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Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
15
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Posted - 2011.10.22 15:11:00 -
[1] - Quote
Sure, you can sometimes get small gang fights in wormholes, or in lowsec or faction war, but small gang PvP still suffers overall of being too risky for the reward in most cases.
So, some questions to think about...
Should small gangs be able to harass larger gangs in such a way that it's difficult to catch and kill the small gang?
Should small gangs have VIABLE objectives in sov warfare?
Should small gangs be able to "raid" resources from other, larger entities? (Pretty sure a dev mentioned this idea somewhere)
Should CCP consider buffing speed across the board for cruiser and smaller hulls? (It's been a long time since the nano nerf, and there are PLENTY of counters players can bring in the form of ships for countering speed, it just requires some forethought on behalf of those forming their fleets).
If there are any more good prompt questions people come up with, I'll edit the OP and give credit where due.
Personally, I'd love to see a resurgence of small gang activity. Sadly, I think some gameplay changes really need to take place before it's particularly viable, so let's try to have a constructive discussion about what needs to be done. |
Amsterdam Conversations
Cheesecake Starshine
32
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Posted - 2011.10.22 15:15:00 -
[2] - Quote
You know, if you want small gang PVP to come back, ******* head out with less than 20 people in fleet. It's not so ******* hard. |
Soi Mala
Whacky Waving Inflatable Flailing Arm Tubemen
53
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Posted - 2011.10.22 15:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
What needs to happen? People need to grow balls, thats it.
ITS A GAME FFS. I've never known any other game create such aversion to risk. So what if you die horribly and get everyone else killed? Noone will remember by tomorrow and they'l all have new, identical ships.
The idea that internet spaceships and e-reputation are serious business is what killed this game. So much weight placed on death that people will avoid it at all costs.
AT ALL COSTS.
It's pathetic.
|
Elise DarkStar
DarkCorp Capital Group
DarkCorp Imperium
83
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 15:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Small gang raiding targets is exactly it, and it's tied to the need to change sovereignty and pve as well. Tie sovereignty and its corresponding structures to active teamwork-oriented pve isk-making. Now you have 100s to 1000s of groups of people in space making money. These groups and their requisite sovereignty structures give a target for small gangs to raid. These small raiding gangs give a target for defensive gangs to counter.
By diffusing isk production and conflict, you diffuse the need to blob. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
387
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 15:33:00 -
[5] - Quote
Caulk H0lster wrote:
Should small gangs be able to harass larger gangs in such a way that it's difficult to catch and kill the small gang?
Yes, absolutely - there has to be one single advantage of bringing the smaller gang. A small gang of comparable ships and pilots should always be killed by the larger gang, but right now, there's no point at all to bring fewer members, which leads to the terrible amount of blobbing and blueballing in eve.
Quote:Should small gangs have VIABLE objectives in sov warfare?
Imho no - Taking over sov should always involve heavier machinery and huge fleet fights.
Quote:Should small gangs be able to "raid" resources from other, larger entities? (Pretty sure a dev mentioned this idea somewhere)
Absolutely - small gangs need a purpose - raidable moonmining arrays would require alliances to actuqally populate their space to keep it profitable - otherwise they'll get robbed until there's nothing left.
Small gangs never really had a purpose to begin with - fielding them was always an end in itself. Other than e-peen-stroking (killmails), there never was any profit to be made and no strategic goal to be achieved.
Quote:Should CCP consider buffing speed across the board for cruiser and smaller hulls? (It's been a long time since the nano nerf, and there are PLENTY of counters players can bring in the form of ships for countering speed, it just requires some forethought on behalf of those forming their fleets).
No - BS are already too gimped for my taste.
Quote:
Personally, I'd love to see a resurgence of small gang activity. Sadly, I think some gameplay changes really need to take place before it's particularly viable, so let's try to have a constructive discussion about what needs to be done.
Same here - blobs are for brainless sheep who enjoy ctrl+clicking their overview and hitting F1 repeatedly - that's killmail-mining, not pvp.
morons-áare recruiting. We're good at breeding! |
Jerick Ludhowe
Shadow Legion Industries
Dark Phoenix Rising.
