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Mercade	Posted - 2005.11.10 21:24:00 - [1] This is such a fun subject to discuss I think I'll discuss it again as I haven't seen a thread dedicated to it in a few weeks. Of course it is always part of any new feature hijack of other threads so this will give it a proper discussion spot. And I'm bitter the most supported Idea I've had in months on 0.0 space claiming for defense advantage slowly deflated like a flan in the cupboard. So I had an epiphone. That's either the way to spell it or some new type of communications device, either way. I find it so amazing that the common arguments against the removal of showing pilots in local (Except those talking) which btw is already coded in the game, after exodus several chats had this turned on, it's the middle option in the lil top right 3 buttons. Anyway, I find it amazing that people who want to have more safety and game experience are against this. Here, take this example: EVE 0.0 is like a vast unexplored mountain range with certain spots having gold mines. The only law is what you create. So your only options to go out and get gold is to .... anyone? That's right, bring lots of friends. Or hide where no one sees you and be careful and sneaky. Problem is EVE 0.0 + local is like putting radio tags on everyone and then distributing info on who is in what grid. It only becomes a matter of time before people go checkout the dots and find your mine. Thus negating any way to survive but by brawn. Which goes back to my discussion of claiming space and defense advantage, which since that doesn't exist and the aggressor has the advantage, it becomes nearly impossible to do anything but blob for safety. And the catch 22 is that because everyone sees the bad guys coming too the bad guys catch space dust and thus if they want to kill they have to gate snipe (majoritily). That's like saying you have to murder someone who's inside that house, but they will know the instant you walk in ok? Whatcha gonna do? Well hell stand outside with a gun heh. So if we were for a moment to pretend that what we know about local may not be correct and re-open our eyes. We see that hey, All I would need is a scout to watch the gate in some back end system and I could run mining ops and get the goodies. Or all I would need is coordination and patience and I could profit too. Or all the small corps of the world would stand to benefit as access/exodus to 0.0 would be feasible if you didn't have brawn but had stealthy and roguish charm (charm optional). For everyone else that's left there is simply the argument that solo mining in low security is still not possible and now more dangerous because of no way to see bad guys coming. Well gee. I'm sure the miner that went into the mountains for gold alone complained to god that he would get ganked because of his antisocial tendencies also. I don't mean that as an insult, but CCP can't make people take consideration into their actions and that seems to be what alot of people need to do. All they can do is give us tools. This is one we seriously need. Give us recon, stealth, covert operations. It's been agreed upon many times. You would still see where ships have blown up, or gate jumps, or sovereingty, which are all the current ways to know how to avoid a camp. And you could still send in a scout. So you're not losing anything. But you would gain so much. The market would be encouraged as ship losses and profiteering would both climb as people with risk taking mentality might try and sneak it. I just find this argument so simple it's saddening. It's like if counterstrike let you see where everyone was and who's team they were on. What would happen? Everyone would snipe/blob... duh. well darn if that isn't coincidental. Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Abdalion But but but....Bald is beautiful! It sure is. Wait... what are we talking about here? Nevermind.
shadyfox99	Posted - 2005.11.10 21:28:00 - [2] Nicely explained.
Mercade	Posted - 2005.11.10 21:43:00 - [3] Just makes me sad to see more stealth/recon in an FPS then in the only MMO I've seen that understands coordination, intellect and tactics. Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Abdalion But but but....Bald is beautiful! It sure is. Wait... what are we talking about here? Nevermind.
Mercade	Posted - 2005.11.10 21:53:00 - [4] Read first line of post again.. edited in I CHALLENGE ALL PIRATES TO ANSWER THIS: What % do you snipe now. What % would you snipe after local changes. Do you feel local pushes you away from being able to stalk and hunt people in a more enjoyable and thrilling way or do you find sniping just to be the way you would like to do it? Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Abdalion But but but....Bald is beautiful! It sure is. Wait... what are we talking about here? Nevermind.
