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Lygos
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Posted - 2005.11.18 18:45:00 -
[61]
I was going to chime in about the ions, but that'd be repetitive.
The Raven isn't going to be able to hold all that much in the way of cap charges AND Torps, so you just need to be able to outlast. Go for more moderate damage, and tank for as long as possible. i.e. ditch a damage modifier.
Scrambler is gimping your setup too.
Remember that SiSi setups are always unrealistic at best. There's far less stab usage there for one thing, and tackling equipment in general.
You won't often find Ravens and other ships that are as strong as they are there ingame.
Targetting Sig Variance -- "Everything I love is combustible." |
Dionysus Davinci
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Posted - 2005.11.18 19:19:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Dionysus Davinci on 18/11/2005 19:20:12
 Originally by: Lygos
The Raven isn't going to be able to hold all that much in the way of cap charges AND Torps,
You must have not seen the memo, not only is the charges getting smaller and tanks even better while a raven's weapons use no core while the mega continues to have a lack luster core.
A Booster will be absoulty neccessary next patch for the mega for those power hungry blasters, so will it for amarr ships but like they have to worry about ammo too 
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Grut
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Posted - 2005.11.18 19:37:00 -
[63]
closish range vs a raven 7 425's + 7 dmg are probably more effective then blasters.... thats messed up
Mostly harmless |
Earthan
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Posted - 2005.11.18 20:06:00 -
[64]
Jedi guardian you miss the point.
The raven can hit with torps over a long long distance.
A blaster ship can only hit very close wich is is a huge handicap and its why its a fair and its how they should be if you read the description , they shou;d be the most destructive weapon.
So if a ravewn starting close can kill a megathron fitted for close range with equal skills its wrong.
I do agreee large blasters are to weak compared to their drawbacks.
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A solution to gank/to much dmg.Plz read and reply.Make Eve more tactical!!
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Nafri
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Posted - 2005.11.18 20:07:00 -
[65]
raven on SISI are atm very hard to beat in a close range fight, thy just tank you easily for some minutes 
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Earthan
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Posted - 2005.11.18 20:10:00 -
[66]
ah also raven can choose and dmg type , you cant choose with blasters at all
*****************************
A solution to gank/to much dmg.Plz read and reply.Make Eve more tactical!!
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Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2005.11.18 20:38:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Guardian Alpha on 18/11/2005 20:38:30
Quote:
So if a ravewn starting close can kill a megathron fitted for close range with equal skills its wrong.
That's situation, however. Under the assumption that the Raven is fitted for long-range use to begin with, once the megathron gets within range again another variable goes into play. Is the Raven set for ganking or is it set for tanking? If that long-range raven is using resistances to negate the incoming damage if a close-range ship gets within optimal, then the close range ship needs to find a new tactic.
I have no doubt in my mind that a Raven fitted for torps and tanking is going to eliminate a megathron that has only a focus on damage alone. Granted, the raven can do massive amounts of damage while also being a decent tank and that is what needs to be addressed.
Again, it comes down to the same thing. Whether a module is gimped or not it's still going to require the pilot to be more than the ship he flies. I've found one of the easiest ways for a megathron to get the upperhand of a Raven is to preplan the attack, have someone mark the spot where the raven is for a close warp-in, slap on a few ECM jammers and go for a balance of ECM, damage, with tanking in secondary. The megathron is going to be able to safely engage the raven with anti-matter ammo while the raven is spending time shield tanking without releasing damage. (granted, even this idea is situational and can be counter-defended like all tactics). The point is, plan ahead, don't rely on just one tactic. If that one tactic fails, such as attempting to outdamage your opponent and they end up tanking specifically to your damage type, you need another Ace up your sleeve to be able to counter his counter.
Tactics are important and they exist beyond the common pilot.
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"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
- Charles Darwin |
Hobblin I
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Posted - 2005.11.18 20:42:00 -
[68]
People like Jedi Guardian are talking without any knowledge about fitting blasterthrons. So, I would not put any merit in his words.
Anyhow, the neutron blasters are allright, I would much rather see a reduction in fitting reqs of Ion tech II blasters. A blasterthron should be able to fit 7 ions, 1 NOS, mwd/web/scram/injector with 2 large reps 3 hardners (named) and 2 mag stabs without using cpu/grid mods.
The Raven and for that matter any ship that can fit a full tank and then fit dmg mods in the lows will invariably beat any ship that requires all its lows for tanking while having to use the mids for SPEED/SCRAMBLE/CAPINJECTION.