1
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Posted - 2011.10.22 15:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Line of sight and a rework of collision detection on objects in space. |
Roosterton
Eternal Frontier
110
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 15:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Remove killmails.
No killmails = less incentive to just join a blob and pad your killboard = less people doing that = more small gang PVP. |
Orion GUardian
60
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 15:57:00 -
[8] - Quote
Roosterton wrote:Remove killmails.
No killmails = less incentive to just join a blob and pad your killboard = less people doing that = more small gang PVP.
With them adding implants to KMs that won't be happen soon, I'd rather want to get soem system for Logi pilots to get onto KMs....far too few want to fly logis especially in small gang environment which makes forming small gangs even more difficult. There aren't many people around that like flying around without Logi in a gang ^^
Anyway my opinion to the case:
There needs to be a gain to be had for small gangs beside just Killmails.
Like being able to sabotage the enemy in some way. [lets say a small gang holds position at a JB POS for a limited time: JB is deactivated for a fixed timeframe unless its mauall reactivated or the gang is driven off or something. Ofc, the idea of LCO to let them even Raid Monn-Mining arrays or something is viable as well.
Make Sov Warfare more varied: Right now it is ONLY Big foleets shooting structures. Add a few more layers. Incursions are a nice role model here: Make some stuff that needs to be hacked, perhaps something can be sabotaged by putting minerals in it. or something like that.
Include tasks for Gangs that are not killing IHubs and TCUs but small gangs that need/can operate simultaneously to the big fleet, perhaps in neighbouring systems, to complete different objectives and the defender needs to repel X of Y attacks. [just killing the main fleet may not be enough but it shouldn'tt be necessary to repel every "Layer"] We got alot of potential to include different objectives and tasks that will and must include Small Gangs.
|
Orion GUardian
60
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Posted - 2011.10.22 15:59:00 -
[9] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Line of sight and a rework of collision detection on objects in space.
Oh nearly forgot: Which will jsut exponentially increase lag because of even more stuff the Physicsengine needs to calculate? It sounds nice in theory, but in practice we got ALOT of factors deciding about winning and losing in PvP. Adding more will add more variety but more loag as well. |
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
80
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 16:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
1. No, We already did the nigh invulnerable nano crap and it didn't work. Only thing that is needed is some delay on cyno's/jumping/bridging as that is by far the biggest threat to small gangs .. unscoutable infinite reinforcements.
2. Goddess yes. There is currently not a single part of bore-sec that does not have BlobHardGäó as the ultimate solution, it is one of the primary reasons for the ever growing blobs/blocs.
3. Would be a perfectly apt penalty for bunkering up and relying on timers and a bazillion friends to defend ones space. Ideally I'd like to see a passive defenders space burnt to a cinder and be utterly useless for as long as they chose to sit on their thumbs while barbarians **** their cattle.
4. What counters other than the selfsame that failed horribly at the job in the nano-age (Hugg/Rapi, Hvy.Neuts)? The sub-BC classes are in a pretty damn good place right now thanks to the speed rebalance with diversity several orders of magnitude larger than pre-"nerf". |
Russell Casey
One Ton
THREE WOLF
41
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Posted - 2011.10.22 22:53:00 -
[11] - Quote
1) Local needs to change. Doesn't have to be delayed, but it needs to be harder to identify a small gang than just scrolling down and seeing what color everybody is. Small gangs will know who's in their fleet, but large gangs or even busy trade hubs with a high population count won't know there's enemies among them until it's too late. And that's really what a small force is meant to do in warfare, separate from a larger force and pick off stragglers, disrupt logistics, eliminate the enemy's ability to supply themselves and generally sow confusion so the big force has an easier time. They can also gank the enemy's unprotected carebears to hurt their isk income.
2) A bridging option without a POS or a titan. Again, they have to be able to infiltrate and outmanuever larger forces and hit an enemy empire's soft underbelly (which in EVE would be the carebears who can't even deal with AFK cloakers) in order to hurt an enemy alliance's income (again, if you gank their carebears, you gank their war machine).
3) Ways to flip a system without a huge POS-bash and long-ass timers and the ability to take down moon mining areas not adequately guarded. There has to be something that makes a small gang a legimate threat so the larger force will even bother to chase them. Otherwise they'll be ignored. And also, make it easier to gank unprotected carebears and hurt their enemey's income.
