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Meeko Gloom
Meeko Gloom

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Posted - 2005.11.12 16:11:00 - [31]

for the moros did u count the 35 or soon to be 5 hvy drones


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Demons of Razgis
Meeko Gloom
Meeko Gloom
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities

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Posted - 2005.11.12 16:11:00 - [32]

for the moros did u count the 35 or soon to be 5 hvy drones


--------------------------

Guns dont Kill People
Drones Do
Toshiro Khan
Toshiro Khan

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Posted - 2005.11.12 17:25:00 - [33]

Well... having faced the dreads just before their releace on SiSi.. they do indeed do a lot of damage per volly rather then having a high DPS.

two examples would be the pheonix obliterating my mega in a single volly (3 torps) and seeing a naglfar getting a wreck of over 30k on a tanked raven.. effectivly popping it in a single shot. admittedly they was in siege mode at the time, but i have yet to see a gank-a-geddon reach wrecking hits that high.. or pop a BS in 1 volly.




Toshiro Khan
Toshiro Khan
Gallente

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Posted - 2005.11.12 17:25:00 - [34]

Well... having faced the dreads just before their releace on SiSi.. they do indeed do a lot of damage per volly rather then having a high DPS.

two examples would be the pheonix obliterating my mega in a single volly (3 torps) and seeing a naglfar getting a wreck of over 30k on a tanked raven.. effectivly popping it in a single shot. admittedly they was in siege mode at the time, but i have yet to see a gank-a-geddon reach wrecking hits that high.. or pop a BS in 1 volly.




j0sephine
j0sephine

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Posted - 2005.11.12 17:53:00 - [35]

"Well, if not for the sig radius issues with towers the Phoenix is more damaging than all but the Naglfar. Using raw DPS number for the guns ignores the fact that missiles always hit but that 3 of the variable damage results for guns are 0 damage. This means that all calculated gun DPS values should be reduced 37.5% to get comparable values to missiles."

Since when turrets are missing nearly 40% of shots against target that sits still within the gun's optimal? o.O

(this also presumes no shots are better than 'normal', which would offset possible damage loss from the 'scratches' and 'light hits'...)
j0sephine
j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers

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Posted - 2005.11.12 17:53:00 - [36]

"Well, if not for the sig radius issues with towers the Phoenix is more damaging than all but the Naglfar. Using raw DPS number for the guns ignores the fact that missiles always hit but that 3 of the variable damage results for guns are 0 damage. This means that all calculated gun DPS values should be reduced 37.5% to get comparable values to missiles."

Since when turrets are missing nearly 40% of shots against target that sits still within the gun's optimal? o.O

(this also presumes no shots are better than 'normal', which would offset possible damage loss from the 'scratches' and 'light hits'...)
Harry Voyager
Harry Voyager

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Posted - 2005.11.12 18:16:00 - [37]

There is a damage calculator in the Player Guide on this site, that takes into account sig radius and tracking issues. It is trivially easy to verify that at optimal ranges, guns do close to 90% of their maximum damage, even to small targets, and it takes very specific circumstances for a smaller target to be able to evade even heavy gunfire.

That being said, Dreadnaughts can't kill Dreadnaughts, in their current state. I think that speaks loudly to the issues with them, at the moment.

Harry Voyager
Harry Voyager
Harry Voyager
Obscurity LLC

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Posted - 2005.11.12 18:16:00 - [38]

There is a damage calculator in the Player Guide on this site, that takes into account sig radius and tracking issues. It is trivially easy to verify that at optimal ranges, guns do close to 90% of their maximum damage, even to small targets, and it takes very specific circumstances for a smaller target to be able to evade even heavy gunfire.

That being said, Dreadnaughts can't kill Dreadnaughts, in their current state. I think that speaks loudly to the issues with them, at the moment.

