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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.11.09 09:16:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 09/11/2005 09:16:34 This is an argument going on in two threads now. And I'll quite happily argue in both.
Let's clarify who's ships do what right now in terms of damage.
Amarr and Gallente have good constant DPS.
Caldari also have decent DPS on their battleships, but missiles are nerfed to all hell.
Minmatar are maybe a little subpar, but for many people (including me) they're good enough.
After this change:
Amarr and Gallente have good constant DPS, but take a little longer to kill.
Caldari are still nerfed to all hell, but at least their general DPS is fine except when shooting at fast targets.
Minmatar are now stuck at the bottom of the DPS pile with a less effective alpha strike to pull them out, in addition to gaining the least from the increased hitpoints (both relatively and absolutely) since they have the least to start with and also are generally the least capable of mounting a real tank.
So essentially...this change is just going to add one more race to the 'dont play me' pile, and have little-no effect on the two golden child races. Amarr being more golden than Gallente. Literally as well as figuratively.
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Forsch
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Posted - 2005.11.09 09:25:00 -
[32]
You can preach all you want about Amarr being Golden. And for the ship color I agree. Still, if you are up against Amarr you only need to tank em and thermal whereas against Minmatar you have to tank everything. This IS a very significant point in pvp, but something all you freedom fighters seem to play down. But who could blame you. Everyone wants the best for their race naturally. Minmatar will still have enough going for them.
And as I said in another thread already.. wait and see how things are when the changes are in. This is way too complex to fix in advance. CCP Is going to fix up artillery if it turns out that it utterly sucks.
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.11.09 09:30:00 -
[33]
I agree with most of what you say Forsch, except there is a flaw in your argument.
The fact that against Amarr you only have to tank EM and thermal is irrelevent, since you can never usually know what you are going to fight.
If I wander out into 0.0 for a random bit of pvp, I can't take my ship out and just fit EM/Therm hardeners to it because that will own Amarr. If I come up against a Gallente ship, a ship with non EM/Therm drones, a Caldari ship, or even another Minmatar ship, I'm unhardened.
So saying that we have multiple ammo types is really not that much of an advantage except for when we come up against tech 2 ships and we know where the large resistances lie. Even then, most ships cover their resist holes and will have a fairly even spread of resistances. We may gain a little from being able to swap our ammo out. But all in all, and considering the 10 second load time, it's a minimal advantage at best.
This is where I could insert a moan about how Amarr also gain an advantage from their crystal changing time being so fast. But I wont, since I'm going to try and stick to the point :)
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.11.09 09:56:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Forsch CCP Is going to fix up artillery if it turns out that it utterly sucks.
CCP is not infallible, they make mistakes and sometimes it takes them a fair while to fix them.
I was in this game for 8 months before projectiles were fixed by Hammerhead. -
Just a simple warrior.
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Forsch
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Posted - 2005.11.09 10:08:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Testy Mctest The fact that against Amarr you only have to tank EM and thermal is irrelevent, since you can never usually know what you are going to fight.
If I wander out into 0.0 for a random bit of pvp, I can't take my ship out and just fit EM/Therm hardeners to it because that will own Amarr.
That's true. Guess I am too used to our Amarr-Minmatar conflict where the majority of CVA (some corps exclusively) fly Amarrian ships and our enemies *often* fly Minmatar (with t2 ships being extremely resistant against em/thermal). While this seems more balanced in the big view, it's quite harsh in our Amarr-Minmatar war.
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.11.09 10:59:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Forsch
Originally by: Testy Mctest The fact that against Amarr you only have to tank EM and thermal is irrelevent, since you can never usually know what you are going to fight.
If I wander out into 0.0 for a random bit of pvp, I can't take my ship out and just fit EM/Therm hardeners to it because that will own Amarr.
That's true. Guess I am too used to our Amarr-Minmatar conflict where the majority of CVA (some corps exclusively) fly Amarrian ships and our enemies *often* fly Minmatar (with t2 ships being extremely resistant against em/thermal). While this seems more balanced in the big view, it's quite harsh in our Amarr-Minmatar war.
You cant apply this to the whole playerbase though, its a roleplay choice we make. And we used to get our arse handed to us regulary by you guys back in the day.
I could say the same about the amarrian tanking and damage output, and also, we fight a wide wide range of ships nowadays, so its kinda a null argument. Anyway, this is not a discussion for these threads :) -
Just a simple warrior.