4) Easier ways to gank an enemy's carebears/bots if they're unprotected and thus hurt their income.
Yes, I'm picking on carebears because anyone who's played an RTS will tell you that when you get raiders into an enemy's base the FIRST thing you kill are his workers, farmers, builders, transports, etc because it keeps him from rolling out the heavy combat units and forces him to protect his economy. That's what null really is: a giant game of Starcraft. Kind of sucks being an SCV or a zergling, don't it? Which is why I don't live there.
And if you say EVE is completely different from Starcraft, didn't the DRF just win 0.0 by spamming (upgraded) Carriers? |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
99
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Posted - 2011.10.22 22:55:00 -
[12] - Quote
small gang pvp is pretty much gone......... as much as i miss it, i've had to learn to deal with it....so should you!
Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless your from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs. |
baltec1
129
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 22:56:00 -
[13] - Quote
Small gangs can take on big fleets, they just need the nuts to try. |
T-Jay Charante
The Scope
Gallente Federation
10
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Posted - 2011.10.22 22:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
Instanced battlefields, like most MMO's have managed to develop in the last decade. |
David Grogan
The Motley Crew Reborn
99
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 23:07:00 -
[15] - Quote
T-Jay Charante wrote:Instanced battlefields, like most MMO's have managed to develop in the last decade.
no because that breaks away from eve online being a single shard server
Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless your from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs. |
T-Jay Charante
The Scope
Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 23:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
David Grogan wrote:T-Jay Charante wrote:Instanced battlefields, like most MMO's have managed to develop in the last decade. no because that breaks away from eve online being a single shard server
Every mission you go to is instanced.
|
Rhinanna
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
23
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Posted - 2011.10.22 23:11:00 -
[17] - Quote
Small gang pvp is no-where near dead, its just rarer in sov 0.0.
The biggest problem with small gang pvp is the hot-drop. You engage any enemy who owns a titan, anywhere near their space and there is a good chance there is a gang twice the size of your waiting at the other end of a titan bridge.
Simply put, the titan bridge should be a out of combat method of transfer for ships to keep up with their cap fleet, not to jump in on top of the enemy, same with any cyno TBH (apart from covert cyno)
Either make using a titan bridge use 100% of your cap, or put a delay on using it from when the cyno is popped. This would at least reduce the casulties from the gang getting dropped on, or allow them a chance to kill the cyno ship before they can gate too much in.
-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it!
Other names: Drenzul (WoT, WoW, Lineage 2, WarH, BloodBowl, BSG, SC2 and lots more)-á |
Tear Miner
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
8
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Posted - 2011.10.22 23:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Soi Mala wrote:What needs to happen? People need to grow balls, thats it.
ITS A GAME FFS. I've never known any other game create such aversion to risk. So what if you die horribly and get everyone else killed? Noone will remember by tomorrow and they'l all have new, identical ships.
The idea that internet spaceships and e-reputation are serious business is what killed this game. So much weight placed on death that people will avoid it at all costs.
AT ALL COSTS.
It's pathetic.
Pretty much this. You sir, have my vote if you ever want to run for CSM. |
Eternus8lux8lucis
Whack-A-Mole
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 23:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
Some ideas off the top of my head
Targets small gangs can harass that have the reward either in killmails, disruption of services and/or griefing or isk value in dropped items or isk bounties.
Must be mobile in nature so as to allow hit and run tactics instead of attacking stationary defenses like POSs or outposts are currently. Grinding away at shooting structures sucks. Make it akin to incursions with some sort of payout as well as the ability to disrupt services for a set time. Let the time disturbance be based on how much dps is put on target. Let the dps on target per ship be a factor. Like incursions where theres a sweet spot for rewards and payouts let it drop quickly for if more ships are added. Let this be a payout and dps modifier.
Allow for black ops or small raid style tactics. Allow for fleet survivability by making the disruptions small, effective, possibly lucrative, and have meaning both in the individual sense as well as the greater tactic sense.
Randomize the spawn locations every so often so as to not allow a set defense, but more a active system defense.
