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Kurren
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Posted - 2005.11.15 15:13:00 -
[31]
 Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
Stealing is stealing, you can't justify it otherwise... some people just don't see it as wrong, is all. It's there, it's not protected, it's fair game. Of course, that brings up the example of the food in the resteraunt from 2nd poster.
Stealing is stealing if you didn't pay for something somebody else worked for and it wasn't given to you.
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I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Sassinak
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Posted - 2005.11.15 16:39:00 -
[32]
This argument has been goin on since eve was released nearly 3 years ago...
Answer hasnt changed either.
ITS NOT THEFT IF YOU LEAVE YOUR JETTISONED ORE IN AN UNSECURED CONTAINER.
PEOPLE WILL ONLY COME ALONG TO COLLECT YOUR GARBAGE
USE SECURED CONTAINERS
THX
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:19:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Sassinak
This argument has been goin on since eve was released nearly 3 years ago...
Answer hasnt changed either.
ITS NOT THEFT IF YOU LEAVE YOUR JETTISONED ORE IN AN UNSECURED CONTAINER.
PEOPLE WILL ONLY COME ALONG TO COLLECT YOUR GARBAGE
USE SECURED CONTAINERS
THX
Why are they implemeting flagging for jetcans then?
Could it be that you are WRONG?
(sorry - had to)
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Kurren
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Posted - 2005.11.15 18:18:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Sassinak
This argument has been goin on since eve was released nearly 3 years ago...
Answer hasnt changed either.
ITS NOT THEFT IF YOU LEAVE YOUR JETTISONED ORE IN AN UNSECURED CONTAINER.
PEOPLE WILL ONLY COME ALONG TO COLLECT YOUR GARBAGE
USE SECURED CONTAINERS
THX
Why are they implemeting flagging for jetcans then?
Could it be that you are WRONG?
(sorry - had to)
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I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Regat Kozovv
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Posted - 2005.11.15 18:50:00 -
[35]
It seems to me that the opinion of whether or not ore theft is "right" or "wrong" is always going to be a matter of perspective.
However, as some in here have noted, it's a reality. Regardless if whether or not it is wrong, it is possible. One thing that I have admired about EVE's system is it's lack of controls. If you steal goods out of someone's grocery cart, or take the food off their plate, a cop is not going to magically appear before you and give you a whoppin'. I think the flagging is a good idea however, because it will allow people to defend what is "theirs", if possible. If you're a little guy with a shopping cart, and someone takes out of it, you can whine and complain and hopefully get someone to help you. If you're a big guy or girl, you can pound the crap out of them. Same thing with space mining. (I believe this is why many who mine in low sec space mine in groups.) That way, if an ore thief appears, your Covetor won't be able to do much, but your buddy in the Ferox will...=)
Personally, whilest being a miner myself, I think the ore thieving makes things much more intersting...
But as some others suggested, go the safe route: buy a secure container...=)
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Rainmahn
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Posted - 2005.11.15 19:08:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
You are either a moron or a griefer. When you take something that is not yours you are a thief. How complicated can that be?  |
Jaik Jermaine
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Posted - 2005.11.15 19:34:00 -
[37]
its the persons dumbass misake for leaving something valuble in an unsecured location, if your stupid enough to do that it deserves to be taken from you
ride your bicycle to the movie theater and stash it behind a bush cause you have no bike lock to chain it to the bike stand. if its gone when you come back, its what you deserve for not taking the proper precautions
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Armor Jack
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Posted - 2005.11.15 19:55:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Rainmahn
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
You are either a moron or a griefer. When you take something that is not yours you are a thief. How complicated can that be?
that's a Real Live law, where does it say taking stuff from an unsecured container is illegal?
_________________________________________________
The only real Caldarian is born a Caldarian, dawg... |
Skyscorcher
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Posted - 2005.11.15 20:08:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Skyscorcher on 15/11/2005 20:08:07
The Act of "Ore Theft" doesn't lower my security status and it won't when this new patch goes live... likewise, Concord will not get involved.
As such, it is not a criminal act.
And since the word Theft implies a criminal act, it is actually a very inaccurate way of describing the situation.
Armor Jack's "taking stuff from an unsecured container" is the only way to say it.
Now, Yes. You can shoot at someone who has taken stuff from a container belonging to you and Concord will not interfere. All that means is that the act of shooting at someone who has taken stuff from one of your containers is not illegal. But that does nothing to change the fact that taking stuff still is still not a crime.
There.
