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Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
174
|
Posted - 2013.06.13 22:18:00 -
[31] - Quote
Vassal Zeren wrote:Zaknussem wrote: Making Faction weapons cheaper? That's due to the market, YOU go tell the market how to behave. You don't understand, yet you are sarcastic. Know more before being a smart alec. The prices of all faction things are directly a result of the amount of LP and tags need to be exchanged for them. Lower that amount and you guarantee a lower price. Your other declarations go out the window if you don't even understand that, which is funny considering other people have already posted how this work in the comments.
Yes and no. Even if LP prices dropped via a tag reevaluation (which I would support, the stores are using criteria that are way outdated) the market now has an established price. In an inflated economy. Price change with tag adjustment won't fix human greed. For players like me this would work. I can spam me some LP's and I can hit the stores for personal use (tags currently make this not possible even for me). Your noob won't be running level 4's like a 3 year player like me with time tested mission power grinding ships/fits and tactics however.
Sadly this is how markets work. Example, I run a 2 X Gist B SSB tengu I go back to alot. Same setup and mods I have for years. For you or a noob to buy this setup today (just SSB) is like 120mil per shield booster in todays market last I hit up jita. I got my boosters years ago at the low low price of 20 mil a pop. I used to run these in pvp on AF's in fact, at 20 mil why the hell not if you are making good isk 0.0 ratting. Market said oh, people like gist now, lets drain them wallets.
rest of this stuff....faction guns get their bene's. It may not be what you like, but they are there. Another example: I have a love/hate with rokh and I try to do fun things with it in pve time to time when I am on the love side. t2 425 II rails even with my max fitting skills gives me PG issues out the ass with certain off the wall builds I have in eft.
If I replace those t2's with CN's....I have lots og PG to play with. The pg this gets me would not have me missing t2 ammo (I don't use it in pve anyway,) and I would not miss the large spec 4 bonus as these builds give me other more desirable effects. I just don't want to roll around in a gank bait rokh with 700-800 mil in guns alone lol.
And I am a cheap mission runner. So I settled for plan B...a MJD T2 425 II rokh sniping with uranium /plutonium. Sure the tracking sucks. But atter a hop cruisers fly straight into you to instapop at 90 km's. |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
42
|
Posted - 2013.06.14 01:25:00 -
[32] - Quote
Thanks for the well thought out response. I was just pointing out that the market isn't completely random and that it can be influenced by the rarity or abundance of things. For example a dramatic increase in those small dead space SB's would certainly lower their price. So this thing that people seem to be saying about the market being fickle and cost has nothing to do with balancing is untrue. I don't deny that a player run economy has trends like a real one, I'm saying that unlike a real one, CCP can rebalance the abundancy of things easily if it so desires. That said the problem of inflation seems to be greater than just the problem of faction weapons. The truth is the EVE economy is unstable because it is inflating quite rapidly. Just think of the price of a PLEX in 10 years! So I hope CCP is on the ball with this stuff. |
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
53
|
Posted - 2013.06.14 01:50:00 -
[33] - Quote
Vassal Zeren wrote:Ok, I think you are not understanding my points so I will rephrase them because you have a cool bio.
1) The newbie point is obviously not to say that we should make everything accessible to newbies. Just the opposite. I was pointing out (and I still am) that the idea that cost does not balance things is wrong, because in the case of a newbie the only thing thats stopping him from fitting a faction module is cost. Do see my point? He can use the module so skillpoints do not factor into the balancing in this case, merely cost. Therefore cost plays a factor in balancing, thats all I'm saying.
2) This should be obvious but I guess it isn't. BY ITS VERY NATURE price determines cost effectiveness. That is what cost effectiveness IS. How expensive is something vs how useful it is. This is perfectly related to my point which is that there is not a significant benefit (and indeed in many cases there is an uncompensated drawback) for using faction weaponry. Perhaps you thought when I said cost effectiveness I meant cheap. That would be incorrect. I am talking about the principle of cost vs use. This principle is proven when you see tons of tengus with CNB. There is a use for the CNB to compensate for the cost. There is not for faction launchers, in general.
