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Armor Jack
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:09:00 -
[1]
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
_________________________________________________
The only real Caldarian is born a Caldarian, dawg... |
Professor McFly
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:11:00 -
[2]
Walk into a restaurant and take a plate of food from someone as they are eating. How is that theft? 
____________________
1) Buy Eve Time Card
2) Sell it for ISK
3) You just legally bought ISK for real money! |
Snake Jankins
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:11:00 -
[3]
It's a matter of opinion like the question, if it's bad to shoot people who take something from your unsecured can. I think it's totally fine to kill them. 
'This is either my own opinion or not an opinion at all.' |
Traxio Nacho
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:11:00 -
[4]
Please don't start a thread about ore theft 
Also if you leave your mobile in an unsecure bag and I came along and stole it is that theft? (btw I wouldn't)
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Brogan Dagarkin
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:12:00 -
[5]
You leave your shopping kart (cart) next to your car while you get out your keys.
If I take some of your shopping from your unsecured container is that really theft?
If you take someone else's ore while they are there mining, then yes, it is theft. |
Tiuwaz
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:12:00 -
[6]
its like puting your hands into the pants of someone else, whatever your reasons for that may be, its bad
also cant remember the last time i put a lock on my pants
 Originally by: Oveur
****! Lets nerf it!
To the nerfmobile!
Originally by: CYVOK
ASCN SPACE is now a NOW FLY Zone.
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Moridin
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:17:00 -
[7]
IMO stealing from a macro miner is not a theft. it is community servise |
Jenny Spitfire
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:25:00 -
[8]
What is theft? 
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RecruitMe@NOINT! |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:27:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Brogan Dagarkin
You leave your shopping kart (cart) next to your car while you get out your keys.
If I take some of your shopping from your unsecured container is that really theft?
If you take someone else's ore while they are there mining, then yes, it is theft.
You havne't put it in a shopping cart; you've tossed it on the floor because you don't want it. If you come back later to retrieve and it's gone, no, that is NOT theft.
Although CCP are changing things in the next patch, so neither analogy will make much sense any more.
Celt Corp - members of ISS |
uaheuhaeuh
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:34:00 -
[10]
I would like to point out the fact that people seem to think ore theft is alot worse than pirating... which makes no sense at all. When someone steals ore, lets say he steals 10,000m3. So he just gained 10km3, and the person mining it lost 10km3. But if you look at pirating, lets say a person kills someones retreiver. The pirate may have gotten a couple strip miners, maybie 5 mil at most, but the miner would have lost everything. So if you think about it, ore theft is alot more fair than pirating.
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:45:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
You havne't put it in a shopping cart; you've tossed it on the floor because you don't want it. If you come back later to retrieve and it's gone, no, that is NOT theft.
No, you've put it on the floor in a generic container. A container labelled with both your name, and the name of your corp. Whether you want the item or not is irrelevant, it's your property, clearly labelled as such, and no-one has the right to tamper with it or remove it without special authority. In RL, the owner of the shop would be allowed to remove the obstruction, the police could remove it as a suspect package, etc. In eve, the only entity that has that authority is the can-popping process on the server.
As to the people saying "it's unsecured so it's free game" - the ability to take something does not grant the right to do so. While insurance policies may not pay out if things are not properly secured, the police will still treat it as a crime, and prosecute where possible. The onus on the law is and always should be that people shouldn't take what isn't theirs not that the owner should prevent others from doing so.
You can do anything. But you can't do everything. |
Matthew
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:50:00 -
[12]
Originally by: uaheuhaeuh
I would like to point out the fact that people seem to think ore theft is alot worse than pirating... which makes no sense at all. When someone steals ore, lets say he steals 10,000m3. So he just gained 10km3, and the person mining it lost 10km3. But if you look at pirating, lets say a person kills someones retreiver. The pirate may have gotten a couple strip miners, maybie 5 mil at most, but the miner would have lost everything. So if you think about it, ore theft is alot more fair than pirating.
Except the victim of piracy is allowed to fight back, via whatever means they had the foresight to provide themselves with. Right now, the victim of ore theft is prevented from fighting back by the law enforcement agency itself - that is the unfairness in the current ore theft system. The thief flagging system brings ore thieving in line with piracy, in that the victim is allowed to fight back, but it is up to the victim to provide themselves the means to do so.
You can do anything. But you can't do everything. |
Arablue
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Posted - 2005.11.15 12:53:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Moridin
IMO stealing from a macro miner is not a theft. it is community servise
At this point I have to agree with this post. I sometimes wonder if CCP is more interested in the peak users than tracking down reports of macro minier and money farmers taht sell on e-bay.
I would use a jet can to just transfer to my indy that was mining alongside my retriever, and get upset when someone would come and bump me only to discover All that was in hte jet can was a pushpin.
After this last week's and weekend's rash of macro miners taht I notice are STILL online daily. I will never get upset about being bumped again. Got get that ore and those macro miners guys !