Harry Voyager
Hoozin
Hoozin

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Posted - 2005.11.12 18:27:00 - [39]

Originally by: Meeko Gloom
for the moros did u count the 35 or soon to be 5 hvy drones

Originally by: aeti
This doesn't tank into account drones, which are useless vs pos

That help?
---------------------------------
Hoozin
Hoozin
Grumpy Old Farts
Gruntfuttocks

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Posted - 2005.11.12 18:27:00 - [40]

Originally by: Meeko Gloom
for the moros did u count the 35 or soon to be 5 hvy drones

Originally by: aeti
This doesn't tank into account drones, which are useless vs pos

That help?
---------------------------------
Antic
Antic

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Posted - 2005.11.12 18:42:00 - [41]

is this taking into account the sig radious damage reduction to PoS that Citadel torps gets currently due to PoS borked Sig radius?
Antic
Antic
Caldari
Swedish Aerospace Inc

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Posted - 2005.11.12 18:42:00 - [42]

is this taking into account the sig radious damage reduction to PoS that Citadel torps gets currently due to PoS borked Sig radius?
j0sephine
j0sephine

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Posted - 2005.11.12 18:47:00 - [43]

"is this taking into account the sig radious damage reduction to PoS that Citadel torps gets currently due to PoS borked Sig radius?"

Nope, that's calculations of damage when shooting the large (1000m signature) POS, for both missiles and guns alike.
j0sephine
j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers

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Posted - 2005.11.12 18:47:00 - [44]

"is this taking into account the sig radious damage reduction to PoS that Citadel torps gets currently due to PoS borked Sig radius?"

Nope, that's calculations of damage when shooting the large (1000m signature) POS, for both missiles and guns alike.
Sarmaul
Sarmaul

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Posted - 2005.11.12 19:31:00 - [45]

Originally by: aeti
What i'm thinking is: aren't these values very low given the training time required and how hard they are to use? Have I made a mistake somewhere? (its rather late here atm)


put it in seige mode, and you can multiply all those by 5.

and OMG, a minmatar ship comes at the top of a damage dealing list. I'm so glad I've recently leart to love autocannons again :)


Originally by: Chowdown
We camp a lot
Sarmaul
Sarmaul
0utbreak

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Posted - 2005.11.12 19:31:00 - [46]

Originally by: aeti
What i'm thinking is: aren't these values very low given the training time required and how hard they are to use? Have I made a mistake somewhere? (its rather late here atm)


put it in seige mode, and you can multiply all those by 5.

and OMG, a minmatar ship comes at the top of a damage dealing list. I'm so glad I've recently leart to love autocannons again :)
j0sephine
j0sephine

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Posted - 2005.11.12 19:42:00 - [47]

"put it in seige mode, and you can multiply all those by 5."

These numbers are siege mode... ^^
j0sephine
j0sephine
Caldari
Reikoku
Band of Brothers

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Posted - 2005.11.12 19:42:00 - [48]

"put it in seige mode, and you can multiply all those by 5."

These numbers are siege mode... ^^
aeti
aeti

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Posted - 2005.11.12 19:56:00 - [49]

turns out meri may have slightly overestimated the geddon dps, should be around 1200

talking about the moros and , after the patch it will be able to deploy 5 sentry drones which will have the range to hit through the shield, so lots more damamge for them with that crazy bonus

I may have made a mistake with working these numbers out, so if somebody could check them it would be ace

oh and to the person that says that a geddon would be useless, when actually attacking a pos with a large number of people, you find that you tend to only get 1 gun shooting at you every few mins (the fire is spread out), and by the time the next shot hits you, the people you are working with will have fixed you up np, so damage > tanking
aeti
aeti
Band of Brothers

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Posted - 2005.11.12 19:56:00 - [50]

turns out meri may have slightly overestimated the geddon dps, should be around 1200

talking about the moros and , after the patch it will be able to deploy 5 sentry drones which will have the range to hit through the shield, so lots more damamge for them with that crazy bonus

I may have made a mistake with working these numbers out, so if somebody could check them it would be ace

oh and to the person that says that a geddon would be useless, when actually attacking a pos with a large number of people, you find that you tend to only get 1 gun shooting at you every few mins (the fire is spread out), and by the time the next shot hits you, the people you are working with will have fixed you up np, so damage > tanking
ArcticWolf
ArcticWolf

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Posted - 2005.11.12 20:38:00 - [51]

Edited by: ArcticWolf on 12/11/2005 20:38:02
The dreadnaught DPS outside of seige mode is way too low (vs battleships, i realise uour post is about POS), i did the figures in the first post i made stating 132 DPS, not by using the guns stats themselves, but doing extensive testing vs battleships, stationary and moving, to find diffrences, then averaged out the normal hit data. All dreadnaught skills at that date were lv 3... in siege mode that means i would do about 660 dps vs battleships.