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.10 22:01:00 - [5] If I jump into a system, I can do a Local check and see, "Aha! There is a carebear..." Now the system probably has 3-5 gates, so my chances of killing him on my own are pretty low. With a couple of helpers, maybe, but he may see them and log. Now suppose there is no Local. I jump in, and how do I know whether there is anything worth my time? What am I supposed to do, waste an evening looking? It would be like playing CounterStrike, not knowing whether there is an enemy team on the map.
Mercade	Posted - 2005.11.10 22:04:00 - [6] What would you rather have? THey instantly run away or you have to scan a few times to check for ships? It's a doubled edged sword. But both groups stand to gain alot. They get safer because you can't automatically find them and if they are prepared or smart yay. You get better hunting if you take the time to look. Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Abdalion But but but....Bald is beautiful! It sure is. Wait... what are we talking about here? Nevermind.
Slink Grinsdikild	Posted - 2005.11.10 22:10:00 - [7] Originally by: Cmdr Sy Now suppose there is no Local. I jump in, and how do I know whether there is anything worth my time? What am I supposed to do, waste an evening looking? Use your brains maybe? Originally by: Cmdr Sy It would be like playing CounterStrike, not knowing whether there is an enemy team on the map. Funny you should say that. Many FPS junkies I know dropped DoD like hot **** when they added a minimap to it, since it removed all skill from the game.
Mercade	Posted - 2005.11.10 22:23:00 - [8] Yay Slink! This isn't duckhunt. Just because it might be challenging doesn't mean it wouldn't be fun. And if any community should appreciate that concept it's this one. This isn't Wow pvp with 30 second pulse rez quake style arenas. Your hard work will die in a glorious blazing fight. If the fight can't be longer maybe the hunt/chase can?! Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Abdalion But but but....Bald is beautiful! It sure is. Wait... what are we talking about here? Nevermind.
Masu'di	Posted - 2005.11.10 22:47:00 - [9] Edited by: Masu''di on 10/11/2005 22:48:30 Mercada, brilliant post. Something i've thought about a long time, but never took the time, or perhaps the ability to explain it as well as you do. I can only see removing local in 0.0 as a good thing, and the catalyst to a true "exodus" that CCP have so long wanted. POS Drug Refinery
Cmdr Sy	Posted - 2005.11.10 22:57:00 - [10] Originally by: Slink Grinsdikild Originally by: Cmdr Sy Now suppose there is no Local. I jump in, and how do I know whether there is anything worth my time? What am I supposed to do, waste an evening looking? Use your brains maybe? Eh, there's no need for that BS. I'll tell you what people would end up doing. Putting up more bubbles and remotely-boosted sniper BS, because that would be the only way of getting a reasonably quick kill.
Solacia	Posted - 2005.11.10 23:44:00 - [11] With some basic skills and knowhow with the scanner you can have a system sweeped within a few minutes easily. Being able to do this without the local channel shouting your presence to everyone in the system would be very nice.
Thomas Torquemada	Posted - 2005.11.10 23:46:00 - [12] Edited by: Thomas Torquemada on 10/11/2005 23:46:25 Edited by: Thomas Torquemada on 10/11/2005 23:46:07 Originally by: Mercade Read first line of post again.. edited in I CHALLENGE ALL PIRATES TO ANSWER THIS: What % do you snipe now. What % would you snipe after local changes. Do you feel local pushes you away from being able to stalk and hunt people in a more enjoyable and thrilling way or do you find sniping just to be the way you would like to do it? At the very least for pirates there IS that option, after the stack changes its not really worth it/possible to snipe. So its back to gate ganks en mass, miners arent exactly in abundance these days. And yes, 95% of the time i snipe, why because that's where my only "customers" appear. UPC - PVP'ers Good and Bad, How Do You Want Peace? Through Talk Or In A Casket? We Decide! Peace My Brothers...