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Arcadia1701E
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:02:00 -
[14]
whys everyone got this idea in there head that everyone in a barge is a macro miner??? cause its really ****ing me off. I trained for an age to get the covetor and mod strips and want to mine in peace without OMG macro miner omg kill.. it gets very annoying, and the ore theifing as well, lets see how they steal from me when the patch comes out.
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Chony
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:14:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Arcadia1701E
whys everyone got this idea in there head that everyone in a barge is a macro miner??? cause its really ****ing me off. I trained for an age to get the covetor and mod strips and want to mine in peace without OMG macro miner omg kill.. it gets very annoying, and the ore theifing as well, lets see how they steal from me when the patch comes out.
how are you gunna fight back with mining lasers :P
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Snake Jankins
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:15:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Snake Jankins on 15/11/2005 13:16:12
High sec. is supposed to be rather secure, hence the name ;) and low sec rather unsecure. So if someone steals your stuff in 1.0 under the protection of concorde, it shouldn't be this way.
But if someone blows up your covetor in 0.2, it's nothing to cry about.
1) Hi-sec is meant for new players and carebears, who want to avoid the dangers. So getting away with a crime is something that shouldn't be easy there.
2) Low sec. is for people who accept/like the higher risk and know how to protect themselves or enjoy to pirate/pvp or just enjoy loosing ships for whatever reason.
Think people have to accept that not the whole of EVE is meant to support their favorite play style. Hi-sec isn't meant as a pvp/kill/crime zone, low-sec/0.0 not for carebear'ing. If you don't like low-sec, don't go there. If you go there anyway, deal with the consequences and don't complain.
'This is either my own opinion or not an opinion at all.' |
Baldour Ngarr
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:16:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Matthew
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
You havne't put it in a shopping cart; you've tossed it on the floor because you don't want it. If you come back later to retrieve and it's gone, no, that is NOT theft.
No, you've put it on the floor in a generic container.
Wrong. You've tossed it into open space.
CCP only implemented the 27.5km jettison can, because it was easier to manage than having things appear directly in space.
Celt Corp - members of ISS |
sonofollo
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:16:00 -
[18]
putting youre hands in someones pockets or down someones pants can lead to serious problems
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Arablue
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:18:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Arcadia1701E
whys everyone got this idea in there head that everyone in a barge is a macro miner??? cause its really ****ing me off. I trained for an age to get the covetor and mod strips and want to mine in peace without OMG macro miner omg kill.. it gets very annoying, and the ore theifing as well, lets see how they steal from me when the patch comes out.
I dont think that all Covetor and Retriever pilots are macro miners. I have One retriever myself, working on the training to use my already purchased covetor and a second account I pilot an indy with.
The macro miners I have seen warp in with 5 or 6 comorants (all 9 day in game accounts, still in a newbie corp) and an indy and lay waste to a spot in a roid belt then move.
When you look in the jet can you see 30 or more stacks just the size of the comorants hold of various types of ore.
Those need to go. Those are the ones I give my blessings to the "ore thiefs."
Interestingly enough, I noticed the ore thiefs leave me alone if I drop a secure can, even in high sec space and use it to transfer to the indy with it. No bumps, they warp in to where I am and warp out.
So I am beginning to suspect the "ore thiefs" are self appointed game police. They Should be reporting using exploits when they find a suspected macro miner. If they swipe the ore from the jet can after writing down the miners names, and making the petition, fine.
If enough petitions get sent in about them, CCP should do something other than just send a "thanks we will check" update to the petition.
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Expert Newbie
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:18:00 -
[20]
Relating a game to real life is like trying to RP as Everquest characters in real life and root and daze the police officers when they come to arrest you.
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http://ranma13.no-ip.com/sig.jpg
Maximum signature image filesize is 24000 bytes - Udat |
Frey Jorgurand
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:20:00 -
[21]
If you don't wish for someone to take ore from you in high sec. space, DO NOT JET CAN MINE. It is that simple really. If you jet can mine, and you are not using a hauler, then expect it. You are inviting theft.
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mahhy
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:21:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Baldour Ngarr
You havne't put it in a shopping cart; you've tossed it on the floor because you don't want it. If you come back later to retrieve and it's gone, no, that is NOT theft.
So if I carry something, lets say a piece of gold that I mined, in a garbage bag, as soon as I place it on the ground and you take it, its not theft?
Theft is the act of taking something that doesn't belong to you, and has nothing to do with the container that something may or may not be in. Arguing otherwise is simply silly.
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Angelic Resolution
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: sonofollo
putting youre hands in someones pockets or down someones pants can lead to serious problems
signed
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Mallikanth
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:28:00 -
[24]
OMG not another pointless ethics thread on Ore Theft.
I almost posted here.....no.....wait
I have!!! ARRRGGGG!!
Uber Mining lvl5 in Training
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Fester Addams
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:36:00 -
[25]
The problem here is that to justify the theft of ore and loot in EvE some people have redefined ownership and/or theft.
Ownership ends not when you put a thing in the open in plain sight, if I buy a nuget of gold and throw it on the ground and you pick it upp and try to claim you own it I can have you arrested for theft, I can even do that if I wasnt even there to tell you it was my nuget.
I would just inform the police it was stolen and when you try to sell it chances are you will get caught.