There are no mid slot dmg mods, there are no mid slot cpu boosting mods. In the end the blasterthron is stuck with less cpu, requirement of mods that most every other ship doesn't need (cap injection and mwd). And 2 extra mid slots that are nearly impossible to fit when the cpu is already running at its lowest.
Why do Modal Mega Neutrons have lower cpu reqs than tech II ions? It just seems pointless.
The best setup I could come up with
7 ion IIs
mwd/web/scram/cap injector (all nameD)
2 large named reps
3 named hardners
1 co pro II
1 mag stab II.
1 hi slot is free cuz it cant fit anything (maybe a med neutralizer).
That setup got wiped out by a 800 tech II, shield tanked, gyrostabbed Tempest.
It would also get beat by a EW fitted armor tanked or ew fitted ganka tempest.
The same applies towards a shield tanked ganka raven OR a ew fitted ganka raven.
This is just showing that the shield tank/ganka setup ships have an edge over every other close range ship in game.
Only way to beat them was fitting 7 neutron IIs, 4 tech II steel plates (absolutely pointless in real world fighting) and 3 mag stab IIs..
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Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2005.11.18 20:44:00 -
[69]
Quote:
People like Jedi Guardian are talking without any knowledge about fitting blasterthrons.
So because you disagree with my advice you are going to assume that I have never flown a specific ship class? That's certainly not a wise thing to do, but your call. I left the "I don't agree with your experience so you are an idiot and I must be correct" back in my childhood and would appreciate you offer me the same courtesy.
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"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
- Charles Darwin |
Lygos
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Posted - 2005.11.18 20:50:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Dionysus Davinci
...not only is the charges getting smaller and tanks even better while a raven's weapons use no core...
A Booster will be absoulty neccessary next patch..
I believe the size on them was about halved. I suspect a booster is going to become necessary on just about every setup that tanks. Previously it was 1m3 per 10units of capacitor if memory serves. On Amarr BS and cruisers anyway, I've noticed that its not too hard to die even with a full capacitor. 
I haven't looked at torps in a very, very long while, but it seems they are smaller than I remember.
I've always felt that battleships deserve cargo holds that are several times that of either cruisers or frigates. But I don't think such holds should serve to carry ore or commodities at all without a special and limiting container.
Dependence on charges is a good direction for the game, as it will lead to adequate, non-infinite tanks. The failure of infinitanks will provide the developing space CCP needs to make important changes elsewhere.
Targetting Sig Variance -- "Everything I love is combustible." |
darth solo
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:00:00 -
[71]
I had a fight with a a guy a wee bit back, he was using a mega with neutron cannons/nos a named rep/ hardeners and a plate....
so maybe u want to try something like that?..
Its also HIGHLY possible the guy u were fighting was fitted with dual kinetic and thermal hardeners... he could also have been fitted with with high end named stuff...
was he some1 you knew?, was he honest enough to confirm his fitting?. was he fitted to counter your ship?.. so many questions and so many reasons that you may have lost against him...
Some of the celes guys are still using blasters on their Megas and i see nothing wrong with them at all, in fact they love them.
d solo.
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dalman
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:02:00 -
[72]
Originally by: TomB
Few missile types (Torpedoes in particular) take up to much space and will get improved.
Hence the raven/scorp will work just fine with setups using cap charges.
That's not really the point of the topic though. The problem is that the blasterthron is gimped compared to all other battleships (well, not the typhoon, but I'm expecting that one to enjoy the next patch).
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:10:00 -
[73]
I dont think that very many ravens sport all seige pvp loadout anymore. I believe the trend line has went decidely towards an all cruise in highs loadout to offer some flexibility in dealing with cruisers.
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dalman
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:24:00 -
[74]
Originally by: darth solo
I had a fight with a a guy a wee bit back, he was using a mega with neutron cannons/nos a named rep/ hardeners and a plate....
so maybe u want to try something like that?..
Its also HIGHLY possible the guy u were fighting was fitted with dual kinetic and thermal hardeners... he could also have been fitted with with high end named stuff...
was he some1 you knew?, was he honest enough to confirm his fitting?. was he fitted to counter your ship?.. so many questions and so many reasons that you may have lost against him...
Some of the celes guys are still using blasters on their Megas and i see nothing wrong with them at all, in fact they love them.
d solo.
How long is a wee bit back?
But it's fully normal he lost to the raven. With just a t1 hardeners that's 70% kinetic resistance... so there's not much actual damage left from the blasters. And a raven can boost a large ammount/second to keep that up some time. Much longer than a blasterthron can take the torpdoes, and certainly with the crappy tank that comes with fitting neutrons.