3) As stated Previously, faction mods ARE cost effective. They are not cheap. But there is about a 100 dps increase from them at least for Tengu's which means less time doing sites more safety and more profit. Cost effectiveness can be summarized like this: Does it make sense to buy this item at this price? Can my money be better spent elsewhere? In the case of the CNB's the answer is NO! CNB's are the best mod for you money if you want to add faction gear to you ship. The answer to CNHML is YES! your money can be spent better in a million other areas! CN HML and other faction weapons are overpriced and inferior to T2 in the vast majority of situations. No I understand, I'm jsut not sure you do.
Faction mods in general aren't cost effective, therefore talking about cost-effectiveness in terms of faction mods is rather moot. There are very limited circumstances where they are (points and webs for example are arguably worth it when used in combination with links). Some people get faction mods because they're easier to fit. Navy Launchers for example are easier to fit. The rest I'd wager simply do so because they're spacerich and can afford to so... why not?
In terms of your tengu example. How many Navy BCUs do you need to get that extra 100DPS? 3? 4? You could buy a brand new fully t2 (aside from rigs) tengu with that money. In otherwords you can dual box your alt with the 2nd tengu and literally get double your dps. That's cost-effective. Faction mods not so much.
What you're really saying is faction guns/launchers are even more ridulously cost-inefficient than other faction mods. In which case you're right. But then its a tricky thing to balance in comparison to its relative low importance. In either case, letting t1 use specialisation skills or t2 ammo is something I strongly disagree with since I don't think T2s, given their requirements need a nerf, which is the real effect of your proposition. I perhaps agree to lowering their LP store requirements to assemble, but that's about it. |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
43
|
Posted - 2013.06.14 14:58:00 -
[34] - Quote
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:Vassal Zeren wrote:Ok, I think you are not understanding my points so I will rephrase them because you have a cool bio.
1) The newbie point is obviously not to say that we should make everything accessible to newbies. Just the opposite. I was pointing out (and I still am) that the idea that cost does not balance things is wrong, because in the case of a newbie the only thing thats stopping him from fitting a faction module is cost. Do see my point? He can use the module so skillpoints do not factor into the balancing in this case, merely cost. Therefore cost plays a factor in balancing, thats all I'm saying.
2) This should be obvious but I guess it isn't. BY ITS VERY NATURE price determines cost effectiveness. That is what cost effectiveness IS. How expensive is something vs how useful it is. This is perfectly related to my point which is that there is not a significant benefit (and indeed in many cases there is an uncompensated drawback) for using faction weaponry. Perhaps you thought when I said cost effectiveness I meant cheap. That would be incorrect. I am talking about the principle of cost vs use. This principle is proven when you see tons of tengus with CNB. There is a use for the CNB to compensate for the cost. There is not for faction launchers, in general.
3) As stated Previously, faction mods ARE cost effective. They are not cheap. But there is about a 100 dps increase from them at least for Tengu's which means less time doing sites more safety and more profit. Cost effectiveness can be summarized like this: Does it make sense to buy this item at this price? Can my money be better spent elsewhere? In the case of the CNB's the answer is NO! CNB's are the best mod for you money if you want to add faction gear to you ship. The answer to CNHML is YES! your money can be spent better in a million other areas! CN HML and other faction weapons are overpriced and inferior to T2 in the vast majority of situations. No I understand, I'm jsut not sure you do. Faction mods in general aren't cost effective, therefore talking about cost-effectiveness in terms of faction mods is rather moot. There are very limited circumstances where they are (points and webs for example are arguably worth it when used in combination with links). Some people get faction mods because they're easier to fit. Navy Launchers for example are easier to fit. The rest I'd wager simply do so because they're spacerich and can afford to so... why not? In terms of your tengu example. How many Navy BCUs do you need to get that extra 100DPS? 3? 4? You could buy a brand new fully t2 (aside from rigs) tengu with that money. In otherwords you can dual box your alt with the 2nd tengu and literally get double your dps. That's cost-effective. Faction mods not so much. What you're really saying is faction guns/launchers are even more ridiculously cost-inefficient than other faction mods. In which case you're right. But then its a tricky thing to balance in comparison to its relative low importance. In either case, letting t1 use specialisation skills or t2 ammo is something I strongly disagree with since I don't think T2s, given their requirements need a nerf, which is the real effect of your proposition. I perhaps agree to lowering their LP store requirements to assemble, but that's about it.
