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Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
144
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Posted - 2013.06.12 07:48:00 -
[31] - Quote
Just apply full broker fees every time you change order. Problem solved: a couple of order changes and it ceases to be profitable for seller/buyer. Those with standings and skills can play undercutting/overpricing game a little longer than 1-day trade bots.
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote: The thing is, if you chose the 0.01 isk more expensive sell order, you are actually buying from the cheaper one, just giving him more money than he asked for.
Edit: @Psychoactive: You were faster, and this is the exact reason why the "do it yourself" method doesn't quite cut it. Also, outbidding by 1% myself doesn't prevent other from outbidding me by 0.01 isk afterwards.
Seriously? That's how it works? That's absolute crap. Why would your purchase go to a different seller when you clicked on someone elses sell order to make the purchase? That's not right. If that's the case, then THAT needs to change first off. That is anti-RMT solution and protection against Average price manipulation. |
Iris Bravemount
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
247
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Posted - 2013.06.12 11:08:00 -
[32] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Just apply full broker fees every time you change order. Problem solved: a couple of order changes and it ceases to be profitable for seller/buyer. Those with standings and skills can play undercutting/overpricing game a little longer than 1-day trade bots. FoxFire Ayderan wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote: The thing is, if you chose the 0.01 isk more expensive sell order, you are actually buying from the cheaper one, just giving him more money than he asked for.
Edit: @Psychoactive: You were faster, and this is the exact reason why the "do it yourself" method doesn't quite cut it. Also, outbidding by 1% myself doesn't prevent other from outbidding me by 0.01 isk afterwards.
Seriously? That's how it works? That's absolute crap. Why would your purchase go to a different seller when you clicked on someone elses sell order to make the purchase? That's not right. If that's the case, then THAT needs to change first off. That is anti-RMT solution and protection against Average price manipulation in large hubs.
Now that's constructive input!
I haven't thought about the actual cost of the modification. It would make people think a bit more before they modify their orders and reward skilled characters more. I like it.
Also, could you explain how the current system protects against RMT and average price manipulation?
Why active tank bonuses are bad for you |
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
147
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Posted - 2013.06.12 11:18:00 -
[33] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:Also, could you explain how the current system protects against RMT and average price manipulation?
To be able to RMT via market one should be able to complete specific orders (usually done with worthless overpriced things). With current market system you cannot do so, preventing iskbuyer from receiving the isk from that particular order. It can be done in unpopulated systems, but then they are easy to trace. Same applies to average price - you cannot buy own overpriced things again and again and again as that will affect average prices. |
Iris Bravemount
Fweddit I Whip My Slaves Back and Forth
247
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Posted - 2013.06.12 11:22:00 -
[34] - Quote
Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote:Also, could you explain how the current system protects against RMT and average price manipulation?
To be able to RMT via market one should be able to complete specific orders (usually done with worthless overpriced things). With current market system you cannot do so, preventing iskbuyer from receiving the isk from that particular order. Same applies to average price - you cannot buy own overpriced things again and again and again as that will affect average prices.
Yep, makes sense. Thank you! Why active tank bonuses are bad for you |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
578
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Posted - 2013.06.12 13:05:00 -
[35] - Quote
why??
People who play more (spend more time on the game) win market wars; people who think their own mined minerals are free loose - nothing wrong with this! |
Akturous
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
146
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Posted - 2013.06.12 13:21:00 -
[36] - Quote
Increasing time limit on market order modification to one hour would help a lot. Vote Item Heck One for CSM8 |
Mmkay
Northern Flemish Bastards Inc Yulai Federation
1
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Posted - 2013.06.12 13:22:00 -
[37] - Quote
The Eve economy is almost entirely unregulated. It was designed and implemented that way. Adding regulations (minimum order modification amounts) is completely against what Eve is about and would set precedence for further regulation. Many human traders play the 0.01 ISK game simply because it is profitable.
Bots on the other hand are a problem that should be dealt with. But saying that every player that undercuts by 0.01 ISK is a bot is simply false and over-dramatic. |
Adunh Slavy
947
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Posted - 2013.06.12 15:23:00 -
[38] - Quote
Allowing the number of trades players can have at any one time would also stop the 0.01. Multiply the number of trades a player can have by a factor of 100 and the 0.01 ISK will be history.
This will make some people whine though, those that play the trade game on nothing but spread alone. |
Maximus Aerelius
PROPHET OF ENIGMA
164
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Posted - 2013.06.12 16:00:00 -
[39] - Quote
TL:DR but:
And this is how prices plummet all over New Eden because of the "big reducers" who knock of 5% to sell their items more cheaply but don't actually realise they are flattening the market out with it. Reducing by .01ISK is the most cost effective and balanced way to support the markets in the different regions. You pay 100ISK for the privilege of lowering it that amount so it is also a small ISK sink.