Has to both reward the pilots for their efforts economically and socially targeting player groups in the 4-8 ship category
Shields would either regen naturally, or a beacon to the sov owners would illuminate after a set amount of time that there is no dps being put on target and be reppable to restore services to systems or pay a few based on the hps needed to restore service immediately. This isk could go into a kitty for a random drop towards a fleet attacking the service. Sort of a slot machine random drop aspect. This way we can avoid the boring grind of repping shields on yet another structure, given an incentive to the players to attack these things and allow isk to be used to "defend" resources.
Targets to include things like Customs offices, Jump bridges, cyno jammers, moon mining arrays, infrastructure upgrades. |
DarkAegix
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
130
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 23:57:00 -
[20] - Quote
Make Scorch ammunition fire Scorch bombs instead of lasers. |
Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
314
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 00:00:00 -
[21] - Quote
baltec1 wrote:Small gangs can take on big fleets, they just need the nuts to try.
yeah a small gang of supercarriers and titans can easily take on a big BS blob |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
390
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 00:35:00 -
[22] - Quote
I'd prefer introduction of a new module that sends out a fake signature to POS sensors and can only be fitted on cov op frigs.
To prevent exploitation, it deactivates as soon as any other ship enters the pos' grid. Disabling the mod is triggered by the ship entering grid, so people don't just have some afk ship sitting in POS shields.
POS defenses will ignore the ship as long as no other pilots - friendly or hostile - are entering grid.
The Cov Ops then activates a codebreaker on the pos, disabling its defenses and granting access to a certain percentage of silo space for a limited amount of time (e.g. five minutes). A POS gunner could of course still manually override and any hostile cap entering grid would of course reenable defenses instantly.
The rest of the gang warps in, picks up what it can and tries to gtfo, whereas SOV holders try everything to intercept and discourage the raiders and make them look for softer targets and less populated space.
Running a huge moongoo+bot wasteland, relying on 300 supercaps that only log in when a timer is due? Bad for you.
Have your space populated with active communities and players that can quickly form up highly mobile defensive gangs? The raiders will probably look for bot-wasteland instead.
Regular small gang fights guaranteed.
(disclaimer - only a rough idea - I'm at my second bottle of Merlot :P)
morons-áare recruiting. We're good at breeding! |
Wacktopia
Sicarius.
Legion of The Damned.
19
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 01:14:00 -
[23] - Quote
Nerf SC's. Oh wai... |
trexinatux
Bipedal Carnivore Club
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 01:37:00 -
[24] - Quote
1. Decreased costs to buy in for a PVP ship. I'd much rather use a bumper car than my BMW to engage in single PVP. You could add a really CHEAP new ship class. Something like a shuttle with guns, with prefit modules available in every station for INSTANT action.
2. Instant PVP "button".
3. Larger Player Base.
4. Sex appeal.
It is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. |
Large Collidable Object
morons.
400
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 01:41:00 -
[25] - Quote
trexinatux wrote:1. Decreased costs to buy in for a PVP ship. I'd much rather use a bumper car than my BMW to engage in single PVP. You could add a really CHEAP new ship class. Something like a shuttle with guns, with prefit modules available in every station for INSTANT action.
Rifter, saved fitting, buy in stacks...
Other than that, terrible ideas.
morons-áare recruiting. We're good at breeding! |
Lin Fatale
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 03:08:00 -
[26] - Quote
- "perfect intel"
--> if you are roaming, its hard to catch something, because you will be reported in intel channels
I am not saying, delete the local like in whs. because its boring if you never "see" someone else.
Also, if you dont know, where an enemy is, you cannot fight him.
So it should not be too hard to get some intel. It only should not be insta intel.
it should be like
1. only what you have on grid/dscan will be added to your local
2. everyone has his own local
3. if you jump into a system --> your local is empty
4. if you see someone on grid or dscan --> then he should be added to your local
5. if you dock, all ppl who are docked --> added to your local
6. if someone leave the system --> he should be deleted in local immediately
So if you have a gang, and you jump your scout in.
He is flying a bit around, dscanning. After 1 minute he has a good overview what / how many ppl are in this system.
The owner of the system, does not know that you are there, except he has a scout on the gate.
PPl who only sit in station/pos, cannot give intel anymore.