I disagree about the cost effectiveness of faction BCUs. Since my experience is mainly in wormholes I'll give an example from a C3 wh. You can farm a C3 site in 1 faction BCU tengu in about 15 minutes. It takes about 25 minutes in a T2 fit Tengu. Now you get about 50 million on average for 1 c3 site. So in an hour with the faction Tengu you have received 200 million vs in an hour with the non faction Tengu you have a little over 50 million. Yes the initial investment is considerate but it is still worth it-- which is why people buy CN BCU's. They don't buy the launchers.
As for dual boxing, that is not a valid comparison because you conveniently left out the added cost of paying for 2 plexes instead of 1 or an extra 15 dollars per month. I don't think when arguing over game balance it is apt to compare something that would require paying for an extra account. CCP definitely doesn't balance things based on whether or not people will dual box.
Also 3 CN BCU cost 300 million. A tengu is 570 with rigs. There is another point I'd like to make: necessity. In some cases the extra DPS that CN BCU bring is necessary for the operation such as farming C5 sites with as few RR tengus as possible (if you don't have many guys) the extra dps will keep you alive by killing the sleeps faster than they can neut you. You can't say that about the missile launchers. So the ballistics have a role to play and the faction missile launcher role, while it may exist is pretty narrow. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
457
|
Posted - 2013.06.14 15:16:00 -
[35] - Quote
Faction guns are the only faction item class where T2 completely outclasses faction.
Most egregious are the blasters, where meta 3 and 4 have more optimal.
There is no reason they can't require T2 skills to load T2 ammo, just the same as they require skills to load defenders or FOF missiles in launchers.
Caldari/DG launchers are the exception
Faction weapons need a boost. Either to base stats (moar optimal+falloff+damage), or through applying T2 attributes to them (load T2 ammo if skills allow, let T2 skills benefit faction weapons).
I'll keep making these suggestions until CCP gets around to module rebalance (a long time given the ship rebalance that still has a lot of work left) |
PavlikX
You are in da lock
73
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 15:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
System T1 (meta0)--->Meta1-4--->Meta8--->T2 (meta5)--->Meta11... is obviously broken It should be 0--->1-4--->5--->8--->11 How? Posible solutions: 1. Allow T2 ammo to be used 2. Allow specialisations to give their bonuses to the 8 and 11, but without that specialisation skills in prequirements 3. Boost basic specs (each faction can boost it's own spec greatly, meantime officers boosts few specs) 4. Decrease fitting and cap demands
Personnaly I like those combinations Navy weapons p.2 and p.4 with slight p.3 Pirate weapons p.2 and p.3 with slight p.4 Officer weapons p.1, 2, 3 and slight p.4 or 1,2,4 and 3.
Another option is to bring new skills, available in LP shops of factions and exploration, increasing stats of faction ammo and weapons. For example skill Amarr Navy large pulse specialisation works only with Amarr navy large pulses, but gives no T2 ammo usage. This option can replace p.2 according to the faction weapons |
Naomi Anthar
Loza Szydercow Li3 Federation
59
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 15:57:00 -
[37] - Quote
It's pathethic that for some (insert word describing some clueless idiot) really do think that faction guns shouldn't be better than t2.
Why?
Because it's against entire fitting theory created by devs. Look at almost every single module except weapons and you will see that faction stuff is BETTER. It is intended to be VASTLY BETTER. Because it's harder to acquire , more expensive and often produced (via lore) by SUPERIOR to tech 2 technology. The only people who are against faction guns/launchers/drones (yes they suck aswell compared to cost) are manufacturers who do T2 stuff. They fear that suddenly people would mount faction guns (tho they wouldnt ... its expensive after all) , and people from FW would earn thier money (buying faction guns from store).