All this said ore theft is not against the rules in EvE. EvE is an MMO in wich alot of illegal actions are perfectly within the game rules to do, my guess is that the people arguing that stealing ore from miners mining into jetcans is not theft is doing so from an OOG perspective and reason.
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20. Is it true all pvpers have carebear alts?
Yes, of course. I have so much fun looking up who's alt is who's
kieron
Community Manager,
EVE Online |
Serpensis
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:42:00 -
[26]
The only reason it is "unsecured" is because the miners was not allowed to shoot at the miserable thieves. The miners had up until RMR no way of protecting the can.
Now, however, I will send you to whatever God you want if try to nick my ore.
--
"Fear accompanies the possibility of death,
calm sheperds its certainty." |
DukDodgerz
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:43:00 -
[27]
it is stealing, no matter what the twits that think otherwise may say, it is stealing.
tossing RL senerios and any bullsheet excuse about what a 3rd party intendion is pointless. Taking the ore from miners that are floating next to the can, filling it up while waiting for their hauler to gather the ore, is theft, plain , simple, nothing complicated about it, even the morons that steal know it is theft.
Is it up to CCP to stop the thieft, seems that it isn't according to CCP.
Been around since beta and one ideal of CCP's that has held fast all this time, ignore the silent majority and cator to the griefing minority.
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Sarke
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Posted - 2005.11.15 13:54:00 -
[28]
Originally by: mahhy
Theft is the act of taking something that doesn't belong to you, and has nothing to do with the container that something may or may not be in. Arguing otherwise is simply silly.
Yup, in RL if you find something you're required by law to turn it over to local authorities and only if it goes unclaimed for a period of time may you keep it (to prove that it was in fact abandoned). Even if someone loses something, it's still their property.
Relating this to EVE, if you take ore from a can you probably know that whoever mined it will be back soon to get it (i.e. theft). Move it to a new container and if no one shows up to claim it after about an hour you can keep it, as it would have been destroyed otherwise.
Originally by: uaheuhaeuh
lets say he steals 10,000m3. So he just gained 10km3, and the person mining it lost 10km3.
I'm sorry, but I have to correct you here. 10,000 m3 is equal to 0.000,01 km3.
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Joshua Izblind
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Posted - 2005.11.15 14:34:00 -
[29]
RL RL RL RL RL, BLABLABLABA BLADI BLADI BLA!
Since this aint RL, but EvE with loads of stupid people that leave metal junk (i.e. containers) everywhere they go, its my job to clean it all up.
Its not "Theft", or a crime. And yes, i do take other people's food in restaurants.
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Hoshi
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Posted - 2005.11.15 15:02:00 -
[30]
Doesn't really matter what we think, after the next patch the game will consider it theft.
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Kurren
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Posted - 2005.11.15 15:13:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
Stealing is stealing, you can't justify it otherwise... some people just don't see it as wrong, is all. It's there, it's not protected, it's fair game. Of course, that brings up the example of the food in the resteraunt from 2nd poster.
Stealing is stealing if you didn't pay for something somebody else worked for and it wasn't given to you.
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I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Sassinak
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Posted - 2005.11.15 16:39:00 -
[32]
This argument has been goin on since eve was released nearly 3 years ago...
Answer hasnt changed either.
ITS NOT THEFT IF YOU LEAVE YOUR JETTISONED ORE IN AN UNSECURED CONTAINER.
PEOPLE WILL ONLY COME ALONG TO COLLECT YOUR GARBAGE
USE SECURED CONTAINERS
THX
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Deja Thoris
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Posted - 2005.11.15 17:19:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Sassinak
This argument has been goin on since eve was released nearly 3 years ago...
Answer hasnt changed either.
ITS NOT THEFT IF YOU LEAVE YOUR JETTISONED ORE IN AN UNSECURED CONTAINER.
PEOPLE WILL ONLY COME ALONG TO COLLECT YOUR GARBAGE
USE SECURED CONTAINERS
THX
Why are they implemeting flagging for jetcans then?
Could it be that you are WRONG?
(sorry - had to)
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Kurren
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Posted - 2005.11.15 18:18:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Sassinak
This argument has been goin on since eve was released nearly 3 years ago...
Answer hasnt changed either.
ITS NOT THEFT IF YOU LEAVE YOUR JETTISONED ORE IN AN UNSECURED CONTAINER.
PEOPLE WILL ONLY COME ALONG TO COLLECT YOUR GARBAGE
USE SECURED CONTAINERS
THX
Why are they implemeting flagging for jetcans then?
Could it be that you are WRONG?
(sorry - had to)
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I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Regat Kozovv
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Posted - 2005.11.15 18:50:00 -
[35]
It seems to me that the opinion of whether or not ore theft is "right" or "wrong" is always going to be a matter of perspective.