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Arleonenis
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Posted - 2005.11.09 12:43:00 -
[37]
i agree that arts dot would be a problem but from other hand my idea is not to increase alfa strike but to increase dot... and it will be easily done even without messing with ship bonuses guns damage mod or even rof, just increase 4x projectiles clips please and everything will be ok
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Masu'di
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:06:00 -
[38]
Originally by: patteSatan You're not used to nerfing, are you?? Just wait, they will nerf you more...as they nerfed caldari....
;)
the Caldari "nerf" was also a nerf for Minmatars as we use missiles a lot too. If you'd been around longer you'd realise that Caldari were probably the last to get the nerf baton..
but anyway that's a bit off topic and a pointless arguement of my race got nerfed more than yours, better to talk about something more constructive. so..
i think more speed, with perhaps mwd bonus. longer fights means more time for speed to matter. Minmatar with their nice falloffs will have more time to move out of thier enemies optimum ranges.
POS Drug Refinery |
Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:14:00 -
[39]
the best would be to increase arty ROF, and make 1200 actually a gun usable in PvP
Tempest will be betwenn 100 and 200 DPS behind the other ships after the changes (Tempest about 450, Megathron 540 and geddon about 620) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Ampoliros
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Nanus Parkite
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?). --Someone recently did the calculations and showed that a full rack of autocannons is actually a fairly significant cap drain considering our worse cap. So while not having to worry as much as Amarr or blasterboats there is still enough of a drain to make the minny's worse cap stand out. Don't forget that the only weapons that are truly cap independant are your missiles but you don't see the Raven being given gimped cap.
I'm fairly confused as to where this idea of 'lower cap' on the tempest, at least, came about. A tempest is tied for cap with the raven (same recharge, cap amount), and is only slightly less than a megathron (250 base). The only real competitor, then, is the Apoc, with its 4800 base cap and 5% bonus per level. So, the idea that minmatar cap is somehow 'worse' is pretty much unfounded unless you're comparing directly to amarr.
That said, cap use on autocannons can add to a mild drain (6 guns, 3cap/shot, 4-5sec fire time - about 5 cap/sec or so), but its no more than a couple hardeners. Nothing catastrophic. ------------------------------------ Humbug ! |
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:19:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ampoliros
Originally by: Nanus Parkite
Virtually nil cap usage on their weapons (buhu 1 energy per shot, before controlled bursts skill applied?). --Someone recently did the calculations and showed that a full rack of autocannons is actually a fairly significant cap drain considering our worse cap. So while not having to worry as much as Amarr or blasterboats there is still enough of a drain to make the minny's worse cap stand out. Don't forget that the only weapons that are truly cap independant are your missiles but you don't see the Raven being given gimped cap.
I'm fairly confused as to where this idea of 'lower cap' on the tempest, at least, came about. A tempest is tied for cap with the raven (same recharge, cap amount), and is only slightly less than a megathron (250 base). The only real competitor, then, is the Apoc, with its 4800 base cap and 5% bonus per level. So, the idea that minmatar cap is somehow 'worse' is pretty much unfounded unless you're comparing directly to amarr.
That said, cap use on autocannons can add to a mild drain (6 guns, 3cap/shot, 4-5sec fire time - about 5 cap/sec or so), but its no more than a couple hardeners. Nothing catastrophic.
its more about the cap usage of shield tanks and the lack of compensation you can get on a tempest
tempest basicly needs gun ehancing modules or Ew in mids, otherwise you dont need to go into combat, so no cap rechargers in mid. also cap boosters dont really fit on a long range tempest, its all messed for that ship, both PG and CPU are way too low --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Gariuys
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:26:00 -
[42]
shield tanking with the new skills is ******* more effective then armor tanking for cap effeciency, bull**** shield tanking takes sick cap was old 6 months ago... it's ancient now. ~{When evil and strange get together anything is possible}~ A tool is only useless when you don't know how to use it. - ActiveX The grass is always greener on the other side. - JoCool |
Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:29:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 09/11/2005 13:28:59
Originally by: Gariuys shield tanking with the new skills is ******* more effective then armor tanking for cap effeciency, bull**** shield tanking takes sick cap was old 6 months ago... it's ancient now.
It doesn't really matter since most ships can't fit a shield boost amp, and even if they could they have much less room for hardeners and cap recharge enhancing stuffs, making for a lesser tank overall.
Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:34:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Gariuys shield tanking with the new skills is ******* more effective then armor tanking for cap effeciency, bull**** shield tanking takes sick cap was old 6 months ago... it's ancient now.
some things for you to consider:
Tempest cant fit XL Booster II, or Shield Amp or a decent ammount of hardeners
and a CL5 XL eats lotsa cap, especially when you have to run it all the time since you have crap resistences --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:38:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Maya Rkell on 09/11/2005 13:38:31
Originally by: Forsch You can preach all you want about Amarr being Golden. And for the ship color I agree. Still, if you are up against Amarr you only need to tank em and thermal whereas against Minmatar you have to tank everything. This IS a very significant point in pvp, but something all you freedom fighters seem to play down. But who could blame you. Everyone wants the best for their race naturally. Minmatar will still have enough going for them.
And as I said in another thread already.. wait and see how things are when the changes are in. This is way too complex to fix in advance. CCP Is going to fix up artillery if it turns out that it utterly sucks.
Bull****.
Oveur has stated that the POINT of this change is to weaken alpha strikes. And when it's live, it's too late to change it.
CCP can EASILY solve this in advance. if they wanted to. Per Oveur, they don't.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Kuningatar
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Posted - 2005.11.09 13:52:00 -
[46]
a little increase to artys clips is enough
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Hast
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:21:00 -
[47]
oh well... I'm just glad I got an amarr alt to play with.
bugger too, since I am over halfway to minnie BS lvl5
might aswell stick to my race now and train L energy turret 5 :/
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:26:00 -
[48]
why are u minis crying, shouldnt u be serving your amar masters some*****ies
the tempest has many advantages that makes it a really good ship, one being that it doesnt use much cap at all to fire its guns
im a galante secilist and atm am training for mini bs 4, the reason is that the cap on my mega sucks balls, i have max cap skills and with a gank setup and 4 cap rechargers in mids, i run out of cap just shooting my 7 guns. so the mega and geddon and apoc are useless for long fighting like a pos or station, reason is that you need to fit your mids with full cap rechargers which totally gimps you
this advantage alone should keep you quite.
not to mention that you still have the best alpha hit thus will still be teh best sniper
and for armor tanking being > shield tanking, thats bull****
360cap for 780HP increase = 2.16HP per cap 400 cap for 800HP increase = 2HP per cap
so shields boost more per cap than armor armor users need to fit 2 large t2 reps to rep as much as 1 xlt2+amp, but its near enough impossible to fit 2 large t2 reps
so shield tanking > armor definitly
specailly as u can tank and gank
THE END
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Istmar Hi'ma
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:33:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Istmar Hi''ma on 09/11/2005 15:36:36
Originally by: patteSatan You're not used to nerfing, are you?? Just wait, they will nerf you more...as they nerfed caldari....
;)
You're not used to nerfing, are you?? Just wait, they will nerf Caldari more...as they nerfed Minmatar's tracking to hell ....
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Testy Mctest
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Posted - 2005.11.09 15:34:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Testy Mctest on 09/11/2005 15:34:59
Gronsak's reply is a perfect example of why the phrase:
"90% of players are ****"
(expletive deleted being another way of saying 'stool')
is true.
And is why I just despair at trying to explain to people certain problems and imbalances, because they'll jsut never understand. Sigh.
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Gronsak
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:05:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 09/11/2005 15:34:59
Gronsak's reply is a perfect example of why the phrase:
"90% of players are ****"
(expletive deleted being another way of saying 'stool')
is true.
And is why I just despair at trying to explain to people certain problems and imbalances, because they'll jsut never understand. Sigh.
YES agreed the tempest is getting its alpha strike nerfed a bit cos ships will last longer
DOES it mean that mini are a crap race to specilise in, no way
Is it stupid to ask for a dmg increase is ofset the HP increase, erm yes
Tempest has many advantages over other gun boats, one of its disadvantages being DOT Cant be the best at everything
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 16:53:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Gronsak
Originally by: Testy Mctest Edited by: Testy Mctest on 09/11/2005 15:34:59
Gronsak's reply is a perfect example of why the phrase:
"90% of players are ****"
(expletive deleted being another way of saying 'stool')
is true.
And is why I just despair at trying to explain to people certain problems and imbalances, because they'll jsut never understand. Sigh.
YES agreed the tempest is getting its alpha strike nerfed a bit cos ships will last longer
DOES it mean that mini are a crap race to specilise in, no way
Is it stupid to ask for a dmg increase is ofset the HP increase, erm yes
Tempest has many advantages over other gun boats, one of its disadvantages being DOT Cant be the best at everything
your post was full of wrong data, assumptions and general lies. Nothing else to say --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Khaldorn Murino
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Posted - 2005.11.09 17:18:00 -
[53]
I dont think anyone wants a damage increase to offset the new tanking advantages.