Truth is that if someone THINKS it's easy to get for example faction gun - i can give someone entire day for farming and lets see how many guns he can dish out from rats. Very often it will be 0 guns.
Damn meta 8 and more is supposed to outclass meta 5 by all means. If you are against it, then i vote for t0 and t1 stuff to be better than meta 5 (aka tech II). Beacause WHY NOT. Then i will drink your tears. |
Aston Martin DB5
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 17:39:00 -
[38] - Quote
Fking NO! You are basically advocating golden ammo and pay to win. Dumb dumb dumb. Players that have trained t2 should have the advantage with damage output for their ship even if the player has implants.
If you disagree then remove skill training in the game. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
830
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 17:42:00 -
[39] - Quote
Tchulen wrote:Personally, I think that faction weapons should be buffed to make them competitive with Tech II but rather than allow the use of tech II ammo they should have a bonus to using the same faction's faction ammo in order to give them a little bit more dps than tech II guns and tech II ammo.
In a players driven game content and economy you want NPC stuff to be superior?
No, this would be bad. Why spend hundreds or thousands of hours training tons of skills to build/invent Modules requiring far more training than NPC ones just to build lower value items?
It's a player driven economy and content, officer and A-B-X type modules are already far powerful than they should be. Now if the idea behind it is to make it so a each item used on whatever ship from the very same faction brings a small bonus on top so that if you want a space pinata with awesome bonus, why not, worth the gank at least.
Every change to NPC stuff or players stuff must keep this "lei motiv": players create the content and the items, NPC stuff should be a simple bling to cater to poor mindless red cross shooting people that will never do anything else whatever the game is than farm, farm farm farm farm and still farm NPC crap.
Notice I'm not saying it needs to be nerf, except industry/market/high sec POS slots, but NPC items are already far too good as they are:
want a 109km point on your Lachesis arazu? -RF or True sancha for 99km
Want webs at sniper ranges? true sancha or Fed Navy
Ammo/Probes/Cap booster charges
Navy Drones
Probe launchers/Cap injectors/neutralizers
Shields extenders and hardeners/passive resists
Armor plates and hardeners/platings
MWD's and Afterburners
Pirate ships worth a billion not even requiring the amount of minerals of an old Tier 3 BS but the same of a Tier 1 BS for far better performances in all aspects.
And the list goes on and on about modules frequently used in PVP that are already far too good compared with player build items. PVE is not and should never be a reference for balance, PVP does since it's what this game is about.
Faction guns are fantastic already, they don't need more buffs in any aspect.
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Naomi Anthar
Loza Szydercow Li3 Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 17:43:00 -
[40] - Quote
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:Fking NO! You are basically advocating golden ammo and pay to win. Dumb dumb dumb. Players that have trained t2 should have the advantage with damage output for their ship even if the player has implants.
If you disagree then remove skill training in the game.
No pay to win ? Then i say T2 is too expensive too ! I want to roam around in meta 0 stuff pwning and it must be as strong as officers stuff !! No pay to win !!! meta 0 invu must give 50% resists as Estamel !!! NO PAY TO WIN !!
Dude please biomass for your own good... |
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Aston Martin DB5
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 17:45:00 -
[41] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:Aston Martin DB5 wrote:Fking NO! You are basically advocating golden ammo and pay to win. Dumb dumb dumb. Players that have trained t2 should have the advantage with damage output for their ship even if the player has implants.
If you disagree then remove skill training in the game. No pay to win ? Then i say T2 is too expensive too ! I want to roam around in meta 0 stuff pwning and it must be as strong as officers stuff !! No pay to win !!! meta 0 invu must give 50% resists as Estamel !!! NO PAY TO WIN !! Dude please biomass for your own good...
Not sure what I had just read there. Please point me to where there was one complete sentence. Dumb post along with dumb logic!