However, as some in here have noted, it's a reality. Regardless if whether or not it is wrong, it is possible. One thing that I have admired about EVE's system is it's lack of controls. If you steal goods out of someone's grocery cart, or take the food off their plate, a cop is not going to magically appear before you and give you a whoppin'. I think the flagging is a good idea however, because it will allow people to defend what is "theirs", if possible. If you're a little guy with a shopping cart, and someone takes out of it, you can whine and complain and hopefully get someone to help you. If you're a big guy or girl, you can pound the crap out of them. Same thing with space mining. (I believe this is why many who mine in low sec space mine in groups.) That way, if an ore thief appears, your Covetor won't be able to do much, but your buddy in the Ferox will...=)
Personally, whilest being a miner myself, I think the ore thieving makes things much more intersting...
But as some others suggested, go the safe route: buy a secure container...=)
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Rainmahn
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Posted - 2005.11.15 19:08:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
You are either a moron or a griefer. When you take something that is not yours you are a thief. How complicated can that be? |
Jaik Jermaine
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Posted - 2005.11.15 19:34:00 -
[37]
its the persons dumbass misake for leaving something valuble in an unsecured location, if your stupid enough to do that it deserves to be taken from you
ride your bicycle to the movie theater and stash it behind a bush cause you have no bike lock to chain it to the bike stand. if its gone when you come back, its what you deserve for not taking the proper precautions
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Armor Jack
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Posted - 2005.11.15 19:55:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Rainmahn
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
You are either a moron or a griefer. When you take something that is not yours you are a thief. How complicated can that be?
that's a Real Live law, where does it say taking stuff from an unsecured container is illegal?
_________________________________________________
The only real Caldarian is born a Caldarian, dawg... |
Skyscorcher
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Posted - 2005.11.15 20:08:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Skyscorcher on 15/11/2005 20:08:07
The Act of "Ore Theft" doesn't lower my security status and it won't when this new patch goes live... likewise, Concord will not get involved.
As such, it is not a criminal act.
And since the word Theft implies a criminal act, it is actually a very inaccurate way of describing the situation.
Armor Jack's "taking stuff from an unsecured container" is the only way to say it.
Now, Yes. You can shoot at someone who has taken stuff from a container belonging to you and Concord will not interfere. All that means is that the act of shooting at someone who has taken stuff from one of your containers is not illegal. But that does nothing to change the fact that taking stuff still is still not a crime.
There.
______________________________
PLAY LIKE YA GOT A PAIR! |
riffin
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Posted - 2005.11.15 21:41:00 -
[40]
Edited by: riffin on 15/11/2005 21:42:48
Originally by: Professor McFly
Walk into a restaurant and take a plate of food from someone as they are eating. How is that theft?
This is not a good example at all.
Drive to the bank and withdrawl $5000. Go out to the public parking lot and start dropping $100 bills in a 5 gallon bucket. See how long it takes before someone walks up and attempts to "steal" your cash.
-riff
******To all carebears...Happy early Valentine, let me give you this PEARL necklace******
***I can't find my keys!??***
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2005.11.15 21:50:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
Don't think of this just as ore, think of it as you are doing a lvl 4 blockade mission and some ******* is stealing the drops (ofcourse most people try to steal the kill and bounty more often).
And to answer your question:
If I put my backpack on the ground next to me, how is it NOT stealing when you try to take something from it?
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Your Civilian Gatling Railgun perfectly strikes Choke Slam [CAIN], wrecking for 6.0 damage. |
Finix Jaeger
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Posted - 2005.11.15 21:57:00 -
[42]
It wasnt theft, but its becoming...
As simple as that
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Clutch Cargo
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:09:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Clutch Cargo on 15/11/2005 22:12:31
Edited by: Clutch Cargo on 15/11/2005 22:10:10
This is a stupid question, talk about the death of morality or ethics.
So anything that is not secured can be taken? That sounds more like anarchy. So if you get ganked at a gate I guess you would be ok with someone coming by and taking your mods. If you are on a mission I guess it is just fine and dandy for someone to warp up in a hauler and help themselves to the loot.
If someone spends their time mining ore, it doesn't matter if it is in a secure can, the ore is theirs; they worked for it.
Didn't your mom teach you any manners?
Edit:Edit
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Ampire
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:24:00 -
[44]
Originally by: mahhy
So if I carry something, lets say a piece of gold that I mined, in a garbage bag, as soon as I place it on the ground and you take it, its not theft?
Theft is the act of taking something that doesn't belong to you, and has nothing to do with the container that something may or may not be in. Arguing otherwise is simply silly.
If you put it down in the MIDDLE of nowhere, in some field or something, get in a car, and take off... it certainly is not theft. Anyone watching you leave would assume you had discarded whetever was in the bag.
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Clutch Cargo
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Posted - 2005.11.15 22:32:00 -
[45]
Quote:
Anyone watching you leave would assume you had discarded whetever was in the bag.
Even if it was my wallet?
The fact is that most ore thieves steal your ore while you are right there mining, they don't wait until you leave.
Back to my wallet then. If I am standing somewhere and I drop my wallet, does that make it the property of the first person to pick it up?
I understand that arguing RL decency and ethics is moot to most people playing, however taking something that someone else worked for, whether secured or not, whether they are there or not, is theft, no matter how you split the hair.