______________________________
PLAY LIKE YA GOT A PAIR! |
riffin
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Posted - 2005.11.15 21:41:00 -
[40]
Edited by: riffin on 15/11/2005 21:42:48
Originally by: Professor McFly
Walk into a restaurant and take a plate of food from someone as they are eating. How is that theft? 
This is not a good example at all.
Drive to the bank and withdrawl $5000. Go out to the public parking lot and start dropping $100 bills in a 5 gallon bucket. See how long it takes before someone walks up and attempts to "steal" your cash.
-riff
******To all carebears...Happy early Valentine, let me give you this PEARL necklace******
***I can't find my keys!??***
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2005.11.15 21:50:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
Don't think of this just as ore, think of it as you are doing a lvl 4 blockade mission and some ******* is stealing the drops (ofcourse most people try to steal the kill and bounty more often).
And to answer your question:
If I put my backpack on the ground next to me, how is it NOT stealing when you try to take something from it?
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Your Civilian Gatling Railgun perfectly strikes Choke Slam [CAIN], wrecking for 6.0 damage. |
Finix Jaeger
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Posted - 2005.11.15 21:57:00 -
[42]
It wasnt theft, but its becoming...
As simple as that
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Clutch Cargo
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:09:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Clutch Cargo on 15/11/2005 22:12:31
Edited by: Clutch Cargo on 15/11/2005 22:10:10
This is a stupid question, talk about the death of morality or ethics.
So anything that is not secured can be taken? That sounds more like anarchy. So if you get ganked at a gate I guess you would be ok with someone coming by and taking your mods. If you are on a mission I guess it is just fine and dandy for someone to warp up in a hauler and help themselves to the loot.
If someone spends their time mining ore, it doesn't matter if it is in a secure can, the ore is theirs; they worked for it.
Didn't your mom teach you any manners?
Edit:Edit
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Ampire
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:24:00 -
[44]
Originally by: mahhy
So if I carry something, lets say a piece of gold that I mined, in a garbage bag, as soon as I place it on the ground and you take it, its not theft?
Theft is the act of taking something that doesn't belong to you, and has nothing to do with the container that something may or may not be in. Arguing otherwise is simply silly.
If you put it down in the MIDDLE of nowhere, in some field or something, get in a car, and take off... it certainly is not theft. Anyone watching you leave would assume you had discarded whetever was in the bag.
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Clutch Cargo
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:32:00 -
[45]
Quote:
Anyone watching you leave would assume you had discarded whetever was in the bag.
Even if it was my wallet?
The fact is that most ore thieves steal your ore while you are right there mining, they don't wait until you leave.
Back to my wallet then. If I am standing somewhere and I drop my wallet, does that make it the property of the first person to pick it up?
I understand that arguing RL decency and ethics is moot to most people playing, however taking something that someone else worked for, whether secured or not, whether they are there or not, is theft, no matter how you split the hair.
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Vlodec
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Posted - 2005.11.16 01:00:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Jaik Jermaine
its the persons dumbass misake for leaving something valuble in an unsecured location, if your stupid enough to do that it deserves to be taken from you
ride your bicycle to the movie theater and stash it behind a bush cause you have no bike lock to chain it to the bike stand. if its gone when you come back, its what you deserve for not taking the proper precautions
Yes. Perhaps. But the person who steals it is still a thief.
Am I allowed to say that ? |
Lygos
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Posted - 2005.11.16 02:34:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Lygos on 16/11/2005 02:34:01
Ore both is and is not Property.
Even if it is property, what are you gonna do about it?
You should take/defend the ore on the grounds that you will gain resources and they will lose. Everyone should laud the winning party in the ensuing days and months of conflict for being the more determined.
The actual act of usurpation has no moral significance whatsoever in EVE. When you are ready for the responsibility, you and yours may erect and enforce your own morality on the foundation of your own resolve.
"Everything I love is combustible." |
Skurlan
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Posted - 2005.11.16 02:46:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
by definition it is, theft is depriving someone of property belonging to them. I think it is the right step to add a risk factor to theft.
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Threefisted Olie
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:02:00 -
[49]
When does and astroid become property? If you mine a roid, is the ore yours both inside your hold and outside? If you leave the ore in space, is it still yours? How long does it stay yours? A hour, a day, or forever?
You have no right to mine the ore. Its not your roid, you don't own it. You've invested some labor, mining it. Does that labor mean you own the roid in its new form of ore?