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Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
334
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 17:48:00 -
[42] - Quote
yall continuously miss the tag bottleneck that most of the faction guns suffer from.
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Naomi Anthar
Loza Szydercow Li3 Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 17:55:00 -
[43] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: stuff
I think you what you did here is just counter your own arguments. Basically if i for example someone fights in 24th crusade(just an example) AND HE WANTS JUST PEW PEW and just PVP. After all you said game should be about pvp and fun. Then why he is forced to buy from damn PVE industrials. He should be able to get his guns from 24th store. This player should have his damn right to actually **** on industrials all the time. But no he is directly connected to what those risk awerse players do, what prices they set. If he could buy GOOD enough guns from his own faction store. Then it would be good, not the other way.
You are trying to say game should be balanced about PVP, but in fact you support PVE over PVP all the way.
Don't fool yourself guys, a big part of ship cost is in guns/ammo/drones. And as now it's that there IS NO option among weapons - its either T2 or ... nothing. With ammo it's diffrent story but not much better tbh. It's still often better (scorch for example). Drones ? Another bullshit. Since when Gallente Federation cannot produce superior drones to ordinary T2 hobgoblins ? I though they are best drone race around (maybe after Rogue Drones lol). Atm some random industrial guy can outdo best Federation Navy work in some random deep in ass industrial station.
Hell yeah work as intended...
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Naomi Anthar
Loza Szydercow Li3 Federation
60
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 17:58:00 -
[44] - Quote
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:Aston Martin DB5 wrote:Fking NO! You are basically advocating golden ammo and pay to win. Dumb dumb dumb. Players that have trained t2 should have the advantage with damage output for their ship even if the player has implants.
If you disagree then remove skill training in the game. No pay to win ? Then i say T2 is too expensive too ! I want to roam around in meta 0 stuff pwning and it must be as strong as officers stuff !! No pay to win !!! meta 0 invu must give 50% resists as Estamel !!! NO PAY TO WIN !! Dude please biomass for your own good... Not sure what I had just read there. Please point me to where there was one complete sentence. Dumb post along with dumb logic!
Read your own post , before you complain , let me quote one or two of your "sentences": "Dumb dumb dumb." , "Fking NO! ".
I though i can come up with language you use and understand. Right ? |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
50
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 19:42:00 -
[45] - Quote
Aston Martin DB5 wrote:Fking NO! You are basically advocating golden ammo and pay to win. Dumb dumb dumb. Players that have trained t2 should have the advantage with damage output for their ship even if the player has implants.
If you disagree then remove skill training in the game.
If you noticed, I previously said that in order to get said benefits from the faction guns either the skill requirements would be changed or you wouldn't get the benefits without the skills. Please take you childish declarations of Apocalypse Now elsewhere. |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
50
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 19:46:00 -
[46] - Quote
Kusum Fawn wrote:yall continuously miss the tag bottleneck that most of the faction guns suffer from.
It was also proposed that said bottleneck be lowered. does anyone read the previous comments? |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
334
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 20:49:00 -
[47] - Quote
the bottleneck is not the drop rate but which tags are required for which things. Large guns require the same tags as medium guns and small guns require the same tags as the universally useable modules such as sensor boosters and tracking computers.
were they adjusted to require tags specific to the module "size" faction weapons would become more common and the price would drop.
some modules like armor and shield resistance boosters dont have a size and thus ought to require more specialized tags or tags separate from the weapons and classed modules.
reducing the tag numbers required for redemption would do some of the same thing, but would only lower the prices for universal modules and not the specialized ones. Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
548
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 21:38:00 -
[48] - Quote
Vassal Zeren wrote:Allow faction weapons (and all weapons greater than meta 5) to use T2 ammunition and be affected by the specialization skills. This would provide better modules to reach for in the offensive category, just like the defensive modules have their better faction variants. Absolutely not. Faction guns are tech 1.
What they need is to not be worse than base t1, but actually be good. They should have a damage bonus of 5-10% over the meta 4, and at minimum the same range. If one had less range, it should have better tracking to make up for it.