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Vlodec
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Posted - 2005.11.16 01:00:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Jaik Jermaine
its the persons dumbass misake for leaving something valuble in an unsecured location, if your stupid enough to do that it deserves to be taken from you
ride your bicycle to the movie theater and stash it behind a bush cause you have no bike lock to chain it to the bike stand. if its gone when you come back, its what you deserve for not taking the proper precautions
Yes. Perhaps. But the person who steals it is still a thief.
Am I allowed to say that ? |
Lygos
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Posted - 2005.11.16 02:34:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Lygos on 16/11/2005 02:34:01
Ore both is and is not Property.
Even if it is property, what are you gonna do about it?
You should take/defend the ore on the grounds that you will gain resources and they will lose. Everyone should laud the winning party in the ensuing days and months of conflict for being the more determined.
The actual act of usurpation has no moral significance whatsoever in EVE. When you are ready for the responsibility, you and yours may erect and enforce your own morality on the foundation of your own resolve.
"Everything I love is combustible." |
Skurlan
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Posted - 2005.11.16 02:46:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
by definition it is, theft is depriving someone of property belonging to them. I think it is the right step to add a risk factor to theft.
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Threefisted Olie
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:02:00 -
[49]
When does and astroid become property? If you mine a roid, is the ore yours both inside your hold and outside? If you leave the ore in space, is it still yours? How long does it stay yours? A hour, a day, or forever?
You have no right to mine the ore. Its not your roid, you don't own it. You've invested some labor, mining it. Does that labor mean you own the roid in its new form of ore?
If I painted all the roids green, would I own them? It took labor to paint the roid green, is that labor any different than the labor it took to convert the roid to ore? There is no astroid painters in the game, but it would still take labor to put a can next to the roid labeled "THIS ROCK IS MINE, GET YOUR OWN ROCK"
Jetcan property rights are vague. If i were in a 0.0 with permision from an alliance, and I grabbed a can, the Law would add some ventalation holes to my ship. Empire space, the law desn't care. The social aspects of taking a can do not matter, its not theft. You cannot "take the law into you own hands" in 1.0 and there is no law concerning picking up cans. Concord does not care and they are the Law in high sec.
Bad laws? Perhaps. Theft? Not unless the Law says so. Got a problem with it, write your represenitive, or become the Law yourself.
Anyone want to sum up John Locke's chapter on property for us? I lack the attention span to read anything with more depth than Maxim
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Vlodec
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:14:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Vlodec on 16/11/2005 04:15:34
Jesus.......
Actually you lack the brains to to read anything with more depth than Maxim
Am I allowed to say that ? |
Roham Tahkim
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:22:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Roham Tahkim on 16/11/2005 04:22:22
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Vlodec
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:42:00 -
[52]
I guess those who have nothing to say have no recourse but to belittle those who do.........even if we require several attempts to get it right.
Am I allowed to say that ? |
Threefisted Olie
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Posted - 2005.11.16 04:57:00 -
[53]
I was more interested in the opinion of the person that linked Locke's Second Treatise; I wasn't interested in reading a halfhearted flame from a messageboard warrior. More specifically, I was interested in Lygos's statement that "Ore both is and is not Property" I did not pick that up from my quick reading of the chapter on property.
Locke belived that converting the common things of nature to the uncommon granted title. He also stated that taking more from nature than a man could use was useless and dishonest. By Locke's definiton, we are all dishonest, and are granted a title to our dishonest ore when we jetcan it. All we do in eve is take more than we need, the entire system is based on power and greed for power.
None of this has much to do with jetcan mining. My question is how is ore both property and not property?
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Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:06:00 -
[54]
Originally by: sonofollo
putting youre hands in someones pockets or down someones pants can lead to serious problems
Or a date.
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Vlodec
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:07:00 -
[55]
Yes I think I see the problem. You're too concerned to impress and not concerned enough to resolve the issue.
I suggest you repeat the words "common sense" every time you feel the need to sound off this way. It will work. How long the cure requires depends on your age, integrity and intelligence.
Am I allowed to say that ? |
Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:09:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Armor Jack
Originally by: Rainmahn
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
You are either a moron or a griefer. When you take something that is not yours you are a thief. How complicated can that be?
that's a Real Live law, where does it say taking stuff from an unsecured container is illegal?
Not where I live. My car is unlocked, come take it (i am not giving you permission to), and I'll take it back from you with a baseball bat. We'll see what the courts say. (Here's a hint, they'll tell me good job and lock you up in addition to you already having been beaten)
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Clutch Cargo
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:15:00 -
[57]
If you stake a claim on public land, everything within your claim is yours. When you pull up to a roid that is in "public" space, you are defacto stacking a claim, therefore any ore you mine is yours.
This is the sticky part, CCP defines the rules here, not RL. In RL someone taking your ore would be a thief, in EVE CCP has to define that. Until now it has not been a crime, apparently after RMR, there will be a new sheriff in town.