Christopher Scott	Posted - 2005.11.11 00:17:00 - [13] Edited by: Christopher Scott on 11/11/2005 00:18:51 Fact of the matter is this: You don't need local to find targets. You can use something else instead. It's a very old thing that is not very well understood, but for the few that do use it, they know it is a powerful tool. It works wonders. Hell, some people have been known to abandon local and the map entirely for this method. Want to know what it is? It's called INTEL. Know your enemy, find out their habbits, and how they operate. It's not that hard of a freakin concept to understand. People gravitate towards certain areas in the game for a reason. It's not a 'mining' system because someone spun the galaxy around and pointed at a random star. There is a REASON why people settle down in certain areas and use certain highways. The information is all there. Searching out and utilizing that information is not very hard. The problem is that too many people are LAZY. Intelligence gathering would become vital part of this game, even as far as becoming an economic industry, if it didn't have to compete with a built-in wallhack. Because that what wallhacks do, let you see where all your enemies are within the zone to kill any element of suprise. The built in maphack also makes baby jesus cry. I have been PvPing and living in lawless areas all my EvE life. I despise mining and NPC activities to the highest degree, ask anyone in my cop. I want local and the map removed. I will still be able to find kills, most of them being the whiny carebear pirates that are too lazy to play without it.
Syris Anu	Posted - 2005.11.11 00:31:00 - [14] I do not think that you do much to encourage 0.0 exploration and more combat by changing the game mechanics with regards to the local channel. Everyone evaluates the choice based on risk and reward. Make .5+ less profitable, .4- much more profitable, and dying less costly. Right, now .5+ has it all - safety, markets, and lots of Scordite to mine. Until those rewards diminish and .4- rewards improve, that's exactly where people will stay. Local channel changes may theoretically help, but those effects would be very small compared to the risk versus reward calculation that currently favors .5+ in a big way.
KSUDruid	Posted - 2005.11.11 02:56:00 - [15] Originally by: Syris Anu Make .5+ less profitable, .4- much more profitable, and dying less costly. Right, now .5+ has it all - safety, markets, and lots of Scordite to mine. Amen. Remove ALL Missions Level 4 (not just this higher quality crap, puh-leez) and any ore bigger than plagioclase from .5 and higher. Point 1 to Point 4 Give Level 4s, Omber, Kern, Hemo and Hed, And then 0.0 for the rest of the Ore and the pirate missions. The bottom line is those in 0.0 and low sec making their living should be making more money and getting more ³ber stuff than people don't leave .5 and higher. Take PVP completely out of the picutre, the rats are tougher, the stations are rarer and the space is bigger and wide open. If you're making more money, you should also have more to risk. I personally like local chat going away, just give those EW Frigs and cruisers some way to be able to see all Players ships in a local. Encourage teamwork and fleets for total safety. -Druid
Shamis Orzoz	Posted - 2005.11.11 03:18:00 - [16] Removing local chat would make the game much more interesting. Scanning would become extremely important, scouting woutld also be extremely important. I think it would be great. I doubt that the devs intended to have everybody log out when I enter local.
Righteous Fury	Posted - 2005.11.11 03:25:00 - [17] As for your challenge, I have never once sniped at a gate. I'm a 100% gate-tanking, belt-ganking pirate - when the mood strikes me to come back to empire that is. Removing local would definitely be an interesting move. Covert ops would get a huge boost to usefulness (as if they needed one already). Can't say for sure if I'd like it or not, though. Would make PVP a lot more of a chore than it currently is.
Megadon	Posted - 2005.11.11 03:46:00 - [18] Very good post. You really didn't need to make it a challenge kind of thing though, the title is a bit misleading. I agree that local while it serves a very useful purpose, it inhibits a lot of exploration and game play. I think the functionality of finding out who is in the system should still be available to those that need it, but it should be provided via other methods such as improving the scan probe functionality. The problem with Eve, is that there really isn't any "unknown". Once you enter into a system, you know 90% of everything there is to know about it. All that is missing is the exact location of everything and that kinda sucks. Perhaps giving a range to how far local "sees" similar to your overview. So when you enter into a system, you only see ppl that are in range of you, whatever that range may be, but not have it be essentially across the whole system as it is now. This way, if you're in a belt in the far corner of a system, you don't see who just entered in through the gate, but you do see them when they get within x number of AU from your position. or, have a new gadget that anyone can launch near their ship that is like a scanner that basically has a 5 - 15 AU range and warns you if someone is approaching. It seems that there should be a better way than what exists now that could provide some stealth and some information to those that want it. Right now, it is not very realistic imo.