Navy faction guns could have a 5% damage bonus and the same range across the board, with reduced CPU and the same powergrid costs as t1 for the meta 8s, while the meta 9s could have CPU cost similar to metas 1-4 but have either slightly better tracking, range, or damage. With a max damage bonus of 10%, with the same range and tracking but lower than meta 0 CPU cost, the weapon will have exactly the same attributes as fully skilled tech 2 (when fitted with tech 1/faction ammo), but will cost less CPU and powergrid, and have lower skill requirements. This is the ultimate expression of faction stuff and should be reserved for the very best and most expensive faction guns. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
51
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 22:29:00 -
[49] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Vassal Zeren wrote:Allow faction weapons (and all weapons greater than meta 5) to use T2 ammunition and be affected by the specialization skills. This would provide better modules to reach for in the offensive category, just like the defensive modules have their better faction variants. Absolutely not. Faction guns are tech 1. What they need is to not be worse than base t1, but actually be good. They should have a damage bonus of 5-10% over the meta 4, and at minimum the same range. If one had less range, it should have better tracking to make up for it. Navy faction guns could have a 5% damage bonus and the same range across the board, with reduced CPU and the same powergrid costs as t1 for the meta 8s, while the meta 9s could have CPU cost similar to metas 1-4 but have either slightly better tracking, range, or damage. With a max damage bonus of 10%, with the same range and tracking but lower than meta 0 CPU cost, the weapon will have exactly the same attributes as fully skilled tech 2 (when fitted with tech 1/faction ammo), but will cost less CPU and powergrid, and have lower skill requirements. This is the ultimate expression of faction stuff and should be reserved for the very best and most expensive faction guns.
No thats not true. Many Faction things are universally better than their T2 counterparts. You can easily spot those items: they are used. Faction invulns, faction ballistics, faction reppers, faction adaptive nano membrane, the list is pretty long. How can you say the ultimate goal of faction stuff is easier fitting when all of these modules exist? It seems that the modules that are ONLY better for their fitting and are indeed worse in the actual specialty of that module, are hardly used at all. I point again to caldari navy heavy missile launchers. In order to be used the wepons have to be better at their jobs than T2 because T2 is cheeper. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
549
|
Posted - 2013.06.15 22:53:00 -
[50] - Quote
Vassal Zeren wrote:It seems that the modules that are ONLY better for their fitting and are indeed worse in the actual specialty of that module, are hardly used at all. But the faction modules that are only slightly better than tech 2 but with easier fitting are highly sought after.
Giving a faction gun +10% dps and the same range and tracking makes it better than t2 unless you have the t2 weapon skill at level 5.
I'm okay with faction guns having slightly better attributes than tech 2, but only very slightly. As it stands, the problem is that a lot of the faction guns are much worse than basic tech 1 meta 0. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
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Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
51
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 01:20:00 -
[51] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Vassal Zeren wrote:It seems that the modules that are ONLY better for their fitting and are indeed worse in the actual specialty of that module, are hardly used at all. But the faction modules that are only slightly better than tech 2 but with easier fitting are highly sought after. Giving a faction gun +10% dps and the same range and tracking makes it better than t2 unless you have the t2 weapon skill at level 5. I'm okay with faction guns having slightly better attributes than tech 2, but only very slightly. As it stands, the problem is that a lot of the faction guns are much worse than basic tech 1 meta 0.