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Malthros Zenobia
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:30:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Kaell Meynn
Not where I live. My car is unlocked, come take it (i am not giving you permission to), and I'll take it back from you with a baseball bat. We'll see what the courts say. (Here's a hint, they'll tell me good job and lock you up in addition to you already having been beaten)
Just curious, but where do you live? If it's in the US, your thief will be going away for grand theft auto, and you'll be facing charges of aggrivated assault if you 'take it back with a baseball bat' without being in any direct danger (ie: you hunt them down).
------------------------------------
Your Civilian Gatling Railgun perfectly strikes Choke Slam [CAIN], wrecking for 6.0 damage. |
Montague Zooma
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:41:00 -
[59]
This game is utterly amazing. Apparently, the only rule is "that which is not forbidden is mandatory".
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Vlodec
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Posted - 2005.11.16 05:41:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dak Hakin
If I see a container floating in space and it is not secure, I am going to check it. If it has ore, or strip miners, or loot, whatever, if there is nobody else around, I will probably take it. I dont think of it as criminal, I think of it as scavenging. Someone did not need something, well, I'll sell it to someone who does.
Now if there is someone in the area, I will either assume it belongs to them (loot, whatever) and ignore it, or ask if anyone belongs to the jet can. *shrug*
Very good. And entirely beside the point........I think.
Am I allowed to say that ? |
Kaell Meynn
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Posted - 2005.11.16 07:41:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
and you'll be facing charges of aggrivated assault if you 'take it back with a baseball bat' without being in any direct danger (ie: you hunt them down).
I meant take it back/stop him while he's taking it. Not hunting him down. You're allowed to defend your property with reasonable force. Additionally, if he fights back, his charges will go from theft/burglary to robery, and he'll be spending twice as much time in jail.
(this is not legal advice, consult a lawyer in your area for the laws that apply to you)
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Shugo Kazuma
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Posted - 2005.11.16 08:44:00 -
[62]
It's theft, it's pretty simple on a moral ground. But EVE isn't like that, and "in the future" as it were, morals and ideals can easily change from what they are today.
I haven't had the time to test out this new flagging system, but from what I've heard, if you take something that isn't "yours" they (being themselves, anyone in their Player Corp, or anyone in their gang from what I gather) get 15 mins to retaliate against your theft. Heard various things about if they open fire you can then blast them out of the sky without being concored too though.
Ideally I think it would have a timer on it so if the can isn't picked up for 30-45 mins or something it becomes "unclaimed" and free game for any scavengers without possible retribution.
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Mimio
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Posted - 2005.11.16 09:01:00 -
[63]
if you jettison money on the ground in real be sure that somebody pickups without any problems with law. So ore thiefing is not crime, but just amoral action.
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Farcus
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Posted - 2005.11.16 12:52:00 -
[64]
Taking cans from someone who is drop can mining is theft, its not really that complicated.
I haven't read the upcomming patch notes yet but from comments here it sounds like if someone steals your can they'll get flagged and you can attack them without worrying about concord. Is this correct? I can just see me hiding a cruiser behind a roid, dropping a can in some macro miners can pile and waiting for some can thief to take it so I can pop out and devistate him... If this goes into effect I predict there will be quite a bit of baiting going on
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Kurren
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Posted - 2005.11.16 15:30:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Mimio
if you jettison money on the ground in real be sure that somebody pickups without any problems with law. So ore thiefing is not crime, but just amoral action.
My car was broken into and the guys got away with it... does that mean it wasn't a crime too? Shoplifters get away with things all the time... does that make that legal? Hell, lots of people get away with *****and murder... does that mean those aren't crimes as well?
Taking something that is not yours is theft. Whether or not the owner is around. If he's not around though... he won't know who took... so steal it with no consequences... but if he IS around and you blatently steal it... now he can shoot you if he so chooses... that's all.
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I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Wolfgang Speer
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Posted - 2005.11.16 16:23:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Jenny Spitfire
What is theft?
It is taking an item from someone that claims that particular item "belongs" to him. Which ofcource is a lie, because how can anything "belong" to anyone?!
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Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.11.16 16:48:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 16/11/2005 16:55:11
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
Edit: To answer the question: Yes, it is theft.
The following is for fools who make serious arguments that no theft is occuring:
Time to utterly destroy the moron arguments again
Moron Argument #1: CCP's FAC entry on theft states that ore thieves will not be punished by CCP, and will not be punished by Concord, thus no theft is occuring.
Proof that Moron Argument #1 is stupid: The same FAC entry also states that ore thieves have "a reduced sense of right and wrong". Hmmm, wonder why they say that????
What CCP "IS" saying: Ore theft will not be punished by CCP, as it is not "harrassment" and is not an "exploit". It will not be punished by Concord, because it is not a Concord punishable offense. Ore Thieves do, however, have "a reduced sense of right and wrong", because they are stealing. All very simple, at least for folks who don't read selectively.
Moron argument #2: Jet cans are a sort of trash can, and if you put ore in one, it means you threw it away, and no longer own it. Even the word "jetison" means "to discard, or throw away".
As moron argument #2 talks of trash cans, and words, so will I.