The OP should've said that once an item is listed at a certain price it cannot be modified unless cancelled and and re-added to the market with all the associated costs. That'd kill the .01ISK price changes and it's just as ludicrous as this idea.
-1 OP, just -1.
EDIT:
Also I like to play the "Market Wars" Mini-game whereby I sit and constantly click between my items on market to outbid the person who just tried to be the cheapest in the region...by .01 ISK and within 30 seconds while I mine. This entertains me, keeps them focused on the market and they migh tbe bored mining and llike this mini-game as well. Why, oh why would you want to take that away from me. It's what breaks up my D-Scan > Ore Hold > Jet Can > Market Check > D-Scan ritual My Feature\Idea:-á Fast Character Switching "XP Stylee"
Here's my tear jar > |_| < Fill 'er up! |
Hopelesshobo
Red Dwarf Mining Corporation space weaponry and trade
26
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Posted - 2013.06.12 17:25:00 -
[40] - Quote
People will always underbid someone by the minimum amount. It's simple, they want their product to move so they set it at the lowest price, they however still want to maximize profit so they set it as high as they can while still maintaining the lowest offer. If you drop your value down 1-5%, that is just you cutting into your profit margins. You have to look at how many items the seller/buyer is attempting to move to see if it's even worth undercutting/overbidding them. If you adjust your price to compensate for someone making a better offer, that is your CHOICE. You can let your offer stand and just wait for their products to move before your do. Anytime someone modifies a market order, they get charged for it.
The only thing that will change from what the OP is suggesting is his thread title will go from 0.01 isk war to 1% war. If you increase the cost in modifying orders, smart people will only seed the market with a portion of their goods and undercut themselves if they deem that is is justified (which probably happens anyway).
If you do not like getting underbid/overbid by 0.01 isk, then only sell to purchase orders and only purchase through sell orders. |
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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
717
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Posted - 2013.06.12 19:05:00 -
[41] - Quote
FoxFire Ayderan wrote: It's been a policy of mine for quite some time, (here and in other games) to never buy from someone who's undercut the sell price of another by a single ISK or less.
I find it insulting that those people think that THEY should get the sale and the only deal they want to cut me is an extra ISK off the nearest price.
Of course until more people take the policy position I have on such practices, I suppose they will keep doing it.
I think you should know that the person with the lowest bid always gets the isk. You are actually giving them more money. Learned this the hard way when a corp mate bought a 500mil bcs in a station I was selling BCSes in and almost got kicked for scamming.
The reason it is done is as an antiscamming measure I suppose so people don't accidently buy 1000 missiles for 100mil https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Ordellus
ORI Ground Forces
19
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Posted - 2013.06.15 08:22:00 -
[42] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:I think you should know that the person with the lowest bid always gets the isk. You are actually giving them more money.
This isn't right at all. I just tested it.
1) right clicked specific sell order or specific location 2) choose 'buy this item' or however it's worded 3) that exact amount was removed (note- not the amount for the lowest in the system) 4) Item was deposited at the station the sell order I choose was location in (note- not the location of the lowest sell order)
I tested it multiple time, with different modules, at different locations.
You buy from the specific order you choose to buy from.
Now if you just do the quick buy.... that could be another story.
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Kirimeena D'Zbrkesbris
Republic Military Tax Avoiders
155
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Posted - 2013.06.15 09:17:00 -
[43] - Quote
Ordellus wrote:Commander Ted wrote:I think you should know that the person with the lowest bid always gets the isk. You are actually giving them more money. This isn't right at all. I just tested it. 1) right clicked specific sell order or specific location 2) choose 'buy this item' or however it's worded 3) that exact amount was removed (note- not the amount for the lowest in the system) 4) Item was deposited at the station the sell order I choose was location in (note- not the location of the lowest sell order) I tested it multiple time, with different modules, at different locations. You buy from the specific order you choose to buy from. Now if you just do the quick buy.... that could be another story. In case of multiple orders in same station you choose to buy from - lowest sell/highest buy orders are always completed 1st |
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
102
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Posted - 2013.06.15 12:08:00 -
[44] - Quote
Useless idea. Nothing stops you from undercutting 0.01 punks more aggressively. In fact that's how to deal with it. Undercut to a point where either they leave you alone or buy up your stock. |
FoxFire Ayderan
65
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Posted - 2013.06.15 19:51:00 -
[45] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:
I think you should know that the person with the lowest bid always gets the isk. You are actually giving them more money. Learned this the hard way when a corp mate bought a 500mil bcs in a station I was selling BCSes in and almost got kicked for scamming.