Why shouldn't they be better than T2? They cost 60 million a pop. for 60x the price of a T2 weapon, I should have all the capabilities of a T2 weapon. The fact is, that without the flexibility of using ammunition types like fury and scorch faction weapons are overall worse than T2 so there is no purpose to them. They need to do significantly more DPS to the point where it makes sense to invest money in them. I am having a hard time understanding how people keep saying the faction weapons are good for fitting. No proffesional fits use faction weapons. It is very unusual for someone to go for less dps just for ease of fitting. All staple fits are pretty much based around fitting T2 weapons. Its the other modules such as invuln's, BCU's , PDU. that are fit as faction modules. Because in addition to being easier on fitting, they are better People fit faction weapons in a pinch (and only people with tons of cash to burn for that matter) No standard fit will have you using faction weapons but many will have you use faction BCU's. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
830
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 02:59:00 -
[52] - Quote
Naomi Anthar wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: stuff
I think you what you did here is just counter your own arguments. Basically if i for example someone fights in 24th crusade(just an example) AND HE WANTS JUST PEW PEW and just PVP. After all you said game should be about pvp and fun. Then why he is forced to buy from damn PVE industrials. He should be able to get his guns from 24th store. This player should have his damn right to actually **** on industrials all the time. But no he is directly connected to what those risk awerse players do, what prices they set. If he could buy GOOD enough guns from his own faction store. Then it would be good, not the other way. You are trying to say game should be balanced about PVP, but in fact you support PVE over PVP all the way. Don't fool yourself guys, a big part of ship cost is in guns/ammo/drones. And as now it's that there IS NO option among weapons - its either T2 or ... nothing. With ammo it's diffrent story but not much better tbh. It's still often better (scorch for example). Drones ? Another bullshit. Since when Gallente Federation cannot produce superior drones to ordinary T2 hobgoblins ? I though they are best drone race around (maybe after Rogue Drones lol). Atm some random industrial guy can outdo best Federation Navy work in some random deep in ass industrial station. Hell yeah work as intended...
Should read again, I'm not English native nor ever pretended to be but thought it was quite clear as post and not a wall of text on top.
You say there's no option for guns, then Meta4 are what for? -you should know those are as good as T2 but can't use T2 ammo nor profit from the increase in damage well deserved after over a month training for lvl5+spec up to 4
In short you don't want to put effort in whatever, click and go, why bother training skills? -you're smarter than everyone why should you train skills?
Ammo not much better: you're kidding right? good enough to be the best choice while moving around because you don't have the range bonus but you don't have the range penalty neither and ranges where you can do stuff with is right in between, so, good enough.
Again, take your faction guns and put faction ammo, get faction dmg mods, once it's done compare with T2, then compare the difference in amount of time training for both; faction guns are OK, don't need buffs If you think they are bad, if you think they need buffs you really need first to start training your skills past lvl3, there's no other explanation. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
51
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 03:20:00 -
[53] - Quote
Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote:Naomi Anthar wrote:Sergeant Acht Scultz wrote: stuff
I think you what you did here is just counter your own arguments. Basically if i for example someone fights in 24th crusade(just an example) AND HE WANTS JUST PEW PEW and just PVP. After all you said game should be about pvp and fun. Then why he is forced to buy from damn PVE industrials. He should be able to get his guns from 24th store. This player should have his damn right to actually **** on industrials all the time. But no he is directly connected to what those risk awerse players do, what prices they set. If he could buy GOOD enough guns from his own faction store. Then it would be good, not the other way. You are trying to say game should be balanced about PVP, but in fact you support PVE over PVP all the way. Don't fool yourself guys, a big part of ship cost is in guns/ammo/drones. And as now it's that there IS NO option among weapons - its either T2 or ... nothing. With ammo it's diffrent story but not much better tbh. It's still often better (scorch for example). Drones ? Another bullshit. Since when Gallente Federation cannot produce superior drones to ordinary T2 hobgoblins ? I though they are best drone race around (maybe after Rogue Drones lol). Atm some random industrial guy can outdo best Federation Navy work in some random deep in ass industrial station. Hell yeah work as intended... Should read again, I'm not English native nor ever pretended to be but thought it was quite clear as post and not a wall of text on top. You say there's no option for guns, then Meta4 are what for? -you should know those are as good as T2 but can't use T2 ammo nor profit from the increase in damage well deserved after over a month training for lvl5+spec up to 4 In short you don't want to put effort in whatever, click and go, why bother training skills? -you're smarter than everyone why should you train skills? Ammo not much better: you're kidding right? good enough to be the best choice while moving around because you don't have the range bonus but you don't have the range penalty neither and ranges where you can do stuff with is right in between, so, good enough. Again, take your faction guns and put faction ammo, get faction dmg mods, once it's done compare with T2, then compare the difference in amount of time training for both; faction guns are OK, don't need buffs If you think they are bad, if you think they need buffs you really need first to start training your skills past lvl3, there's no other explanation.