So you can ninja in a few jumps until someone really know that you are there.
You can hide parts of your fleets. Enemy scout jump in but has to gatecrash, he only saw what was on the gate.
Maybe 50% of your fleet was out of dscan range....
PPl have to talk to each other. The FC of a fleet has only the information of what the scout has told him.
because his local is still empty....so maybe more surprises when the enemy fleet warps in and the scout failed
sry that i am talking so much about local
but i think its a good thing between "perfect insta local" and "no local"
|
Tres Farmer
Gallente Federation Intelligence Service
14
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 03:36:00 -
[27] - Quote
More stuff to consider:
people can roam bigger areas too fast
- this leads to easy forming up of large gangs/blobs
- this leads to counters being able to form blobs to overwhelm the attacker
people can call in support via cyno too fast and easy
- counters can compromise a cap, super or whatnot
- attacker has to count that in and engages either himself in bigger numbers or doesn't engage at all
gate network produces bottlenecks
- gatecamps are essentially roadblocks and only a larger group will make it through
- small roaming gangs or individuals have to fly highly specialised ships to make it through, which then don't work for PvP work
targets are just not there
- there are no points of interest for individuals/small gangs in low/null that have a high enough incentive to be there and risk it
intel system sucks donkey balls
- dscan/overview/map/local/probing needs a new approach at how information about your surrounding is gathered and presented
- all kinds of problems here... |
DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 03:41:00 -
[28] - Quote
Question = Small gang PvP, what needs to happen to bring it back?
Answer = Have everyone stop playing in the forums and start playing in the game. |
Rage Cloud
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 04:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
You think your voice counts? Or is being heard? lol.....
I am also sick and tired of blobs. But what good will it do to put up a post that will never be taken seriously by the cms or whatever its name is, when the leader of one of the biggest, and imo the worst corps in Eve history,Goonscum, is a member of. Minati or whatever his name is..
As soon as they see a post that they do not like, they tell their members to spam and degrade the thread.
Eve is being ruled by the large corps and alliances. There is no way, these corps or alliances will let anything to happen to their blob, its that simple. |
Amro One
One.
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 04:38:00 -
[30] - Quote
He said raid.
Guess hes the only guy in a guild to. |
Masamune Dekoro
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
12
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 04:56:00 -
[31] - Quote
T-Jay Charante wrote:David Grogan wrote:T-Jay Charante wrote:Instanced battlefields, like most MMO's have managed to develop in the last decade. no because that breaks away from eve online being a single shard server Every mission you go to is instanced.
What game are you playing? |
T-Jay Charante
The Scope
Gallente Federation
10
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 05:00:00 -
[32] - Quote
Masamune Dekoro wrote:T-Jay Charante wrote:David Grogan wrote:T-Jay Charante wrote:Instanced battlefields, like most MMO's have managed to develop in the last decade. no because that breaks away from eve online being a single shard server Every mission you go to is instanced. What game are you playing?
Some terrible space game, you?
|
Skunk Gracklaw
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
297
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 05:47:00 -
[33] - Quote
Rage Cloud wrote:You think your voice counts? Or is being heard? lol.....
I am also sick and tired of blobs. But what good will it do to put up a post that will never be taken seriously by the cms or whatever its name is, when the leader of one of the biggest, and imo the worst corps in Eve history,Goonscum, is a member of. Minati or whatever his name is..
As soon as they see a post that they do not like, they tell their members to spam and degrade the thread.
Eve is being ruled by the large corps and alliances. There is no way, these corps or alliances will let anything to happen to their blob, its that simple.
Fantastic.
|
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
11
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 06:58:00 -
[34] - Quote
get rid of Wt0
that will bring back small gang pvp and piracy in lowsec (where small gang pvp happened).
Its not a fix, but its a start.
But it will not happen because people will cry too much. |
Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
23
|
Posted - 2011.10.23 14:31:00 -
[35] - Quote
Updated the OP with a few more questions generated by ideas from posters. Thanks for the constructive comments from most, and let's keep the discussion rolling. |
Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
25
|
Posted - 2011.10.25 20:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
Gonna bump this one last time, hopefully we can have more discussion before this thread dies. |
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