Mercade	Posted - 2005.11.11 08:22:00 - [19] Honestly I think they should: -flip local to list only who talk. (already coded with exodus and many channels are setup this way) -Get rid of number in local channel also by the name -Remove show pilots average in 0.0 and keep that for .1 and up. That right there would probably take a minimal of coding and do alot. If you wanted to add on you could then: -Give the covert ops the ability to run cargo and ship scanners while cloaked at a 50% range penalty to the module and 50% increase to scanner time. -Add in a cruiser sized AWACS ship. Give it the same lack of offensive power as a logistics ship but make it terribly fragile. Allow it to use a new module "Advanced Scanning Array". This Array would be it's covert ops style module, increasing the scan range tremendously. -Allow the ship to automatically warp to anything it finds on the scanner at an accuracy of 50-200km -Allow a second AWACS cruiser when running module active to be selected by another ganged awacs as a probe (should be easy to code). This then puts their accuracy to 25-100km for anything in their scanner overlap. -Allow a third AWACS cruiser to join and if selected allow 100% warpable capabilities with the scanning person usign the other two AWACS to warp directly onto it's target. The above AWACS could be put onto covert ops as well. Scrubbing the extra ship and just boosting their role. It would then be easy for a properly organized fleet to run a sweep team forward of AWACS recon with escort. Or 3 awacs for a Force AWACS light fleet with engagement team for attempting to actualy engage targets. I would also highly recommend the ability to put a module at a starbase that is extremely hefty on CPU/PG but can be used with a right click to instantly scan and locate anything within that system. Allowing a defense advantage for prepared forward scout posts, and another eason to actually put up POS. For anyone who doesn't want to be scannable. .Just equip a cloaking device and lose a slot + some locking time. You could technically hide a 20 battleship fleet all cloaked at a moon waiting for their covert ops pilots to let them know of incoming ships. But ina straight 20 - 20 fight they would be at a disadvantage with 50% slower lock times. Either way... just needs to be done. terribly. Originally by: Winterblink Originally by: Abdalion But but but....Bald is beautiful! It sure is. Wait... what are we talking about here? Nevermind.
babyblue	Posted - 2005.11.11 08:28:00 - [20] I don't like it. Those "gold mines in certain spots" you speak of are Static. This means that to all intents and purposes the PK'er knows where to go. Over time he'll have his little map of potential places - which he can get right now by looking at true security status come to think of it. That my friend, is called an unfair advantage.
Gabriel Karade	Posted - 2005.11.11 08:33:00 - [21] Oh I'd like to see this changed. Given that it is a double-edged sword, the only people who would lose out are the lazy/stupid (\_/) (O.o) (> <) "That's no ordinary rabbit!...that's the most foul, cruel and bad-tempered rodent you ever set eyes on"
Rod Blaine	Posted - 2005.11.11 08:43:00 - [22] The only people that would lose out is those without deep space safe spots you cant scan. There could be 200 hostiles in your system and you would neve even know it unless you watch all gates 23/7. All they have to do is bring a good number of covops and wait for the right moment. Now, personally i could probably deal with that, and do it as well. But I think at least some will complain at not being able to mine in busier systems at all. Or not being able to hang out at station only half paying attention because there's jsut this single hostile in local anyway, etc.etc. It might be good for the atmosphere, but it will be no good at all for playability and for getting people that are somewhat moe risk-aversive out to 0.0. Now, a delay based on shiptypes, that would be an option allright. _______________________________________________ Power to the players !