For fun i went to test server and fit a gank setup, with the mid slots 2 webbers and 2 target painters, used the close range guns with EMP and thermal, then went into seige mode. As a result of my gank setup, i had the cap to run my rep nonstop in seige mode for about 2 mins max. I could tank only 12 battleships before i started loosing structure. Because of this gank setup i had no hardeners, just the rep. I did win the battle yes, but on tranquility who will fight a dread with 12 battleships? And who would take a dread vs 12 and not have any hardeners? I did the same battle more or less, with a more sustainable tank and 2 hardeners, with this i was barley able to kill the battleships and stood a higher chance of dieing due to reinforcments could come in.

oh heres my link http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=241653
ArcticWolf
ArcticWolf

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Posted - 2005.11.12 20:38:00 - [52]

Edited by: ArcticWolf on 12/11/2005 20:38:02
The dreadnaught DPS outside of seige mode is way too low (vs battleships, i realise uour post is about POS), i did the figures in the first post i made stating 132 DPS, not by using the guns stats themselves, but doing extensive testing vs battleships, stationary and moving, to find diffrences, then averaged out the normal hit data. All dreadnaught skills at that date were lv 3... in siege mode that means i would do about 660 dps vs battleships.

For fun i went to test server and fit a gank setup, with the mid slots 2 webbers and 2 target painters, used the close range guns with EMP and thermal, then went into seige mode. As a result of my gank setup, i had the cap to run my rep nonstop in seige mode for about 2 mins max. I could tank only 12 battleships before i started loosing structure. Because of this gank setup i had no hardeners, just the rep. I did win the battle yes, but on tranquility who will fight a dread with 12 battleships? And who would take a dread vs 12 and not have any hardeners? I did the same battle more or less, with a more sustainable tank and 2 hardeners, with this i was barley able to kill the battleships and stood a higher chance of dieing due to reinforcments could come in.

oh heres my link http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=241653
---
I'm going to relate every post I make to Force Recon Ships being bugged.

Force Recon Ships Bugged
Tobiaz
Tobiaz

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Posted - 2005.11.12 22:05:00 - [53]

Originally by: Tovarishch


That aside... Dread DPS still seems very low. The cost and skill training dedication required to fly one is intense. The payoff shouldn't be a 'one ship to rule them all' scenario. However, the current state of Dreads leaves quite a bit to be desired. They are a multi-billion isk ship which requires a tremendous amount of training time... and they are designed to take down POSes which are cheap, easy to replace, strategically useful, and very, very profitable.




Laughing

I wouldn't know, but what I do know is that if you mention that in the Stations, Starbases and Outposts forum, you better have a fire extinguisher ready.



Who put those rats in the fridge?!
Tobiaz
Tobiaz
Spacerats

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Posted - 2005.11.12 22:05:00 - [54]

Originally by: Tovarishch


That aside... Dread DPS still seems very low. The cost and skill training dedication required to fly one is intense. The payoff shouldn't be a 'one ship to rule them all' scenario. However, the current state of Dreads leaves quite a bit to be desired. They are a multi-billion isk ship which requires a tremendous amount of training time... and they are designed to take down POSes which are cheap, easy to replace, strategically useful, and very, very profitable.




Laughing

I wouldn't know, but what I do know is that if you mention that in the Stations, Starbases and Outposts forum, you better have a fire extinguisher ready.