The reason it is done is as an antiscamming measure I suppose so people don't accidently buy 1000 missiles for 100mil
I don't know if there are truly legitimate and urgent reasons why a buyer is not allowed to buy from the specific sell order they want, the reasons I've heard so far don't sound all that compelling to me.
However, if CCP deems it absolutely necessary that when you make a purchase the sale always must go to the lowest priced sell order in station (which again I find dubious), then I'm afraid I have to insist that the sell interface ALWAYS give you that lowest price when making the purchase.
Why would it allow you to say (accidentally) click on an order for an item priced at 1000 ISK per unit greater than the lowest sell price, then allow the purchase to complete and that sale goes to the guy with the lowest sell price with a 1000 ISK per unit overpayment to him? If the guy with the lowest price always gets the sale, then the purchaser should only be paying the price that seller is charging.
It's also highly misleading to those like myself who intentionally try to purchase from the seller who's selling at 100 ISK per unit rather than the guy selling at 99.99 ISK per unit, for our purchase to go to the guy we don't like with extra profit to him. There should be some indication that your purchase is going to that seller (like the price displaying the lowest price).
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Black Dranzer
260
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:18:00 -
[46] - Quote
FoxFire Ayderan wrote:Seriously? That's how it works?
That's absolute crap. Yeah, it really is.
I honestly had a similar policy and was disgruntled to learn that I did not in fact have a choice on who I give my money to. |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries Solar Assault Fleet
557
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Posted - 2013.06.15 20:46:00 -
[47] - Quote
0,01 isking isn't very hard, nor does it take any bots.
The interval between market order updates are 5 minutes, so it takes a simple timer and a good book or video.
So every 5 minutes you check your orders, if needed adjust, otherwise go back to book/video.
The only reason to detest that behaviour is if you want more payment for your goods, now, and you can't be arsed to even bother with looking at it at 5 minute intervals.
But nothing in eve comes for free.
And selecting which sell order you want to buy from, even if it's more expensive, isn't allowed since it opens for money laundering and RMT.
If you have a dealer you want to deal with then there's contracts (or direct trade).
CCP Eterne: Silly player, ALL devs are evil. CCP Fozzie: When Veritas describes a programming challenge as "very hard" I tend to believe him.
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Adunh Slavy
957
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:21:00 -
[48] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote: The reason it is done is as an antiscamming measure I suppose so people don't accidently buy 1000 missiles for 100mil
Actually, it only half works. If you type in 100 million as the price, and try to buy the 100 missiles from the low seller, you buy from the low seller and still pay the 100 million.
CCP doesn't have the ability, apparently, to code a while loop that can execute multiple atomic transactions from a sorted list. Of course every commodities and stock brokerage in the world knows how to do this, but it is beyond CCP's ability.
Oh, and some Eve players think that such stupidity in the GUI's bullet proofing makes eve hard and elite, hence idiocy remains. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
548
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Posted - 2013.06.15 21:51:00 -
[49] - Quote
You lose your market deposit when you take the order off. This is what fixes the 0.01 ISK game.
What appears to you like lots of people taking their orders down and reposting them slightly cheaper is actually an active market in which people are adding more orders to sell and are just barely undercutting the competition. If you sell on a price upswing, you don't have to undercut at all to sell, just gotta be patient and wait till the price goes above what you set. If the price is on a downswing, then you probably need to undercut significantly and sell fast. And if you have good market prediction skills, you can just set your price at the upper end of what you expect people to pay at some point in the next 3 months, and leave it there till it sells. If you catch a market that has a buying spree every once in a while, then you want to have an order up a bit over the competition when that happens. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
Anna Djan
Banana Corp
10
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Posted - 2013.06.17 12:38:00 -
[50] - Quote
I think it's a great idea.
It would add more dynamics to the market rather than using a 0.01 isk bot. Market shifts would be more interesting to watch and make money from.
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Commander Ted
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
723
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Posted - 2013.06.17 19:16:00 -
[51] - Quote
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Actually, it only half works. If you type in 100 million as the price, and try to buy the 100 missiles from the low seller, you buy from the low seller and still pay the 100 million.
That is what I just said. It discourages people from doing that because then they will make no money. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
554
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Posted - 2013.06.17 20:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
It works against the scam in which someone puts up a sell price for an "undercut" at 900x the price. If someone buys it, they still lose the money, but the person who placed the order does not get the money if there are enough orders below theirs. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
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