I think all everyone wants is an assurance that CCP will balance out the Minmatar ships so it is effective with these new changes.
Oveurs comments in the other thread confuse me tho, he seems to be saying that is is what is intended, that minmatar become less powerful. I dont believe that was his intention at all however. But being a dumbass, i cant figure out what he meant. -
Just a simple warrior.
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 17:25:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino I dont think anyone wants a damage increase to offset the new tanking advantages.
I think all everyone wants is an assurance that CCP will balance out the Minmatar ships so it is effective with these new changes.
Oveurs comments in the other thread confuse me tho, he seems to be saying that is is what is intended, that minmatar become less powerful. I dont believe that was his intention at all however. But being a dumbass, i cant figure out what he meant.
Well good question what Oveur wanted to say, but I think he just didnt understand what I was saying, hes not a experienced ships&mods forum ***** --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Trefnis
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Posted - 2005.11.09 18:38:00 -
[55]
The problem is that (imho)
Right now i could fit guns, semi shield tank (tempest cant do better) and all gyros in low just to be able to break someone tank. It all depended on gunnery skills and all if i can kill him in like 1-2 min before my cap dies, if he had gank, i kill him faster, if he has tank he dont do much dmg in return.
And after changes fight will last longer than 1-2 min and my cap will die, the only way would be armor tank in low and to keep it i need at least 3-4 cap rechargers, the tank is then large armor, med armor, 3 hardeners and plate. In the same time apoc can sustain 2 large armor reps, 3-4 hardeners and guns for far longer then me. And lasers do more dmg than projs with no dmg mod, so there is no fight to win.
The only way to win now i see is to EW but i dont like that.
Anyway it is just my assumption
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Maya Rkell
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Posted - 2005.11.09 19:01:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Khaldorn Murino Oveurs comments in the other thread confuse me tho, he seems to be saying that is is what is intended, that minmatar become less powerful.
Sorry Khaldorn, it looks pretty DARN clear to me that was exactly what he was saying. Arty (alpha strike) and Blasters (unsustainable cap use) have just become a heck of a lot less useful.
"Corpse cannot be fitted onto ship. Only hardware modules can be fitted." |
Ras Blumin
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Posted - 2005.11.09 19:31:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Nafri some things for you to consider:
Tempest cant fit XL Booster II, or Shield Amp or a decent ammount of hardeners
6 1400 2's XL 2, 2 t2 hardeners, Cap Booster, Amp RCU 2, Co-Pro 2, 4 Gyros
Fits with 8.55 cpu left.
p - l - u - r |
deathfighter
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Posted - 2005.11.09 22:31:00 -
[58]
Edited by: deathfighter on 09/11/2005 22:32:45 Edited by: deathfighter on 09/11/2005 22:32:26
Originally by: Nanus Parkite
The most agile (align for warp faster, ect). --Again fair point
No wrong all battleships have the same agility. wish eve-i was up and u guys whould have seen. 2 pilots in bs(tier I and II) with same skills align the same. the tempest and phoon only have little more speed but that don't afect agility or aligment.
whoever is saying that fiting shiled tank in mids ona artytempest is plain speaking bull... because there's no way u will do anything in pvp without 1-2 tracking comps with artilery. and a non gyro tempest has the most stupid dps ever. so plz don't compare arty tempest to raven or poca or rail mega. there's no way a non gyro arty tempest can break a serios apoc tank and a non gyro arty tempest can't fit a tank that can tank any battleship in any mode for longer than 2 min.
8.9mil in gunanry only projectile and minie bs lvl5 here tempest and machrial user.
Deathfighter--
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Jin Entres
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Posted - 2005.11.09 23:03:00 -
[59]
You forgot the -1 low slot +1 damage control change to all ships!
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.09 23:03:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Ras Blumin Edited by: Ras Blumin on 09/11/2005 19:47:11
Originally by: Nafri some things for you to consider:
Tempest cant fit XL Booster II, or Shield Amp or a decent ammount of hardeners
6 1400 2's XL 2, 2 t2 hardeners, Cap Booster, Amp RCU 2, Co-Pro 2, 4 Gyros
Fits with 7.1 cpu left if you have a -3% cpu implant.
last 2 highslots? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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