If I painted all the roids green, would I own them? It took labor to paint the roid green, is that labor any different than the labor it took to convert the roid to ore? There is no astroid painters in the game, but it would still take labor to put a can next to the roid labeled "THIS ROCK IS MINE, GET YOUR OWN ROCK"
Jetcan property rights are vague. If i were in a 0.0 with permision from an alliance, and I grabbed a can, the Law would add some ventalation holes to my ship. Empire space, the law desn't care. The social aspects of taking a can do not matter, its not theft. You cannot "take the law into you own hands" in 1.0 and there is no law concerning picking up cans. Concord does not care and they are the Law in high sec.
Bad laws? Perhaps. Theft? Not unless the Law says so. Got a problem with it, write your represenitive, or become the Law yourself.
Anyone want to sum up John Locke's chapter on property for us? I lack the attention span to read anything with more depth than Maxim
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Vlodec
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:14:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Vlodec on 16/11/2005 04:15:34
Jesus.......
Actually you lack the brains to to read anything with more depth than Maxim
Am I allowed to say that ? |
Roham Tahkim
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:22:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Roham Tahkim on 16/11/2005 04:22:22
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Vlodec
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:42:00 -
[52]
I guess those who have nothing to say have no recourse but to belittle those who do.........even if we require several attempts to get it right.
Am I allowed to say that ? |
Threefisted Olie
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:57:00 -
[53]
I was more interested in the opinion of the person that linked Locke's Second Treatise; I wasn't interested in reading a halfhearted flame from a messageboard warrior. More specifically, I was interested in Lygos's statement that "Ore both is and is not Property" I did not pick that up from my quick reading of the chapter on property.
Locke belived that converting the common things of nature to the uncommon granted title. He also stated that taking more from nature than a man could use was useless and dishonest. By Locke's definiton, we are all dishonest, and are granted a title to our dishonest ore when we jetcan it. All we do in eve is take more than we need, the entire system is based on power and greed for power.
None of this has much to do with jetcan mining. My question is how is ore both property and not property?
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Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:06:00 -
[54]
Originally by: sonofollo
putting youre hands in someones pockets or down someones pants can lead to serious problems
Or a date.
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Vlodec
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:07:00 -
[55]
Yes I think I see the problem. You're too concerned to impress and not concerned enough to resolve the issue.
I suggest you repeat the words "common sense" every time you feel the need to sound off this way. It will work. How long the cure requires depends on your age, integrity and intelligence.
Am I allowed to say that ? |
Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:09:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Armor Jack
Originally by: Rainmahn
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
You are either a moron or a griefer. When you take something that is not yours you are a thief. How complicated can that be?
that's a Real Live law, where does it say taking stuff from an unsecured container is illegal?
Not where I live. My car is unlocked, come take it (i am not giving you permission to), and I'll take it back from you with a baseball bat. We'll see what the courts say. (Here's a hint, they'll tell me good job and lock you up in addition to you already having been beaten)
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Clutch Cargo
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:15:00 -
[57]
If you stake a claim on public land, everything within your claim is yours. When you pull up to a roid that is in "public" space, you are defacto stacking a claim, therefore any ore you mine is yours.
This is the sticky part, CCP defines the rules here, not RL. In RL someone taking your ore would be a thief, in EVE CCP has to define that. Until now it has not been a crime, apparently after RMR, there will be a new sheriff in town.
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:30:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kaell Meynn
Not where I live. My car is unlocked, come take it (i am not giving you permission to), and I'll take it back from you with a baseball bat. We'll see what the courts say. (Here's a hint, they'll tell me good job and lock you up in addition to you already having been beaten)
Just curious, but where do you live? If it's in the US, your thief will be going away for grand theft auto, and you'll be facing charges of aggrivated assault if you 'take it back with a baseball bat' without being in any direct danger (ie: you hunt them down).
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Your Civilian Gatling Railgun perfectly strikes Choke Slam [CAIN], wrecking for 6.0 damage. |
Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:41:00 -
[59]
This game is utterly amazing. Apparently, the only rule is "that which is not forbidden is mandatory".
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Vlodec
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:41:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dak Hakin
If I see a container floating in space and it is not secure, I am going to check it. If it has ore, or strip miners, or loot, whatever, if there is nobody else around, I will probably take it. I dont think of it as criminal, I think of it as scavenging. Someone did not need something, well, I'll sell it to someone who does.
Now if there is someone in the area, I will either assume it belongs to them (loot, whatever) and ignore it, or ask if anyone belongs to the jet can. *shrug*
Very good. And entirely beside the point........I think.
Am I allowed to say that ? |
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