Meta 4 guns don't cost as much as faction guns. As a result they see slightly more use than faction guns, which is to say still hardly any. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
551
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 06:27:00 -
[54] - Quote
When the guns have the powergrid and CPU cost of meta 1-4 but the DPS of tech 2, they ARE better. There's still a use for tech 2 guns (tech 2 ammo) and it comes at the cost of the skill requirements for those weapons.
I think faction stuff in general is too expensive, because it's too difficult to obtain (Navy faction stuff is). But navy faction stuff is not supposed to be super good. If you look at all the navy faction modules (and a lot of pirate faction modules even) you'll notice that none of them are a lot better than tech 2.
I also think tech 2 stuff is too cheap. It is supposed to be pretty badass stuff. Also, I use tech 2 guns a lot and often do not use tech 2 ammo with them. I get better DPS than with meta 4 and have the option to use tech 2 ammo even if I often don't. Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
PavlikX
You are in da lock
73
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 09:57:00 -
[55] - Quote
Still i think that CCP should bring new faction's weapons and ammo skills. And faction weapons will be slightly boosted, without interference with T2 stuff. Important note, unlike T2 those new faction skills will give bonuses, but not be prequirements. In this case we will have this two different groups of weapons T2 will have T2, faction, T1 ammo, their existing specialisation skills and lower price Faction weapons with faction and T1 ammo, new specialisation skills, greater effiency and price |
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
595
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 11:18:00 -
[56] - Quote
no |
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes The G0dfathers
144
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 11:37:00 -
[57] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:When the guns have the powergrid and CPU cost of meta 1-4 but the DPS of tech 2, they ARE better. There's still a use for tech 2 guns (tech 2 ammo) and it comes at the cost of the skill requirements for those weapons.
This situation is not fixed. With all other relevant skills at lv5 the faction gun will have higher dps than the T2 version until you reach lv3 in that weapon's specialisation skill after which the T2 gun will have the higher dps - this applies to the close range ammo. Long range T2 ammo is a different matter altogether and arguably far too powerful compared to the T1 medium to long range variations. |
Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
52
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 14:53:00 -
[58] - Quote
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:Vassal Zeren wrote:It seems that the modules that are ONLY better for their fitting and are indeed worse in the actual specialty of that module, are hardly used at all. But the faction modules that are only slightly better than tech 2 but with easier fitting are highly sought after.
I think you might be overlooking the % difference in the module effectiveness (12.5% damage vs 10% damage in the case of CNB's) and the actual damage increase. (which is 100dps ish) However raw dps is not enough. Unless faction weapons have all the capabilities of T2's + a little more their price will never be justified. |
Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
328
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 15:13:00 -
[59] - Quote
Not sure about faction weapon themselves but cosmos weapons having high skill requirements and being able to use T2 ammo would be an option to upgrade for those who already maxed weapons on a given ship but are unwilling to shell out 7 bill per gun for an officer fit, you know a middle ground. |
Reaver Glitterstim
Dromedaworks inc Tribal Band
551
|
Posted - 2013.06.16 21:21:00 -
[60] - Quote
I'm leaving this thread but I want to repeat that I am much in favor of the idea that faction weapons need a huge buff. I think letting em use T2 ammo is a bad idea, so the buff should be elsewhere. I think I agree with most people here in that the net usefulness of these weapons should at least somewhat match the price. We may disagree on the specific mechanics but I like that we all see the problem the same way overall. :)
o/ Fit a warfare link to your tech 1 battlecruiser. Train Wing Commander. Get in the Squad Commander or Wing Commander position. Your fleets will be superior to everyone else's. |
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