I understand they love them. We all do. Blasterthrons are pure combat, the most intense you can get with the biggest ship class. Once you go in there's no turning back, it's make or brake.
However, those corpmates of yours are all oldtime players with high ammounts of skillpoints and vast combat experience. All blasterthron pilots are. In most situations they have an advantage on their opponent in that, and can make the right decisions.
The point in me saying that is that their good performance is purely a result of the player, not the ship, and they would have scored at least as good with any other ships had they specialised in that instead.
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:29:00 -
[75]
Quote:
The point in me saying that is that their good performance is purely a result of the player, not the ship
/signed and grammy given
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"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
- Charles Darwin |
Nybbas
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:30:00 -
[76]
Why hasnt anyone commented on him comparing tachyons to 425s and 1400's when he should be comparing mega beams to them? ANYWAYS compare a tech 2 neutron to a tech 2 ions base dps, the t2 neutron does 25.58 base dps with am while the tech 2 ion does 24 dps with am... its like a 6.7 percent difference if i did my math correctly... ht ion takes 66 cpu while the neutron takes 72, and then the neutron takes 500 more pg. fitting 7 ions will save you enough cpu to fit another damage mod, which in turn would put its dps up and over the neutron... so whats the point?
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Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:36:00 -
[77]
Quote:
Why hasnt anyone commented on him comparing tachyons to 425s and 1400's when he should be comparing mega beams to them?
Because the origonal topic involving gun types, for those that did not read the thread from top to bottom, stemmed from clarification of what qualified as a rack of "strongest guns" (ie. used the most cpu/grid). My initial memory was that neutrons used more than 450mms and thus could be likened to tacys in their PG/CPU usage being the most out of all weaponry for that race.
It had nothing to do with damage type, range, or similar. Just fitting requirements.
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"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
- Charles Darwin |
Luc Boye
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:36:00 -
[78]
All the raven has to do is to fit 1 tracking disruptor and bye bye blasterthron, you can **** the setups and suggest "faction mods" as much as you like.
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Nybbas
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:37:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Nybbas on 18/11/2005 21:38:25
yeah guardian, but a tachyon is a gun in its own class pritty much, it would be akin to having a 600mm railgun, or a 1800mm howitzer
*edit* tachyons do suck though, and thats mainly because their fitting reqs which are huge dont outweigh their bonus in damage etc.
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Naughty Boy
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:38:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Naughty Boy on 18/11/2005 21:42:44
Originally by: Nybbas
Why hasnt anyone commented on him comparing tachyons to 425s and 1400's when he should be comparing mega beams to them? ANYWAYS compare a tech 2 neutron to a tech 2 ions base dps, the t2 neutron does 25.58 base dps with am while the tech 2 ion does 24 dps with am... its like a 6.7 percent difference if i did my math correctly... ht ion takes 66 cpu while the neutron takes 72, and then the neutron takes 500 more pg. fitting 7 ions will save you enough cpu to fit another damage mod, which in turn would put its dps up and over the neutron... so whats the point?
Link.
Even Electron t2 with 1 damage mod outdamage Neutron t2 @ 2-4km. Neutrons seem only good if you plan to fight outside web range, using the increased range they provide.
Sincerly Yours, The Naughty Boy.
---
Spreadsheet - Damage @ range. |
Porro
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:38:00 -
[81]
The raven on sisi atm is very powerful, a combination of a rocksolid shield tankand the ability to deal excellent damage (which it can do up to about 40k effectively).
There was nothing majorly wrong with his fit, and imo there isnt a way to kill a (new) raven with a blasterthron.
Reguarding blasters they could use a buff in damage 10k is our optimal we should at least get rewarded for getting into it. Oh and for the people that say that ccp only balance whole classes of weapons; last time that hybrids where looked at small guns only got a cap reduction not fitting, unlike the others :P
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Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:40:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Guardian Alpha on 18/11/2005 21:40:13
Quote:
yeah guardian, but a tachyon is a gun in its own class pritty much, it would be akin to having a 600mm railgun, or a 1800mm howitzer
Oh, don't get me wrong. I completely agree with you. But because I am at work I do not have the flexability to pop open the stats window and compare PG/CPU requirements across the board. It was applied to the statement of "what ship doesn't have a hard time fitting it's strongest (ie. power hungry) weaponry while trying to keep a decent tank?"
Was only using tacys in that sense, no worries 
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"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
- Charles Darwin |
dalman
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:45:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Cummilla
I dont think that very many ravens sport all seige pvp loadout anymore. I believe the trend line has went decidely towards an all cruise in highs loadout to offer some flexibility in dealing with cruisers.