MOS DEF
MOS DEF

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Posted - 2005.11.13 10:52:00 - [55]

I think they need a boost myself but the threadstarters comparison is just a bad joke. You compare them to a fully heatsinked armageddon that has nothing to tank at all.
MOS DEF
MOS DEF
0utbreak

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Posted - 2005.11.13 10:52:00 - [56]

I think they need a boost myself but the threadstarters comparison is just a bad joke. You compare them to a fully heatsinked armageddon that has nothing to tank at all.
F'nog
F'nog

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Posted - 2005.11.13 11:45:00 - [57]

I think Dreads should have a low DPS but a high alpha strike. So they should be able to inflict a great deal of damage in one shot that renders tanking ineffective, but not do as much damage over time compared to their size as other ship types.

So if you had a gank ship setup you could do somewhat close (but probably less than now, which RMR should fix) to the same damage as a gank ship over time, but each shot should so overwhelm you that you either die, warp out, or the support fleet can finish you off.

So, in siege mode, the Dread can tank like nobody's business, but do less damage to a moving ship, or do a lot of damage to a moving ship but be unable to tank to its maximum ability.

Thus against a POS it's a great weapon, as it can absorb the damage it sustains without too much worry and still take it down more quickly than a reasonably-sized fleet. But against other ships it can really hurt them but need to be defensive so that it doesn't get ganked quickly.

This has a nice balance that it has the choice of going against POSes with a good chance of success if the pilot is smart (and unsupported by other dreads) or be able to take out enemy fleets so long as it is well defended.

Right now it seems to be able to do neither, which is a real shame.

But what do I know, I'm enebriated and tired, and may be completely wrong. Smile




Sig modified due to xenophobic comments -Iacon
F'nog
F'nog
Amarr
Celestial Horizon Corp.
Valainaloce

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Posted - 2005.11.13 11:45:00 - [58]

I think Dreads should have a low DPS but a high alpha strike. So they should be able to inflict a great deal of damage in one shot that renders tanking ineffective, but not do as much damage over time compared to their size as other ship types.

So if you had a gank ship setup you could do somewhat close (but probably less than now, which RMR should fix) to the same damage as a gank ship over time, but each shot should so overwhelm you that you either die, warp out, or the support fleet can finish you off.

So, in siege mode, the Dread can tank like nobody's business, but do less damage to a moving ship, or do a lot of damage to a moving ship but be unable to tank to its maximum ability.

Thus against a POS it's a great weapon, as it can absorb the damage it sustains without too much worry and still take it down more quickly than a reasonably-sized fleet. But against other ships it can really hurt them but need to be defensive so that it doesn't get ganked quickly.

This has a nice balance that it has the choice of going against POSes with a good chance of success if the pilot is smart (and unsupported by other dreads) or be able to take out enemy fleets so long as it is well defended.

Right now it seems to be able to do neither, which is a real shame.

But what do I know, I'm enebriated and tired, and may be completely wrong. Smile




I used to get It.
Then It changed.
Now I don't even know what It is.
Ithildin
Ithildin

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Posted - 2005.11.13 12:13:00 - [59]

I assume those numbers on the dreads are without damage mods?

A Pulsegeddon does about 405 dps before damage mods, using Megapulse II and Antimatter ammunitions with Large Energy Turret V, Large Pulse Laser V, Rapid Fire V, Surgical Strike V, and Amarr Battleship V.

Then again, a dreadnought needs to sustain it's tank for quite a while which means it won't be able to fit a gank fitting (the Revelation, for example, has really bad capacitor)

I wish there were more fun skills with Memory as primary. Poor Intaki combat people with low perception...
Ithildin
Ithildin
Gallente
The Corporation
Cruel Intentions

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Posted - 2005.11.13 12:13:00 - [60]

I assume those numbers on the dreads are without damage mods?

A Pulsegeddon does about 405 dps before damage mods, using Megapulse II and Antimatter ammunitions with Large Energy Turret V, Large Pulse Laser V, Rapid Fire V, Surgical Strike V, and Amarr Battleship V.

Then again, a dreadnought needs to sustain it's tank for quite a while which means it won't be able to fit a gank fitting (the Revelation, for example, has really bad capacitor)
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