap/shot, 4-5sec fire time - about 5 cap/sec or so), but its no more than a couple hardeners. Nothing catastrophic.
its more about the cap usage of shield tanks and the lack of compensation you can get on a tempest
tempest basicly needs gun ehancing modules or Ew in mids, otherwise you dont need to go into combat, so no cap rechargers in mid. also cap boosters dont really fit on a long range tempest, its all messed for that ship, both PG and CPU are way too low
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:26:00 -
[42]
shield tanking with the new skills is ******* more effective then armor tanking for cap effeciency, bull**** shield tanking takes sick cap was old 6 months ago... it's ancient now.
~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~
A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX
The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:29:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 09/11/2005 13:28:59
Originally by: Gariuys
shield tanking with the new skills is ******* more effective then armor tanking for cap effeciency, bull**** shield tanking takes sick cap was old 6 months ago... it's ancient now.
It doesn't really matter since most ships can't fit a shield boost amp, and even if they could they have much less room for hardeners and cap recharge enhancing stuffs, making for a lesser tank overall.
Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:34:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Gariuys
shield tanking with the new skills is ******* more effective then armor tanking for cap effeciency, bull**** shield tanking takes sick cap was old 6 months ago... it's ancient now.
some things for you to consider:
Tempest cant fit XL Booster II, or Shield Amp or a decent ammount of hardeners
and a CL5 XL eats lotsa cap, especially when you have to run it all the time since you have crap resistences
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:38:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 09/11/2005 13:38:31
Originally by: Forsch
You can preach all you want about Amarr being Golden. And for the ship color I agree. Still, if you are up against Amarr you only need to tank em and thermal whereas against Minmatar you have to tank everything. This IS a very significant point in pvp, but something all you freedom fighters seem to play down.
But who could blame you. Everyone wants the best for their race naturally.
Minmatar will still have enough going for them.
And as I said in another thread already.. wait and see how things are when the changes are in. This is way too complex to fix in advance. CCP Is going to fix up artillery if it turns out that it utterly sucks.
Bull****.
Oveur has stated that the POINT of this change is to weaken alpha strikes.
And when it's live, it's too late to change it.
CCP can EASILY solve this in advance. if they wanted to. Per Oveur, they don't.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Kuningatar
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:52:00 -
[46]
a little increase to artys clips is enough
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Hast
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:21:00 -
[47]
oh well... I'm just glad I got an amarr alt to play with.
bugger too, since I am over halfway to minnie BS lvl5 
might aswell stick to my race now and train L energy turret 5 :/
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:26:00 -
[48]
why are u minis crying, shouldnt u be serving your amar masters some*****ies
the tempest has many advantages that makes it a really good ship, one being that it doesnt use much cap at all to fire its guns
im a galante secilist and atm am training for mini bs 4, the reason is that the cap on my mega sucks balls, i have max cap skills and with a gank setup and 4 cap rechargers in mids, i run out of cap just shooting my 7 guns.
so the mega and geddon and apoc are useless for long fighting like a pos or station, reason is that you need to fit your mids with full cap rechargers which totally gimps you
this advantage alone should keep you quite.
not to mention that you still have the best alpha hit thus will still be teh best sniper
and for armor tanking being > shield tanking, thats bull****
360cap for 780HP increase = 2.16HP per cap
400 cap for 800HP increase = 2HP per cap
so shields boost more per cap than armor
armor users need to fit 2 large t2 reps to rep as much as 1 xlt2+amp, but its near enough impossible to fit 2 large t2 reps
so shield tanking > armor definitly
specailly as u can tank and gank
THE END
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Istmar Hi'ma
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:33:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Istmar Hi''ma on 09/11/2005 15:36:36
Originally by: patteSatan
You're not used to nerfing, are you?? Just wait, they will nerf you more...as they nerfed caldari....
;)
You're not used to nerfing, are you?? Just wait, they will nerf Caldari more...as they nerfed Minmatar's tracking to hell ....
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:34:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 09/11/2005 15:34:59
Gronsak's reply is a perfect example of why the phrase:
"90% of players are ****"
(expletive deleted being another way of saying 'stool')
is true.
And is why I just despair at trying to explain to people certain problems and imbalances, because they'll jsut never understand. Sigh.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:05:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 09/11/2005 15:34:59
Gronsak's reply is a perfect example of why the phrase:
"90% of players are ****"
(expletive deleted being another way of saying 'stool')
is true.
And is why I just despair at trying to explain to people certain problems and imbalances, because they'll jsut never understand. Sigh.
YES agreed the tempest is getting its alpha strike nerfed a bit cos ships will last longer
DOES it mean that mini are a crap race to specilise in, no way
Is it stupid to ask for a dmg increase is ofset the HP increase, erm yes
Tempest has many advantages over other gun boats, one of its disadvantages being DOT
Cant be the best at everything
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:53:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Testy Mctest
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 09/11/2005 15:34:59
Gronsak's reply is a perfect example of why the phrase:
"90% of players are ****"
(expletive deleted being another way of saying 'stool')
is true.
And is why I just despair at trying to explain to people certain problems and imbalances, because they'll jsut never understand. Sigh.