I use trash cans now and then in my work. Mostly for training, although I have used them a few times in real incidents where lab tests latter showed no lethal agents to be present. I train folks to use protective equipment to survive the use of Chemical, Biological and nuclear material. I also train them on using a decon line to get out of contaminated gear. I use trash cans to contain discarded equipment items. Folks using the line are even told to "discard" items into the trash cans.
God help the moron that trys to take from one of my trash cans without my permission. He'd be arrested and convicted of theft if it was a training exercise. If it was a real incident, he could be shot and killed. It would be a real laugh to see him trying the trash can argument.
My argument is extreme, but it also "proves" my point: Just because something is jetisoned, or discarded into a trash can, does NOT mean that it is not theft to take it, nor does it mean the person that put it into the trash can has given up ownership.
More mundain examples work just as well. Janitors use trash cans and brooms. Just because a janitor puts his broom in a trash can does not mean he no longer owns it, not does it mean it is not theft to take it.
A trash can IS a container. If it is "in use", then the user still has ownership. An abandoned trash can (or jet can) less obvious. There one can make the argument that the item has truly been discarded. Not a solid argument, but not an utterly stupid one either.
Truth be told, I don't worry about ore thieves much, nor do I care about them. Their existance and thefts are profoundly boring to me.
But to state that no theft is occuring when an ore thief steals is too stupid for words. Its the sort of glaring, shreaking stupidity that must be stepped on and kicked. Steal ore if you must, I don't care. Jokingly claim that you are a Mining Inspector. I like that, good role play. But don't try and make a serious argument that no theft is occuring.
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Kim Chee
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Posted - 2005.11.16 16:59:00 -
[68]
PLEASE, CCP.... give us an option to jettison things as anonymous or unowned.
That solves the issue of "theft". If the can has my name on it, it's mine. You can steal it, but if I can catch you, I get to try and take it out of your hide.
If I have stuff I don't want (loot from rats, lower grade ore I mined but jettisoned because I wanted more room for something else)... I'd like to jettison it so that a passing n00b might come along and make use of it. I'd like them to not get flagged as a thief for doing so.
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Mimio
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Posted - 2005.11.16 17:27:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kurren
Originally by: Mimio
if you jettison money on the ground in real be sure that somebody pickups without any problems with law. So ore thiefing is not crime, but just amoral action.
My car was broken into and the guys got away with it... does that mean it wasn't a crime too? Shoplifters get away with things all the time... does that make that legal? Hell, lots of people get away with *****and murder... does that mean those aren't crimes as well?
When you JETTISON(ask somebody precise meaning of this word) into SPACE you LOST this somebody. ANUBODY could pickup. ANYBODY. Point. In the Real World, in Eve, in Lineage, in WoW.
Use secure contaigner to save your properties.
Can you prove that ore in unnamed cont is yours? NO. YOU CANT. Bye.
Can you prove that broken car is yours? YES. YOU CAN. Welcome to police.
Quote:
Taking something that is not yours is theft.
Yes, using water in the river is the theft according to you?
Or picking up empty bottles from the garbage cont?
Do you know that Court of US set rulings that jettisoned thing fo not belongs to you anymore?
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Mimio
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Posted - 2005.11.16 17:28:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 16/11/2005 16:55:11
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
Edit: To answer the question: Yes, it is theft.
No, it is not theft. It is good deal, you are dropping, goodman is picking up.
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Sassinak
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Posted - 2005.11.16 17:38:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Sassinak on 16/11/2005 17:39:28
Originally by: Deja Thoris
Originally by: Sassinak
This argument has been goin on since eve was released nearly 3 years ago...
Answer hasnt changed either.
ITS NOT THEFT IF YOU LEAVE YOUR JETTISONED ORE IN AN UNSECURED CONTAINER.
PEOPLE WILL ONLY COME ALONG TO COLLECT YOUR GARBAGE
USE SECURED CONTAINERS
THX
Why are they implemeting flagging for jetcans then?
Could it be that you are WRONG?
(sorry - had to)
Apparently I am wrong then if thats what they are doing.
Shame though that they gave in to carebears *****ing about it. Lazy players, they made secure containers for em over a year ago.
Lazy players. Kinda fun taking ore too.
Sass
Arcane Technologies |
Tamora
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Posted - 2005.11.16 17:58:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
lick my cont
http://img446.imageshack.us/img446/8854/***dar25xa.jpg |
Kurren
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Posted - 2005.11.16 18:17:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Mimio
Originally by: Kurren
Originally by: Mimio
if you jettison money on the ground in real be sure that somebody pickups without any problems with law. So ore thiefing is not crime, but just amoral action.
My car was broken into and the guys got away with it... does that mean it wasn't a crime too? Shoplifters get away with things all the time... does that make that legal? Hell, lots of people get away with *****and murder... does that mean those aren't crimes as well?
When you JETTISON(ask somebody precise meaning of this word) into SPACE you LOST this somebody. ANUBODY could pickup. ANYBODY. Point. In the Real World, in Eve, in Lineage, in WoW.
Use secure contaigner to save your properties.
Can you prove that ore in unnamed cont is yours? NO. YOU CANT. Bye.
Can you prove that broken car is yours? YES. YOU CAN. Welcome to police.