Jon Hawkes	Posted - 2005.11.11 08:57:00 - [23] Originally by: Mercade -Give the covert ops the ability to run cargo and ship scanners while cloaked at a 50% range penalty to the module and 50% increase to scanner time. I LOVE this idea: it gives a "true" Covert Ops function in the game, rather than relying on your Covert Ops pilot telling you that your defense fleet has to deal with "Tempest and Scorpion" Free production, refining and POS tools
Mangold	Posted - 2005.11.11 09:04:00 - [24] Well put. However, local needs to stay as it is today in empire space. Imagine looking for enemies in Rens without local.... That would be the death of empire wars, save gate camps.
babyblue	Posted - 2005.11.11 09:33:00 - [25] Thats all very well, but you all missed my point that there won't be much "hunting" going on, because you will damned well know exactly where people are. High value resource pockets don't move. They are static. Like most people on the forums, you are proposing a change that would suit your game style but seriously screw others over, unless you are proposing randomising the locations of the "gold mines" (any static resource pocket - asteroids, Moons etc.)?
d'hofren	Posted - 2005.11.11 10:19:00 - [26] Edited by: d''hofren on 11/11/2005 10:22:07 I have to agree with Rod. I am afraid that you have to appreciate that this game includes people who are risk adverse. Some of those people may go on to become risk takers and some may not. The fundamental flaw with removing local and moving to a ewar / recon model is that of grouping. low sec becomes a lucky dip of death unless players are grouped with one of these scout types. My vote? Increase the amount of low sec systems. It is getting crowded. A year ago I could easily find a low sec spot to do whatever. A passing pirate had a far higher chance of getting me as I was more relaxed. Nowdays it seems that every time I visit a cluster of more than 3 low sec systems I get chased by pirates, that doesn't bother me, but being chased by an interceptor is going to bother a two month old guy in his first cruiser. TBH I feel that the current problem is that the prey / predator balance is off. More to the point I think the predator / territory balance is wrong. A male tiger needs a hunting ground of 5km square. That area ensures it has a chance of finding an unwary prey animal. The current problem with empire piracy is that we have too many people trying to feed off too small a table. This sends the risk adverse scurrying back to safe space and forces pirates to gank at high traffic systems. The ganking increases player paranoia and so further reduces the amount of low sec targets around. This is why I disagree with the remove decent ores form safe space and move lvl 4 agents to low sec proposals. All this achieves is creating a conveyor belt of prey for whoever feels like dining. Eventually the prey will get fed up and go to do something more interesting like playing another game. --- Originally by: Winterblink It's an online game. Online games are always populated at people who look at their wood elf and whine that everyone else's dagger is bigger than theirs.
Dark Shikari	Posted - 2005.11.11 10:22:00 - [27] How about remove local, but keep the "number" in local? You'd be able to tell how many, just not who they were... - Proud member of the [23]. Don't get the reference in my sig? Click it.
hired goon	Posted - 2005.11.11 10:36:00 - [28] The 'some people want to stay safe' argument is useless. Local is not a feature that needs balancing - it's a bug. It's broken. It's every ship having a super-scanner that tells you exactly how many people and who is within attacking distance. The only people who argue to keep local the way it is, are the lazy. There is no point arguing with this fact. Imagine if in Eve, when you died you didn't lose your ship but simply appeared back in the station when defeated. I think we can all agree it would be crap, right? But if a small crowd (which I would be included in) spoke out against it, they'd be slated by the same people that are slating us now. I'm sure the same people would like a seperate pvp server. -omg-
Banana Torres	Posted - 2005.11.11 13:18:00 - [29] I am a low sec miner who uses local as tool to protect my mining ops. But if it was to disappear, I would adapt. Most likely I would stick a disposable alt on the gates and eyeball everyone that enters and leaves. So I would still be in my safespot 10 seconds after a known pirate enters the system.
Khaldorn Murino	Posted - 2005.11.11 13:21:00 - [30] Originally by: Cmdr Sy not knowing whether there is an enemy team on the map. This would be fun! - Just a simple warrior.

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