YES agreed the tempest is getting its alpha strike nerfed a bit cos ships will last longer
DOES it mean that mini are a crap race to specilise in, no way
Is it stupid to ask for a dmg increase is ofset the HP increase, erm yes
Tempest has many advantages over other gun boats, one of its disadvantages being DOT
Cant be the best at everything
your post was full of wrong data, assumptions and general lies. Nothing else to say
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.11.09 17:18:00 -
[53]
I dont think anyone wants a damage increase to offset the new tanking advantages.
I think all everyone wants is an assurance that CCP will balance out the Minmatar ships so it is effective with these new changes.
Oveurs comments in the other thread confuse me tho, he seems to be saying that is is what is intended, that minmatar become less powerful. I dont believe that was his intention at all however. But being a dumbass, i cant figure out what he meant.
-
Just a simple warrior.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 17:25:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
I dont think anyone wants a damage increase to offset the new tanking advantages.
I think all everyone wants is an assurance that CCP will balance out the Minmatar ships so it is effective with these new changes.
Oveurs comments in the other thread confuse me tho, he seems to be saying that is is what is intended, that minmatar become less powerful. I dont believe that was his intention at all however. But being a dumbass, i cant figure out what he meant.
Well good question what Oveur wanted to say, but I think he just didnt understand what I was saying, hes not a experienced ships&mods forum *****
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Trefnis
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Posted - 2005.11.09 18:38:00 -
[55]
The problem is that (imho)
Right now i could fit guns, semi shield tank (tempest cant do better) and all gyros in low just to be able to break someone tank. It all depended on gunnery skills and all if i can kill him in like 1-2 min before my cap dies, if he had gank, i kill him faster, if he has tank he dont do much dmg in return.
And after changes fight will last longer than 1-2 min and my cap will die, the only way would be armor tank in low and to keep it i need at least 3-4 cap rechargers, the tank is then large armor, med armor, 3 hardeners and plate.
In the same time apoc can sustain 2 large armor reps, 3-4 hardeners and guns for far longer then me. And lasers do more dmg than projs with no dmg mod, so there is no fight to win.
The only way to win now i see is to EW but i dont like that.
Anyway it is just my assumption
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.11.09 19:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino
Oveurs comments in the other thread confuse me tho, he seems to be saying that is is what is intended, that minmatar become less powerful.
Sorry Khaldorn, it looks pretty DARN clear to me that was exactly what he was saying. Arty (alpha strike) and Blasters (unsustainable cap use) have just become a heck of a lot less useful.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Ras Blumin
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Posted - 2005.11.09 19:31:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Nafri
some things for you to consider:
Tempest cant fit XL Booster II, or Shield Amp or a decent ammount of hardeners
6 1400 2's
XL 2, 2 t2 hardeners, Cap Booster, Amp
RCU 2, Co-Pro 2, 4 Gyros
Fits with 8.55 cpu left.
p - l - u - r |
deathfighter
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Posted - 2005.11.09 22:31:00 -
[58]
Edited by: deathfighter on 09/11/2005 22:32:45
Edited by: deathfighter on 09/11/2005 22:32:26
Originally by: Nanus Parkite
The most agile (align for warp faster, ect).
--Again fair point
No wrong all battleships have the same agility. wish eve-i was up and u guys whould have seen. 2 pilots in bs(tier I and II) with same skills align the same. the tempest and phoon only have little more speed but that don't afect agility or aligment.
whoever is saying that fiting shiled tank in mids ona artytempest is plain speaking bull... because there's no way u will do anything in pvp without 1-2 tracking comps with artilery. and a non gyro tempest has the most stupid dps ever.
so plz don't compare arty tempest to raven or poca or rail mega. there's no way a non gyro arty tempest can break a serios apoc tank and a non gyro arty tempest can't fit a tank that can tank any battleship in any mode for longer than 2 min.
8.9mil in gunanry only projectile and minie bs lvl5 here
tempest and machrial user.
Deathfighter--
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Jin Entres
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Posted - 2005.11.09 23:03:00 -
[59]
You forgot the -1 low slot +1 damage control change to all ships! 
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 23:03:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Ras Blumin
Edited by: Ras Blumin on 09/11/2005 19:47:11
Originally by: Nafri
some things for you to consider:
Tempest cant fit XL Booster II, or Shield Amp or a decent ammount of hardeners
6 1400 2's
XL 2, 2 t2 hardeners, Cap Booster, Amp
RCU 2, Co-Pro 2, 4 Gyros
Fits with 7.1 cpu left if you have a -3% cpu implant.
last 2 highslots?
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Imhotep Khem
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Posted - 2005.11.10 00:15:00 -
[61]
Does this mean the destroyer can loose its -25% ROF penalty?
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If your not dyin' your not tryin'. |
Naurhir
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Posted - 2005.11.10 00:19:00 -
[62]
Quote:
This is where I could insert a moan about how Amarr also gain an advantage from their crystal changing time being so fast. But I wont, since I'm going to try and stick to the point :)
This is countered by minmatar having ownage falloff, and Amarr having the worst.
I personally fly both amarr and matari ships, and recently decided to concentrate on matari for pvp, amarr for pve... even with these changes I plan to stick with my matari roots.
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Ras Blumin
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Posted - 2005.11.10 01:45:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Nafri
last 2 highslots?
Empty on that setup. Personally ,I'd fit a sensor booster instead of the amp, as that thing sucks cpu like mad, and being able to lock >78km is nice. That would leave 47,1 cpu (still with a -3% cpu imp included) which is enough for 2 med neuts.
p - l - u - r |
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