My car was parked on the street. The owner (myself) was nowhere near it. I couldn't prove it was mine at the time. When you jettison a can... it gets tagged, proving who the can belongs to. Stealing is stealing, mama shoulda taught you that. Give me some more argument to tear apart please.
Originally by: Mimio
Originally by: Sergeant Spot
Edited by: Sergeant Spot on 16/11/2005 16:55:11
Originally by: Armor Jack
taking stuff from an unsecured container how is that theft?
Edit: To answer the question: Yes, it is theft.
No, it is not theft. It is good deal, you are dropping, goodman is picking up.
Simply a lack of morals on your part then. Though, I will agree that if nobody is around the container I'll scoop the contents up, but... if that person is working dilligently (that word means "hard working" for the m0r0ns ) next to the can, it's theirs. You can tell it's theirs... also cause it's CORP TAGGED. You choose to go up to it and take from it. You choose to steal. Bottom line. There is no justification as to how this act is "morally correct" other than to say that you lack morals to begin with.
************************************************
I'm not a pirate, I'm a business-extremist... |
Sergeant Spot
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Posted - 2005.11.16 18:33:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Mimio
Do you know that Court of US set rulings that jettisoned thing fo not belongs to you anymore?
Oh, please please please come emergency response site (civil or military, does not matter) and take stuff from the trash cans used to hold things and use that argument.
Pretty please with suger.....
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Clutch Cargo
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Posted - 2005.11.16 18:37:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Clutch Cargo on 16/11/2005 18:38:43
Quote:
When you JETTISON(ask somebody precise meaning of this word) into SPACE you LOST this somebody.
I have already responded to this but I guess I will have another go.
I get really annoyed when people try to use dictionary definitions for stuff in this game. WTF does bookmark mean?
Next, when miners "jettison" their ore, their intent is clearly NOT TO DISGARD IT!! Any moron can easily know this. So we can go on and on about the word "jettison", but it is only a label on a menu used to describe the fact that some item is exiting the hold of a ship. It is not descriptive of what miners are doing with ore. This is proved by the fact that:
 The miner is sitting right there collecting even more of the ore that you are claiming they no longer want. WTF possible purpose could be served by spending time mining stuff that they don't want?
I have to say that this is one of the dumbest thread questions I have ever read. It's a sad state of affairs when people try to make valid arguments that it is ok to take something that someone is clearly working hard for simply because it happens to be sitting next to them in a can.
READ THIS:
It is sitting in a jet can because CCP simply refuses to make secure can viable for mining. The biggest secure can is 3900m3, which I do in one cycle on my covetor. You cannot secure them in systems above .7 and and you cannot secure them 5k from anything. This means that you either have to have a dedicated hauler or you have to return to the station and unload after each cycle. Talk about ******* tedious.
If CCP changed the word "jettison" to "personal can" would it stop ore thievery? NO. Because there is always some set of idiots that thinks that because they have the ability to take something, it is theirs.
So stop trying to define "jettison" cans based on the dictionary application of what the label says, because it doesn't apply. Anyone with even the slightest bit of "home training" could see that.
EDIT:
Home Training = brought up within the confines of a civilized family and not raised by a pack of wolves.
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Lygos
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Posted - 2005.11.16 19:05:00 -
[76]
Now don't forget, if you really go for all that classical liberal claptrap that Locke put out, don't forget the Lockean Provisos.
1)One must leave as much and as Good what we invest of our labor.
2)The moral and efficient justification of property hinges on the aggregate common Good procured. This is where things get "tricky." Be careful of "democratic sons," but do not think ye can rid ye self of them so easily.
And remember, mastery of these concepts is the first step to catching up with the cutting edge of 17th century political economy.
rabblerabblerabblerabblerabblerabblerabble
Targetting Sig Variance -- "Everything I love is combustible." |
Raptornas
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Posted - 2005.11.16 19:29:00 -
[77]
Property is Theft,
Therefor theft is property
From this we can learn that whatever I take is mine
[/communism~anarchism]
___________
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Unknown Subject
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Posted - 2005.11.16 21:51:00 -
[78]
yes it is theft. but think of it this way, you leave your car parked on the street with the keys in the ignition and the engine running, someone steals it. its theft, but you are still a moron for leaving it open to theft.
SECURE CANS FTW!
dont moan about ore theives, i mine into jet cans and i expect the odd theft from time to time. it comes with the job. you just have to have a fast hauler. i mine on my own and with instas i can load up, dock, drop off and be back at the can before my alt has the next load. please, people, stop whining. its not hard (fair enough not everyone has 2 accounts) so learn a little from your mistakes.
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Wanoah
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Posted - 2005.11.16 22:05:00 -
[79]
Same old tired arguments here as expected. Haven't read an ore theft thread for a few weeks. Nice to see that some things never change.
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Drunk Driver
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Posted - 2005.11.16 22:10:00 -
[80]
I like these kinds of threads. You take something that is clearly wrong and ask if it's wrong. Then somebody screams and yells about how it's wrong while somebody else aggravates them so they'll keep screaming.
(Farts and falls down laughing...)
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