So that guy was dealing damage at a little higher rate than "normal" in pvp.
That's not a valid argument.
A normal blasterthron can't deal with smaller ships.
Yes, it will 'OMGWTFBBQ' a lone cruiser. But it stands no chance in making that cruiser stay and not run unless it want to fight. And that always means it's more than 1 and they're gonna break the tank.
Using a cruise missile raven fitted to "offer some flexibility in dealing with cruisers" in this comparison is the same thing as using a thron with some medium guns fitted in or a 3 sensor booster gank thron intended to one-shot cruisers. They don't belong in actual BSvsBS combat.
On a side note, the really sad part with me saying that ^^ is that a blasterthron with some medium guns mixed in may actually outperform a normal blasterthron in BSvsBS PvP. Which again proves the point; L blasters suck.
Drink up, shoot in. Let the beating begin.
Distributor of pain. Your loss becomes my gain...
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Scalor Valentis
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:46:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Guardian Alpha
Like every other ship, a full rack of the strongest guns requires sacraficing low-slots for RCUs to make that layout possible. The mega is no different.
o rly?
my tempest works just fine with full racks on 800mms kthx...
no grid mods what-so-ever needet
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Cummilla
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:50:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Luc Boye
All the raven has to do is to fit 1 tracking disruptor and bye bye blasterthron, you can **** the setups and suggest "faction mods" as much as you like.
hmmm
1 or 2? Will 1 TD really cut damage down that much? Very thought provoking idea though.
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Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:52:00 -
[86]
Edited by: Guardian Alpha on 18/11/2005 21:54:28
Quote:
no grid mods what-so-ever needet
Amazing, you can fit all of those 1400mms? Wait, you said 800mm.
My reference, as stated already if you read the entire thread before replying, were the guns that used the most PG/CPU per race, not limiting the racial gun type down to close-range only. The 1400mm would cut it for Minmatar.
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"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
- Charles Darwin |
Scalor Valentis
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Posted - 2005.11.18 21:58:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Guardian Alpha
Edited by: Guardian Alpha on 18/11/2005 21:54:28
Quote:
no grid mods what-so-ever needet
Amazing, you can fit all of those 1400mms? Wait, you said 800mm.
i can fit all 1400mms and 6 dmg mods and EW medslots
so yeah 
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Guardian Alpha
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Posted - 2005.11.18 22:03:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Guardian Alpha on 18/11/2005 22:03:58
Tempest with engineering V has 19375 PG. 1400mm takes 3250 PG x 6 total = 19500
19375 - 19500 = -125 PG
You would be 125 powergrid negative with that fitting, not including launchers, nosses, repairers, or anything else. If you add the advanced skill for weapon-specific powergrid reduction you *may* be able to fit it, yes But like most ships and their most power-consuming weapons, it's incredibly difficult (or in this case, without advanced skills) impossible without RCUs.
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"It is not the strongest of the species that survive, nor the most intelligent, but the one most responsive to change."
- Charles Darwin |
Uggs386
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Posted - 2005.11.18 22:06:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Nybbas
Edited by: Nybbas on 18/11/2005 21:38:25
yeah guardian, but a tachyon is a gun in its own class pritty much, it would be akin to having a 600mm railgun, or a 1800mm howitzer
*edit* tachyons do suck though, and thats mainly because their fitting reqs which are huge dont outweigh their bonus in damage etc.
tachyon 2's are too hard to fit and take up too much cap even with my bs lvl 5 and controlled burst 5. Tachyon's are out right gimped. Yeah you could fit them on an apoc but apoc doesnt get any ship bonus to damage or rof so it gonan be **** dmage output compare dot any other long range gun, 425 rails, and 1400 howitzers. And geddon simply doesnt have enough grid, you would need 2 t2 reactor controll to fit 7x tachyon 2's. Not to mention the damage mod is absolutely **** on a tachyon compared with the other long range weapons. So no one should be complainign about long range weapons except for us ammarian users.
/emote grumbles.
had to change sig cause im no longer nubsies alliance. Someone make me something cool and I will love you forever. |
Nyphur
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Posted - 2005.11.18 22:11:00 -
[90]
Hold on, you were using a microwarpdrive to close in on the raven and you expected not to be eaten alive? Your sig radius must've been huge! get a buddy in a covert ops to get 15km behind him and warp to him if you want to get close. Otherwise, you can use drones hit hit him before you get within weaposn rance and just use a good afterburner.
Also, what type of missiles was he using? Did he tell you before-hand? Because he sure as hell knew he was tanking for kinetic and thermal.
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